Please join our discussion on all aspects of narcissism; ask us questions or offer your own personal, hard-won advice.
This is not a group therapy page to get your angries out however and all comments here will be read before they are approved. I am opening up this page as the first of hopefully more discussion blog pages to create a safe space for our subscribers to offer each other compassion and support.
This also is NOT a place for debate but somewhere to come and receive support without judgement or aggression and comments that do not respect this will not be approved.
If you have an idea for a new page topic please just let us know in your post. I will drop in from time to time and hope I can answer your questions as I am needed but primarily give this space to you to meet others who may be having similar challenges as you.
Welcome if you are new here and please know that you are not alone!
Your friend Kim (-:
Dear Kim
You know what really did it for me, was your poem “Song of the male narcissist”! That really made me realise how helpless he was. It also made me realise that God put us together for me to assist him in managing himself.
I have always thrived on a challenge. And I find this a huge challenge to get our relationship on track.
I still lose control emotionally but it is much better since I’ve read your advice. I tend to be an optimist but sometimes this drags me down real low. Since I read the “song” it just gave me such insight in what and how my husband thinks. I am really grateful to you for helping me the past few months. I have been to see phsyciatrists as well and they want my husband to see them but ofcourse he won’t go.
He just does not realise what he is doing wrong.
You have made me much stronger and I realise that this is the only way I will be able to help our relationship.
Ofcourse what make it so difficult for me is that he does not phycically abuse me, he has never been unfaithful in the 37 years of marriage. Its just the verbal abuse.
He has stopped this with me but still criticises our children – not in their presence but to me. This is the one thing that still infuriates me. They want to love their father but he still keeps them at a distance and ofcourse will find any reason to substantiate his actions.
We are expecting our first two grandchildren within days and my daughter mentioned that she will never leave her child alone with his grandfather – in fear that he might say something negative to the child and thus cause emotional damage like he did when she was a child. This really hurt me badly.
Have you got any advice on father-children relationships?
Grownup children, that is.
Today I realise that I have always protected them against his moods when they were young and still living with us.
This ofcourse caused that I gave in to his moods just to keep the peace – which was very unhealthy.
I must add that I have three wonderful, well mannered, self-supporting children. Eldest, boy and 18 months later I had twins – boy and a girl. The twin boy is gay and is living with his partner ever since they met after school. They’ve been together for 10 years. Two wonderfully well-balanced loving boys.
The fact that they are such wonderful children is because of their father’s strict parenting – for which I am very greatful. They all live near to us in the same suburb and we see each other at least once a week.
Hoping to hear from you.
Regards
Madge
I have left my husband of 20 years and only found this site after leaving. He has now found a new love from the Phillipines via the internet. After reading about a narcissist this fits him to a tee. I have gone through hell and never knew why until now. This is yet another affair from the internet the last woman moved here and the affair lasted almost 3 years. He lives down the street from me so occasionaly he stills upsets my life. He has made me feel ugly old and very depressed. Nothing I do was ever good enough and as always the blame is always on me. I receive horrible texts from him and constant battering as how no good I am. He lies about everything and tells everyone how horrible I am but yet comes around only to tell me he loves me. There is nothing he hasn’t done to me to hurt me. I am an emotional wreck and don’t know how to handle this. He sends his new woman expensive presents while not even caring if I have food. My job moved to Mexico and he told me I couldn’t afford him anymore. He is on disability and hasn’t worked in years and it was totally up to me to do everything, yards, cars, bills just everything. He is so nice to everyone but me what can I do? I can’t take this anymore I am at the end of my rope. His ol girlfriend is paying all his expensives while he dotes on the new one. He is definitely in love with this new one and it’s like I never existed except he wants me to go out to dinner or have sex than leave me for her. He says he is moving to the Phillipines to be with her supposedly. He tells me to leave so he can talk to her on the computer everything is so unfair please I need help ASAP I just can’t take this anymore. I know he will show up at my door again and I need the strength to send him away. There was not one thing that I read about narcissist behavior that didn’t fit him.
Hi KIm,
After much anguish I separated form my NPD husband one year ago.After that he began exhibiting some extremely bizarre behaviour including hiding my ncar from me for 4 months and lying to me about it( I finally found abandoned in a car repair workshop)and many other weird things followed.
I thought after 25 years I had done all I could to make the unworkable work. I planned to lick my wounds and heal myself and to keep moving forward and maybe find a healthier relationship. Trouble is we have stayed in close contact and are somewhat enmeshed.I have little interest in other men. I feel myself drawn back to him and the relationship. He is a highly intelligent and successful man and does have many good qualities and is the father of my children. My friends who know what I have been through will think I have lost my mind.
I am fearful of going through divorce and know that it will be very ugly and he will punish me. That is not a good reason to stay but I don’t feel strong enough to take the hard road especially as I genuinely like him but my love has been sorely tested.
Hello,
My story is way too long to tell in detail, but I’ll just summarize by saying that I’ve been married to a man who, last year was diagnosed as NPD. Our counselor did not diagnose him to himself, but to me on the phone behind his back. She knew that he would not accept the diagnosis, but she wanted me to know that what I was dealing with was exactly what I thought.
I’ve been married for 22 years, have 3 children by him and one from a previous relationship. I have a granddaughter as well.
My husband’s narcissism manifests in his finding worth only in what he can do with his hands…building, tearing down, rennovating houses and other structures. His father put him down all his life, so my husband subconsciously works to please his father every day of his life.
He cannot handle any form of criticism and will not take blame or anything even if he’s caught doing it. He goes through the same patterned defense mechanisms, no matter what the situation.
He will go from denying he did something, to giving an excuse for doing it, to getting angry that you noticed he was doing it…anything but admit “yes you’re right. I did that. I’m sorry.” Being sorry means being “vulnerable” to him. Sometimes this gets really annoying because it’s childish.
I think he’s getting worse as he ages, but most of the time he’s out working somewhere. He will probably work physically till his body can’t move anymore, and then he will be homebound and I will have to care for him or put him in an assisted living facility or something…I don’t know, but it’s not been easy. There has been a lot of abuse of the first 2 children and of me physically, but I left him several times during those things, we got counseling, and now, I pretty much pick my battles and do what I can to not “push his buttons.”
For the most part, it has worked well.
I also have a hobby of making Psychological Youtubes about Narcissism and other topics. These are free and are my way of getting the information out, so that people going through this will not feel so alone or crazy.
~Laura
in five years of knowing my husband and 4 years of marriage he has left countless times and had to be asked to leave more than 15 times. he has been arrested and he has walked out – but he regfers to all of the incidents as him being ‘thrown out’.
he exahusts me with his attitude of total blamelessness (of himself)BUT he adores me and loves me in between leaving me to cope with all responsibility and all upset when he is ‘thrown out’ (usually due to violence or verbal abuse)
I would love to say WE have worked at it – but in fact mainly I have worked at it! He does respond to me being assertive etc NOT angry and upset – I know Kyms approach works and I am speaking with my church (love of God finally gave me some self esteem)and my husband and me have got the possibility fo a great future. I am based in Cotswolds (UK) if anyone wants to speak to me directly.
This is to Lana Grammer, Lana my heart goes out to you. I understand all you are saying and if I can be so bold as to say I understand what you are feeling. I have dealt with my narcissist for 29 years. Lana, if you could read what you wrote from someone else’s eyes, you would never want or allow that person to continue accepting the treatment that you are allowing. I am saying this badly. You have left him, as I have left mine before finding this site. But the principles that Kim teaches are still effective. He won’t respect your allowing him to keep abusing you. How ironic this is, but you need to put up boundaries. Do not allow ONE unkind word or action to come from him. Don’t allow his infidelity. Just hang up the phone, reject his texts, don’t allow him in the front door. At all times handle him nicely, that speaks about who you are, but none the less, he needs to be shut down when there is any abuse. It is what he will respect but most of all, it is what YOU deserve. You are not ugly, or old and the depression is only from the effects of what he throws at you. Underneath everything is love and life and caring. Put the abuse away from you. You all ready have some distance. You need to work on YOU and embracing the beauty that is within you. You have the beauty coming forth or he wouldn’t be trying to squash it. Lana, find the strength to stand up for yourself. Be loving and kind but strong and firm. Build up your self doing some things that you love and make you feel good about yourself and that build a strong, healthy life. My heart goes out to you and your plea. You can do this. You deserve it. You are worthwhile. Take care and be strong.
Hi Madge,
You are doing very well and congratulations because a narcissistic partner
is not an easy thing to deal with at all and I am not surprised
it sometimes gets you low.
The problem wit the kids is a tough one and I do admit it took the longest
with Steve, it was like he could completely drop the ‘act’
and be himself with me but then he would just get so
scared of showing the kids how vulnerable he felt and
in front of them the big tough and stern guy would be back.
I think that the trick here is you being a bit savvy in
finding him some new friends? If you keep a look out for
some men that are better fathers in terms of them being warm
and able to be themselves around younger people
it will for one thing set a better example for him and
also give him some people he wants to impress by being
better about this. I have also noticed that male narcissists
really crave solid male friends.
I introduced Steve to an older man in his 70’s who shared an
interest in gardening (on a fairly big scale) with Steve and this man
(who also was once a minister) became a very good solid role
model for Steve and someone that he did well in wanting to impress.
There may also be some kind of mentoring program at your
church etc. that you could challenge your husband to join?
If he was mentoring other younger men in an official capacity
it might give him some pride in improving his skills
with this and there would be other men in the program to
also monitor him and perhaps give him advice.
You may not think he would be interested but then you might
be surprised. I have found Steve like a duck to water in anything
where he gets to spend time with (particularly older) men.
Hang in there Madge and congratulations that your gay
son has such a warm and stable relationship. That is a real credit
to you as I know life can be very challenging and lonely for a
lot of gay men.
Kim
Hi Lana,
OK so you want this guy gone out of your life for good? Because you really need to make
up your mind. You will not be able to use our program to help him and leave him too
and it is best you understand this. The last chapter in “Back from the Looking Glass” will however
teach you how to get him to leave you alone for good if that is what you want. You must also
stop giving him money or taking care of him but this will be easy once you see what you have
to do. Part of that I think will be telling him you love him but that you are broke and start asking
him for loans! (LOL). But no seriously I think you should still also get our workbook too because
there is still so much you can learn in there to protect yourself and start rebuilding your life and
make sure you never let someone use you like this again. It is time you learn to be tougher and
smarter and get what you want out of your life!
Hang in there Lana, and all the best,
Kim
Hi Anna,
I know that you would get a lot from ur ebooks and I think it might help you decide
one way or another what you want to do an how to go about it. When you see how much
is involved you might either say “I can do this” or you will say “It is not worth it” and you
will know. Either way I know that our advice will teach you to be much stronger and
tougher and hopefully never again let him get away with stealing your car!
Hang in there Anna,
Kim
Thanks Laura,
You might tell people on this list where they can find your movies and I hope that you
have found our movies and books too and that they might be of so e help.
It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of your husbands wound and
have been through enough that you might build enough trust with him to bring
his walls down, before you are left caring for him wen he is old which is something
which I can hear you are rightfully worried about.
Hang in there and you are not alone either and I am glad that you have found us,
Kim.
Thanks for your help cathy and I really want to give a warm welcome to all the newcomers
here and thank-you for your courage in sharing your stories.
I want to encourage you all to help and support each other and if it gets too crowded just
suggest a new discussion topic.
I will be off writing two new books I have had on the drawing board for some time now
and while I am gone Steve will be around as will Sanjay (for customer service issues) and a
new team member Steve will introduce in a couple of days.
Still this is your space which we will protect and keep sheltered for all of you and we encourage
as much as possible you to make friends and help each other all you can and I will drop in
now and then to offer what extra advice I can.
You are all so beautiful and strong deep down inside and these trials you are going through will
bring that strength to the surface in the next few weeks and months I just know it.
You hang in there too Suzanne and I know someone is here to help you. The advice in our ebooks
is NOT easy but it is worth learning and will benefit you not just with your partners but in so many
other ways you will never regret learning these things.
Take care and thanks again Cathy for being here to lend a hand,
All the best,
Kim
As I said, I have a Youtube Channel in which I specifically discuss Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
The address for that is: http://www.Youtube.com/DelusionDispeller. (thank you Kim, for letting me post my link here)
I have a comment regarding one of the common things about NPD. I have read not only in your writings, Kim, but other posts about NPD, that the person with the disorder tends to behave one way in public and another way in private. I have also seen this in the female Narcissists I’ve come across.
With my husband, his behavior is really not different in public or in private toward me. He is nasty to me in front of people or behind closed doors. Basically, I think there may be a bit of antisocial behavior in him as well.
The hardest thing to deal with regarding him, is that his father taught him to have disdain for animals and for people who are ill or mentally challenged. He sees both as worthy of torment and most of the time, if he hears of an unfortunate incident involving either, his attitude will be “so?” In other words, if things do not affect him directly and personally, he has learned to put a wall of not caring. He has very little empathy toward people or animals and hates to see me show any…he calls me a “bleeding heart” because I can’t stand to just let someone struggle or suffer for any amount of time, and will step in to help them.
Overall, if I had it to do over again, there is no way I would have married this man. I have 3 lovely girls by him though, so that is my silver lining in the cloud that happens to have come along with him.
I want you to know, Kim…I have tried your techniques (other that calling the police on him) because I call the police on the neighbors all the time for their bullying my daughter anyway.
I do know that both husband and daughter COWER when a policeman comes to the house. I’ve seen it…they start shaking or crying like babies, because they perceive police officers as very high and powerful in the line of authority and punishment (maybe representative of their own brutal fathers?) So, your suggestion to call the police is a good, effective one!
I could write books myself here, but I’ll keep this short for now. In fact, my pastor told me to write books about how I have overcome obstacles in my life, but I have no clue how to get them published after I write them.
~Laura
I don’t know if we are limited in how many comments we may post, but I think this might possibly help someone…
Over the past 2 years, my husband’s cousin’s son was diagnosed with MMA (Methylmelonic Acidemia). This disorder requires him to use a G-Tube/Foley device (hole in his stomach with a hose attached) in order to eat. The baby cannot digest much protein and breaks out in rashes if he gets ahold of any offending food substance.
My cousin has taken this boy to countless doctors. His case is so rare that they want to put him in medical books!
Recently, a new doctor in Seattle discovered that there is a missing gene in my cousin’s son. Her daughter and she both have the same missing gene, and the baby’s grandmother also might have this. Lacking this chromosome is starting to be linked with mental/psychological learning disabilities and behavioral disorders…
As you can imagine, my cousin and I are now wondering if this is the same problem throughout the family, all the way generations back. My mother-in-law, her sister, my husband, his sister and brothers all could have this missing chromosome, which accounts for the slow-learning in the family (every one of the daughters I have had with my husband, are slow-learners, have failed a grade or two, and have been homeschooled because of inability to function in a social environment).
If this is the case, what I believe may have happened is this:
My husband’s father was raised in an orphanage that I believe was very abusive and cold. My husband’s mother most likely has a learning disability. Put these two together and it was NPD meets TOTAL DEPENDENT. The father molested both his step daughter and daughter and not sure about the sons. He was brutally abusive to both animals and his children (my husband being one of them), was never happy or satisfied with anything his children did, but demanded constant perfection and utter, unquestioning respect.
Now, one of the things of Narcissists is they can NOT stand people who seem “weak.” If my husband and his mother and his siblings had learning disabilities, being that my father-in-law had a GENIOUS IQ, he would see them as an embarassment and deserving of his brutality. Beat up an already mentally dysfunctioning person and what do you have…well, a number of things…alcoholics (3 of husband’s brothers became this), workaholic narcissist (husband), and a daughter who was so extremely abusive to her children that her son didn’t even want to live with her and moved back home with her ex…her daughter shows the same mental slowness as the rest of the family. (she couldn’t figure out how to get the cap back on a detergent bottle) and my children know her as the “ditz” of the family because of the silly things she says and not jokingly.
Well, I’ll let you all know what happens with the mma situation and the possible linking-chromosome that could be lacking. I’m hoping at some point that they test the entire family!
~Laura
Cathy, thank you for your comment, and Kim I really don’t know how to put him out of my life forever. Just yesterday I let him come back here again. He is now in love with the Flipino woman and has her picture in his (our) bedroom. Will his behavior continue on to her also? Why is so hard not to just walk away forever? I am miserable, I don’t clean the house I don’t want to leave or go outside of the house. All he wants to do is use me and doesn’t try to hide the fact he’s in love with yet another one. It is always him making people feel sorry for him and how bad he was treated. I have never gotten so mad at anyone that I hit them until him and it makes me feel so low but he calls me everything under the sun and I just can’t take it anymore.So now I will try being extra nice to him all the while making him stay away. I will let you know how this works.I really believe he wakes up lying anymore.
Lana Grammer, This is Cathy again. Don’t beat yourself up for letting him come back again. Statistics say that it takes an average of 7 times before an abused person has the strength to say enough is enough and truly mean it. But it could take 30 times and each time is genuine and hopefully you will gain the strength bit by bit. What will help you in the mean time is putting up those boundaries. The abuse that he puts forth to you is intended to make you angry, to hurt you and keep you down. He can justify himself more powerfully when he can point a finger at you. (But then again we all know that they justify themselves at every turn no matter how well or how poorly we handle ourselves.) And this is a exactly why we need to learn this next principle I want to explain. Since he is going to justify himself and put the blame on you no matter what you do, then you need to stop accepting what he is saying to you. Kim calls this method “Snipping” or something like that where you just separate yourself from the emotions and the actions that he is thrusting upon you. When he tells you that you are to blame or that you haven’t measured up you just “snip” “snip”, (like letting go of a bouquet of balloons that you are holding on to) and don’t let the comment take hold in your emotions. As he is talking you can think about the tv show that you are going to enjoy later. If he said your hair was blue you would know it was untrue and be accurate in thinking he was “off his rocker”. The comment would just deflect off of you and not take hold. Why should it? It is irrelevant to who you are or anything that matters or is true. Well these other hurtful comments are no different. They are not true. It doesn’t have any relevance to who you are. Don’t accept them. Let them deflect off of you. This tactic is going to throw him off, when he realizes his abuse is not affecting you the way it always has. It will give you some of your power back and hopefully some of your self esteem. AND get that woman’s picture off of your bedroom wall. You do not have to be disrespected like that. It is completely inappropriate. Do not accept abuse in any form, and that is a blatant form of abuse. One thing I was shocked at was how much power I actually had with my abuser. I spent so many years afraid of him and thought I had no choices. When I started standing up for myself (nicely, remember, being dignified and nice is important to building the strong, beautiful, kind woman that I wanted to be) that I saw him back off. I had the power to stand up for myself all along. Who knew? Every step you make in the right direction is a victory Lana. And by the way, he is NOT in love with the Filipino woman, she is just his next target for abuse. Snip, snip Lana!! Cathy
I went through this over the past year, Narcissists are really scary, they will stop at nothing. I love Ryan, but he is gone and I cannot fix it. I wish I would have know what to do at the time, I know now he really needed me to be strong and I let him down. I just didn’t know what to do. Do they usually come back? I don’t think he ever will…I would love to help Ryan, but he won’t give me another chance. I am strong now though, and ready to move on. Thank you Kim.
I have a question but I’ll start with parts of my story as maybe some of it may help someone.
I’m 35. My husband has been abusive to me for 7 years…we have been together for 11 and friends for 24. I believe the responsibility of fatherhood triggered it for him. I have been sworn and shouted at thousands of times..and psychologically and emotionally bashed in a cycle of uncontrolled rage…remorse/love/closeness…neutral almost detached calm…complete indifference..contempt…. building tension…rage/terrible abusive outburst.. and then remorse and affection again.
I ended up 3 years ago in a psychologist’s rooms seeking help for my ‘issues’ (I had believed him when he said I was the cause of all our problems). It turns out yes…as with probably all of us I did have some work to do. My main problems were I was tetering back and forth into depression..and I had a child-like need to be approved of and valued and a very low sense of personal entitlement (due to experiencing my parents disappointment in me meeting unrealistic high standards as a child now reaffirmed as an adult by my current abusive partner). It’s no wonder I accepted my husbands critisism and unrealistic expecatations of me as a failure on my behalf and I slowly gave him more and more control without either of us noticing.
I did not take medication…but it took a lot of work…I’m now stronger and have a sense of what is just and unjust in regards to how I am treated. Most of the time it is unjust..unfortunately as I became stronger and expected more my husband had to go further to ‘keep the power and control’. In the last 12 months it has become violent on occassion either smashing furniture or objects or hurting me physically. My psychologist now has me accepting that I’m in a relationship of domestic violence and until my partner seeks help I can’t do a lot more other than damage minimalization.
I finally said to my partner last week….during an outburst…”look I love you and it is my preference to spend my life with you but I cannot spend my life with the man who is shouting at me right now. He is not the real you. You are a loving man with issues relating to your parents and those issues are impacting on me and your children and you need and deserve help. I believe you use me as the excuse for your anger but I do not believe I am the real reason. If you don’t get help my 2 choices are to stay in this volatile environment or go..and I cannot stay.” (I had planned this speech in advance..in the heat of the moment it’s hard to think clearly).
It initially didn’t work the way I’d hoped. He became more enraged and said there was no way he’d get help because I make no effort in anything I do. He swore..told me if I expected him to get help I could go get ****. He told me to get the **** out of his life and then got on the phone, transferred his wages out of his account and told me to come up with the mortgage and seek legal advice about my entitlements because I would be suprised at what he already knew (he was bluffing). It was horrible…but similar to the past… I rang a friend who is a social worker who made me calm down and believe in myself. She said ‘let him threaten and fume and keep trying to control you…this is more proof as to how out of control he feels…YOU WILL BE OK WHATEVER YOU DECIDE TO DO BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM…do not let him know how much this is hurting you…stay strong in his presence. So I went out and got out the white pages and looked up the numbers of all the support agencies I could find. I think this made him realize I meant it and I was moving on. (he was busy making a list….’change my will’ , ‘change my insurance’, ‘ring work to get my wages put in my account’ etc etc…)
Late into the night…he came in and humbly begged me not to leave and promised to get help. I nearly fell out of bed. In a way it was confusing because I had finally decided it had to end. I’m still wary….actions are louder but it was the first ever acknowedgement that he could benefit from advice and help.
I do have a question after all this….we HAVE to get this right..he will not tolerate going fom one counsellor to another. Should we speak together as a couple…should he go alone….should he go to anger management…a counsellor or a psychologist? He hasn’t been diagnosed with anything because of course he hasn’t spoken to anyone before but it is my layperson’s thoughts that narcissism is HIGHLY likely…I want someone who can recognize this if he does have it and provide appropriate help. We live in the eastern parts of Melbourne. Would love some feedback if anyone has any.
Cara,
I am not going to say much because our program is designed exactly for you. You are in nearly an
identical situation as I was and I was also in Australia. If there is any reason you can’t buy our ebooks
(I would suggest special offer 3 on our introductory specials page) please let us know and we will
help you purchase them. You are not alone, the steps and exercises in our books are written as if
they were just for you.
You cannot leave this up to your husband getting help and there is not many people out there who
would know how to help him or say there was any hope anyway. It is great he has let his vulnerability
show but you cannot keep threatening to leave to keep his resolve up or it will back fire. It was
your strength in this situation and your courage to go public that he responded to anyway more
that your threat to leave. We will teach you how to keep this strength up and help
yourself to help him. He wont need lots of time in counselling or therapy anyway I would say.
But he will need you knowing that you are the strong one and he will need some patience and
very strong boundaries and limits put on his abusive behaviour and the right challenges in appropriate
time frames.
I am glad that you found us Cara … you are not alone,
Kim
I’m in something of an immediate quandary, and wonder if anyone has advice. My boyfriend of four years and I recently separated (he moved to his sister’s house in a neighboring town) Our relationship has been tumultuous; he is alcoholic, a smoker, and looks frequently at porn (addicted?). He went to rehab several years ago, but relapses frequently in the form of social (not excessive) drinking. When we are together, he seems to be able to control both the drinking and smoking with not too much trouble, but on the occasions we’ve separated he resorts to heavy use and feels “rudderless.” He associates me with stability and wants to be with me. He is rarely honest when he thinks he may meet disapproval, and has maintained a likeable personna with his mother and sister for years and years. They always take him in and think he’s been ill-treated. I recently found out that his porn use, of which I was occasionally aware, has remained a compulsion despite assurances to the contrary. This was the reason for the last separation. He blames me for any acting out he does, saying that it is my overreactions to things that spurs his addictions. I know better. I know he cannot accept responsibility and does not want to be accountable. During this last separation, he began looking at sites for porn addicts, made a couple of posts, and seemed to get it and wrote to me with some clarity about the issues. But, in the past few days, since we’ve considered getting back together, I’m seeing again his dodging behaviors. In essence, I’m the only person in his life who demands accountatility and honesty, so I remain an “intervention commitee” of one. What I want to know is whether it is advisable or even ethically correct to tell his mother and sister the truth of his behaviors so that he doesn’t have that cushion to fall back on every time he thinks he’s had it with me.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Hi Cindy,
Please check out a a great book called, “Seven weeks to sobriety” for his alcohol problem. Alcoholism is a physiological disease that needs medical and nutritional intervention. Yes there are issues in his head that feed his drinking but the underlying problem is the sugar imbalance that alcohol creates. Check out the book, it is really wonderful.
When you are the only ‘intervention committee’ (very well put, BTW) you will only grow tired and resentful, no matter how much you love him; this is why Kim and I recommend building a support network of other people. His mother and sister may become defensive if you approach this topic carelessly, s be careful. As Kim says, you must frame this with your concern for him as the major theme. Don’t act like you have the answer, just admit that you have no idea what to do about his addiction to porn. (Even though you may have some ideas). It is vital that you get them on side, and this can be a difficult job. Is there anyone else you can approach.
There are two roads in life for us all; the road to personal growth, and the road to personal disintegration. If he can build a healthy attachment to you he will grow and so might you. If he keeps an attachment to porn the only way is down. There is little room for personal growth with a porn addiction.
So please take care in your next step Cindy, you can do it well I am sure.
Steve,
My husbands behavior indicates an addiction. I have checked his web history and different things and the main thing that I see him doing is watching movies. (Thank you Net Flix) They aren’t X rated or anything, but the nudity and such in R’s and even PG 13 movies is so offensive to me. Where he used to turn his head, now he seeks it out.
Would you consider this a porn addiction possibly? He is so closed off to admitting any problem with this but his behavior is so indicative of succumbing to an addiction. He watches a good three movies every night until on into the middle of the night. I really think that this is all that he is doing. There aren’t magazines, or other women. Is this enough to have a porn addiction? And what can be done if he won’t admit to there being anything wrong?
Hi Kim & Steve:
I was married for 13 years to a man I believe has NPD. I left him six months ago and regret it very much. I wish I would have found your site before I left him. We have three children together (11,8, & 2)and two adult children with other people. The seperation has been hard on the kids but harder on me. He has a new girlfriend and says he is very fond of her. “She does things for him I never did”. I left him because he was texting and talking to another woman. This was the third time I caught him having extra marital relationships. I suspect there were many others though. I never felt secure in the relationship. He lied all the time about the most rediculous things. Things he did not have to lie to me about. He would boast about how great he was at his job and how everyone loved him so much yet, he has no friends or social life. If he wasn’t talking about how great he was he was talking about how stupid and incompetent everyone else was. This really turned me off and I did not know how to tell him. Because of my insecurity and frustration I was unable to be affectionate with him. I felt like he was emotionally unavailabel to me and he said the same about me adding physically unavailable. I did everything for him from keeping our budget to maintaining our large yard (on two acres). I work 30 hours a week and take care of the childrens needs on my own. He never gave any signs of appreciating what I did. The lies and other women in his life are the reason I left. I felt like our whole life together had been a lie. I felt like he had absolutely no regard for me or my feelings. He has not paid cild support in two months and sees the children about 15% of the time. He refuses to give me the childrens toys and the rest of my things. I have filed for divorce but need him to sign the child support agreement and asset document to finalize it. He has not signed either stating that he does not agree with everything I put in them. I have not pushed the issue because I am holding on to hope that he will realize that I was a good wife and our family is worth fighting for. Now that I have left him, he has paid me 50% of the equity from our home, I have purcased a home, and he has a girlfriend he has been involved with for three months I don’t think he will ever come back to me. I just don’t know what to do. If you have any advise for me I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
Cindy
Hi Cathy,
I would be suspecting a porn addiction, but I can’t be sure. I am certain that you must find out one way or the other. His addiction to watching the box is a relationship killer and is really unacceptable on many levels.
So, first, find out as much as you can about what he is watching, and then decide what the next step might be.
If it is porn, you need to be honest with him about how you feel about that. Really make sure you know what your feelings are about it before you speak to him. Give him a chance to rectify it, be clear about what you want, but no ultimatum should be given to him about it yet. Give him notice that you know about it.
If it isn’t porn, I still think that you have a serious problem on your hands. Movies are fantasy, highly removed from reality. Even the kinds of dramatic, non-fantasy stories are not very reflective of reality. He has made a point of non-communication as his form of communication, and this will end your marriage eventually. How long has this been going on? This is going to be difficult to approach, because he has immersed himself in goodness-knows-what, and is out of practice being able to relate to people. This may present a problem of him being defensive, so be careful.
This brings me back to my suggestion of keeping your next communication with him on a level of how YOU feel. If you are lonely, he needs to know. But try and stay as calm as possible, it has to be about you and not him at this stage.
Hi Cindy,
I hope you’re doing Ok, it sounds like you’ve had a hard time of it.
To answer your question as honestly as I can, I want to point you back to something you said in your post.
you wrote.
” I have not pushed the issue because I am holding on to hope that he will realize that I was a good wife and our family is worth fighting for.”
It sounds to me like you *are* a good wife and that you *are* worth fighting for. If there is anything about yourself that makes you doubt this, you need to look at that immediately, and start taking steps to build your own belief in yourself again.
Wanting him to ‘prove’ this is placing all the power in his hands, and is making you powerless, even though you are a really get woman worth fighting for.
Now, I know this doesn’t completely help, because there are other factors contributing to your hurt. Like him acting like a single man while you are doing %85 of the child-rearing, (of his kids). So, please don’t think like I am trying to give you any easy answers here.
Since there seems to be a formal separation here, you have lost the opportunity to follow many of our steps in our guides. My guess is that he will eventually want you back, or eventually realise that you were the right woman for him. That may take decades…it may take years….I really can’t say. But there isn’t much you can do at this stage to change his mind about this. You can take the positive steps of self-soothing and filling your own development gaps.
I really don’t enjoy hearing about stories like yours Cindy, but I do know that if you give our eBooks a chance, we can help you with building your own feelings of self-assurance. It may be too late with this guy, so wish him well and give your best to you and your kids now. I’m so sorry.
Hi Steve:
Thanks for your response. That is what I was afraid of. It just really baffles me as to why he wont sign the papers or give me mine and the childrens things. My hope was that he wanted us back but I suppose it has more to do with control and his disrepect for me. I am seeing a therapist and it is helping. Eventually I might get over my co-dependancy and be able to have a healthy relationship with some one new.
Thanks again and keep up the good work. Best wishes to you and Kim.
Cindy
Hi Cindy,
If I were your fairy Godmother, I would put a good behaviour spell on him, one that would last forever, I would rub out the other woman, I would give him flowers and chocolates and send him back to you to beg your forgiveness. I think your heart would want that more than finding someone new at the moment.
This is where we really want to make a point. You are not wrong to love him, you are a great person to want to hold out hope for him. Trying to find answers is a natural and intelligent response to his abuse.
Sometimes, Kim and I have to admit that we can’t help, and in your case I don’t think winning him back is anywhere on your radar. There will be an enormous advantage in you reading our eBooks however, because you will have a relationship with him for a long time via the kids. You cannot allow the kids to see you being abused and manipulated by him. They will learn this to be normal and it is not acceptable in 2009. You need to have tools ready to limit abuse, no matter how subtle or covert. You can do it..
Steve,
Yes, I do have a problem on my hands. You asked how long this has been going on well… it started in about 2005, I called him on it and he stopped for about 10 months and then he started in again with staying over at his office (which is across the street from our home) until 2 to 3 am every night. Of course I was lonely and told him so time and again but the final straw was that I got a notice that our house was in foreclosure and was to be auctioned in 10 days. I didn’t know. When I confronted him about it, not in accusation, but in distress of “what do we do”? He flew at me with horrible accusations and left the room.
This is a tiny glimpse of what has gone on for 27 years. Your unbelievable descriptions of confabulation, accusations, delusions of grandeur, all you have said about NPD is a description of my life. He told me I was crazy for so many years I believed it. His cruel treatment of our 7 children and the control and hurt that he has caused them have had them begging me to leave him for years. After the foreclosure incident I left him. This was in the spring of 2007. Since then he moved into his office and I moved back and live in our home across the street from our office. It has been two full years that we have been living across the street from each other: married, dating and separated. I feel that one of the greatest obstacles is this movie fetish he harbors. And your words made me question that possibly what I am actually fighting is pornography. It is a better life than what I had because he isn’t under our same roof and I don’t tolerate the abuse, but it is not healthy and it is not acceptable. It was after I left that I came across your website and your book. I have done much of what you have suggested. I treat him kindly (although his confabulation often creates another story, I only know that I am correct in my perceptions because my children will have witnessed an interchange and confirm that I have handled him kindly.) I created the support group you suggested. I call him on the abuse and he knows I won’t tolerate it. The one thing I can’t rectify with your advice is that I have all ready left him. I can see the value you speak of in that he needs to know that he won’t be abandoned. But it was too late for that since I had all ready left. The children and I are safer and healthier with the separation however, we are not subject to his decrees and outbursts and punishments. So, you were exactly accurate in stating that it would end our marriage eventually. But it hasn’t really ended. I feel like I love him and he charms my soul when he is kind to me, but then he is cold and I see the cruel things he does and is and I feel that I am only in love with a dream of what he could be and what I want him to be. Is he really the monster that he presents? If so, then I don’t like who he is, and I shouldn’t nurture the love I feel for him at times. Or is he just this damaged child that can be nurtured back to health if I stay and try to help him?
Steve, I tell you, I didn’t think you were for real when I first read your website and ebooks. I didn’t see how a person who has NPD could be consistently compassionate and kind, could heal the damage inside them and be a healthy addition to their family. I am impressed with your admission of who you were and the way you treat Kim and your advice to all of us. How do I take my messy situation and nurture into health our relationship?
Hi Cathy,
Thanks for your post. The problem is he is both the monster and the frightened child. When he is a nasty and horrible monster, he is hiding the frightened child, and vice versa. The nastiness is behavior related, the child is more his real self. The problem is that you haven’t got this lion in the ring anymore. We can teach you how to handle the whip and the chair while this lion is in the ring, but now that he is out on his own…you will have trouble.
Of course you still have feelings for him, and his nastiness doesn’t cancel out his better qualities. This is your children’s father an you will need to nurture some positivity towards him. But having said that, he needs to know that he has killed your passion and a large part of your womanhood, “and that sucks buddy”. You can remain civil in other areas, but about the sexual abandonment of you, he needs to face that failure(of duty). I am not sure how you can deliver such an emotionally charged message while staying calm like we suggest. Maybe you don’t have to be completely calm, but try not to be hysterical.
Take good care Cathy, I know this won’t be easy for you.
He is still very much in the ring because we see each other daily. He considers himself married and not even separated, his bedroom is just across the street. He says that “he will do what is needed to give me what I want, but he doesn’t know what that is.” I have been very clear that I want him home accept for work, (he comes home maybe 5 minutes a day accept when we have a special occasion) I want him involved in our lives, I want the movies to stop. I want him to support us financially. How much clearer can I be?
Steve, how do you know that you have changed? I mean is it because it has been a long time that you have been on this better path? Is it because you feel differently inside? Are your thought processes different? What does being healed of NPD look like and feel like?
Cathy
Need some advice – I’m married to a wonderful husband for 12 years. He was married before and had two sons out of the marriage. He obtained full custody of his kids as his ex wife left the country after the divorce. She came back in the kids lifes after a few years and we thought it is great that she wanted to build a relationship with them again… after a lot of confusion… (to much to tell) we realized that she (my husbands ex) must be a narcisist. Our youngest son had to go to a psychologist due to all the confusion she caused in his life (mostly unknown to us). She told ridiculous lies to him about my husband and I (the parents who raised him; she specifically tried her best to destroy my relationship with the boys). Now she apologised profusely for what she did and committed herself “not to mess up again”. How do I handle this situation? She is my husbands ex and my two sons mother… how can I make the most of this? Should I tell the kids of their Moms disorder? They love her a lot and I do not think its a good idea… but I want to protect them from getting hurt & confused any more… and I also want to protect myself and my relationship with my children. I enjoyed and found your book helpful, but will like your views on my specific situation. Thanks!
I have a narcissistic boyfriend who I have been living with the past 5 months. The main problem with his behavior is that he refuses to have sex and spend hours on the internet about 30 percent of the time looking at pictures of other women(not porn just on a website he frequents) and saving them on his computer, needless to say this is very hurtful. Anytime I try to confront him on any aspect of his behavior he threatens to leave. He has been married several times before and would probably walk out the door without too much provocation. I do love this man, feel sorry for him, and would like to stay with him, but he is not making me feel valued, when I try to tell him how I feel he says I am jealous and possesive. I am working on trying to make myself stronger, so that I can be alone if I have to, but I do love and feel sorry for this guy, and I would like this situation to work out long term if possible, but obviously I need to get my needs met. Advice…not sure how much I want to tolerate.
Hi Kim and Steve,I need some advice and am wondering if anyone else has had this problem.I have been living with my boyfriend for 16 yrs.He has no children and has never been married.I have 6 grown children and have been married twice,(there was physical and verbal abuse in both past marriages),and when I met my boyfriend I was determined to make this relationship work.He seemed so much calmer and well different than my 2 x’s.I have since come to realize that he isnt any better than my x’s he was just better at hiding his aggression as I believe he is passive agressive.After discovering your site and reading how a narcissist behaves I believe he is also Narcissistic.My problem among many is this; he has had what started out as a rash on his arms and lower legs for the last 5 years. He said it was scabies and that I gave it to him by cheating on him.(I have never cheated on him.)He called me all kinds of things ,slut ,ect.I didnt have any symptoms but I thought if i proved I didnt have anything like that he would stop. Well I went to 3 Doctors they all said I had nothing wrong. Finally he stopped. But now he has switched on what he says is wrong with him.He has been saying for the last 3 years that he is infested(to use his wording),with mites. He is totally obsessed with this idea even though I know it is not mites.It has gotten so bad that he wants to wash the bed clothes everyday ,and with so much bleach it burns my nose!He also stays in the shower for 4 or 5 hours ,sometimes longer scrubbing his entire body and using bleach on himself.He has used flea spray and gone to the Doctors giving them the right symptoms so they think he has scabies and gets a prescription that he over uses and leaves on himself for 8 hours instead of the directed 1 hour.The doctor has never actually tested his skin to make sure what he has.I know if he would leave it alone and not constantly pick his scabs off and use harsh things on it that it would go away.But when I try to reason with him he gets mad and says I dont want him to get well and I dont care about him! He is always in a depressed mood around me but seems fine if he is around others. He will be laughing and bragging to someone ,(like he enjoys most),and not acting sick in any way until he is alone with me then he changes .He frowns and moans and says I dont care and that he is really sick!!But he refuses to go to the doctor.I cant take this much longer. I have gotten to the point that I think sometimes I really dont care anymore but I really just want him to love me and be happy so I can love him. Also we havent had sex but maybe one time in the past 2 years and its been this way for almost 8 years. I am 55 and he is 50. His mother and father were alcoholics.His father died in car crash because of him being drunk when he was 7 yrs old and his mother became more and more involved with alcohol ever since.She has since passed also. I have lost all sence of self worth ,and feel like a walking zombie most days,so depressed. I just wanted to get my story out.Sorry for being so long.But believe me I could go on for days there is so much more.Thank You for listening, Melody
Hi!
So I’ve just read your ebook, it was very motivating and invigirating, thank you Kim and Steve for that. I have found my way to you both because I think I’ve reached the point of no return. I also visited several other sites and support groups online that left me feeling like there was a whole world of people out there that knew me but couldn’t help me. It was like I was at home, but unhappy. Finding you both and your work has not only brought me home but given me empowerment that I have needed all my life!!! So thank, thank, thank you!!!
My husband and I have been married for almost 8 years. It wasn’t until this year that I learned of NPD. With the research and experience I FINALLY knew that it wasn’t JUST me, and felt like something made sense for once. I’m at a crossroad and it’s time for me to make decisions. I desperately want to preserve my family with my husband and our two beautiful daughters and beat the odds. I am willing to do the hard work. Letting go of all the negative things that have happened; all the betrayal, lies, cheating, broken committments and abuse over the years has held me down in depression. I always thought if I let go (without some profound acknowledgement from him and some mind blowing apology) that meant it was ok to beat my spirit to a pulp over and over and that I must be worthless since I have let this happen to me for almost a decade with this man I LOVE. NO MORE. I realize that I hold the key to my own source of power and strength and I am prepared to rebuild at all costs.
I am concerned about a few strategies and points in the ebook that I would LOVE for you to support me on. Markell is in the process of launching a business. This process has resurfaced our issues (after a near divorce in January of this year). Each and every time I try to make a suggestion or have input in decision making (these are decisions that will in fact effect my life and my children’s lives) we battle. He believes I have no rights and behaves like I have no equality. I want to work it out but I don’t know how to turn my back and say “do whatever you think is right” when I do not trust him – as he has repeatedly (year after year) made committment and promises of my “safty/security” and broken them to serve his own needs and desires. This in turn breaks the already severed trust and creates the wall between us. The area I am concerned with is reaching out to the community members. He will FREAK if he knows that I have put him in an undesirable light. Especially because of the work he wants to do in the community. I am fearful that building my support system in the community will enrage and severely embarrass him to the point where it will actually hurt me rather than help me. He is the type of N that appears to want to be let go. I separated from him once and he was glad to go and move on without ever even noticing he left a family behind. I don’t want to push him away by addressing his abuse and limiting his success in the community because he values that power and success most. He is capable of great success, and I do believe that he will stop at nothing to get there, this has meant (we have discussed this many times) that if having this family gets in the way of that he believes he should move on. It’s kind of like I’d be lucky to enjoy the lavish lifestyle that he wants to provide so how dare I want anything else. For example how dare I want him not to travel while the kids are young, or how dare I have a hard time sacrificing him being there for the children if I have the opportunity to have a big house and drive a nice car and go on vacations to Europe and… Even though those things aren’t the things that matter to ME. All I want is a partner.
I don’t know if I was clear or not, I certainly am confused! But I do want to follow the guide and be successful at reaching my goals. I do not know how to deal with the fact that he will not appreciate me going out there to ask for help.
Also, he has been held in a light all of his life as he is the most bright star in the sky. Although it doesn’t appear that people (other than me) have unrealistic expectations of him HE is the one. He believes and expects to be perfect because others have driven this into him all his life. It isn’t in a negative way though. It is actually very supportive how his friends and his friend’s parents and his parents see him as “perfect.” So the issue there is how do I separate those situations where he might enjoy inflating his ego but it seems to be in a supportive way. He participated in a schooling program where inner city minorities were bussed into affluent school systems and given opportunity to thrive. He did thrive and he should be proud of it. He recieved a full football scholarship to a division 1 school and played well. He was treated as a god. He should be proud of himself and so should EVERYONE else that knew him right? It’s almost like a cult though, all those who love him and revere him as this person who over came aversity. You should hear the way people talk to him, it’s so strange – like nothing I’ve ever seen before. SO… Is it me? How does he ever learn that he’s normal, that he isn’t perfect, that he can be proud and make mistakes at the same time? He is the one who puts the pressure on himself based on the situation all those around him created. Like it was a bigger deal that he succeeded, did they expect him to fail? Is that what he thinks? He has massive entitlement issues, and why wouldn’t he? So my question is : How does he learn that it’s ok to lower his expectations of himself and still be happy. I don’t think he can be happy unless he’s got his name on buildings and his name in papers for being the best real estate investor around, or the best developer, or the biggest this or the youngest one to accomplish that or the strong balck man who made this… How do I save him from himself?
HELP
I have been with my 44 year old boyfriend for about 3 years and not until I have read about the symptoms of NPD did I understand why I have been treated the way I have been. I am in a cycle of verbal abuse, ( I cannot do anything right, I am always messing up in every aspect of life) did I see what is happening and why. Please help me, I am new to this and I really don’t know how to be “nice” and still not stand for the verbal shouting and put downs. I don’t want to loose this person, what a weird thing to say considering how he treats me, but help me cope and show me how to act when he shouts and puts be down. I am the only person he does this to, he lives with his mother so he won’t do that to her and his daughters from a failed marriage are little china dolls to him, but not me or my daughter. How do I be strong and get the respect that I deserve?
Trisha
Hi Kim and Steve:
I am listening to your latest radio show “Narcissism Q & A” and I would like to point something out to you. First of all, thank you for all you do. I hope your hearts are pure and that you truly are trying to help so people and I applaud you as well as admire for that. But . . .
Your reaction to one the viewer’s question on your latest show – re: How can you say you have a cure when so many experts say they are incurable because they have no ability to feel remorse or empathy – was intriguing. Matter of fact, not to be insulting (truly), but it was borderline narcissistic. Here’s why I think that – and I’ll know by your response and by whether or not this comment disappears from this blog – how forthright you are being here just so we’re clear.
First of all – that person asked a legitimate question and you did EXACTLY like a narcissist does and turned it into something else (ahem, manipulated what was asked-and almost went into a typical narcissistic crazymaking tantrum). That is so indicative of a narcissist. I realize you have alot of experience with this so perhaps it is spilling over into your personal life, but . . . I’m just bringing this to your attention so you can be aware of it.
Then, not only did you turn that question around into something it more than likely was not, because you HAVE to give that person the benefit of the doubt since they weren’t there to defend WHY they asked it to begin with – but you got incredibly defensive after YOU turned the question completely around. I realize this is your life’s work and all, but seriously Kim, guess who behaves this way? A narcissist.
Why couldn’t you just answer the question? It was a legitimate one. Saying (at the end of your diatribe against this listener), “because we’ve been through this” did NOT answer the question directly. Again, another narcissistic trait. Is there some reason you couldn’t have succintly put together a response that would have satiated her concerns about your cure?
Thank you for listening! Looking forward to your response and more shows. I really do enjoy them.
Kyrie
Madge, i thought this note was mine until i got to the part about the children..i have two girls. everything you said is exactly what i am going through. except i don’t think i can do the ’support’ part any more. yes i read the song and understand the basics but my heart is just not in it anymore. i hope you can do it!
I would like to read the poem song of the male narcissit I was reading one of the blogs from Madge DeBryun and was hoping to share it with me.
I have been married 5 years, 2nd marriage and yes he was charming and all that stuff and I did not really know him or I should say know or understand about NPD. After doing some research, reading, and praying I have understanding somewhat but what I find happens to me is that I forget about when things are going smooth and all of a sudden drama once again. I fall for the trap and I get so mad at myself but only for a short time that I let my guard down. It took me a long time to understand that discussing or conversation was not the way. I do love this man but do not love the roller coaster ride. I am between decisions not sure what to do. will it ever change? I suppose all things are possible… How do I stay alert at all times so
I can use wisdom and keep my peace. I am not afraid of him nor an I afraid to show him my strenght. I want to help him get well, is there any hope for this relationship to ever be what I would like it to be?
I first want to thank Kim and Steve for opening up their hearts and lives to help other people. I was led to your sight and have been able to answer alot of questions, mostly regain some of my self-respect. However, still somewhat in denial I have not subscribed yet. My “husband” goes back and forth between all that is narcisstic”, and being the Godly man he was called to be. However it only takes a small trigger for me to be in the dog house!
I came on a visit to my two older daughters homes, with our two children over a month ago. One Grandbaby was having surgery, and the other needed a housesitter, and one was moving to a new house, on and on…I had not seen my girls for a couple of years or my grandchildren. Somehow I tripped the trigger…He isn’t speaking to me(silent treatment),he always wants a divorce, he isn’t sending any money for groceries( so I am spending the savings), he just informed me that I have no car insurance because he isn’t going to pay any bills and with all that rejection He is purposely not fixing the a/c so i won’t come home. I have been a stay-at-home mom for almost 10 years, I homeschool my children and am bringing them up to follow our Lord. I found out a year ago that my husband was not legally divorced from his first wife in Mexico. We were advised by our pastor that he should get one asap and fix our marriage…each time I have addressed this issue he has talked out of the side of his mouth. I now have Godly counsel to get legal advise, leave my kids with family, and go and give him an ultamatum….In the past and I know in the future God has always answered my prayers, but He has also called me to be obedient to Him, and my yes is on the table….I have to go back to the state where we live, and try to not trigger anything so my young children and I can move forward….I can’t believe how hurtful, he can be….
I don’t know anything other than this narcisstic behaviot opens the door for the “enemy” to come in and tear apart a Christian family. Its all really spiritual warfare….I pray God’s continued Grace and Mercy for us all….Thank You
Hi Kyrie,
It is not narcissistic to be upset by provocative comments, especially when I was honest about the hurt I felt.
I think the advice Kim gave this woman was very sound. Even if she was a bit upset by it. A tantrum? Really?
I have allowed your post this time, but really this place is not for feedback on our performance, this place is for people working on improving their relationships.
If we opened this blog up to those who disagree with us in a non-constructive manner, there would be no safe space for people needing help.
Steve.
Hi Kim & Steve,
I wrote yesterday and was very long winded, sorry. I just have a couple questions maybe you can help me clear up.
After reading the ebook I am thrilled to begin the new process. I however am concerned about reaching out to the community for support (police, DV,…) because my N husband is currently trying to “live out his dream” which involves becoming a very important and well know figure in the community. He is launching a company and (by nature of the N) feels the need to be famous and obviously well recognized and admired. He has been educating himself in preparation to launch this company for several years. Now that the ball is rolling he has begun reaching out to elite members in the community (real estate, financial institutions, business owners, developers, investors…). I do want to support him to succeed in this endeavor (obviously not at the cost of my happiness though). I fear that reaching out to the community on my end for support would infuriate & embarrass him in addition to alienating me even further.
ALSO, I wonder if this endeavor is nothing but a FUEL to his fire. If this building this name for himself will perpetuate his narcissism.
Please help,
Any insight or feedback would be great!
Thanks so much for your work!!!
I am feeling better than I have in years and it’s only the beginning of my process
Allison
Hi,
I am planning to buy the book & audio cassettes after the 4th. But here are some questions. I am 3 years into a relationship that is very abusive. He fits the NPD & BPD. He seems to project his feelings & actions onto me. He says I abuse & mistreat him. I am sad to know that he truly feels that I do this. Even with extensive knowledge to protect myself & help him,he rages at me a few times each day. I try not to let his put downs, obscenities and abuse effect me. But energetically, how does one handle this. I have tried walking out with nice communication, listening without responding to 30 minute reprimands, not engaging in fights, not letting my anger show & releasing it on my own. I have tried this consistantly for a month or so. I have enforced the boundaries that I have read are good to set & it only gets worse. What can I do differently.
Hi,
My spouse and I have had our first setback after 3 very good months. The best 3 months of our 17 years of marriage. I am unsure what brought on this setback but his words and actions are a collection of 17 years of accusations and blame. I feel overwhelmed. I feel very angry when I see childish bad behaviour, mess in kitchen. Freezer looks like a tornado went thru it. I am angry when he accuses me of hiding stuff when its on the kitchen counter when I come home. I am angry when he calls and calls my cellphone and demands I get dinner for him. The craziness the last week is really wearing me down. Where should I look to get help in dealing with the craziness?
Hi Betty,
You need to set a zero tolerance for abuse policy. Let him know that you love him and that you are not going to leave him but that you will not tolerate him raging at you. You can say “I don’t like where this is going and I am not prepared to discuss this further I need to get to work/sleep or just whatever it is that you want to do. If he follows you or continues after this you need back up and there is a lot about this in Back from the Looking Glass and the love safety net workbook. Who does he respect that he would be most embarrassed to know about his behaviour? That may be the person you need to talk to about your concerns for him. The sooner that you are able to disengage when you see what is coming the better.
Kim
Hi Allison,
It sounds very dangerous to me? What are his gaps? What should he really be concentrating on?
If he is being abusive that is his problem and not yours and you cannot protect him from himself.
There is a story of mine that I think you may benefit from here:
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/narcissism_Support/Kims_Blog/Entries/2007/10/14_On_Ego.html
I hope this helps some. I don’t know what kind of bad behaviours he is displaying but if he values his reputation
this actually gives you some leverage. Pick someone in authority to first speak to who will be sensitive to his
desire for privacy but also someone who will warn him of what will happen if his behaviour continues.
If you play this right it sounds like you may actually be saving him from a breakdown or public humiliation
in the future. Can he really sustain this new role he is launching? Watch those gaps!!! It is really these he needs
help with from someone who can be kind and supportive. You can only be kind however if you have
back up protection so don’t baulk at getting help.
Kim
Hi Nadine,
Hang in there but please get onto this quickly. There is someone who is feeding his ego and you need to figure
out who it is and try and talk to them. Who came on the scene when this behaviour started? Think about it you have had
three good months, this is not coming from inside but outside! You need to fix the fence and get this person
either out of your lives or set straight. I remember our last set back like it was yesterday even though it was years ago
I was so devastated. Steve invited a single woman who lives near us into our house (who we normal avoid) and she was
half drunk and flirting with him in front of our kids in my kitchen. I was furious! She even touched his hair in front of us.
This was just one part of all the old bad stuff back and we had a big fight. I went to see my local family support centre
and Judy there gave me the same advice I am giving you. I thought about it and it was not the woman he had invited
in. He could have done that any time and even though she is a flirt, Steve didn’t really like her (just the adoration!).
I thought about it and realised Steve had a new careers coucillour and bingo I had it. He had mentioned her a few times.
You see he couldn’t bring himself to tell her that he was not ready to get any kind of job but was just sorting
the mess out that he had made of his finances and helping me with my business. He needed an excuse to save his
pride and of course me being his standard excuse he just fell right back into blaming me. He told her that I would not let him get
training and that I was controlling and would only let him work for me! I found all of this out when I went and saw her.
At first she was really cold with me but I think she got a surprise when I asked her couldn’t she offer Steve any appropriate
training? She said “What would you consider appropriate?” In a really nasty tone of voice with her arms crossed. I said “Well
anything that is not night work since he has kids and also something that is not around alcohol because of his past record
for DV.” She softened then because she saw that what I was saying was sensible and reasonable and I wasn’t the
b—-h Steve had pretended I was. After we talked for awhile she also saw that a lot of what Steve had told her wasn’t true.
I was so scared to tell him that I had gone and seen her – I thought he would be so angry, but it was the opposite he was
so thankful and hugged me. It was like he was really glad that I had saved him from his own lies and also he was glad to see
that I was smart and strong enough to protect myself now and that I wasn’t going to let him get off the rails again.
After that it was a bit funny actually because Steve had actually told this woman that he was NPD but she hadn’t believed him in the
past but the next time he went to see her she said, OK now I see that you are NPD. She was then very supportive of him
just doing what he was able to and working on his parenting skills and getting his books sorted out without her pushing
him to get a job.
Steve and I might talk about this story on our show this week, I hope it helps and that you get through this.
Kim
Hi Kim,
thank you for the response
I am ordering the book tonite!
Here is the deal though- he acts similar to someone with BPD- he yells & throws things & says that I am abusing him. His cycles have been 1- 3 days. Sometimes 3 times a day he will have a tantrum. He builds up past issues & dominates the conversation so I can never explain. When I try to even when he is calm, he says I am lying to him & manipulating him. My heart aches because despite all my fault, I am a loving,patient person who has always been there for him & all he can say is that I never respect him, abuse & punish him, dont care about his needs, and that he will never trust anything I say. Even with the small things like when I ask him to believe me that I am supportive of the new extreme sports he takes on. He snaps & will never listen to me.
Aside from being totally lonely with him, do you really believes that I am the monster he tells me I am??
Is this normal for NPD or do you think he has something else???
Hi Betty,
Our material will help you whatever his problem because it focuses on you
not getting drawn into his ‘tantrums’. You will need to really do some
work on the personal bill of rights exercise in “the Love Safety Net Workbook”
too. I would also highly recommend you watch a few episodes of “the Super
nanny!” I know that you cannot put him in the naughty chair LOL” but you can
still apply the same zero tolerance for tantrums policy by using the Personal
Bill of Rights exercise and also by refusing to engage (without rejecting him).
I know it is going to take some really strength on your part, but it will be good
for you too.
Hang in there!
Kim
forgot to add- when i try the zero abuse policy, in an assertive yet loving way, he does not think he is raging. So the trivial topics that he wants to rage about continue to come up daily. yet he never feels resolve. when i apologize for hurting his feelings, he says i am not sincere & will never forgive me, when I try to set healthier boundaries, the abuse gets worse either then and or throughout the week.
as for respect, he seems to treat strangers & friends great. he always controls his temper. there is one friend who he respects but that guy has told me to be careful with him because he has a habit of bullying his women. He says he loves & respects his mom although he raged on her after brain surgery because she asked him not to open the window & he thought it disrespectful. he husband has raged on her so talking with her, she has told me that i am bad for him. i push his buttons & this might lead to physical violence. this being my fault..
Hi Kim,
just bought & read the love safety net workbook. Have watched many episodes of supper nanny. i agree with her & have tried to put her teachings into action to set better boundaries & stay unattached to rage & drama. this has lead to me walking out or asking him to leave almost every time.
you suggested to threaten to or call the cops if he uses intimidating methods. almost every day, he will yell, throw things, corner me & bully me where i cannot finish 1 sentence. even when i do not engage, this will happen.
what do you suggest??
i actually have done the bill of rights with my counselor 1 year ago & try to respect it but if i have the right to be treated with respect, have the right to finish a sentence & have my own point of view, i dont understand what i am doing wrong because although i have the right for the above, none of these gets met.
what do you suggest??
your website is kind of my last hope. i love & understand your skill & communications with everyone. I would really like to stay with him & work on myself, thus bettering the relationship.
after reading the book & knowing that I have put many of your ideas into action, i must be doing something wrong.
1-3 times a day he rages & blames. I 99% of the time do as you suggest in the book. I am not passive aggressive anymore. i have shown him that i will not leave him, i offer forgiveness without needing apologies, i am very independent & try positive actions when i feel negative & insecure with him. he just wont stop blaming & yelling at me for everything.
what would you suggest??
thank you for your time & expert advice!!
Hi Betty,
Have you spoken with the police yet? Kim suggests that you make contact with the police before you need them. His behavior of throwing things and cornering you sounds very intimidating.
My husband did this sort of thing on occasion. I spoke with a friend of his who is a gentle, caring, married man, about the problem behavior. I made clear I was doing this out of concern for my husband and for the good of our marriage. I told him I didn’t know how to handle my husband when he did these things. He gave me a few suggestions and also said I should feel free to call him should the need arise.
The next time my husband started doing these things, I told him I felt intimidated, that I had spoken with his friend, etc. He was initially angry that I had done that. I placed a call to the friend, who then phoned my husband and they spoke for a bit. My husband has not engaged in that behavior again in 9 months, so I think it was effective.
I’m glad you got the workbook. Remember that it is a 4-legged stool. Limiting abuse and handling your feelings effectively is really important, but you have to build attachment and do the gap work too.
Good Luck.
Jennie
It appears that I must be the only one living with a NPD WIFE! Yet I know that is not the case. My story threads through many of the ones I have read in this blog. My wife:
grew up being beaten by her dad
criticized by her mother
called names by her siblings
was expected to be the best at everything she did
played piano AND organ for seven church services starting in the seventh grade
is very bragosio
and so it goes…
Yes, she has angry outbursts and takes them out on me and sometimes our children. Yes she would physically beat on me (I would simply defend myself and remove myself from the situation). She can not take criticism. She is the best in everything she does. No one can please her. She has no regard for anyone’s feelings, thoughts, ideas, hurts, etc. I am the root cause of ALL her problems.
I used to get “beat-up” by her early on in our marriage until one night during an outburst SHE called the police. Instead of taking me, they brought her to jail because of the marks on my arms. That has pretty much stopped her from engaging in that behavour. Yet she now has a disdain for police and as usual blames it on me.
Recently I lost my job and now she believes that I need to collect disability, since I seem to not be able to keep a job. I work in an industry that is seasonal and in economic times like now it is usually the first cuts made by any business, customer or contractor. So, yes I have worked for several companies, but the “inability” to keep a job was not due to anything I did. Some I left to take another, more responsible position.
I began researching this subject to find a solution to resolve my living situation. I have yet to come across any website that provides one. I found this site and have hope now.
I am hoping to get a job soon so that I can purchase your books. Right now I am unemployed, in a bad financial situation, my wife pays all bills and handles all money transactions – I can not be trusted – and would blow up if she found me spending money on this topic. I once bought a book on borderline personality disorder and she threw a fit and demanded that I remove it from the house!! I simply read it when she was not around.
I am not looking for charity so keep sending your emails with tid-bits of information that I can use to improve my life.
Thank you!!
DC
Hi Jennie
thanks for the response- i am friends with 5 cops in town. one read me the police report from his last girlfriend who hit him because he made her so mad for months that she broke down during one of his bullying fights. he has told me that if i continue to bully him (talking & expressing my feelings or views & wanting to respond to him although he never asks me questions, just goes off on me, then i will drive him to do something physical. he has threatened me in this off handed way which is also blaming me & justifying what he ‘might do’ if i keep this up. he says his folks dont like me & believe i will push him to the point of doing something dangerous. so they have given him the justification to do something worthy of calling the cops since they all say that it is my fault for pushing him- by merely wanting to talk with him during his tantrums. so using reverse psychology on me, he has already blamed me for his lack of emotional control. so how can this ever change..
Dear Kim and Steve,
I hope you have gotten some rest and are feeling well.Also, I want to thank you for everything you put into helping others while also showing by example that you keep each other and your family first.
I am sitting here right now in a bit of despair, mad at myself and not really having much hope and perhaps the lack of hope is the correct view in this instance.
You may have read my previous post on the discussion pages.
I was divorced in January from a man that shows much of the behaviours you talk about. WE were married for 11 years much of it unhappy.I bought back from the looking glass but we were separated and I went away because it would be too painful to be across the street from him.
I have been back for a month and I live across te street.we are now civil. He had kissed me and wanted me to stay overnight with him and I did not because I want us to bond on other levels before we get physical. So I have been the one to initiate contact and he is receptive but not proactive. (Well that’s not entirely true. He stopped by with a gift that was a very helpful tool for my music and with money for groceries.) i cooked him dinner for his birthday or I just walk down the street to his house and talk while he waters the garden. Always saying his name in greeting showing I am happy to see him.
Yesterday, he said it was incorrect to have kissed me and that we are who we are and we just do not mix.I said I have made mistakes but am working on making changes in myself. Beside that he said I wouldn’t even be around if I didn’t live right up the street.
It hurt me but I didn’t show emotion. I asked him to be more specific about why it was incorrect but he couldnt. I didn’t try to convince or plead or anything like that-just said have a good day and left to get ready for work. I stopped by on my way to work and said I love him and I am not going anywhere.
the reason I am so mad at myself is that I went and gambled bill money. that is the addiction I developed to escape from the pain of the marriage. (I wish I had gotten your info sooner.)So I thought Kim might have some words of wisdom regarding my backsliding. Obviously I have to be further along in my emotional development to lead the way for him and to be strong enough. Overall, I have been doing well in setting goals. (small ones) and working towards them.
I want to respect his boundaries because he is trying to communicate. He also said I am trying to repair what might be irreparable. I asked him if he believed it was irreparable and he said he didn’t know. That was last week and he sounds like he has no hope or desire for that now.
When things got bad in our marriage I started traveling for work thinking he would miss me. He only got mean and it made me want to leave more because I didn’t know how to limit the abuse.
I realize I am rambling. I guess I am trying to just give you enough info.
I am working on the bill of rights which isn’t really applicable with him since we are not together. I have spoken to my priest to see if he would help if my ex got abusive. He said I could call on him and he would. but that also seems to be putting the cart before the horse right now. most people would say forget him it’s dead, move on but I guess I am still in denial. I am taking to a counselor who has been helpful. I guess I am just looking for some hope.
question for steve
well it looks like it’s too late. as i have been practicing from the workbook he left me.
he couldnt even communicate with me about it, just had a tantrum,& didnt hear from him for 2days. when i went over to see if everything was okay he started raging that i disrespect him, am ruining his happiness & that he can do way better than me. then he kicked me out. dont expect to hear from him anymore.
this tore me up. do you guys really look at us as not good enough & ones who ruin your good life?
id this a common way to get out of a relationship because you want to date someone else?
any response will be great here- thanks!
Hi Kim and Steve and thank you for your wonderful websites and products. I found you in January after the worst Xmas I have ever had with my NPD partner. Unfortunately his worst behaviour comes out around his family and particularly his daughter who hes sees almost as an extension of himself. She is also extremely difficult. He seems to want to keep us apart and there is always a major drama created if the three of us are together. His entire life is a ‘house of cards’ as you describe and he even tries to come in between me and my friends and because of my lack of confidence and that I dont speak his native language he can do so right in front of me…which leaves me feeling left out, stupid and isolated.
I have put a lot of the ideas in the workbook into practice and it worked so well initially but I have to say I find remaining loving toward my partner very difficult because of his sex addiction (affairs, fantasies, pornography) and I feel so lonely and unnapreciated. When he comes home after a few days ‘at work’ he just drinks and talks about himself or says nothing at all. I tried to limit his talk about himself and it did help but he doesnt have any hobbies or friends or any other interests at all. He is happiest when running others down but I asked him not to do that either.
We no longer have sex as I dont sleep in the same room as the neglect hurts me too much. I found sleeping in another room worked well for a while because (after I suggested it) he came down in the morning to talk and we really started to feel attached. As soon as I went back to sleeping in the same bed he began to neglect the relationship again. He uses viagara because of his drinking and it makes sex very mechanical and not at all loving (from my perspective). He did throw them away after I convinced him he really didnt need them but I know he ordered more which he keeps in secret for when he is away.
The other problem is that my partner is an alcholic. He is currently in rehab for that and sex addiction but refuses the NPD (although he accepted it before and joined your website). I am codependent and trying to rebuild my self esteem and confidence while he is away as we have no contact while he is in there. I want to go back to work full time but I couldnt cope with him and my work as well…he takes every ounce of energy as he is so emotionally demanding all the time.
Recently I disclosed these problems to his brother (these are the only people in his life: me, his brother and his daughter)and they live in other countries. The only other people are colleagues which he has made me swear not to ever tell about his problems. I have contacted the police because whenever my children come to visit he becomes enraged and very seperate. The police here said they couldnt help unless he did something which he mainly just shouts and calls me names and blames me for his continued addictions so no help there. He would never forgive me if I did and anyway he kicks me out of the house in a moments notice if I ever stand up to him and since its in his name I am very vulnerable as I have no where else to go.
I am completely isolated as I can only work part time and currently on holidays and no work for 6 weeks. This is because he tells me that we will have to move countries when he gets the ‘big deal’ for tax reasons so I cannot take a permanent job. I gave up my career and flat to move in with him.He said he would support me and marry me (but then said we could only marry if I didnt tell anyone including my mother so I had to say no). I have made friends in this new city after a long time but he sees them as potential conquests and just dominates the conversation and flirts with them. They all want me to leave him.
He travels overseas about once a week and refuses to maintain anything but one word txts and even says then I am too demanding. I tried to go on holiday without him but he called me constantly demanding to know who I was with (I was with no-one as I have some agoraphobia which has come up again in the last year or so). We travel a lot together but I usually have to remain in the hotel while he is out on business dinners etc which he always used to take me to but not anymore. He does insist that I do not go out on my own.
I have recently been longing for some company and I know it is my responsibility to organise that. I have purchased an online study programme. I have saved as much money as I can from what he gives me. But I feel tremendous guilt in seeing or even speaking to other people (including writing to you) as he says it is a betrayal.
I listen to codependence, anxiety, NPD, Gaia, on my computer to help me grow in confidence. I am trying to go back to the gym but he has been running down my body lately even though I know I have a great figure and have never had these comments in my life.
I love him very much. He is such a vulnerable person inside. My friends say he will never find anyone like me again but it doesnt ring true to me…actually I dont think he wants someone genuine…he seems to prefer one night stands and ‘porn girls’. But maybe the rehab will help with this.
He manipulates me with money, neglect, insults, but I cant speak to anyone who can influence him other than his brother and he ends up being manipulated into accepting his bad behaviour or explaining it away and attacking me too.
Ive wanted to write to you for ages. Im very scared of what he will say or do if he knows so its not my real name.
Thanks for any comments or words of advice. Ive just re-read this and realise how pathetic I sound. Actually I appear to everyone as super confident fun and intelligent but my reality is very different.
NPD has absolutley flawed me. Everytime I think I have a handle on my partners (or if you listen to him we would be ex partners) lies and manipulations he surprises me once again. He says we are finished but his actions are like he doesnt want to break up being nice working in around the house, having really good conversations etc. But this is only until I talk too much about our marriage or about apology or pinning him down to agree not to see other people while we go to couples councelling. Yes he agreed to go to couples councelling, then a few hours later reverted back to not wanting to be involved. I keep telling him speaking the truth about everthing free’s you. But he continues to lie about things that are not important and uses his families names in the lies. So last night he was reaing a text and I asked who it was from his answer was a family memeber so asked to read it, shock and surprise he gave me his phone. The text was not from his family but about a house he is buying. I confronted him about the reason for lying and his usual comment was/is I dont want to hurt you. What a joke when lying and then me finding out the truth is a double hurt and he cant get a grip of it. I then took the phone locked myself in the bathroom and read a couple of his text to his other women. He tells her he loves and misses her. Well then I rang her myself and told her as much as I could to warn her about him. I asked if she would meet me so I can explain better. I also told her that he will tell her that I am nuts. Actually I am positive that he tells her that I have problems and that is why he doesnt love me anymore. Well hopefully he gets this house and moves out. Though this morning he said might stay. Also he said that it will be a good thing us having a break and if I play my cards right he might let me come and visit him. Ha what a joke I said back its the other way around buddy. I will see how you behave and maybe I will contemplate if I will allow you anywhere near me. I know when he moves out I will cry and have told him that. But so what I am allowed to cry when I like and I hope it makes him feel uncomfortable. Then I will be able to start to get on with my life. If his new woman wont take on board what I tell her and to be carful to bad she will have to learn on her own. I just feel sad for my partner as he cannot heal his soul and become a real man instead of a lying manipulating scum. I feel it is too much of a challenge for him.
Thanks for giving me this opportunity to vent as it is hard telling other people about how much I love him as they all think Im nuts just like he tells peoople that I am.
Well, I took the big plunge after many many months of planning, praying and stomach issues, with God’s grace I left my NPD. I dropped him off at work and went back to our “room” in a house that we shared with his MOTHER. I had been asking for several months – no let’s make that 1.5 years when and how are we going to move. We are all aware of the verbal tactics that the NPD makes. I saw him for the first time in a week. I attempted to have a conversation with him that was just more of the same, useless and consistentlyu in circles. He never answers a question directly, just answers with another one..I felt as though I was trying to fix things again. It is incredible at how arrogantly prideful he is. This is why I left, so that I don’t have to live with his demeaning beavior. Now, to be strong and not fall for another guy like this.
I took the big step and left my NPD. Words cannot describe how free it feels to walk into my new place and take my shoes off.
My NPD and I have been together for 3.5 years and it has been horrible. I planned my move 8 months in advance so that I could be really prepared. I knew what his reaction was going to be, so I did not want to tell him until the last minute. I did finally mention my move to him and he proceeded to act like a 10 year old. Going to our friends to blast me for “leaving” him and how I was going to want him back. He is so smug and arrogant, I just want to smack his face so bad. It is incredible how he turned the whole move (we lived with his mother) as though I did something wrong to him. I can’t believe that I have to ask a grown man could we stop living at his mom’s house. I dropped him off at work, packed up and moved the same day.
I saw him last night for the first time since the move and he just did the usual NPD Q&A. I ask a question, he responds with a question. Just a major game. So done with him right now. I am wounded by NPD’s to the fact that I don’t even want to think about being involved.
I would like to read the poem “song of a male narcissist” I believe Steve wrote it. Could you please send it to me? I’ve gone through some very difficult times in the past several months. My ex is now getting married. Funny, in the 20 years we were together we never got married. He said I was after his money. He doesn’t have any money. I paid for everything. Anyway we never got married and now I see his hold on me was financial and he held the marriage over my head. But I have a very good therapist and am working on getting better at not being a co-dependent. Thanks, Jeanne
Hi all,
I am still working with my partner. I am trying hard every day, every moment to remember the four legged stool. I am finding the area of gap finding with him challenging. Currently, I am challenging him to be more affectionate, giving. As we’re constantly (in his mind, and I guess mine too) breaking up and making up, his showing of affection is seen by him as ‘making promises’ that I’ll ‘persecute’ him for later, when he decides to break up again. As in “why were you being affectionate/having sex/etc when you knew you were going to break up?”
We have been through so much in the last 2 of our 4 years together. I have made so many terrible terrible mistakes. And I still ocassionally do. I am prone to ’snapping’ and being crazy back when he starts the cycle of breaking up. Right now, I’m doing my best to concentrate on myself and handling that, but guys, it’s so hard sometimes in the face of this behaviour. To be blindsided and faced with life-changing decisions (do I need to leave my job as he’s my boss) every few weeks is so tiring. I’m exhausted all the time, despite trying to eat healthily, get the right amount of sleep.
How can I get him to be affectionate with me? How can I help him trust me again after all the crazy things I’ve done? How can I trust him after all of this? How can I stop myself from being sad when I think of this and letting it affect my behaviour in present.
Though I’m moaning, I really surprised myself last night be creating a really fun, relaxed environment when he came home last night (we’re not living together, I was staying over – my request). We had a lovely time but again – no sex, even though I tried. I feel lonely and sad when I’m not in the moment trying to create something great. Even in the midst of insane work deadlines and too much to do!
Please someone help with any suggestions. I’m at the stage where I’m ready throw away everything I’ve built, everything I’ve done simply through exhaustion. I am known by everyone who knows me as the strongest person they’re acquainted with. So, please, if anyone has any thoughts or time, I’d really appreciate your company and support.
Hi Tracy,
I can sympathize with you about what you’re going through. I have decided this process of “self-discovery” only about a month or so ago. I have been married to a N for 8 years now. It wasn’t until very recently that the lightbulb finally went off in my head.
This work IS COMPLETELY exhausting!!! I mean think about it. You’re trying to figure out your own personal issues, you’re trying to figure out how to manage yourself in a way that supports healthy behavior in your N, you’re trying to live a life, work, balance it all and learn a totally new way of thinking. Of course we’re exhausted!
It’s really hard for me to remember the 4 legged stool. This is advise I wanted to ask Kim about. I mean how do you give affection and build attachment when you find out that your N has engaged in completely hurtful and inappropriate behavior? This is where I keep getting caught up… I have a good handle on snipping and letting go of my anger to get to a better more productive place, but then I have to look at him, support him and love him when I am hurt angry and honestly disgusted. That is HARD for me.
But… like you said you are a strong person! I can relate. I tell myself that this is my situation in life because I can handle it. I truly believe that “god” does not hand us any situation that we could not handle. It soesn’t mean it is easy. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. But we are stronger than we have given ourselves credit for. You are going through a life changing experience. Keep on pushing through. It’s ok to take a “day off” from the constant emotional and mental experience and just be. I believe that anyway. To just recharge and remember that you are going through this journey to learn something very valuable to you in your life. Take a day if you can or a few hours to let go of the junk, let go of the emotional ties that bind you to the process. Let go and try to relax. Do you meditate? That is a great way to recharge.
Also, I ordered a book recommended by Kim called “Disarming the Narcissist” and it is a great tool at helping me focus on me. Stuff I needed to work on all my life. It really challenges you to think about your internal stuff that has kept you here stuck in this place for so long. It is quite liberating to acknowledge that you can let go of crap and junk that has no relevance to who you want to be now. Try that book it’s great!
I know exactly what you mean with the exhaustion. Again, think about what we’re trying to do here – it makes perfect sense that we would be so drained! Especially at the rate we’re trying to do it all. I don’t know about you but as soon as I got Kim’s guide I was on a mission!!! It’s like I couldn’t rest. Not with all this newfound information that I desperately wanted to apply to my life. I mean it was 24/7 reading, thinking, reflecting, journaling, studying, observing… It’s a process that I was so excited about I tired myself out pretty quick. And now I’ve come so far in such a short period of time but I’m tired! And doing so many things at the same time is REALLY hard! So maybe remembering it’s a process and not an overnight fix can help keep us balanced and centered and in the moment. I want to live in the moment, the here and now.
Hope you can find support in this
Try to unplug if you can and maybe that will help you recharge your batteries.
Good Luck!
Just to add, Kim and Steve and their advice have been the best thing I’ve ever stumbled on in my life. A million times better than therapy. Though my post above chronicles my woes, believe me, things are a million times better than they were before with my N partner – in my own head and in my interactions with him.
But this sort of process takes time, so please don’t take my moaning as anything but. I’m looking for ideas and people to converse with others who know this programme or follow this philosophy. There are real truths here and real results for the better – for the INDIVIDUAL as well as the relationship, ANY relationship in fact – not just those involving narcisissm.
I am so new to this also. I have tben trying some of the methods and they do work but then some don’t, like when I don’t want to have him raging at me, I still don’t know how to get away from him. I do feel better about myself though but wish I see him for waht he really is and not what I want him to be. I feel that is the main problem for all of us. We want what we want and don’t know when to give up. There must be other men out there that don’t need all this attention and draining energy to get along.
Thank you for the kind words of support Allison!
You are very right, I too go full steam ahead with this process as I could see immediate results and others which will take longer and require much more focus on MYSELF. This self-improvement is what will eventually lead to substantial and sustainable results. It is when I forget the elements of taking care of developing myself that things begin to sour.
Trisha, I am sorry you are so fed up. Please know that the process takes as long as it takes. Please know that we attract these individuals into our lives to unveil the parts of ourselves that need healing. I am not recommending that someone stay with someone whom they don’t want to. I can, however, honestly tell you that the step by step instructions Kim and Steve give on limiting abuse NEED to be followed to the letter.
Go to the police station during the day and speak to a Domestic Violence officer, start a file, find out from your local government any resources available for those suffering DV. Make a support network. Y
Sorry, posted above before completing!
The support network you build will be vital THE VERY NEXT TIME your partner rages. If you approach these people in the way Kim describes in her literature (being ‘professional’, un-emotional, logical and showing utmost concern for your partner’s well being and YOUR well being) you will be surprised to find that emotional abuse is a crime that is just as damaging as physical abuse. If you don’t find these people the first time,keep networking and find them. We have a free phone helpline here in the UK, and I remember the first time I rang. I shook like a leaf when someone on the other end of the phone confirmed that what I was experiencing was in fact abuse and that I was justified in taking action against it. I felt an immense lifting of a weight and an excitement about being somewhat supported, even via telephone.
You say you cannot escape your partner’s rages. The next time he does, if you follow the steps, you will be able to either calmly walk away and tell him you’ll speak when he calms down, OR you’ll be able to pick up a phone and show him that what he is doing is wrong and not sanctioned by our society or community. As Kim says, it only takes a few times to make the point.
The first time I did this, my partner immediately calmed and went quiet while I spoke in low tones to the officer who had my case number. He knew that I was no longer going to tolerate this behaviour. Unfortunatly, his first response on hanging up the phone was to physically pick me up and put me outside his home (and push me as he set me down – not hard, but enough to make the point). As I wasn’t expecting this amount of rage, I reacted and we argued and the point was somewhat diluted. I should have simply turned to him and said “I’ll speak to you when you calm down” and walked home. (it was very late and I’d had a few cocktails, so my thinking wasn’t as clear as it could have been). Next time, I’ll phone the police.
Don’t be afraid if he says “I can’t have a relationship that involves police calls and police reports”. Just say, with a genuine (NOT MEAN, SMIRKY) smile while “Well, we won’t have to do that again if there isn’t anything to warrant it”. He won’t like it at all, and may chew over it and push you away for a while. But in his heart, he will know that he’s backed himself into a corner and won’t have the smarts or the stamina to fight forever.
BUT YOU HAVE TO BE STRONG AND CLEAR! And forgive yourself if you don’t get it right all the time and backslide yourself. However, the more consistent you can be in your approach, the more trust you build. Remember, whatever this leads you to in your life, you will walk away a stronger person with better boundaries.
Stop protecting him from the consequences of raging. Stop protecting him over your sanity and your peace of mind. Start acting.
Good luck! We’re all with you!
Well here I go again on the npd roundabout. Last post my patner was not going to couples councelling and for the whole week it was off then on then off again. We ended up going and much to my distress he said that he just wanted it for closure but couples break up and get back together all the time. He then could not take any more of me saying he should stop bringing up my past that he had nothing to do with like when I was 17 or 18 I didnt even know him and he was just justifying his present behavior, so he walked out of the councelling session. On the way home he spoke about the session which the councellor said I should not but he brought it up. I ended up in tears (whats new) I then got changed and he asked where I was going and I replied I could not go anywhere in my state and I was going to hacksaw ( fixing and old bbq) He then knocked me over with a feather and said he wanted to reconcile???? I think he has hit rock bottom as he said he wanted me to show him what I have been learning as Im a smarty pants. Well we will see how he goes. Though he could change his mind again as he doesnt like any rules. Like stop texting that woman or any woman start building trust stop lying and decieving only time will tell and I will pray that he is given the strength to achieve these challenges.
Thank you so much Tracy, I will continue to follow the steps. Right now we are in the good period but I know what will be coming. I was wondering if anyone has problems with children coming a problem? He as two daughters from a previous marriage that he sees every Sunday. They now do not want to come over to my house for Sunday visits. Their reason is that my daughter had said something at school and they cannot forgive her and thus do not want to come over. This has caused much conflict. He is taking the attitude fine, he invites them over and if they choose not to come fine, he still comes over to my house and thus does not visit them. His mother has now gotten involved, (he lives with her) and has taken over his visitation. She picks them up and takes them home even when he isn’t around and at my home. It is like he is letting someone else do his work for him. I don’t know how to react, I haven’t said anything because to be honest when they were coming over they had such attitudes that a person never knew when it was going to be a good day or a bad one. I feel that they don’t want to bother with us and don’t respect us as a couple and I don’t blame them, but should anything be said and by whome?
Trisha
I have to thank Kim and Steve also.While I don’t know if the program will work,I amd just at the beginning of putting it into practice, I do know that I have regained my self respect.
My biggest issue is getting over the horrible things he has done and is still doing.(I managed to put a lot of them behind me).
I can’t seem to get over the pain and anger of him telling all sorts of people that I am crazy, insane, paranoid, mentally ill, hormonal, having a breakdown etc.(This is continuing) Then he encourage them – total strangers- to contribute their own nastiness about me.( they analyze me and decide I am feeling old, incapable, paranoid, and I’m a nobody and therefore jealous of him.(He doesn’t know I have copies of all the nasty e-mails)
So a couple of these “friends” of his went way to far, and I told them (via e-mail) to stop or I would investigate a suit for defamation. When he found out he said “How dare I say this to them?”
Obviously my response was how darte they do this to me, and how dare he let them and even encourage them.
But darn it hurts like heck.
How do I get past that hurt? And put the greet him warmly plan into effect?
Oh, there is another wrinkle that is difficult- my N gets almost all of his N supply over the internet- talking to all these “friends” (lots of women)via e-mail and Facebook. Generally I don’t even have access to his computer as it is pass word protected.
How is it that I get these people- who disrespect me so badly – how do I get them out of our lives (house) as Kim advises?
Hi Becky,
I too share your concern about getting the supply from the internet and social networking sites. I recenly found my husband’s name connected to a whole bunch of sites I’d never even heard of. He has actually blocked me off his facebook (and all my friends) so I can be kept in the dark… I too wonder the same thing about getting that out of our lives because my husband has just started a business and uses these sites as tools for networking and promoting the business as WELL as padding his ego in the process of reconnecting with as many people from his past as possible. It’s like he’s on a mission. I’d love feedback to that question too if anyone has it?????????
I’m glad that someone else has the same problem, although I am sure it is not at all unique in this day and age. The internet was made for an N and opens a whole new world of N Supply.
Fortunately my husband did not block me from FB- so for one woman that I knew he was coresponding with privately (and she was putting me down in private e-mails)- I just sent her a very nice comment asking how she was doing when she posted on his FB site.
She had a hissy fit about me responding to her comment and deleted him as her friend.
Whoa, I sure felt that was a triumph.I’m still laughing over it.(poor delusional whiny woman)
He jumped all over me of course. But really I had been perfectly polite- so what could anyone say?
One small step for man etc etc:>)
The others are more difficult, because I don’t have an easy(safe) go at them.
One(a total stranger to me) said a lot of vile things about me to him so I sent her an e-mail threatening a defamation lawsuit if she didn’t stop. I’m not sure it did stop her, but it sure made her think:>)( especially since she sent the vile e-mails about me on her work computer.)
Oh, we all know that when he finds out- he will be furious. Oh well, what can he do? I was very very careful not to defame him.
I hope it’s a pretty hard slap on the wrist for his bad behavior (all thewhile I am smiling benignly)- at least that is the theory.
Let me know if you come up with another avenue- since you apparently don’t have as much access as I managed ( at least until he figures it out)
Kim and Steve- please get spell check on this blog, I’m a horrible typist.
help!my bf of 7 years must be a N, but the last 2 years its getting worse.he is acting so weird!he breaks up with me, the next day he comes back saying he cant do without me!he is always criticizing me (my looks,my clothes,my behavior)but if you do that to him he gets defensive or insulted.he gets mad for minor things, next he says i am sorry.he tells me to be more assertive and tell him what i want or like, but when I do he calls me selfish or its my way or the high way or that i am nagging.he wont call me for days and if i complain the answer is I called you to talk to you and you are nagging.I call him and he says I call him too often, I dont call him and he is complaining why I didnt call him. He tells me to make suggestions on how to have more fun together or new places to go, and when I do, he is either too tired or too bored.I am always trying to please him and he is never satisfied.He has problems at work,I know and I am trying to be supportive, he has issues at home as well, he admitted lately that he is afraid of his father and his bad ways, but I am thinking he is starting to look like his father.I love him and I want to help him but it seems nothing I can do is ever enough.He is acting really selfish most of the time.I dont know what to do anymore.I am a very caring person, my friends all tell me to leave him because he is taking advantage of me and I too good for him, but I cant because I have seen good things in him,(he is caring, thoughtfull, compasionate, but to everybody else except me).His friends and co workers always tell of what a great guy he is and I cant understand he acts indiferrent to me?I had my share of mistakes in this relationship, chasing him when he needed space and all that, but I just wanted him to be nice to me and I needed answers about his behavior.I feel our time is running out.From what I read in your posts, I think he kinda keeps a distance from me because he doesnt trust and respect me as a strong willed person, he sees my good natured character as a weakness, maybe my sensitivities and insecurities remind him of his insecurities and he hates that.I don t know.I was always a very good nature person,calm and serious, I cant change who I am, why cant he accept that, and if he didnt like it why would he stay with me for so many years?If I was a weak person I wouldnt be around him for so long, struggling for this relationship to work.Please help!Any suggestions?sorry for the ranting I am going crazy here!
Kim and Steve,
I wish you all the best and I am sorry for the long post.You are my last hope.I forgot to mention, we are not living together, each one of us live with our parents, we’been talking about moving together for the last couple of years but always something comes up, I think our biggest problem is that he doesnt trust me enough and I am always afraid of his ever changing moods and bad temper.he doesnt have any close friends I can talk to, and I have no one to help me with this!
Hi all. I’ve been reading posts for some time now. I have been with my N BF for about 2 1/2 years. I don’t think he’s full blown NPD, but definitely on that track. He pursued me in the beginning because he knew I was going through a hard time in my life and then when he convinced me to move across the country, give up my business and all my friends (money too) he turned into a jerk. All the same stuff you all are saying. I got Kim and Steve’s book and the workbook and have been studying for about 2 months now and it definitely has turned my life around for the better. I’ve changed, so the situation has changed. I got myself back. However, there are still lingering things that he does like internet porn, flirting and sneaking around that I try to handle in an “adult” way, but find it really hard. Like Allison and others I am EXHAUSTED!! I’m trying to take time for myself, but I find myself catering to him sometimes because he’s jealous and doesn’t trust me (even though I’ve never given him any reason not to)so I still find myself explaining who I’m talking to on the phone and I haven’t been on the internet in quite awhile. I’m only on now because I told him to go do something with his daughter. Anyway, I’m having a problem dealing with when I actually catch him red handed doing something that crosses my boundaries. How am I supposed to react? I’ve tried the calm “we’ll discuss it later” approach and he actually likes it because he’s pretty sure I’ll forget about it later. I’m trying to be introspective about this and maybe I’m just being impatient with the process. He has definitely made improvements. I guess my biggest thing that I find myself dealing with is the sex/porn stuff. He witheld sex for a long time (control)because he knew I liked it. I act like I don’t care about it now (not true) and it’s taken the focus off of it, but I’m not sure if that’s the right thing to do either. He still goes on the internet. He’s also very distracted during sex. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks.
Congratulations on at least some progress. It is far more than I have accomplished.
But I understand how he would like the process of you walking away when he crosses your boundaries. My husband apparently thinks its weakness and then just attacks with more vigor.And since I told him I was not going to divorce him, he too thinks that is weakness and now threatens divorce at every turn thinking it will scare me into silence.That and he is conducting a very vile smear campaign. Oh well, I will deal with that too.
Remaining calm is difficult.But it sounds like you are doing a bang up job.
But you know what, thinking about it- is there anything wrong with letting him actually like the new process? I know it galls you- but you will bring the boundary thing up later I’m sure. So why should you deep down really care? Bring the issue up later and follow your program because it sure sounds like you are on the right path.
Good luck, and thanks for making me think too.
do es anyone have any advice for dealing with an N mother and do your books cover this?
Hi Bob,
I believe you can still use all of Kim & Steve’s material, but because your relationship with your mother is not a romantic one, you will need to modify the wording of many of their resources for your needs. For example in their “Resolving a Fight in Progress” change the words “partner” to “mother”, and “you want a divorce or separate” to “you never want to have anything to do with her again” and pencil in any other wording to suit a mother-son relationship.
Try this exercise first, print out the 12 points of “Resolving a Fight in Progress” and modify the wording to suit your Mother-Son relationship. I treat these 12 points like they are my 12 commandments not only in my romantic relationship, but also in everyday life. It is important to embrace these 12 points immediately.
In reaching out for help you obviously love your mother and want a loving healthy relationship with her. Start by breaking down the walls she, and maybe you also, have built up by disarming her (and you) each time you see her, greet her warmly saying her name and with a smile like you are genuinely pleased to see her. If you already do this, give her a warm loving hug as well. This has been one of the most powerful forces in overcoming the difficulties in my relationship. No doubt your mother is hurting and does not trust anyone, and she may not trust this at first, but persist and it will be rewarding.
Good luck and stay in touch,
Cheers,
CD Australia.
I have a question. What are the 12 points of “Resolving a fight in progress”? I really need these desperately. I am tired of the pattern that I am in with my partner. Even though we are not married I am so tired of what we have and thinking that I don’t need this partnership anymore. I feel it is starting to affect my health. I am willing to try all before saying goodbye. Please send this to me so I can start hopefully to fix things. Thanks Trisha
Hi Trisha,
The page you are asking about is here,
http://www.thelovesafetynet.com/The_Emergency_Room.html
Resolving conflict may take some time, all of the steps in our eBooks will contribute to a reasonable solution, I hope this page helps you.
Steve.
Hi Becky and Allison, so sorry to take so long to reply.
I guess the most obvious point to make here is to bring up our favourite topic of attachment.
If your b/fs are putting more energy into the attachments on the internet than they are into you, you have a serious problem that cannot be ignored. First step, is to build some rapport and trust with him. Show him that you care about him – and more importantly, care about yourself. You will be self-soothing and building your own confidence with the (sometimes) simple steps found in the Love Safety Net workbook.
Once you have built some trust and rapport with him, you can challenge him to move away from the immature and childish peer attachments that social networking sites provide. He is only putting energy into it because he gets a buzz from the attention, and feels that it is OK. From what you are saying it is not OK with you, right? If you have established a good rapport, you can show, (rather than explain with too many words) your disappointment with his reliance on the internet for attention.
This is never an easy step, and you may find that if you have taken a step forward, two steps back are just around the corner. Don’t give up too quick, if you fell it is worth it….
Kim and I have just entered the world of social networking, and it looks like it can be very demanding of one’s time. We are getting involved in social networking on a professional level, but I am not sure how it works on a personal level for couples, especially when there is little trust within the relationship.
This problem is a moving target for us, as social networking becomes more and more established. We have a few ideas on what steps to take to limit the juvenile behavior that your boys are displaying. Kim has made previous entries that have more specific details. These pieces of advice from Kim require courage and valor, as Kim has displayed in the past.
I hope you two have some success.
Steve
I have a twenty year old daughter that has been diagnosed with mild NPD. I found your site 9 months ago and ordered your books which have been very helpful. I have five children, three who are grown and on their own. We all spend alot of time together as family and are very close. I really am so concerned as why this daughter has NPD and none of the others do. She seems to have gotten it after a head injury, but to tell you the truth she has always been different from my other kids and seemed to have obsessive traits as a child. She is living at home after attending college and is working full time. She is also in a committed relationship with a truly wonderful man. I see her starting to give this poor guy the “treatment” and have given him your website address. He is reading and learning all he can so he does not “feed” her NPD. I am sick at heart and wonder if she will ever be really cured of NPD or will she just learn to control herself. She drives so many people who love her away by her constant demands for perfection. Why are my other kids ok and she has NPD? What the heck happened??? I ask myself this question every day. Do you have many parents asking you the same questions?
How’s it been going Becky?
I’m having a crazy couple of weeks. As soon as I needed to bring up something I had to discuss with my husband (not to his liking of course) he vanished. We had a great couple of days and then all of the sudden when I brought up a topic (after building attachment) of our financial situation and some decisions we need to make TOGETHER, he went MIA. He had a meeting that night and although we made a plan to discuss the budget, finances, work plans… he didn’t come home till after midnight. No call, no communication letting me know he wasn’t going to make it. Of course that really pissed me off but I did my best not to get angry, I did cry though. I told him it wasn’t ok, I told him he hurt me and it made me angry that he was disrespectful and inconsiderate. He did his best to try and provoke me by telling me didn’t do anything wrong… I walked away. That was a week ago. He has been testing me ever since. He has put me down, he has broken a committment to the children, he has done a number of childish things that are all a part of keeping us apart, pissing me off, and hurting me.
I felt like a different person 2 weeks ago… what happened? I feel like I can’t win. If this cycle goes on and on and the narcissist doesn’t change – how in god’s name can we work this program? When does it change? I’m weak all over again……
Glad to say I’m having a better day. I realize that not having the time in the day (with the kids at home and the N unavailable for assistance) to myself to read, review the program, journal, self-sooth – I am overwhelmed and emotionally charged. I just sat down to reflect what changed over the past few weeks and “time” is what changed. I had time a few weeks ago. The N was still behaving badly but my response to the bad behavior was definitely quite different. I had time each day to myself to do the work I needed to do. Now that my time is spoken for I have been less patient, more sad & started to become hopeless…
I am going to do my best to get back on track here and remember that it is a process.
Allison
Alsion,
Boy can I relate. I wonder if the program is just all about not getting mad or reacting. It seems to me but I myself have a hard time doing this. My boyfriend doesn’t trust anything I say. If I tell him I have to take my daughter to an eye appointment, and I do, do that, when I get home and tell him I am home he accused me of not going and that it took too long!!!! I am so frustrated and defensive. Am I doing something wrong when I defend myself or “prove” that indead I was there or just tell him the truth and if he believes something else just let him?? If someone can answer that question I will know how to react. Thank you so much.
Alsion,
Glad to hear you are doing better. I better start learning how to self sooth because no one else is doing this for me. Between my 14 year old daughter and my boyfriend it feels like they are a tag team. Do I just ignore the yelling. He even yells about my daughter and how I parent her. He doesn’t parent his own,(divorce) yet feels the need to yell about my daughter. I am already shaky on how to be a parent to a teenager and he is undermining my confidence I had or the little I did have. Any suggestions? Thanks.
kim and steve,
I have just bought your ebook, I had just the time to have a quick glance at it, and I would like to ask for a big favor. Could you please give us some advice on how to practice your guide into long term relationships (7 years), but not living together? your books are great but somethings are hard to do if you are not living together and you are not married or have kids, and you dont have access to his things or his whereabouts or his friends.Any advice would be useful.Please help!I am desperate.I feel like I am losing my boyfriend to his N.
Dear Kim and Steve,
or he is completely bored of me!(sigh).Any help would do.Thanks
Hi Trisha,
How are things going? Sorry… it’s so hard to get time, I haven’t been able to respond. I just re read your post about the “proving” where you are. I would consider that you might not even have to get into it with him. If he chooses not to believe you after you’ve given him a logical ezplanation he probably is just trying to provoke you into anger and frustration which might cause you to lose your cool and therfore he can take the blame off of himself and use you as the scapegoat of his anger.
I’m just getting back on track with this after a terrible week last week! It takes 2 to fight, and most likely he wants a fight. If you keep your cool and remember your magic scissors and try to use the language with yourself like, “I’ve told you where I was, if you choose not to believe me that’s fine, but we don’t need to go back and forth on this issue.” or if he starts yelling at you because you’re not letting him fight you, “I feel afraid when you yell at me that way, I’m going to leave the house (with your daughter if she’s involved) and let you have some time to cool off.”
It is LARGELY about learning NOT to give in to the tantrums. I know this is hard, especially when you feel that someone is wronging you, or really making your blood boil by saying crazy things which seem just to be said to piss you off. You need to learn how to talk to yourself about how it is NOT you, he has a problem and is trying to use you to take the emphasis off of himself. DO NOT PROTECT him by being his scapegoat.
This is still very difficult for me. Especially with the stresses of life, (as if that’s not enough). I lost it a week ago and felt lost. I realizes that without time to work “my program” and personal development I began blaming him again and getting really mad at teh way my life is going.
I was able to regroup with help from my support network and get some time to myself to recharge. You need to remind yourself constantly of how you are in charge of your life, and you can make changes that will make you feel better each day.
You will not be perfect, you will fall and question whether or not you want to get back up. But you can make your life better (with or without him in it). Now is the time to build strength and courage. If you’ve been in this relationship you already know you have courage and strength! Now you just need to use it for yourself!!!
Try to walk away from his abusive comments try not to feed into his constant questioning of you and your where abouts. This is a distructive pattern that most likely only leads to your abuse. Try to leave the house. Try to do it while honestly telling him that you care about him but you do not care to participate in the abuse because it in not productive.
I have already seen my husband behave differently through a couple months of reminding him I will not engage in abusive and intimidating confrontations. I don’t have it down to a science, and he certainly is misbehaving when he feels stifled; but I FEEL BETTER! I FEEL STRONGER! I am aware of a whole new situation. I don’t walk away from the fight feeling hopeless and depressed. I don’t question my sanity or what I did wrong. I don’t cry all day and wonder what I did to deserve this A-hole treating me like trash. When I walk away I feel in charge of my destiny. If he chooses to hurt me afterward because I won’t engage him in the fight (which is where we are now) I know what’s going on. I still feel proud of myself because I know I’m going to be ok. NOT EASY!!! At all. But worth every minute I get stronger and gain my self esteem back!!!!
Good luck,
Allison
Oh Allison,
I wish I could put you in my pocket and have you coach me on what to say and how to say it!!! Thank you for you wisdom. It is hard not to fight, and he is very driven when he wants to fight. He will say anything to get me going. I will take your words to heart, in fact I will reread your comments to get them in my head. I just hate it when I second guess myself and wonder if I am really the problem. I know I am not but still at the time and after the war I sit back and think and wonder what now. Thank you so much, you have helped me. Trisha.
Awesome Allison!
Isn’t it the most wonderful feeling – beginning to believe in yourself by forgiving, loving and accepting yourself again? It is so empowering! You bought tears of joy to my eyes! You are clearly demonstrating how much you have learned so far, and how you are letting go of pointless guilt, blame, anger and resentment in the face of adversity by turning your strength, energy and focus towards achieving a healthy outcome for your relationship and your family, all the while realising there may be setbacks (which are really opportunities for us to get centred and back on track again as you have just done!).
What a great example you are setting for your daughters, they will be witnessing and learning from your growth in strength, courage & hope!
Over the years I have been collecting, or creating my own, what I call my valuable “Precious Pearls of Wisdom” which help keep me on track, and I would like to share three of them today with you, and anyone else who may find them as valuable and empowering as I have.
“I am not powerless over myself, and the way I act and react. This is, in itself, a power that can work miracles in changing the attitudes of others.”
Anonymous
“What can words do to me unless I take them to heart?”
Anonymous
“I lived in an emotional prison with bars made of guilt, anger, resentment, self-pity and bitterness until I realized that my prison unlocked from the inside and I held the key.”
CD
Well done, Good Luck & Stay in Touch,
Cheers,
CD, Australia
Your quite welcome Trisha!
I am glad to be able to provide some help and encouragement! God knows I reach out for it desperately when I need a reminder myself! The truth is some days you can feel like you’ve really got a grip on it, and other days (which can be the very next day!) you wonder if you’ll make it through the next battle without completely crumbling and losing yourself all over again… At least in the beginning I suspect.
Just hang in there, and be good to yourself. Forgive yourself when you make a mistake, and get back up and try again. Love yourself always and try to learn new ways to get what you want and need. When you start to reject his tantrums regularly (although he might behave badly due to his confusion of the different reaction) you will find you get a little piece of you back. A small but very real bit of self respect and strength that you will build on day by day. As you grow to feel more confident that you can use the “magic scissors” regularly you will get an amazing feeling of satisfaction with yourself and pride in your massive accomplishment. Just think of all the years you’ve spent waiting for someone else to make it right… for me it was since my first relationship as a teen!!!! Just the little bit of responsibility I gave myself to take charge and make myself happy has made WORLDS of change.
I KNOW it’s really really hard, especially when you have someone provoking you and taunting you – it’s the worst temptation and you want the release of screaming out loud to “LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!!!” Trust me, I know, all too well. You are stronger than you know, you can learn in the moment to let it go. EVEN though it seems impossible, you can do it. And you will be so happy that you did!
I’m sure I’ll need your support at some point and I’m sure you’ll be there to do the same for me and others. We are all here for eachother – Thank god for that!
Allison
Thank you CD!!! I love being able to come here for support and encouragement. And I love being able to return the favor to others. And I LOVE KIM & STEVE for making this possible for me.
Thank you for sharing your “precious pearls of wisdom” they are very thoughful, so true, and definately apply to us here!
It means a lot to me that you have pointed out my effort and benefit it will have for my children. That is the most important thing to me! I really want to be the most positive role model I can – and for a long too many years I simply fell short. I feel very thankful and hopeful that I can turn it all around
THANK YOU!
Allison
I was just reading my email post from the lady who said she wishes she could put Kim in her pocket.
I’ve been married to a Narcissist for 23 years now, and I can tell you that I pick my battles with him. He generally tries to set me off about the stupidest things, and then he gets upset if I don’t react in anger, yet when I do blow up, he will say “calm dowwwwn…why do you have to get so angry all the time?” Unfortunately, my children have seen years of this stuff and they tend to join with him in his attacks against me. It is sometimes hard to really like my own daughters because they are so deceived by him against me.
All I know is, no matter how he hates it, DO NOT REACT to him. Simply remember that his brain is misprogrammed at this time, and, due to “faulty-wiring” he can only behave according to the “chip” that he had inserted years ago. In my case, this means I need to see my husband as a scared, upset little 7-14 year old. Difficult, unfair, but TRUE
Hi all!
I bought the book “Disarming the Narcissist” by Wendy T. Behary. I have to say it was brilliant for helping me discover some of my own issues and contributions to the dysfunctional relationships that I have had (before I ever met my husband) for my entire adult life….
This book really started me on my way. And has totally challenged me to recreate my thoughts, ideas, and reactions as related to the here adn NOW!
Trisha, I suggest you pick it up. It’s not a huge book that’s hard to read. You’ll probably find you don’t want to put it down!
Just a suggestion
Allison
Allison,
Thank you for the suggestion!!! I have already written the title and author down for my next trip to Barnes and Noble. I love to read and this will I am sure add to my information on how to deal with the issues I am facing. I do need to get strong though and not get so dissappointed in the set backs. Right now things are great and I feel myself falling for the nice person even though I know in my heart it will not last but I still have that hope and that is what gets me in trouble every time. I feel like a fool for even thinking it could (the nice part) last. Hopefully I will learn from this book how to not have so many events of the up and downs. Thank you, you give me hope and I don’t feel so all alone. I do have a daughter that seems to be learning from him (bad part) and between them I sometimes feel beaten down. But I am stronger than that I will survive!!!
I love you for all your comfort and will be there for you also.
Trisha
Can anyone help me? After a series of failed relationships, and having been on my own for six years, I thought I had met the man of my dreams five and a half years ago. I was then 54 and he was 50. After about 18months I started to realise that things were not right, but couldn’t leave him, even though he would often treat me disrepectfully and I suspected he was seeing other women. My suspicions have now been confirmed that he is a cheat, and in desperation I researched until I discovered Narcissism and Codependency and realised the awful truth that this describes us perfectly. I have tried to leave several times, but always break down. He has now promised me that he wants to change, but I realise that, if I want the relationship to continue (at least for now) I am going to have to implement your programme, and that I cannot expect miracles. I have asked my Doctor to refer me for psychotherapy (I know my man wouldn’t entertain the idea as he is so much smarter than any therapist!) as I realise I need help for my own codependency as much as he does for his narcissism. My biggest problem is that we don’t live together, although we see each other almost every day. This has suited me somewhat, although it has obviously suited him more as he has so much freedom to cheat if he wants to. I have confronted him with his cheating and he has admitted everything and begged me to forgive him. I have told him that I won’t leave him, but obviously won’t tolerate him being unfaithful. My question is, how do I impose consequences if I discover another affair when I have no access to his computer (I know he visits porn sites). Is this advice only for married couples or people who live together? I’m 60 now, and don’t want to start seeking another relationship. He has many good points and we are very close in many ways. Any suggestions?
To Linda,
I can relate to a few of your situations, such as the time together, not living together, the age and even the good points. I have even gotten so far as to question my own self and if I am really right or sane. I as of yet I don’t suspect him of cheatiung but you never know. So my words to you are not so much to give you answers but to ask yourself some questions about what you really have. Have you ever looked around at other women and seen the difference in some of them, such as their faces and expressions? I don’t care how old a person is or how they age but some women just have a certain happiness about them and I feel that is due to a happy union. I know of women who are in unions where the husband or boyfriend cheat, others know, they even know!!! But, they still are with them and their posture, facial expression and even how they act with others tell the story of what they live with has done to them. I want for myself to be one of the women who look happy, and content even if that means not having someone because the stress of someone who is like that can be damaging in so many ways and I am sorry it is just not worth it. Also, I feel that it is just not up to one person to care about what is going on in a union. Isn’t it better if both are involved in making it the best it can be, rather than letting one person always shoulder everything, take things and be the better person but still keep taking the junk just to say they are with someone they love?? If children are around that is different, but if like myself it is just the two of you, why not have a union that is good for both? Please write back to me, someone, maybe I am getting fed up and tired of trying.
Steve, can you help with this…
ANYONE, I could really use some feedback!!!!
Question… ok, so my husband has struggled over the past year (and then some) with finding the right business opportunity to earn cash. Our financial situation is a massive struggle and our daughter who goes to private school is about to lose the opportunity ot stay there if we don’t figure it out. I have recently began to study online income opportunities to help. He continuously comes up with new ideas (I just counted over 15) without following through on any of them enough to make real progress. He obviously has huge issues of instant gratification. But how do I talk to him about my opposition to the latest idea because I’ve had enough. He doesn’t believe I have a say WHAT SO EVER in how he conducts his business because it’s HIS career and separate of me. I believe he affects our family ever time he wastes time and money and doesn’t follow through.
HOW can I talk to him sensibly? Is it all all possible… what do I do? Do I just watch him do this until he gets it right? Do I do my best to get myself back into work (I haven’t worked for 5 years) and try to keep us alive? Do I ask someone else to talk to him? I feal that he will go through this ritual until it all comes crashing down and we lose our house, and all the rest of it. Help. I NEED some advise here. He won’t listen to me from the position of a caring and concerned partner. He won’t even listen to some of the other positive forces in his life who have told him to pick a focus and make it happen.
I’m tired of fighting this. I can NOT win the battle over what is reality and what is not here.
Please give some advise!!!
Allison,
You could have signed with my name because it is identical to my situation. I have been married over 30 years and we have floundered and lived in unbelievable circumstances while I “supported” him with his ideas. Everything you said fit ours, I had no say because it was his business, although boy did he let me do the accounting and tax work and grunt clean up work on his home remodeling projects, and on and on. In the end, he told me that I never supported him in anything that he has done or tried, (Not even when I didn’t balk at the 700,000 of debt he has gotten us into.) The message I want to give you, is that if he is like my man, you can NOT count on him changing. I wanted to stay home with my babies and so I lived in the depths of (I can’t even describe what I lived through) so that I could raise my babies. And that was invaluable, but when the youngest one was old enough I have gone to work and given us the security and grounding that our family needed. He still scoffs my efforts, but at least now I have car insurance and food on the table regularly. I had to provide it because he couldn’t or wouldn’t. You have to decide, but I would NOT bank on him changing.
Cathy
In my case, my husband was into “get rich quick” schemes, and would spend money on every pamphlet that came through the mail promising riches! Soon we were in debt past our eyeballs and are still digging our way out of the debt!
He was so convinced that he was the next millionaire-to-be, but all it did was cost time and money and energy. Eventually he went back out to a “real” job, thank GOd for that!
Now when he gets all excited about some new home-based biz, my feelers come out and I look at him and say “FORGET IT!” (generally, I was the one who was responsible for making these businesses work and when they didn’t, I was also the one to blame for it. no thank you!)
Thanks Cathy & Laura for the feedback! I don’t know how to approach this right now though… what do I say to him to keep us from going down this path. If I fight too hard he lashes out and misbehaves, if I support the ideas he fails anyway (thus feeling worse, I’m sure). I want to do the right thing. I am a stay at home mom and don’t have the basis to earn his “respect” as I’m not bringing in any cash, and realistically can’t (significantly) any time soon anyway…
How do I address this right now?
Thanks!!!
OK Allison, this is something I wish I had known YEARS ago. I have power. I cowed when he went into his violent mode and blame mode and retaliation mode. After I stopped taking it I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears. He backed off. Kim’s methods work great. Don’t put up with it, zero tolerance, be kind but say the dialogue, “I won’t have a conversation with you right now when you are trying to bully me” or whatever version you come up with. Then, stand up for what you feel is right. Go ahead and say no to his ideas, be firm and say we are not doing that. When he lashes out, and he will by the way, you tell him you won’t tolerate that behavior. You have the power and he will give it to you, watch this work, it is amazing.
The textbooks say that you don’t have any basis for his respect because you are not bringing in cash. This is the textbooks. You need to know in yourself that you are worthy or respect and then demand that. You bring in PLENTY or worth to your family staying home and giving care to your family. That is worth ten times what any paycheck brings. You know that, you remember that, and zero tolerance for any action that demeans you or doesn’t give you the respect, consideration that any human being deserves.
Now go to the mattresses!!!
Cathy
Although I don’t have a definite answer for you about what to do regarding your husband’s endeavors, I will assure you of something.
Don’t get down on yourself for not having a job and cash coming in. If your husband is anything like mine, if you worked outside the home, he’d be complaining that you weren’t home to take care of him and the house. If you don’t work, he’d complain about you not bringing in money. If he’s a true N, there isn’t much use in falling over yourself trying to please him.
Find a hobby, a support group, some friends, and take care of YOU…seriously. Just stay stable yourself because he’s going to do whatever he’s going to do regardless…his brain is just geared that way.
perhaps the fine couple that sponsors this group could give better advice than I did. I imagine so.
Thanks again Cathy & Laura!!!
I know what I need to do. I realize that my biggest issue here is fear. I am afraid of what he will do to retaliate against me, against my firm disapproval of a “new” money making opportunity. I know he will lash out agianst me – the last time this happened (a month or so ago) he decided to break a commitment and contact someone (a N supplier) he agreed not to. So I’m afraid of how the ball will drop on me. It appears that I am trying to avoid it by pretending that going along with something that makes no sense for our family (him included) will maybe be ok.
Thanks for the quick dose back to reality! I will stand my ground, as I have EVERY SANE right to. I will not tolerate being bullied, or put down. And the best I can do is prepare myself for however he plans to lash out agianst me. I will remind myself that I can handle it, I have before. And I will practice work on how to address what to do when the boundaries get crossed… because I know that’s what I’m in for. But I also know I will be ok, I will be strong and I will not waiver
Thanks ladies,
You really helped!!!!
xoxo
Hey Allison!
It was nice hearing such a positive reply from you here. I just finished answering a question about psychoanalysis regarding childhood/adulthood, so it was a nice reprieve to come read something so wonderful after all that intense focus!
(I’m working toward my Bachelors in Psych)
Remember, Allison, we are here for you if the stuff hits the fan. I will also be praying for a favorable response of him to you. I know what you are going through. Keep us updated, hon.
Blessya,
~Laura
I really need some advice.I have been listening to your radio show I tried to go to your blog but cannot get into it.
My husband of 31 years and I have been separated for the last 10 years. He has come back several times to want to start again but keeps leaving. He was living in Mexico and now he is in the states and unfortunately has gone back and forth. There have been immoral behaviors. Right now he has been here in the states about a year and a half. He was in the home at first and right now is renting a room. we are talking and go out together once in a while. He is in the states because he has to be. He didn’t come to be with his family. I would like to heal our marriage. this is not his goal. His goal is to eventually go back and live with this other woman (who is there now). Anyway, sometimes we see each other and we can get along fine together. Since he left he has been better verbally. I put some limits on that. I also told him that I like seeing him and spending time with him but I wnat something more and he is interested in intimacy but I want more of a long term commitment. Not just a casual thing. I mentioned we have an opportunity right now to correct some of the wrongs from the past but of course he is not interested. We still have 1 child at home who is 15. But he really doesn’t seem to be concerned that his immoral behavior has hurt his family. I do not want to enable him but at the same time i am not sure how to handle this. For ex sometimes he asks if he can come to check email. or borrow the vacuum. It seems for other things it is convenient for me to be his wife and he refers to me as such but behaves as if he didn’t have one. There really aren’t to many people here for us to turn to or people that he is concerned if they know about his behavior there are times when he tells what he is doing and doesn’t bother him what they think of it. Also the macho culture of our countries doesn’t help. How do I handle this since he is not in the home I don’t think talking to this other woman will be helpful. Especially since she is a widow, knows he is married and her children are grown. My teenage daughter has a lot of anger towards his constant abandoning of the family. I also told him it is wrong what he is doing it is hurtful to us and it doesn’t seem to bother him. What is the best way to handle this situation?
Allison,
Hadn’t read this blog much until this evening, but reading your earlier postings on surviving the “cycles,” I wanted to share some humor from today. Hope it helps you on a rough patch.
About 7am – I responded to an question my husband posed on Monday that I avoided then because it was almost time to get my boys from school. I answered with the caveat that the boys were downstairs eating breakfast, and I had a lot to finish to get them out this morning. First I got the 20 questions interrogation and then got the “there you go walking away,” a few times before I finally did leave. Unfortunately this was supported by my eldest (6) saying repeatedly “daddy, I need to go into school.” (As we rushed out, we got the gratuitous “do you always have to be late?”)
I returned home, to drop the toddler off and get something for the preschooler before his school began. I got pulled back into the discussion (loosely about finances – expenses needing to be less than income – not the issue because we have no real financial worries) Because we were talking in a reasonable manner, I tried to listen and did hear some of his valid points along with the other stuff. I let the discussion go too long (again the comments of my walking out if I tried to walk out, followed by the announcement of the time – telling me I was going to be late getting the 2nd one to preschool.) My nanny/housekeeper was arriving at this point and chuckled as she overheard (unknown to my husband) the last few remarks. I left for drop off and work rehashing in my mind how I need to cut the discussions off sooner, and just leave despite the “your walking away again remarks.”
I sent my husband an e-mail later in the day – stating first where I did hear his valid points, and that I was changing my behaviors, but also setting out some of the points from my bill of rights (behaviors which I already see he is decreasing as I am stronger.)
When I got home this evening there was a detailed outline of the time my nanny spent the past 1 1/2 weeks with the kids and the time she spent cleaning. My husband has decided I was not doing a good enough job managing her time and effort etc, and not setting the cleaning standard high enough. He has been “fixing” this with her over the past few weeks. She shared this list with me, and told me that when she said she couldn’t do all of it that he said maybe we should hire a separate house-cleaner.
The chuckle for me was then, but also when he came down later tonight to say the same thing to me (along with how I should have hired someone to essentially tutor the boys months ago. Both comments were given in the context of how I can not manage my time nor anyone else’s – there is a small kernel of truth in my own time management weakness) Wasn’t this the same person who was fussing just this morning about how we need to make sure our expenses are not greater than our income, and how I would be the one not to recognize this until it was a crisis ??? Did I miss something from that conversation ??? Did I miss some increase in our income during today ??? Perhaps I need a butler, a gardener and a chauffer as well ???
I could listen and not respond because I could see more clearly what were my weaknesses and what was his fussing and his own internal stress. I can see that the cycles are still going on, but I can see things are better. I share this detail because I trust this site is relatively private and anonymous. Humor helps a lot.
MR
MR,
Was your husband diagnosed NPD or is he just unreasonable and “flip-floppy” in his decisions? Just curious.
~Laura
Hi Laura & MR,
Laura, I also have my bachelors in psych… Maybe that’s why I’m so drawn to understand my own situation. It gives me great insight into human behavior – although I’ve always been really interested in it anyway. I think it’s also a downfall because I tend to over-analyze behavior and where it all comes from. That’s a big part of my problem. I guess I figure if I can step back and see the flaws in myself and want to do better it becomes impossible for me to accept the fact that others won’t do the same. I mean it’s to become a better person, right?
MR…
Good for you that you were able to see humor and step back and collect the situation without reacting in an unfavorable way. I’m actually in the midst of a situation right now. I want to go away for the weekend and he doesn’t want to. Financially I know we shouldn’t. Emotionally, I know that he will make excuses to spend $$$ on things he finds of value. So I’d rather not sacrifice a family excursion that we have gone on for every year since my daughter was 1. It’s a very special tradition to our children and to me. He could care less. Also, we shouldn’t be spending money on recreational things right now. But that won’t stop him from buying a new cell phone, buying new hardware for the computer (that he hasn’t even installed yet) and buying information that clogs his brain and keeps him from addressing reality. I know I should be responsible but this is a big priority to me, and it’s of value to my children. I have NO PROBLEM making the sacrifice. What I do have a problem with is the fact that he will not make the sacrifices as well. So when I’m sitting there in a week or two after giving up something important to me and he goes out to buy whatever and tries to explain how “it’s different” or it’s an “investment that will bring a return” or it “wasn’t as much money” I will FREAK!
I’ve been through this for years. So I discussed it with him in a calm and supportive manner. I told him that I would give up the vacation, and we would sit and pick the things that WE were going to cut back on. Like the constant lunches for networking, and the landscaper that we don’t have the $ to pay, and the office space that he rents and doesn’t use (so he can look professional – I can’t believe I bought into that…), and those other things that add up that we do NOT NEED! He refused, flipped out on me, and got really mad and started telling me how I am not helping financially.
He completely avoided the conversation about the finances (which we actually do need to have) and decided to make it about how this probelm is me never giving up anything and me never working to earn money, and me not understanding all he does and is trying to do.
I was again blind sighted. But I tried not to indulge him and I did say we can talk later when we can stay on topic… He then proceeded to tell me, “Fine, book the room.” Because he isn’t going to be told what he can spend his money on.
Sometimes I just want to shake him out of this delusion. But I can’t. It’s so hard. Especially when you are trying to make healthy, positive choices and for the good of your family and one of the most major players won’t let you help, won’t let you in, won’t let you do what you know to be right and good. He sees me as his biggest opposition, not his biggest support – and that’s what I’m trying to be.
This of course is aftermath of me standing my ground after he posed yet a new career opportunity. I explained that I do have a right to have a say in what he does when it directly affects myself and our family. He is very angry with me lately that I am not on board with his latest idea. He is also upset that I have presented him with a good arguement, that he is trying to deny.
Anyway… what craziness. I hate the competition!!! If I can’t do this you can’t do that. It’s terribly annoying, and hard to tolerate. I wonder when Steve decided to address himself as a N. And what that looked like. I feel like I’ll never get there. And I think a life of this rollercoaster bullshit might not be what I’m in for…
Allison, you post reminded me of the fact that I can absolutely NEVER sit down face to face with my husband to have a serious conversation.
First of all, he has NO eye contact whatsoever or stares above my head to the ceiling as if I’m up there while he’s talking to me. Very IRRITATING!
Secondly, he just can’t sit still long enough to HAVE a conversation and will cut any attempt of talking, off at the onset of it.
I used to become very frustrated when therapists, friends, and others would say “well, during your husband/wife talking time, ask him such n such…” I’d be thinking “yeah right…”talking time?” I’d LOVE to be able to sit across a table at some restaurant in the dim lights, holding hands, just talking and connecting. He never could, we never have, I’ve always wanted that.
~Laura
sorry, Allison…I meant to say “your post” not “you” post.
Hello Everyone,
I have been on and off with my boyfriend now for about 2 1/2 years now and although we fell very in love with each other it has always been rocky. During a very difficult period I began searching the internet for help and I found this website and like many others am very thankful that I did. The behaviour you describe sounded scarily similar to that of my boyfriends and I found new confidence to know that it wasn’t my fault but there were things that I was doing that were not helping. We have many issues to tackle he likes to gamble and take cocaine, he thinks that he has control of these things but I have noticed a pattern that he will pick a fight with me when we are spending an evening together, usually at his house as I live with my mother, so either I have to leave or he throws me out so he can go and do these things. It always then a row that lasts for days and one of us, usually me ends up telling the other it is over. Anyway, recently we have had a few good weeks and I have been avoiding the fights, biting my lip at his not-so-nice comments and turning potential situations into lovely evenings. But I have found a problem that I am really struggling with. The other night we went out for dinner and drinks with my best friend and her new boyfriend, had a lovely time and went back to his to stay. When we got home he decided to be in a mood but I tried not to let it bother me. We went to bed and his coldness warmed into getting intimate. About 15 mins in and I start to feel quite unwell and stop and go to the bathroom feeling very sick and dizzy. I come back in to the bedroom and say ‘I’m sorry, I don’t feel very well’ and open the window to get some air. He turns away and says ‘Great. My girlfriend tells me she feels sick when I’m having sex with her. How’s that supposed to make me feel?’ I was so upset with what he said I snapped ’sorry I wasn’t aware that I had to consider your feelings when I feel so ill.’ He then left the room to go and sit in the other room to watch tv and laugh very loudly with his flatmate. I was so hurt I called him in and started to cry and ask him why he was treating me with such contempt and he laughed and I lost my temper and he told me to leave. He stood and watched whilst I cried packing my bags struggling because I felt so ill and worthless. He said he was watching me in case I took anything!! This is not the first time he has done something like this. About a year ago, he was going away for a while for work so we were spending the last weekend together, we were having a few drinks and having a lovely time then we started kissing and things became heated. I started to feel a bit woozy from the wine and stopped to get some water. He started to get angry and upset with me saying how he was really getting in to it then and I’d ruined the moment. He made the rest of the evening and the weekend horrible because in his words ‘I ask one thing from you and you can’t even do that for me.’ Am I wrong to be so hurt and upset? Is it acceptable to be horrible to your partner when they become unwell during intimacy? I am finding it extremly difficult to remain civil to him when I feel from the way he acts as it feels like all he cares about is the sex and not me as a person. I don’t know if I can continue to be intimate in a situation like this I don’t feel safe. Any advice or opinnions on this situation would be great. Thank you.
Claire
Thank Goodness I have found you all!! It is like reading my life story over and over again. I ordered the ebook today and am waiting for payment to process. I hope to share with you all and learn from you all as time goes on. -bj
Clair,
I have had that EXACT same phase said to me so many times about sex ‘I ask one thing from you and you can’t even do that for me.’ You know it’s not wrong of you to tend to your illness over his “needs”. No more than it’s wrong for me to think sex should be a two way street not something I do only for him.
I haven’t found a great way to deal with this yet other than to know it’s him and not me. I have become very good and not allowing him to drag me in to his crazy world. It still gets to me and it comes out in the form of depression.
Good luck!
My turn… My boyfriend and I have been together off and on for 20 years. We have an 18 year old daughter born 11 months after he and his then wife had a son. I found out later that at that time I was one of TWO mistresses. We eventually parted when our daughter was 2 and I didn’t really hear from him for 11 years.
Then like a knight in shinning armor he reappeared divorced and ready to have the life we had always talked about… 6 months later we were living together and for the first time I saw the mask really come off. I realized what his wife had been living with all those years (23!)
So we’ve been together and apart twice now since that reunion. It caused horrible disruption in everyones lives when I walked out on him. We have now been back living together for over two years.
Over the years I have made great strides in not allowing him to push my buttons. He has come miles in controling the fits of rage. Unfortunately his lack of trust and jelousey continues to be a major source of trouble for of us. I am still “bad” becuase I had affairs and cheated on him when I was his mistress or we were seperated. (His words) He of course is perfect and none of his past matters including the recent internet affairs I have busted him on.
So here is the current drama… My well meaning friends purchased a 5 day cruise for me about a year ago. Half cause they wanted me to go and I was unemployed and half because I think they knew it would force something between Louis and I. I never told Louis. The cruise is Oct. 17th. So I lied and told him that my friend had bought it for someonee else and now that person couldn’t go so it was a free trip for me. He of course through a fit and says if I do he is leaving and moving out. We are now at a Mexican Standoff with me saying I’m going and him saying he is moving out BUT we are playing house nicer than ever and having a blast. GO FIGURE!! I want to back out on the trip but I don’t think that is right the thing to do. I’m not ready to give up the realtionship either… Thoughts??
Claire, this may sound simplistic, but RUN while you can. He’s only a boyfriend, not a spouse. You deserve better. Wish I would have run in those days too.
HI Claire,
I approved Laura’s comment to highlight my feelings on this.
As humans, we have an only a limited understanding of our own intuition. The biggest problem Kim and I face with our work is that we know that many people like Claire have a ‘feeling’ that they have something of a connection with their abusive partner. This deep bond is almost impossible to ignore.
Also, Kim and I are of the opinion that running away will not resolve the conflict. I completely see that Laura’s comment is compassionate and made with the best intentions, but a larger question opens up, i.e. What next?
Running away from this problem will not resolve Claire’s confusion and sadness. This guy sounds like Trouble with a capital T, so the option of ending the relationship should definitely be on the table, but it is not as simple as running away.
Kim has a chapter on ending a relationship if Claire feels it is the right thing to do. Claire, you need to be ready to move on completely, and part of that process is learning to limit abuse. The big danger is that Claire may run straight into the arms of an even bigger abuser. It happens all the time.
So our eBooks are about limiting the abuse and resolving the conflict. The ongoing work is to develop better emotional maturity and intelligence. We need to be able to be our own hero, as the knight in shining armor is a myth that is not relevant in today’s society.
Claire, I know this is not an easy solution, but you are ready to take the steps to looking after yourself and your own emotions now. You have to learn some new skills, you can do it.
Laura, I know your comment comes from your own experience and I believe you have Claire’s interest at heart, I hope I haven’t come across as dismissive. Kim and I only want to give people like Claire the best chance of a bright future, and untangling difficult scenarios like this are never easy.
Steve
Hi Everyone,
I believe from personal experience that when your partner is aggressive towards you they are actively hiding something they feel guilty about – something they may say they are in control of – but in actual fact are out of control of, and in my husband’s case it is alcoholism along with the behaviour that drives his addiction to alcohol – which is Narcissism.
I have been married to my husband since 1976 – we have had many good times, but we have had countless very, very bad times. I started out in this relationship a very bright attractive young girl, but soon lost the sparkle in my eyes as my husband’s addiction to alcohol got worse and he started shifting blame onto me for everything that went wrong in his life. I started and then continued to doubt myself, and I went downhill with him by trying to make him happy in the hope that he would overcome his addiction to alcohol. What I didn’t know was that in trying to make him happy I was actually contributing to his alchoholism and the narcissism behind his addiction to alcohol.
We both ended up in a downward spiral of a love-hate relationship. However I remained optimistic that I could one day “make him happy” and everything would be alright. At the same time he constantly told himself (and me) “It is no wonder I drink – look at what I have to live with…,or the kids are playing up…,or this one or that one has done me wrong…,or my problems are bigger than anyone else’s….,or it’s party time….,or it’s a hot day….,etc, etc, etc,”.
How do I know that he is an alcoholic if he has not been diagnosed or has not confessed to being one? Unfortunately I cannot say categorically that he is an alcoholic – only he can really judge that for himself – but right now he is in DENIAL that it is his drinking & the behaviour associated with it that is causing many of the problems in his life. He irrationally and conveniently believes that it is the problems in his life that are causing him to drink.
From a self-growth program called Al-Anon that I was in for many years which is a world-wide support group for the family and friends of alcoholics I learned that if a loved-one’s drinking is causing problems in his/her life and your life, then your loved one may have a problem with alcohol. From that program I learned that the problem all along is not when or how long he drinks or how much, how many or how often he drinks, nor has it been what sort he drinks, nor that he is in the gutter and penniless (both of which he is not – in fact he is a high achieving and successful businessman in a highly stressful business)…..the problem is the NEED to drink and the DENIAL that his use of alcohol is causing problems in his life.
My husband sometimes goes to extraordinary lengths to hide how much he is drinking, or justifies his drinking in many ways as mentioned above, or he (sometimes aggressively or for sport) creates an argument to fabricate a “reason” to justify his drinking.
Narcissism is the common denominator that we are all discussing here – and it is Narcissism that is behind the alcoholic, the drug addict, the gambler, the porn addict, the con-man (extortionist) and so on. The Narcissist is very skilled at hiding whatever it is that they don’t want you to see or to acknowledge for fear of losing our (the co-dependent’s) physical, mental, emotional and sometimes financial/business support that helps structurally hold up their “House of Cards”. The Narcissist will keep us “attached” to them by pulling on our heart strings or by pushing on our insecurity buttons, or by exploiting and manipulating our vulnerability – and guess what – they can because all we want to do is to “make them happy and everything will be all right”.
Our task is to learn as much as we can about Narcissism and ourselves, to let go of all the old blame games and emotional turmoil – to get real and to get honest with ourselves and our partner, and very importantly, to learn to love and accept ourselves again, and to command respect.
How do we do that? It takes a while – and it takes as long as it takes! It is a voyage of self-discovery while turning our inner strength toward positive self-growth and newly-found confidence that we are heading in the right direction for our mental, emotional & spiritual maturity – with or without the Narcissist in our life…we have to be prepared for a healthy lifestyle whatever the outcome.
In learning to love ourselves again, we can better withstand the rigors of any continuing emotional abuse from our loved one, by not absorbing their projected criticisms and rising above “the junk” all the while knowing that (in most cases) the Narcissist is really more scared of losing us than we are of losing them – although they would have us believe otherwise!
In learning to love ourselves again, we can smile and say our partner’s name warmly each time we greet them and because we have learned that they have been and are suffering from mental, emotional & spiritual immaturity – just like we have been. We can now truly reach out to them by showing them we are getting happy “without making them happy first”, and by being honest with ourselves and with them we will then be seen as trustworthy and therefore they may slowly learn to trust us. They may want to give up on their “House of Cards” or they may want to continue with a new co-dependent….que sera sera! Whatever will be, will be! The important thing to remember is we can only change ourselves, and our changed attitudes may inspire change for the better in our Narcissist.
All of the below programs for addiction are similar in format, and powerfully assist those affected by a loved-one’s addiction to a vice. As you regain your self-worth and self-esteem, and change your attitudes towards the narcissist/addict you will be providing a positive environment for the your loved one’s potential recovery from their addiction or compulsion to drink, gamble or take drugs, etc. All these programs also empower both the addict and their loved-ones to achieve their individual goals. These programs also reinforce the principles of Kim and Steve’s program only Kim and Steve and their associate professionals give definitive advice on how to handle various situations, unlike the below programs which leave each individual to find their own solutions – however together they provide the strong support than anyone living in a relationship with a narcissist requires.
12 Step programs and support groups for the family and friends of those addicted to:
Drugs: Nar-Anon
Gambling: Gam-Anon
Alcoholism: Al-Anon
I cannot praise the work that Kim and Steve have done highly enough, and will be eternally grateful that they have dedicated so much of their time and their lives to helping others as they have helped me. Thank you so much!
Good luck & stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
CD,
Thank you for your post. You are an inspiration to me. I have to keep telling myself daily it’s not up to me to make him happy. I can only make me happy.
CD,
I respect your maturity and insight with regards to all of this. Clearly you have done a lot of work with these ideas, and your experience has been valuable for many of us. It is because of that experience and insight that I write seeking your thoughts.
I continue to struggle both with myself and with my husband. I don’t want to leave, because I don’t want to hurt my boys – which I know leaving would do. I don’t want to leave, because like so many here, I see the side of my husband that I knew earlier in our relationship, both the over-confidence and the insecurity. However, I don’t want to stay and have things continue as they are because it is wearing me down too much. I don’t like the constant nastiness. I don’t like who I have become … your last posting touched on that. Essentially something changed in me with this last eruption – I’m not eaving, but I am ready to leave. It is difficult to remain kind to anyone when you are constantly being hurt, but I keep going trying my best with that suggestion. However I also can’t see myself responding to my husband in the overly solicitous, accepting all responsibility way that he seems to want/need from me. I’m having a hard time letting go of a lot of anger and resentment … fueled by constant criticism/put downs and just the other day a new level of temper-tantrum. Recently I am having a hard time even engaging at all, let alone building attachment etc. It is hard to let go of what has been said, even if I know they are just very hurtful words which I mostly doubt he really means. It saddens me because this is not the life I want, nor feel I deserve. I also do not think he wants or deserves to live this way, but I can not make him take any steps towards changing.
Although I do not know what all is the “addiction,” or deception that I have yet to discover, I have discussed previously some issues. As I have said, I think some part of his historical “grandious,” thinking has calmed, and he is creating a portion of what he always wanted, and a “real” high level business. Clearly his mind is always 5 steps ahead, envisioning the next level … that is the narcissism, but it is also what has always driven him to do more and to achieve. However, I suspect the other side of it is also what turns people away – although here he has improved in his public persona.
I’m just exhausted by trying to keep up with this ever raising standard. I just want to be able to live happily and allow my boys to be content – not worrying about who is going to judge them as “inferior and to be avoided,” because their hair is mussed, their clothes have a dirty spot, or our van has crumbs or clutter when they are dropped off to school. These are little children … there are enough years for them to be so concerned about appearences. I think his house of cards is in part wanting to “appear,” as part of some powerful social strata, that is ill defined (probably always rising) and is never what I wanted. I’m not really convinced that “those people” live the way he believes they do, but since I am not sure who “they” are it is hard to determine. He believes that “success” in business/social sence is in part coincidential and any circumstance that is not “what I expected,” will take away from that potential. Except for the relationship stuff, I am where I want to be. I took the steps to get there, and some places where I have side stepped professionally are because of making the conscious decision to focus on and protect my boys (just from the problems that I think arise more readily when both parents are working 60+ hour weeks.) I can accept my flaws and mistakes, and know that I can improve on some of the “scatter-brain-ness,” time management, and disorganized inefficiency as I get less emotionally vulnerable. Those are my biggest weaknesses I see right now.
A few weeks back, I restated clearly some boundaries about what is not acceptable, and after the temper-tantrum the other day I took the boys to my parents for an overnight. I was not going to stay with his acting so dangerously and irratically, but I came back because I did not want to be punishing him by keeping the boys away . I’m not ok with either his words to me or his behavior, and I am not sure how to address that without leaving myself open to being blambed.
Hi MR,
It is empowering when we learn that the only person we can change is ourselves. However we have to guard against changing ourselves just to make our partner happy or in response to their criticisms, put-downs, unreasonable expectations or mind games.
If there is something we believe we should change in ourselves, it must be for the reason that it is right for our OWN individual health, contentment and well-being. As we do make the changes in ourselves that we find necessary (for our own health, contentment and well-being) others will benefit too – especially those closest to us, and they may be inspired to do the same for themselves.
In searching out the shortcomings or attitudes you wish to change in yourself, you are taking your focus off your Narcissist and turning your focus toward yourself. Your Narcissist will see or sense this, and because of his high demand for constant attention, and the need for a scapegoat to excuse his own shortcomings/inadequacies, he will most likely try to get your attention and focus returned to him by whatever means possible – for example he may use charm/seduction, button pushing, blaming, criticism, put-downs, etc. The challenge for us is not to react, but to respond by being ASSERTIVE in response to the attention seeking and need for a scapegoat.
To be assertive requires us intimately knowing and believing in ourselves – what our core values and beliefs are, what we want for ourselves (and our family) and what our boundaries are (Personal Bill of Rights), and that we live according to these with honesty and integrity. To be assertive also requires us to like & love ourselves – accepting ourselves for all our strengths, weaknesses, successes and shortcomings. We build on our strength and success every time we search out our weaknesses and shortcomings, and by working on them, changing them for the better, we increase our chance of success at dealing with the difficulties in our life and become stronger to cope with – and DEFLECT – disappointment or negativity. Until we decide to and actually believe in ourselves, we are like willows in the wind – tossed and blown about by the abuse of another – abuse including criticism, insults and put-downs, etc. Nobody can put us down UNLESS WE LET THEM by absorbing or reacting to what they say.
One of my weaknesses was not knowing the language of assertiveness, saying HOW I FEEL when my husband treats me negatively (eg: Hurt, Distressed, etc), and WHAT I NEED TO DO IN RESPONSE to that negativity (eg: Go to work/sleep,etc; Call my support network).
With emotional immaturity I would react by TELLING HIM WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO TO MAKE ME FEEL BETTER (the Narcissist/Co-dependent in me?). The trouble is with his emotional immaturity he does not know how to make himself feel better, let alone make me feel better!
I would also react by defending myself, rebounding blame, negativity or aggression, crying tears of hurt, fear and frustration, and so on – and after some time of being in Al-anon I realised that every time I reacted in this way I still had something to learn – that being how to respond ASSERTIVELY.
The value of time out and self-soothing is to find the most appropriate and assertive response to keep us from going down the “automatic reaction” path that we have been caught up in doing for so long.
Kim’s repertoire of responses have been of great help to teach me the language of assertiveness – especially when I need to “build a bridge” between the “incident” and “the time-out to self-soothe” by immediately responding that:
“I feel hurt/distressed/etc by what is happening right now and I don’t want to respond until I have had time to calm down”.
Tapping into exactly what I am feeling at that exact moment of confrontation has been difficult for me – I may be feeling a combination of feelings – hurt, angry, frustrated, etc – but feel numb and can’t readily verbalise what I feel – I think the word “distressed” covers all feelings of distress in that moment of numbness.
Kim brought Steve’s narcissism to account with him by not getting sucked in to the negativity, and by getting support from others – from her support network – and she did not to hesitate to call on them to step in when necessary. From what I understand, to try to do that completely by herself under some circumstances would have probably invited further negativity or blame and would perhaps not have achieved the positive results she required to protect her well being and to command respect.
I don’t believe we can build an adequate or appropriate support network until we know what we are dealing with. It is my opinion that criticisms, insults and put-downs, etc are most likely the smoke-screen the Narcissist creates to hide his/her inadequacy(ies), or whatever it is he/she feels guilty about, or they don’t want you to know about, or the true extent of.
While you are hurting from, or reacting to, the criticisms, insults, put-downs, abuse, etc, your mind has been distracted from revealing whatever it is he is wanting to hide (this may or may not be done with malicious intent). The real deal is not about your time management (which I believe would not be a true “failing” especially under such stressful circumstances), nor about the crumbs or clutter in the van, nor the children’s hair not being combed 100% of the time, etc as he would have you believe. I believe this is his form of smoke-screening, and as you have eluded to – criticisms such as these also are about keeping up appearances, or the (Narcissistic) image he is trying to establish and/or maintain.
At a conscious or unconscious level for him, I believe it is also to distract,demoralize and/or disempower you to keep you from finding out the truth and/or leaving him – although he would have you believe you are dispensable. He has not yet followed through on his threat to leave you (which I believe could be because he is more scared of losing you than you are of losing him – although he plays this card close to his chest).
Now you are thinking that you can take or leave the marriage, the dynamic may change. When we reach this point it is because (I believe) we have grown in self-esteem and self-worth sufficiently to enable us to DETACH better from the insults, criticism, put-downs, etc, because we have realised that we are a worthwhile human being and do not have to accept unacceptable behaviour or abuse.
As a physician no doubt you are very experienced in using objectivity instead of subjectivity with your patients while still showing that you care for them. The detachment required with your husband that I talk about is similar to this. You care very much about your husband, but you can only successfully get a handle on the situation with objectivity and not subjectivity at this point in time. It is vital that you listen to what your husband “does” and not what he “says”. My guess is that what he is DOING is saying “stuff” that he knows you get caught up in and keeps you down and busy being hurt – maybe not with malicious intent (however with the prowess of an attorney) and ultimately as an emotionally immature way of hiding his true self from you, himself and the world.
It is also vital that you find out what is going on in your husband’s life – as his wife, and mother of your children, you have a right to know – especially because there has been verbal, emotional and physical abuse and intimidation. I believe you can only do this safely with a covert private investigation, and it should not be attempted by yourself. For your safety, take care on how you make and keep contact with a private investigator (meetings, phone calls, letters, emails, etc) and how you pay for the investigation service to keep it confidential from your husband. An investigation may or may not reveal anything, but it will enable you to make an informed decision if you are considering leaving the marriage. If an investigation reveals something that is not acceptable you will then know what you are dealing with and what to do about it, or what support is required whether or not you decide to stay in the marriage. With a covert investigation your husband need never know about it.
With respect to the history of physical abuse and intimidation and the recent event where things escalated that you needed to retreat to your parents home with your children – it is vital that you seek the support of your local police BEFORE you have a need to call them in the future – make them aware in the cool, calm and matter-of-fact way that Kim talks about, in a language that you are concerned for your husband, and that you are concerned for yourself and your children’s safety, and that you are not wanting to set up a stage for divorce, but that you are seeking limits on his abuse with the intent of getting help for him, and make sure this is on police record. Listen to Kim’s audios regarding this and make note of her advice – for your safety and the safety of your children.
In the meantime, make sure your basic needs are met. When things get tough for me I get very little sleep, and my mind “boggles” while staring into the blackness of night from my bed – rehashing past hurts, searching the depths of my mind for answers, etc which sets me up for exhaustion and reduced capacity to deal assertively with negative behaviour and attitudes (including my own). Make sure you get adequate and quality rest to deal with a very stressful situation (in addition to as a working mum looking after small children too which is challenging by itself). If possible – try to reduce your workload either at home or at work or both to conserve your energy. I did chuckle with you that your husband started talking about expenses not exceeding income, then nearly in the next breath he said you should have employed home tutoring for your boys a long time ago! I believe this made his criticisms of you at that time somewhat transparent? and from that you definitely should not take everything he says to heart from now on?
Consider new options like:
• Some day care for your pre-schoolers where they can relax, make noise and have fun with other kids of similar age. My nearly six year old grand-son has just taken up ball-room dancing! He asked to do this after watching his mum starting ballroom dancing. His little face lights up with joy every time he dances – and his teachers are astounded at how quickly he is picking it up (he lacked confidence in doing anything before, but has taken to this like a duck to water).
• Take time out from the marriage (whether or not you want to leave the marriage right now) by going on a holiday with your children -no doubt your husband would not want to go due to his work commitments. Have heaps of fun with your kids – speaking from experience they will appreciate it immensely and remember it with happiness well into adulthood. While on holiday, live by your standards with them, letting them relax and have fun while just being kids without concern for dirty laundry or dishevelled hair, give them the opportunity to enjoy that mum is great fun to be with. (“They say to look after your kids really well because they eventually get to choose your nursing home!” – humorous but true!!)
• When your husband wants the house to be quiet, make sure that you go somewhere with the kids where you have lots of fun and relaxation too.
This is all just being good to yourself, and what is best for you is best for your family (it also takes the focus off your husband, and brings new joyful conversation to the table – you may be met with some adversity, but your husband will need time to feel “safe” with this, and may even reassess his priorities one day?).
Keep reading and listening to Kim & Steve’s information, and Sarah’s audios if you have them – I still pick up something new every time I have another look or listen to the wealth of information they have provided.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Dear kim and Steve,
It is refreshing to know someone believes in healing, not leaving! Our story is the same as the hundreds that you read each day, with one twist. When we met, we both had petting zoo businesses. Entertaining was or lives and we enjoyed it. Mine was a farm tour, aimed at teaching children about agriculture. His was more of a traveling show.
In the beginning it was so perfect, so much in common. Within six months he had convinced me to give up mine (so that we did not have double expenses) and we became one business. Incorporated both names worked together….so nice. Then it fell apart, first he stopped allowing me any part of decision making, then took my name out of all advertising, then left me totally out of the finances (my only source of income!) I have five children so you know that is not an option. I started fighting over even grocery money, and eventually had to stop “working for HIM” and find different work.
When I did, he filed for divorce, of course telling us to leave, while he operated the business solely. All the while we have been trying to work it out and have cancelled the divorce. ( i never agreed to a divorce)
I had no choice, I moved to a seperate house. And now have a great job, he however is doing horrible financially, and refuses to admit it. He has taken “our business” and made it into the source of his ego building monster feeding device. He uses and abuses the animals, and cant financially take care of them, but doesnt care if they die, he just replaces them.
Meanwhile he shows up at events and of course ALL women throw their selves at him, because they think it is sooooo cool that he has a zebra, kangaroo, buffalo, monkey….whatever. This “business” does not provide for us in any way, and he only goes farther in debt, only because he buys so much “stuff” to impress others. But it has a potential to make a fortune if the finances were handled correctly.
I try not to get mad, but if we dont have heat, do you think he should by a camel?
I have taken back control of my finances and take care of a seperate home (with heat and a working stove) and he says he loves me and we are trying to work it out, but now his is excuse is that I dont support his “lifestyle” of what makes HIM happy. (keep in mind it was mine to start with).
So he refuses to let me or the children be a part of “the business” at all- instead he tells everyone that we dont like that kind of thing, and he hires other womens kids to work with him, and they pity him for his wifes lack of support.
I am his fifth wife. I do NOT want to divorce him. But cant compete with the women who constantly feed his ego, since he now calls that his “lifestyle and only source of income” can you PLEASE, PLEASE tell me how you would addres this?
CD,
Months ago, I took your suggestion about listening to the past radio shows and relaxation tapes while driving. There are 2 days a week I have a bit of a communte and I cherish those trips. I think it has been good for me, as was going back to work about this time last year (helped me once again feel like I was capable at something.)
I read in one of Kim’s recent transcripts about difficulties in discussing things. She says “Steve, back when I wasn’t able to discuss that with you. And you would just say, ‘oh it doesn’t matter, you just do whatever’.
STEVE: Yeah, ‘I haven’t got time to talk about it. Sure, you do whatever’.
KIM: You just do whatever you want and I will go along with it. And you pretended you were really easygoing. But when it got down to it, whatever plans I made you would just completely ignore and do what you would like and be upset with any of it if it wasn’t what you wanted or what you liked. And I would say, well, why didn’t you talk to me about it. And I remember reading marriage books back then and one that just clearly illustrated that whole situation for negotiation and if one person isn’t prepared to sit down and take the time to negotiate, really they are the person that is the aggressor.
STEVE: That’s right.
KIM: And you used to always point the finger and say, ‘Look, you are having all these ideas and you are more assertive than me anyway. There is no point in talking to you because you will always win’.
This scenerio rang very true for me. Going back many, many years to issues I didn’t even recognize at the time. My husband has always tried to say that he allowed me to do whatever I wanted in many things, but after many of my decisions it was always a criticism about the decision. It is much clearer to me now, but I can remember sometimes I even saw it then. Situations where I thought he was agreeing, and he later has come back to say that I was pushing something on him, and he was being so generous as to just go along, but I am “blamed” now for not recognizing how he really felt, or supporting what he wanted. The biggest of these was the purchase of our first house, which I did with some minor help from my parents. I worked extra hours during my last year of medical training to help cover cost. I wanted us to have a nice place, and I thought it was something he wanted too. (I was guilty of playing into the “image” thing at that time too. ) We sold it at a big profit, and moved at my husband’s wish, but couched as “for me,” because I was commuting about an hour and was about to deliver our first child. The profit from the house went into some things he wanted to do, to pay off some old debt he had, and ultimately into our current house. Once I was out of training, I out earned my husband for the first 7 or so years of our marriage, so I understand this was not how he wanted to see himself, but I saw it as the opportunity to let him find and develop what he wanted to do while still having a “pretty good life.”
I took off some time after the birth of my third, and that was when things got very bad between us. Post partum depression, my feeling less secure because we had moved around during my pregnancy, our things were all in boxes, and I had lost my role at work, and was being criticized constantly. At this point I am back to contributing significantly to our household income, but much of what I do at home is still being devalued. Our nanny has even picked up on when he tries to find fault with how I am managing things. He seems to be hurt and to want to hurt.
I’m doing better at not getting caught into feeling responsible when he gets angry at me. I know I still need passages like Kim’s above to reassure me that I am not the precipitant of all of our issues (that doubt is pretty well entrenched – maybe because it leaves me with some control over things … if I fix myself it will make everything ok again. ) I’m probably getting more frustrated and angry at him, although I am mostly not responding or reacting. I’m tired of accomodating and tolerating. I’m tired of either being ignored or insulted. I’m tired of my boys being put in the middle – pushed to either choose to spend time with dad or with me, and other times having to listen to the put downs of me.
I’m considering talking with the headmistress/nun of my eldest child’s school. She just sent out a newsletter on expecting too much from our children. I expect to find a receptive ear, but I need to figure out how to ask for help in getting my husband to see how his interaction with the boys and with me in front of the boys is not good for them. He expects them to be older than they are, especially when he is under stress. I’m wary about making things worse – making him feel like I am criticizing him or trying to tell him he is wrong, which are sure to backfire.
Given the spectrum of what is people have documented on this site, my life is ok, but it is not what I want. I hope in time to give more back to this site and to others here. I miss the husband I first knew … and yes I recognize that may have been a facade, but I would like back someone who can want to be with me and want to be considerate of me, It is difficult to work on building attachment when he hibernates on the computer. It is a challenge to even get eye contact at any point in the day. I can’t get myself to give a bright and bubbly good morning … although I know I should try, and need to work on doing so. I think I am wary of being hurt when it is rejected – either directly or indirectly.
I know the places I need to see some changes, and some have changed , but only to be replaced with cold disengagement (here I need to not let his past threats echoing back in me.) I’m still holding out hope that things can get better, but I wish I more clearly had my husband working with me.
MR
Dear Kim and Steve,
My situation is a little different than what yours was and I’m trying to figure how to apply your recommendations to my situation. I would be the classic co-dependent that you described. I am not married to my NPD partner and now he has decided to leave the relationship but says he wants to remains friends. I feel like I’ve been hit by a bus and feel horrible that there seems to be nothing in my power to un-do the damage.
While he said he wanted to continue to remain friends, he hasn’t honored that statement either. At this point, I’m simply trying to retain the friendship part of the relationship. As nutty and irrational some of his behavior was, I still cannot help but believe that there is a decent, kind and caring human being inside of him. He was never physically abusive to me. I do feel he drinks a bit too much (shot booze in his coffee, booze in his office desk, a glass of scotch before bed and beer all day long), he also has a serious addiction to nicotine. He stopped smoking which sounds great but now he chews through 10 to 15 pieces of nicotine gum per day, which is more than when he smoking. I spends a tremendous amount of time alone surfing the internet (the fantasy life you spoke of, although I don’t think he uses porn, but habitually trolls the dating websites)
In the early stages of the relationship, we seemed to be so very much in synch and we both proclaimed how very happy we were to have found each other, but then one day it was as if a light switch went off and he totally changed. He accused me of being over critical of him because I simply stated that “I don’t think it’s going to rain of us today” and that was an insult to his proposed plans – that I was a total go on all long. From there, the cascading failure of communication began at an uncontrollable rate. I could see deep hurt and fear in his eyes and I would try to reassure him that I would never hurt him and that I would always stand by him, and that seemed to only make it worse. He has now changed his story several times in regards to the “type” of relationship that he is looking for. The fact that I was commented to stick by him made him act even worse and push me even further away. I probably did every wrong thing on your list to try to diffuse the situation, which led to the situation to become even worse. I know he’s already online trolling for his next “victim”. My girlfriend saw his profile online on his favorite dating website. I’m worried for the next person he dates and I know there’s absolutely nothing I can do to control that.
I’ve let boyfriends fall by the way side more often than not, but for whatever reason, I felt different about this one. I feel like there’s a good person inside being held back by a bad one that is only acting out from pain. At this point, I do not have the ambition of getting back together as a couple. I only want to salvage the friendship. The only communication lately has been through emails. Is there truly nothing I can do to at least save the friendship part of this relationship?
Dear Kim and Steve,
I have been in relationship with my husbad for last 5 years (3 years married). We have had constant arguments and I always thought the I was the problem and was not good enough. I have been batteling depression since last couple of years and thought that I was going insane. My husband blames me for every thing he possibly can and made me belive that I was the one who needed to learn “to behave” (thats when i did did something different to what he thought was the appropriate behaviour). For the last 5 years i have kept on changing myself for him but the cycle never ends! There is always something he finds to “Fix” in me. It was only when I came across your website I realised that its my husband who is the N here and I am the co dependant. He is very possesive and insecure and tries to keep me away from my friend and family as best as he can. And if i try to maintain ties with them he says that i am selfish and heartless and i dont care about him. He is verbally very abusive. Your website has given me a hope that things can be mended. i have bought your audios and also the gap finder and look back from the glass. I have been following the steps that you have suggested from the last couple of weeks. I can see that my husband is a bit confused by my confident behaviour now. He said to me last night that he feels i have changed and have become more bold and selfish and dont care about his feelings any more. So he is now trying to control me even more. Wondering if i am on the right track?? what do i do? is he just testting my limits?
Yes I think you are right and he will probably test you even more before this is over but you stand firm!
Have a look at the super nanny if you can and just see how hard those kids test their parents once they
start setting firm boundaries and not getting sucked in to the games!!! It will help you to see that I think.
So far so good and you are doing great and you hang in there!!!
I can not thank you enough Kim for what you and Steve have done for this community of people suffering with this issue. I run the risk here of sounding a little too “emotional” but you have been like an angel to me! On just the right day, and at just the right time you have provided me with just what I needed to get back on track… a track that I had begun to walk away from. Like an angel!!! Thank you so much
Allison
Hi
I recently purchased your material and have found it extremely helpful. I am in the setting boundaries stage and havent figured this all out yet. My husband of 17 mo has NPD and is Bipolar (on meds). For the past 17 mon I have written when he got mad and what it was about. He would always blame me but I knew it was not my fault. He gets mad about something at least once a month. He can stay mad for up to 10 days, all the while blaming me and saying that I don’t want to resolve it. I am finally learning to set some limits because he is verbally abusive even to the point of yelling. When he gets mad I leave the bedroom and sleep downstairs because he is very mean at nite. He has elbowed me in bed and pushed my legs. He gets up and turns all the lights on when I am trying to sleep. Sometimes he starts yelling at me in the middle of the nite. It makes me tense all over wondering what will happen next so I sleep downstairs.
Later after days, he will become sweet and kind and ask me to forget the past and move forward.
My counselor has told me some of the same ideas portrayed in your books. I appreciate your detail and I am learning what has to be done. I don’t know what the outcome will be, but I know I will survive and even thrive!
Hi Kim and Steve,
My husband and I have had a spiraling relationship the past 10 years. i am an Ivy League trained physician-scientist and lived in Boston and New York before “slowing” down my career, when I met my husband who worked at the same job for 20 years and lived in his same hometown. We got married at 38, had two wonderful children (boy and girl), then my life slowly fell apart. I worked part-time as a pediatrician, but to him, I never was making enough money. I went for more training in genetics since I lost a position when he pushed me to make more money. I completed my training, commuting 3 hours a day, got treated for thyroid cancer, then had 3 part-time positions but had difficulty keeping up because of the fatigue after my thyroid cancer treatment, my 2+ hour daily commute, my son’s learning problems, and the fact that whereas his mother was 10 minutes from our home, my parents lived 2 hours away. Somehow I was being held to a higher standard, and felt my life was out of balance, so I left clinical medicine, worked on improving my home and supporting my son the next 2 years, then got a part-time position working from home (in genetics). Well, for the past 5 years my husband has been complaining that I don’t have a real job, that I ruined the marriage, that I am to blame and need medication. He has refused to see my therapist. He threatens me with divorce, then he filed for divorce (he kept nagging me one day about no relationship, no marriage and asked whether we should get divorce so I told him to go ahead). He filed in May, but refused to go to mediation. He sent my lawyer a “proposal” which she thought was preposterous. Then at the last minute he asked me to have a 90 day stay and stupid me accepted. He was nice to me the first day, saying he was sorry for everything he put me through. The next day he was telling me how much the lawyers already took from us, still talks about my career and my MD degree, and wonders if the marriage is worth the benefit. He feels nothing is wrong with himself. I feel like a failure. Is this a narcissist? Am I crazy/stupid to remain with him or think that he can change?
Hi Kim and Steve, Your website is the best.I know without a doubt in my spirit that God lead me to your site.My husband is a Narcisstic and I have cried many days because of it.I always kept hoping that his terrible behavior will change.I am a Godly woman and I love my husband and I don’t want a divorce.Do you believe a narcisstic can behave this way and truly love his wife?I really need a answer to this question, thanks
I need some input on this….I am trying to work on my boundaries and having the right responses to his negative outbursts of yelling and putting me down but what do you do about making love? He EXPECTS that I should continue to want to be intimate with him even when he is mad at me and yells at me. I tell him there is no emotional intimacy in our relationship because of the verbal abuse. When he is nice and helpful then I try to make love but it is getting more difficult. He quotes the Bible to me as this is my obligation! What do you other ladies do?
Allison,
I was re-reading old postings as a way to calm myself after a rough morning. I read your first posting and I do see some overlap in our stories. My husband came from 2 immegrant parents, his dad had 4-5 years of schooling and hos mom had none. He built a business with his dad that did well and then had big problems (which he blambs entirely on his dad.) He was an attorney came to the US to get an advanced degree and now is running a council with multiple international embassies and universities. Lots of places for narcissistic supply, but he also has really accomplished a lot.
I wanted to share with you a new insight or new perspective … not that intellectualizing about our spouses fixes the problem.
I do not see that my husband has an “addiction” in the traditional sense, but similar to what you described there is a constant drive to create the next big idea or project. Earlier in our marriage, he talked to me about the anxiety he felt because there always seemed to be some leap to the next step in his building of his business. However now with years of history with him, I see that much of this is self created. He will justify this as the evolution of his business model trying to find what really works, but it is also creating a frequent re-starting and re-building. There must be something that releases endorphins in this … the rush of the new project or new idea.
I see the same pattern in his leisure activities with our boys. He can go from one “focus,” to the next in cycles. While in one, he is overdriven about it … for example the past 2 weeks or so, he has decided that the boys need to learn about art and drawing. So this means spending time at the local art museums, watching internet videos on how to draw, getting books on how to draw, and now going out to get paints, charcoals, pastels, and lap easels (getting them out of the house by 7:30am on a Saturday.) Remembering my older 2 boys are 4 and 6, what is wrong with a box of crayons and a box of washable markers. I don’t see this as “for the kids,” but as “serving dad’s need” for the next novel interest. I’m not complaining, because in these spurts he does spend time with the boys, and does expose them to a number of good things. I just put it out for consideration as a variety of a behavior driven similarly to an addiction (?) or similar to the search for the next new business plan.
If you see a similarity in your experience, I hope this gives you some comfort and shared perspective.
MR
MR, interesting post you shared here.
With the former N-mentor from a few years ago, I saw the same thing. At one point I asked her if she ever feels that she actually “accomplishes” or “arrives” at anything she strives to do or place she strives to get to. Her response was that she really never does, because there is “always something more…something better…something new.” Again, as in your situation, most of this was self-created on her part of things.
The biggest thing that baffled me, was that she seemed to have big plans for a huge ministry endeavor, yet when I got up close to her, there actually was no ministry at all…not even the real “starting” of one. Very odd.
Lynne,
My background is similar to yours except for a different specialty. I was married when I was in my fellowship in New Haven. Almost three years ago, I left a top tier faculty position in part (although not entirely) because of my husband’s covert message that it would be better if I focused less on my “career,” more on my family, and maximized the $$/hr I was getting. I was not strong enough to protect my time which made it difficult for me to keep up with the demands of academia.
I stopped working completely after the birth of my 3rd child, and was “helping him” in his business. There was a change of job and a few re-locations in during the pregnancy. That 9 months and the next 8 when I stayed home were the worst for me and our relationship. Although I’m not sure I was ready to go back to work much sooner than I did, I still remember the first few days back when once again I felt like I could do something competently and confidently! First – Don’t loose what you do well and where you get positive feedback. Consider if you should go back to working someplace outside of the home. Living with someone who can be subtly critical all of the time is very draining. Second – (and here I differ from Kim) do you think you would benefit from an antidepressant if only for short term, to get yourself more resilient?
I still get drilled about how much I am bringing in financially. No matter how I answer the question it can get distorted and is never quite in the format he wants (usually it digresses into how I should be keeping records of everything I bill on an excel spread sheet for I am paid a % of what my employer collects for my work) I have come to realize that is not the issue (and I am getting better about just diverting the discussion.)
I’m still hoping that staying will get things better, but I am “in the process, at a fairly rough patch,” so I can just offer support. I deeply believe that divorce is not going to make things better, and that sharing custody with these type of spouses is going to pose most of the same challenges as does living with them. Does it help to engage your husband around what kind of a relationship and role model he wants you and he to be for your children?
Remember you are not alone, and are far from a failure.
MR
Joyanne,
That issue is extremely challenging! I myself have struggled with it for years as well. I have tried explaining to my husband the difficulty getting intimate when he behaves emotionally disconnected, and void. I think it makes me feel like a prostitute to give myself to someone who isn’t at the same time able to connect in that emotional way. And then I leave the situation feeling used and disregarded. My husband has never understood my desire for emotional intimacy and my inability to share myself with him in that way if we have just had an issue, arguement, or are in repair mode (especially because “repair mode” after boundaries have been crossed, can take a while).
I’m not really sure I can give you any advise, but I can sympathize, as I agree with you and know how hard it can be. I do feel that he has NO RIGHT to bully you, or belittle you at this time. You have EVERY right to decide what feels comfortable and when you feel you want to get intimate is quite personal to you and your own situation.
I actually got into the very bad habbit of drinking alcohol to mask the feelings of disgust I had for my husband so I could have sex. It was awful!!! I became worried that he would go somewhere else to get it, so I very foolishly decided to degrade myself and behave in an unhealthy way to deal with it. Only, this just brought more problems into my life and I was not “dealing” with my ill feelings at all, I was just running away – and running away solves nothing! I feel much better now that I deal with my issues regarding myself and the narcissistic behavior.
I actually had to work on this issue of intimacy in therapy on my own with a professional. I became so cold and resentful that I was getting more and more distant and losing myself in the process. I want to try to make our marriage work and to do that I needed to try (as hard as it was) to build something with him slowly and at a comfort level that I was in control of.
Good luck, and remember that NO ONE has the right to make you feel badly about doing something you are not ok with!
Allison
Hey Kim! I just recently joined your website. I have determined that I am the co-dependent one. I think I kinda always knew that but never admitted it. Ok, long story–try to make it short:
My husband and I have been married for 8 years and been together for 9. For 7 years, my husband has lied to me, verbally and emotionally abused me, he never physically hit me though. I know back in 2006 we are on the verge of divorce and he lied to my family saying bad things about me, which of course they didn’t believe.
My husband lost his job in Dec. 2007. In April 2008 with moved in with my mother and brother–who is very very verbally and physically abusive (this we didn’t really know until we moved in). After living with him for a year, we finally got our own place.
Ok: now to the point: My husband quit calling me names and putting me down. He has really changed and is making an effort not to do those things. He is still not there for me emotionally. How do I get past the past and focus on the present and future? There are times when he will say something a certain way and I always want to close myself in. It’s an automatic reaction. When he does yell at me or use that tone, he comes back later and apologizes (something he really didn’t do before). I’m lost and really don’t know where to go from here.
I’m glad I found your website because I finally found someone who can relate to me and I can relate to them. We have a 5 yr old son and I don’t want to end my marriage. Truth be told though, if I didn’t have my son I probably would have left him a long time ago. Am I wrong for that??
Please anything you can suggested is truly appreciated.
Thanks
Hi Tonya,
The advice in “The Love Safety Net Workbook” will really help you develop a better attachment and better rapport and our new codependence package on our new introductory sales page will help you a lot too.
It is good he is making progress and these short eBooks will really help you build on that and develop deeper trust.
I only stayed with Steve because I didn’t have the money to leave and in the past to be honest I used to wish him dead! Now he is so dear to me I could never express it in words so no I don’t think you are wrong for staying because of your son and I also know that there is hope!
Kim
Allison, I can relate to the feelings of being “used” or “prostituted,” because along with just being emotionally disconnected, my husband is very into pornography. I hate it and secretly long for the day when I’ll be free of him and his perversions!
I’m not like you, Kim…I am not real sure I want my marriage to work out with this man, because I can’t see how he will ever be anything other than a slob and pervert and abuser. It looks hopeless for him but not for me as an individual.
Just to share a bit here of today’s fiasco with him.
He has a chiropractor appt Mon, Wed, Fri at 8 AM. He has been late for his appts ever since he scheduled the first one.
Today, I woke up close to 8, went and woke up him and he said “what time is it?” I said “8…your appt was at 8.” He asked “Why didn’t you wake me up?” I said, “you are 50 years old, not 14. I should not have to wake you up. That’s what alarm clocks are for!” Then he said, “You should have woken me up!”
He came upstairs and we got into an argument over the bills he hasn’t paid. I told him, “then you need to get a better job if you can’t pay the bills.” He said, “no, you need to go get a job instead of going to stupid college! It may help in the long run but it ain’t doin us any good now!” (he has jeapardized my chance to go back to 4 different colleges in the past. I’ve told him in the past, if he screws this up, I’m OUT!!! I have a right to an identity and a life free of reliance on a man who chooses to be irresponsible).
Finally, I said to him, “Roland, you are NOT going to scapegoat me for your irresponsibility.” He said, “it’s your responsibility to wake me up…you were up already so all ya had to do was wake me up.” Then he stomped out the door.
Last night, I attended a drama about domestic violence and abuse. I’ll tell you, if it weren’t for having a very impressionable 10 year old whose world counts on this illusion that mommy and daddy are happily married, I would have LEFT years ago!
Hi MR,
Sorry to hear that you are going through a really rough patch right now. I can relate! I’ve been feeling like the work load of managing this disorder is more than I want to take on. I’ve regressed a little over the past couple months and recently decided to take it day by day again and attack it that way.
When you talk about your situation and your husbands desire to “create” new things in his business I do feel similar. The difference for me is that my husband has not had success yet. He has been in “change” mode for the past several years. Although he only officially started his business in Feb. he has been planning and replanning, renaming, and researching and learning for the past 3-5 years. The past 6 months have been brutal because he has invested (time and $$$) in over 5 different business opportunities and never been able to follow through on any of them. Now he is “doing what he has wanted all along” and swears he will follow through. I guess that isn’t really the issue for me. The issue is the fact that our financial security is at risk now and he won’t address it realistically. He keeps telling me (like he has over and over again over the past 6 months) that the answer to the problem is to bring in income and that is what he is going to do with this most recent business venture. My problem isn’t that I don’t believe him, but that we have NO IDEA how long that will take and there is no guarantee that he will not lose his day job in the process. And our financial problems can not be put on hold. Fortunately, I was able to take some positive steps to get some control over our accounts and he hasn’t yet responded negatively. He seems to be glad to give me the responsibility of the bills and the finances and managing our debt. This worries me though because just a month ago he wouldn’t give me the passwords and gave me a really hard time when I said I wanted to manage the finances for us…. it’s odd that now it seems ok.
Anyway, I am at the beginning stage of this with him as far as the business goes. I don’t really mind backing off and letting him do his business the way he wants to as long as we are financially stable. The problem is that he obviously doesn’t see me as an equal and therefore I don’t (in his eyes) have the right to make decisions about our finances including his business. So when he makes a financial decision he doesn’t consult me anymore because his experience tells him I will not give in to his every whim and desire and he would rather just have his own way, but recently this has cost us another couple thousand dollars in debt and fees and bounced checks… all of which he says are worth it becasue his education is an investment for our future. I don’t have a say in the matter obviously.
I’d love your feedback if you are comfortable sharing. What has it been like for you to deal with your N in business? Did your finances go in the toilet? Have you been locked out of your right to make financial decisions that effect you and your children? Has your N been successful in follow through with business decisions, and have they been good deals? My husband gets his supply through this process. All the meetings, all the networking, all the dinners and lunches where he can hear how much people admire him for his determination and hard work… I can’t compete with it. I can’t cut it out of his life, it’s who he is. He would never even consider changing his ideas about his career. I am battling this every day because he spends most of his time feeding his supply which then turns into what a tebbile person I am for not believing in him when every one else does. And of course the more meetings he goes to the more ideas he gets from new people and new groups. I know it’s all part of the npd but I don’t know how to manage it with him persuing it every day.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Allison
Allison, Thank you for your response to my searching for answers about intimacy. I especially appreciated your statement at the end ” No one has the right to make you feel badly about doing something you are not ok with.”
It is very difficult to desire an intimate physical relationship with someone who yells at you, demeans you and accuses you. I try to tell him this but for some reason he can not see the connection between treating me nicely and making love.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I have a couple of question for Steve, if that’s ok. Steve, I listened to your radio show where the two of you where talking about the “Skeleton Woman” story, and you said that at point you had decided to leave Kim. May I ask what did Kim say or doing that made you change your mind? What was it that allowed you to start trusting her again and what led you to finding attractive her to you again. I hope that isn’t too personal. I hope to you understand what you were thinking during that time before things turned around and then how it did turn around for you two.
On another note, I have discovered that my NPD’r is spending a tremendous amount of time on a dating website. My girlfriend saw his profile online. I guess he doesn’t realize that a person can see when he’s on there without actually clicking on his profile. He is so arduous about how serioius his work is and how important tha he not be disterubed at work, when in fact, he’s spending 2 to 3 hours a day on this date site. I would say this is his fantasy life, clicking through girl’s profiles literally morning, noon and night. I’m doing “snip it” and stop exercise to keep myself from becoming upset. But does one compete with a fantasy world and fantasy life?? I’m real. I’m human and flaud like most people. How does one bring him back into reality?
My ambission is to disarm this destructive behavior.
Allison,
I’m happy to share and go through all of your questions. Still feeling rather hopeless here, although I knew this was going to be a stressful and difficult time, in the midst of it I am really wondering why I keep trying with someone who appears to care nothing for me and to be enjoying hurting me. (My empathy is on empty right now, and I am reacting to lots of little things despite my not wanting to do so.) I don’t know if Kim still is maintaining any sort of e-mail “penpal” system, for I am a little anxious about putting too much details out “on the web.” I am fearful that the “public / private” boundary gets blurred for me – because of my own nature and I guess because of my job as well.
Our timeline has been as follows – we were married in late 1999. My husband left his employment (secure government position) around March of 2001. I had been working an additional position to cover some extra costs because I wanted a house, and I knew I would have an income jump in a few months. My husband had moderate amounts of income from 2001 – 2006 often from other “small consulting type” sources. I think that in 2006 his income was a little greater than his expenses, and after that is has increased.
My income has always been good, and I have always provided all insurance, benefits etc. I began to decrease my work time after our 2nd child, and more with our 3rd. Only in the past 2 years have we been able to put anything into savings. My husband is less cautious about low ticket item purchases, eating out etc. than I am, and I have had to tolerate this all along (meeting his needs.) He never was reckless or excessive with these. With some minor exceptions he has kept his costs very streamlined as well. Because I knew I could cover our primary expenses the debt never was unreasonable.
(At some level, I wonder why I feel so hurt with how things are now …)
His business ideas were not a clear picture and a straight shot from 2001 to now. There is some connection between the areas he always discussed and explored and what he is doing now, but it never was easy to explain to anyone else what he was doing. I guess earlier it was easier for me to handle because I was working long hours, and the critical remarks to me were far less frequent. Juggling working and the first 2 babies 25 months apart kept me busy and distracted.
>>>Fortunately, I was able to take some positive steps to get some control over our accounts and he hasn’t yet responded negatively. He seems to be glad to give me the responsibility of the bills and the finances and managing our debt. This worries me though because just a month ago he wouldn’t give me the passwords and gave me a really hard time when I said I wanted to manage the finances for us…. it’s odd that now it seems ok. >>>
I have always manged our taxes – he pretty much ignores them beyond making quarterly payments. It always was a trigger for arguments (I think it made him feel insecure) I have resented this the past 2 years because they are much more complicated and I have to make my best guess around some of the business issues etc. He has generally done our primary bill paying etc. Early on I suggested he do it on line, which he distrusted and generated some arguments between us. Now he does many accounts this way (and has reduced the amount of late fees/penalties etc.) I have offered to do them, most recently when one of my credit cards went unpaid, but he has not accepted. I do not have the on line account password, but I have considered taking back at least my personal credit cards and some other things. When he pushes at me about what I am making, or “checking” about minor charges, I consider this more strongly. His behavior around money is not not consistently “controlling,” but does flair when other stress or anxieties increase for him.
In general I have come to recognize that when I am over tired, when I am feeling insecure myself, … at those times I get more worried and more reactive. I can also tell when the tension is starting to build between us, he is more critical and more isolating from me … I do know that as he has become more financially successful (essentially no longer needing me) the proportion of the time he is “dis-satisfied” with me has increased. He also knows that those are “my buttons.” Currently it is about 100%. I feel he has been building the scenerio in his mind that he no longer needs me for anything (ie the nannies can be an adequate substitute, especially as he convinces himself I am not good for the children.)
>>>> The problem is that he obviously doesn’t see me as an equal and therefore I don’t (in his eyes) have the right to make decisions about our finances including his business. So when he makes a financial decision he doesn’t consult me anymore …>>>
My husband used to talk to me more about what he was doing etc,. Earlier in our relationship I would listen for a long time about his ideas and strategies (I now see as reinforcing for him.) I tried to listen and help, but my mind does not think the same way as his … I am more limited by the traditional models, and if I pointed out the issues I saw, a conflict began and I became “not supportive.” Because he has pointed out over the years about how my comments often seem negative to him, I have tried my best to counter that habit. Prior to my helping him he again tried to discuss a lot. I loved that feeling, because we had started to loose so much shared time, but it also became a set-up for my being inadequate and “reinforced” how I was not smart enough – or he was “better.”
>>>I’d love your feedback if you are comfortable sharing. What has it been like for you to deal with your N in business? Did your finances go in the toilet? Have you been locked out of your right to make financial decisions that effect you and your children? Has your N been successful in follow through with business decisions, and have they been good deals? >>>
Any business decisions he makes on his own – I’ve given him full freedom around that. Sometimes the technology “toy,” purchases etc seem excessive to me, but I try and take a big picture perspective and realize they are not so significant. (This has been easier in the last few years.) There have certainly been moderate expenses which were not necessary and not helpful, but at least earlier in our marriage he would explain his strategy to me. I tried to trust his judgement about these. There were a few which were more difficult to support, and these were usually driven by his fear and a desire to try and take excessive precautions (I can explain more by e-mail if needed) I would say that any non-business big financial decisions he has either made on his own (where if I knew about it ahead of time I agreed in part because I was trying to make him feel I was being supportive,) or most he takes a more passive role (leaving me to make the decision and then to be blamed for whatever fault he found in it later.)
>>>>My husband gets his supply through this process. All the meetings, all the networking, all the dinners and lunches where he can hear how much people admire him for his determination and hard work… I can’t compete with it. I can’t cut it out of his life, it’s who he is. He would never even consider changing his ideas about his career. I am battling this every day because he spends most of his time feeding his supply which then turns into what a terribile person I am for not believing in him when every one else does. And of course the more meetings he goes to the more ideas he gets from new people and new groups. I know it’s all part of the npd but I don’t know how to manage it with him persuing it every day.>>>>
Oh believe me I understand the narcissistic supply of networking and meetings etc! My husband puts on a conference at this point, and organizes on line panels and meetings etc. Bringing together “high level experts,” can bring you into their circle … the perfect narcissistic position??? Take what you are experiencing and compound it with the fact that the “meetings,” are his! I get caught with a mix of pride for what he has done, and nausea for the hypocracy between the public persona and the one I live with. That has gotten stronger as he has gotten stronger, and I wish I could focus more on the pride.
Sometimes I wonder if Kim’s strategies will work in our case, because my husband’s biggest failing is in his responsibility to maintain a good relationship with his spouse, and this is easy to blame entirely on me. It is tough to build attachment when he is actively trying to disengage from me. I’m struggling to not be so caught up with my own hurt that I can’t be calmly assertive but rather am over-sensitive to less significant issues. I’m very afraid he is going to leave once this project is done … I do not want that to happen and (my own narcissistic ?) part of me will feel like a failure if he does.
Hope that helps … and it gave me the opportunity to vent through some things as well. As others have said on this blog before … thanks to everyone … this community has really been a great support and a lifeline while struggling with these issues.
MR
Hi MR,
Wow, thank you so much for sharing! I feel like I “know” you better than I know my husband. I guess because your situation has similarities that make me feel “home”. It’s like I can relate to you and understand your situation so much more easily than I can understand the narcissism, because we’ve probably gone through some of the same feelings and the same torture with this disease.
I don’t think that anyone can truly empathize with a person dealing with a narcissist unless they are dealing with one themselves. That is hard for me becasue I need support on a regular basis, and my family and friends just don’t get it. They try and they listen, but they don’t know what I feel like. Only the victims of narcissism know what it feels like. And there aren’t any support groups that meet to talk around here that are related to npd.
Anyway… thank you again for sharing, I appreciate your honesty and friendship. One day at a time over here. And that’s all I can do right now.
Allison
Maybe this is narcissistic of me to say, but I’ve been feeling very ignored on this list lately. Seems I post but nobody responds and they just keep telling their own stories.
I guess I have a boundary that requires feedback at least once in while, please.
What’s going on with you Laura? How are things? Are you going through an “upswing” or are you dealing with the trauma right now?
Allison
Laura,
My husband went ahead and followed through with his newest opportunity and career endeavor. I was unable to get through to him, regardless of my thoughtful and considerate arguements to the contrary.
He has control of where his $$$ gets spent, blah blah blah! But I have begun to take steps to control the finances at this point…
How did you have success keeping your husband from moving forward???
Allison
Hi Kim and Steve, I am new here. I believe that my husband is a Narcisstic.He is very sucessful with a high professional job. I have observed that he is unable to see his flaws.It seems to build him up when he constantly point out my flaws and faults.He has unresolved issues and pain from previous failed marriages,and he take it out on me.I have tried in a loving ways to help him to be aware of his own behavior but i just wasted my energy and time. I feel that he is afraid to see himself and if he were aware that he has flaws, it will destroy him.He act crazy when he see my flaws and that is not normal behavior.I love him, how can i help him heal so that we can have a strong healthy marriage?
Hi MR,
Just back arrived back after being away the last couple of weeks – so many postings to catch up on. I was really pleased to hear that you have been listening to Kim and Steve’s Audios in your car while commuting (perhaps you should only listen to Sarah’s relaxation audios when not driving though?).
I recalled the audio you were talking about and I had nodded my head also – I identified whole heartedly with what Kim and Steve were saying – that when Steve used to appear “easy going” by not negotiating, but later complained about the outcome or events – he was actually being the aggressor.
My husband does this frequently, he pretends to be easy going when all the time he is setting me up for after-the-fact criticism, saying that “he doesn’t get a say” or “I always do whatever I want anyway”, etc.
If that were the case why, in the first place, would I ask him every time for the purpose of negotiation what he would like to do with the options/choices we have? It is aggressive behaviour on his part and later (full of self pity and resentment) he will either sulk, make deriding comments about me, others or the event, and/or make remarks about how much he didn’t enjoy himself, and/or that he wanted to do something else, etc.
I used to become distressed that I had upset him and would try to make amends or placate him. But when I recognised the real problem many years ago and learned to make note of the course of events ready for times of such aggression – I would then recall to him that I did ask for his input and remind him of his response.
He still does it though – and I am still always careful to say right from the start “is there something you would prefer to do instead?” This leaves the door open for him to negotiate with me, or for him to make a decision for himself. The times I find more difficult to deal with is when he won’t respond at all – it becomes a situation of “I am damned if I do, and damned if I don’t”.
Nevertheless I have learned over the years to go ahead with what I want to do if I have given him the opportunity to negotiate, and have been given the “easy going response” or the “non-response”, but I do remain prepared for the aggression later. If I give into his mind games “to make him happy”, then I would be handing over control of myself to him, and would be giving him unhealthy attention. I also am entitled to “have a life” filled with pleasant experiences, and to work toward achieving my goals.
Have you been able to see your son’s head mistress/nun yet? If so, I hope she was able to give you the support and understanding you need during this difficult time – and especially for the well being and pastoral care of your son. Maybe she will be a valuable member of your support network in future?
With respect to what your husband may be addicted to – maybe it is not substance abuse, porn, gambling or some other vice – maybe it is addiction to fame, fortune and the “limelight” – and his computer/business?
My husband, to my horror, enjoys and strives to be in the company of the rich and famous – he equates this with success. This company he keeps is frequently filled with people of narcissistic tendencies – each striving to be the centre of attention. Many of them are so fake I just want to “puke”.
I have often said to my husband I don’t enjoy that sort of company – I love our old circle of friends – the friends we have had nearly all our married life – the ones that are unpretentious, honest and caring.
However, my husband continues to be drawn to the rich and famous like a “moth to the light” and he has already been burned badly once before, but he is still attracted to that limelight! His obsession with this league of people was really at an all time high during all of last year and coming up to Christmas 2008 – and guess what – he was especially cold, arrogant, rude, disengaged, haughty, sulking, and verbally aggressive toward me during that period of time – talking like a single man leaving me questioning whether he was planning separation and divorce.
He was also behaving very fake, confabulating,very full of himself and theatrical – like he was so important, entitled, and above everyone and everything. After having learned so much about Narcissism since early this year I now believe that when he finally did say he wanted a divorce but wanted us to continue in business together, and not to have a divorce settlement – that he was wanting to maintain his successful businessman persona and material wealth to stay up there in that league of people.
Unaware of that possibility due to not knowing about Narcissism, but at the time only out of concern of what was best for me – I had responded that I would not continue in business with him, that we would divorce and our marital assets would be split up hopefully in a fair and amicable divorce settlement. My husband was shocked that I was not just going to go along with what he wanted (I see now as to maintain his “image”).
I now can see how much I had been used over the years to build our business and financial success – I have put in about 60-80 hours a week since 1983! My husband believes he is entitled to all the credit and accolades of our success instead of sharing it with me – we both have contributed and worked very hard to achieve what we have. His agenda was all along it seems to be rich and famous, a person of power, importance and control – and in doing so he had been exploiting me all along, all while showing very little respect or gratitude towards me – but why should he because I in effect accepted his maltreatment and sacrificed my well-being by doing everything I could to “make him successful and happy”.
When I said no to his proposal it was like I pulled the rug out from under his agenda – he came back to earth with a jolt – and he then retracted from wanting a divorce. Not prepared for or wanting divorce at the time, and with my father gravely ill, I was an emotional mess, I also opted to stay in the marriage, and to do as much work as I could to build a healthy relationship. My Personal Bill of Rights is extremely important to me – and I have learned how to more assertively protect my boundaries – in return I am being respected more and more as I grow in this area.
There has been improvement, but I remain exhausted from being constantly on guard against Narcissistic behaviour. I can’t change him – I learned that many, many years ago – I can only change myself and the things in my life that affect me. I found Kim and Steve’s latest radio show on “Facing Your Codependence” very inspiring and I am keen to get their 10 Steps and to work on them.
“The only difference between a dream and a goal is a time-line.”
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Everyone,
In recent postings – I have noticed that there have been many people struggling over financial security/control/independence. Is it possible to visit your credit card provider/banking institutions/taxation office/creditors/etc and have your financial affairs separated from your Narcissist?
Get rid of as many joint accounts/credit cards as possible. Have his name removed from your credit card if he is an additional card holder. If he really needs a credit card he should have his own and be responsible for payment of it too. Get advice from a banker/solicitor/ accountant/etc. Write letters to creditors cancelling credit/trading accounts that are in joint names.
When purchasing an asset with your money, do so in your own name so it cannot be used as collateral for loans/credit cards & applications, etc in his name.
I have been fortunate to manage our accounts all these years, and I am trained and qualified to do so. I would be very nervous about giving control of my own financial/taxation affairs to a husband/partner who has narcissistic tendencies (since they are frequently known to be dreamers, high-flyers, always out to get fast or big buck with little concept of reality when it comes to the financial “crunch” and sometimes with questionable honesty).
I do not advocate that you look after your Narcissist’s financial affairs – but to at least be in control of your own – and not to bail your Narcissist out if he gets into financial trouble – in other words, make him stand on his own two feet by getting him in touch with reality and by making him accountable.
Taking these steps may encourage him to achieve financial independence from you by getting a real job instead of pursuing “get rich quick schemes”. If he lacks personal or work skills challenge him to develop or improve on those skills by getting educated.
Also challenge him to learn accounting principles, and methods of book-keeping including computer programs designed for that purpose.
I appreciate there are varying degrees of financial strain in each relationship, and that there are shared expenses when living together, but seriously I would not let someone who is emotionally immature and full of self-interest manage most or all of my financial income and interests – it is a potential recipe for your own financial disaster all while you may have been working and bringing in an honest income and living modestly yourself.
“Never do for someone what they could or should do for themselves.”
Good Luck & Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
I am glad I found this website. I was married for 38 years, and am now a vibrant, sexy, athletic, engaging 65 year old with tons of confidence.
I left the marriage in 2003. I, at first blamed him for whatever “didn’t work”. I have since taken responsibility for my contribution. I had covered up my feelings for all those years. I did everything to/for him. I allowed him to passify me with false promises and passive aggressive behavior. We were in counseling for 7 1/2 years. After counseling The overt, abusive behavior ceased.( I don’t ever remember hearing the word narcissistic applied towards my husband.) Our day-day relations were good.
I have recently become attracted to,in the most compelling way, a man that I am sure is narcissistic to some degree, as well. I have kept a journal for 1 1/2 years and made a note of this red flag early on when I first met him.
His first wife of one year, committed suicide. His 2nd wife died of cancer. He was in a tumultous relationship – on-again-off-again for 6 years, when I met him. Because of our mutual, varied interests, I saw him several times a week. We did a lot of flirting. I put out bids to him, he put out bids to me. I set up boundaries and would not go to his house because he had too much to drink. I told him another time. In the meantime, he met another gal online,less than a month after his breakup, and he has been with for almost one year. He has cheated on her, he has blamed others and not taken personal responsibility. He claims that the cheating was one time only. He distorts the truth and manipulates. He has been abusive in emails and phone conversations with his women. The current one is in love with him. I tried to talk to her. I am sure he manipulated the situation so that she would not believe me or any “impartial” person who was aware of his cheating. She, in a brief second, told me she was breaking away, but it was sooooo hard. He has all the props and money he needs to woo her back with great nights and vacations, and he does, probably telling her she’s the only one and he loves only her.
I believe he is just going through the motions with her. She very definately is his NS. She was over-the-top at first, with the overt adulation. I’m sure when it doesn’t continue with the same intensity, that is when they have “issues”.
I seem to be attracted deeply and unconsciously to narcissistic men. I am working to get the best education I can so that I protect myself. Are those of us who have had troubled families of origin and who are in the helping professions, (teaching or degrees in psychology,) are we more likely to “want to help or fix these wounded birds?” This attraction to him was at a core, very unconscious level. It is still there. I still continue to see him and his girlfriend at group functions. I give “I” messages, which I have used since early counseling. I have boundaries of the behavior I will accept.
I have gone through EMDR therapy since my divorce, which I think has helped tremendously with my self esteem. I am in a great place. I am establishing boundaries for myself and am learning to be “selfish”. This is HUGE!
Hopefully, my two, adult sons, will not have their father’s narcissism and my support of that narcissism for so many years affect them too much. I will study their situation with new “eyes”.
I am learning and growing everyday. I am compelled to fit all the pieces of the puzzle together so that I get a better understanding of who I am. I am on the road to finding a really good, caring, empathetic man! I think I am pretty good at spotting the narcissistic man. One of the first things this latest guy told me on our first date was, “I’ve hurt women. I haven’t wanted to.” That was one of the red flags.
To ALLISON: thank you for acknowledging me. I’m doing ok actually now, but there are times the N’ism just really bugs the crud outta me, ya know?
This ENTITLEMENT they have really is for the birds! Everyone needs to do his or her share, not expect people to be their slaves just cause they think they deserve it. My husband…ugh sometimes, just ugh.
I was just feeling ignored in a lot of ways so I appreciate that you dropped me a line. Thank you again.
Laura, I can understand your feeling of being ignored. I think maybe not everyone writes back to what someone said here but we read it and think about it. What you said about entitlement and being a “slave” is so true. My husband likes me to serve lunch or breakfast to him in bed. He likes me to stay there with him to provide conversation while he eats too. Most of the time I do not do this unless he is sick.
My husband is odd though because he can be fairly nice to me for about 2-3weeks a month and then I go through 10 days of pure hell where he, yells at me, puts me down and is demanding. Then when that time frame is over, he slowly becomes somewhat pleasant again but life is still about him. It is his monthly what I call a “snit”. Haha
He thinks life goes right back to normal after the snit with no apologies or anything. I am saying no to that because the verbal abuse kind of kills emotional and physical intimacy with someone. Everytime he has a reason why it happened the way it did. Everytime he says to me “cant we just forget about the past and move forward?” Sad for him to be so locked into his awful behavior and not be able to see it.
Hang in there and take care of YOURSELF.
Life right now is very tricky for me. I just found out that I owe $660 from the college I was attending before I switched to a local one. It is to cover tuition that the grants and loans did not cover. My husband said “tell em to sue us cause we can’t pay ANY of it!” So, I wrote and told the lady what he said and explained my circumstances again. I have no clue what will happen next, but God knows and is in control.
As for my husband, I have not been intimitate with him in some time and I do not sleep with him anymore either. personally, I got sick of being told “all the books say you are supposed to respond THIS way,” as if I am some sort of defective toy. I am tired of being used and made to feel defective, so I sleep alone and actually DO sleep now instead of getting his knee pounding down on my chest when he flips over and it falls on top of me.
I really still have no clue how Kim and Steve have worked this stuff out…I work it out by TOLERATING this man and doing what I can to remember he is SICK and might never change. Secretly, I long for better days though…I really do!
Laura, I try to think of my husband as a child throwing a temper tantrum when he doesnt get his own way. I am struggling with still loving him but not his behavior. I was starting to lose myself because of him verbally beating me down. I think we have to be careful not to lose ourselves while we are waiting and hoping our husbands will change. There is not alot of encouraging material out there about narcissists changing except for Kim and Steve’s.
Hi Laura,
Although I haven’t directly responded to your posts in the past, I hope that you may have got some support from postings I have made to others. Each one of us here tries to help others by writing about our own lives by sharing our own experiences, frustrations, hopes, strengths, weaknesses, successes, and failures (the latter of which I prefer to call “future challenges”).
Where we have been caught up in the past analysing what makes our partner happy or unhappy and pivoting our life around that analysis, many of us are just in the early stages of shifting our focus onto ourselves and what we need to do to find happiness within ourselves instead of through our partner – all while living with a partner who is most likely not working on their own personal growth (because they have not been sufficiently compelled to do so) and therefore they are continuing to behave with self-absorption , irresponsibility, and perhaps immorality.
Well done for pursuing your College education – how long before you finish? This is a healthy goal to strive for – hopefully financial strain does not delay you from achieving this goal. Are you fully financially dependent on your husband? If so, would you consider writing to your previous College again and tell them that even though your husband is not able to pay the $660 bill, that you would like to pay when you can and is there some arrangement that you can come to with them? I believe it is important to protect your OWN reputation at all times (even if your husband is taking an opposite stance on the payment of this bill).
How have you tackled getting the pornography out of your home? It is a difficult one – Kim and Steve have many excellent articles and audios on this. Are you able to draw a line in the sand with your husband? Are you able to tell him that it is not acceptable to you to have pornography in your home? And to tell him that you would like to have an intimate and sexually fulfilling relationship with him, but you feel you cannot because his use of pornography destroys your desire to be intimate with him? Of course, if he is addicted to pornography, he will perhaps not easily let go of this addiction. Try not to be hurt or upset if he does not let go easily – his addiction is not about you – but pursue the fact that pornography is harmful, it statistically destroys relationships, it is two dimensional and nothing more than empty FANTASY. Tell him that you are a REAL person, a warm blooded woman with REAL needs and that he can satisfy you without the need for pornography (said just in case he has feelings of sexual inadequacy) and that you have a lot to give him in return, and that you miss the guy you fell in love with.
Remain calm and respectful toward him at all times (even though you might feel angry, hurt and frustrated underneath). Pick your time and place, and be well prepared emotionally to tackle this.
Remember to breathe – and to choose your language carefully, keeping your voice low and controlled – free of blame and ultimatums. You can do this by focussing on what you want for yourself, for your future, your health and well-being. Be clear about your moral standards and what is acceptable to you and what is not.
If he warms towards you, tell him that you are wanting a healthy and loving relationship with him from now on and for that to happen you want to immediately block access to pornography sites on his computer (if he has a computer that is, and he should not then have the password to the blocking feature). Have pornographic type phone numbers barred from your telephones – including mobiles/cell phones. Get rid of all pornographic books and pictures – burn them, dump them or do with them whatever you want that would be therapeutic for you too – shred them and feed them to the worms and watch your garden grow! Pornography can be an expensive habit/addiction too. If he agrees to your terms – you know what to do next! But remember to forgive and forget, put the past out of your mind, enjoy and heal yourselves day by day!
If he does not want to give up his pornography addiction – who in your support network would he least like to know about this?? Tell them, and seek their support, and tell him also that you have sought their support if you consider it safe and/or necessary to do so.
“The quickest way to success is to behave your way to success!”
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Everyone,
I have just purchased and read Kim’s 10 Steps to Overcome Codependence. In Kim’s established tradition, she has produced yet another powerful tool to point us in the right direction toward emotional maturity and personal success. While I feel like I am mostly on the right track these days, Kim’s material always provides something new for me to consider and/or learn. I can’t wait now to find the time to listen to the 3 audios that come with this purchase. Congratulations & well done, Kim, and thanks again to you and Steve for devoting so much of your lives to help others like me.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
CD,
Thank you for your post to me.
First of all, my husband has been addicted to pornography since we first met, so it’s not likely to be something he gives up at all, let alone easily. Porn was how my husband learned about sex in the first place as a child. It is cemented into him.
Yes, I wrote back to the school and told them that I’d be willing to pay the $660 out of my stipend money from my Living Expense check I’ll be getting from my current college. I thought it was the right thing to do too, but I’m used to bills going unpaid by him. If it weren’t for my brother in law paying our back taxes and buying our house and property back, we would not have a house right now…a guy bought the back taxes and we were about to lose our house not long ago.
This man I married has ruined friendships, destroyed job opportunities and careers for me, killed pets, and basically, I do not WANT to love him or work things out…I just sometimes want OUT!!! That’s where I’m at now.
I’m glad things worked out for Steve and Kim, but I do not even have money to buy any audios from them, because my husband will not go and get a better job that covers basic living expenses so the bills are paid on time.
People who are not truly married to narcissists, seem to still think they respond to normal threats, or reasoning, or gentle words…they just don’t…they do not care and they rarely change! I just want to get my college degree, land an awesome job, grow my youngest daughter up, and LEAVE here.
Thanks for your caring comments, everyone
Hi Kim
Im new to this site and have found it very helpful wish i had found it sooner.My husband of 18years has been a complete nightmare. We were told that he had Narcissim about 3years ago which i had never heard of before and he felt that there wasnt anything wrong with him but it was all me. I was a full time mum for 15 years of our marriage and found that things started to go wrong once i had started to work and found Jacky again. I still included him in my work new friends but it still was not enough. i left him 15 months ago as i didnt have the knowledge tht i have now and move a few streets away with our youngest daughter. Im finding myself still drawn into his web. For the last five months we have progressed from shouting to talking he tells me that he still finds me attractive and still love me but he cant trust me for walking out on him and for leaveing the two teenagers with him, i asked my other two children if they wanted to come but they choose to stay the children and i have a very good relationship. i have kept my door open to them and they come and visit whenever they like. i have tried to do birthdays family gatherings with their dad at my home to let them see that we can talk but this has been one sided. My husband has a girlfriend which has an on of relationship and he has lied about her and said that its not serious. We have gotten intermit and he knows how i feel but i always ended up been hurt, as i would love to get help and tell him about his problem and to put all the wrong things right but whenever we touch on this he goes in the opposite direction. He still likes to know how i spend my spare time and although i have told him that im not interested in finding another relationship im continuosly asked. Why do i still have feeling for this guy after the way he treats me and the verbal abuse that comes with it. we have know each other for 22years half of my life has been spent with this person. Its coming up for another weekend he has our daughter and im on my own , i havent made many friend and the ones that i have made all have families. i have done counseling on my own and it has helped but it hasn’t given me the answers. I feel lost and along
Hi Laura,
In my situation, my goal is to take back from my narcissist my power over myself because I learned many years ago that I was powerless over his addiction to alcohol and the behaviour associated with it which is narcissism.
Every time I reacted to his unacceptable behaviour with anger, tears, disrespect, yelling and screaming, not only did I widen the rift that had developed between us over his addiction, but I also gave my power away to him when I had misguidedly thought that my yelling and screaming should knock some sense into him. It never did. In fact he used my behaviour to justify his own. I also must have looked very unattractive to him – and I know in myself that I did not like losing my temper, dignity or grace – but being emotionally immature at the time – I would lose it only to regret it later, and I would suffer deep remorse and guilt while taking full responsibility for the crisis – cycled with justifying my behaviour by saying to myself (and sometimes to him) “but he MADE me lose my temper”. In actual fact no-one MAKES us do anything – we CHOOSE our own behaviour – they way we react negatively or the way we respond positively or assertively.
It took a long time for me to accept that I have no control over his addiction – I cannot change him, only he can change himself. So where did that leave me? Powerless? Hopeless? Trapped? Then many years ago after a long period of self-growth in Al-Anon, I gradually learned that I was powerless over him but I was not powerless over myself, that there was hope for ME, and that led to freedom whether I stayed in the marriage or not.
As I changed my attitudes and priorities, and became more secure within myself – no matter what external forces threatened that security from time to time – I regained my power over myself. My codependence increasingly diminished and I was then able to take a stance on not caretaking my husband. For example – there had been many times when he arrived home so drunk that he wasn/t able to scratch himself even if he wanted to, he was incoherent, horribly abusive and physically intimidating.
Then one day, after having learned in Al-Anon how to find solutions to my problems, I informed him calmly and clearly in a respectful way while holding eye contact, that if he was arrested for drink driving I would not bail him out. He thought I was joking at first, but I held eye contact and he soon realised that I meant what I said. He has taken great care since then not to over-indulge if he is going to drive – however I would think he would be over the limit most of the time – but my stance has not changed because of a reduction in his alcohol consumption.
This was the first of many stances I had to take against his alcoholism, and each time I did I could literally see guilt on his face – that he knew he had a problem (even though he constantly denied it), and that the problem was now RESPECTFULLY being put squarely back on his lap to deal with – and most of the time he lifted his game.
Now I don’t want to take any credit, nor be given any credit, for any changes he has made in himself – that credit belongs to HIM. He may have made changes in response to my stances, but he had to make that choice for himself BY HIMSELF.
I realised many years into the marriage that he would have been an alcoholic when I married him, but back then I thought it was something he would grow out of like the rest of us. Unfortunately he did not. His addiction is just the same as any other addiction. I did not cause it, and I cannot change it, but I had to learn how not to perpetuate it.
I did however change myself from having sought my happiness through him in the past, to finding happiness within myself. My power to do that in part lies within defining clear boundaries of what is and what is not acceptable behaviour to me, and what the consequences will be for unacceptable behaviour that I will put into action. Just the same way we parent a child in a healthy way. We should not deliver the consequences of unacceptable behaviour to a child by yelling and screaming at them, nor beating up on them, nor by belittling or putting them down, nor other negative type reactions. We should deliver our consequences in a clear and respectful way, keeping our voice low and controlled. This applies to our life partner as well – whether narcissitic or not – they are human beings just like us, with shortcomings just like us.
I know my husband suffered emotional and verbal abuse as a child and (I witnessed it) when he was a young adult from his narcissistic father. It is no wonder he has had huge problems with his own negative, abusive and offensive behaviour through his adult life – and he has hidden his true-self all these years behind a mask of over-confidence, self-assurance and inflated ego. He constantly reacts to external forces – he cannot cope with any level of constructive or negative criticism – but he sure can dish negative criticism out with a hide as thick as a rhinosaurus to take the focus off himself!
Recently he has admitted to having had a very bad gambling addiction too in the early years of our marriage which I didn’t know about – but it sure explains now why I was given very little money at the time to feed and clothe the family and pay the bills – sometimes we were in very dire straits. It also explained the aggression he had towards me (out of guilt, inadequacy & fear of exposure) if I asked back then where all the money was going besides on alcohol and cigarettes – which was bad enough without gambling too. It was a nightmare. It wasn’t until I got control of the finances when we started out in business together that things improved. There were times when he would steal money from me – even before we were married – and blame it on a “break and enter” when there was no evidence of that – but I was so trusting/codependent that I believed him! That never happened again when after yet another “event” I tried to call the police in to investigate – he stopped me – he said there was not enough money missing to worry about it – if only I knew then as much as what I know now I would have followed through with the police! We did have a real robbery some years later though and the police were called in!
I agree with you Laura, we cannot change our narcissist. But I expand on that belief that our narcissist can change themselves when sufficiently compelled and inspired to do so. It is not our job to “save” or “fix” them, but if we choose to stay in the relationship, even for a short distance, isn’t it better to look for more positive interaction?
The narcissist must suffer the consequences of his actions – he must not be protected. If my husband’s actions affect me negatively then I must find a way to deal with it positively to protect my OWN health, safety and well-being. It is not easy!
Through your subscriber link to thelovesafetynet.com website you will find many audios that are free for download when Kim and Steve used to broadcast on Internet Radio Australia. These audios are extremely good – I hope you will listen to them and find them as valuable as I did whether or not you stay in your relationship.
Click on “The Love Safety Net Radio – Our popular archived radio shows”
On the next page scroll down and click on “Go to archive”
On the next page you will see and extensive range of free radio shows to select from and download.
Some of the shows still say “coming soon” and I hope they do because I have found all the ones available of great value.
I have suggested in previous posts to others to record these shows to CD and play them on their car stereo when commuting – effective use of travelling time while learning about co-dependence & narcissism.
Good Luck and Stay in Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD
I greatly appreciated your last email and found it helpful because I am still trying to figure out how to balance love and consequences. The consequences seem to be easier to meter out but the love in my heart for my husband seems to be disappearing. I am not sure how you found that balance of staying in love and giving consequences lovingly to someone who is verbally/emotionally abusing you?
Any insights will be appreciated.
Hi Joyanne,
That is a very good question constantly on the minds of everyone who posts to this website, including me.
My self-analysis is that when I met my husband 34 years ago, I fell in love with the man I believed to be his authentic self – kind, sensitive, humorous, charming, trustworthy, strong, intelligent, talented, independent, hard-working, adventurous, handsome, attractive, loving and much more. He still has all of those qualities in him, and I continue to love him for those qualities.
When I married my husband I believed my love for him would conquer the difficulties he had with his father and his deep hurt associated with that, and the difficulties he already had with his alcohol abuse that I naively thought he would grow out of. Many years later I was to discover that he used, and was addicted to, alcohol to escape from his pain. He also was addicted to cigarettes but gave that up when our children were small.
My love for my husband was real, but the nurturer in me also wanted to heal his pain, heal the hurt child in him and that was the co-dependent in me (which I did not know what that was back then) that just wanted to make him happy so we could both be happy. I would care-take, protect, beg, abuse, love, hate, cling, abandon and so on. The more I clung onto that fantasy and pointless behaviour the stronger his alcoholism/narcissism developed and the more our relationship deteriorated.
Serious damage had then been caused to the original love and attraction we had for each other, we had lost respect for each other and most of all we had lost sight of our true selves – our authentic selves.
History has it now that we both had just lost our way in a downward spiral of emotional immaturity and unhealthy ego. I don’t believe there is such a thing as a perfect marriage and life, but it had become a living hell until I found my way into Al-Anon and it took me a long time to learn, let go, soul search, forgive, shift my focus onto me and my goals, emotionally grow and mature, love and respect myself again, command instead of demand respect, and so on.
Getting real and finding our authentic selves and striving to achieve our individual goals is the true path to a fulfilling life and loving relationships, and the more we succeed at that the more chance we have to heal our relationship, and the more chance we have to build trust and attachment. This is also a time when we reassess why we are in the relationship, how can we love if our partner continues to abuse us? Each one of us has to find our own answer to that. My answer to me is not simple. Firstly there is a bond there that wavered (but did not disappear entirely even though at times I thought it might) with my self-growth over the years. Secondly each time I protect my boundaries assertively and respectfully, he responds positively more often than not these days. Thirdly, not only is he my lover and my husband, the father of my now adult children, but he is my business partner and many people depend upon us for their livelihood – it is not a decision to take lightly to go our separate ways, and if there is a chance that we can rise above this disorder, then we will strive for that. Finally he has been mostly operating at the level of unhealthy “ego” all his life, and it is not easy for him to change, and he has been questioning his behaviour and motives since I have followed Kim and Steve’s program and protected my boundaries in a clearer and more positive way.
I still love the man I fell in love with and continues to be (in between bouts of projected hurt and abuse). I wrongly believed I could heal the hurt child in him back then. I no longer believe I can do that now, but I can provide a safe and predictable environment for him to heal and grow in – if and when he chooses to do so. Children test healthy boundaries, but trust healthy boundaries also when they are enforced with respect and tough love. Children respond well to respect. The same works for the child in an adult too.
I am also prepared to leave the relationship, even while still loving him, because I know full well that alcoholism is a progressive disease and despite his and my best efforts to stay together, we may have to part ways – not the outcome I would like, but the choice I may have to make for my own health and well-being.
There is no such thing as “perfection” because we humans are never perfect, and while we may give our best until we know better, each of us are entitled to be accepted for not being perfect, and being forgiven for making negative choices along the way.
Good Luck and Stay in Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi again Joyanne,
Just thought I would give you the short answer version of my last post, there is a saying that goes something like this:
“You cannot truly know and love another until you first truly know and love yourself”.
If you find your current form of love disappearing it is because you are finding out who you really are – your authentic self, and you are establishing and protecting your healthy boundaries more assertively now, and perhaps setting new goals for yourself. The form of love that would be disappearing is the unhealthy type of love. Any healthy form of love you have between you will gradually grow – there will be setbacks as change can “rock the boat” periodically for a while – and you will probably find yourself exhausted many times from practising “tough love” while perhaps needing huge amounts of patience (which is a virtue).
You will probably also find yourself reassessing your relationship many times over while you are growing and becoming stronger – none of us can know the future until we get there – but we need courage to accept the things we cannot change, and courage to change the things we can no matter what the outcome. (It is important to remember though that we can only change ourselves and “things” – we cannot change other people, only they can do that for themselves – and they may or may not do that in response to positive changes in ourselves.)
Good Luck and Stay in Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD
I read both of your posts several times to let them sink in. I have been going to counseling alone and I am making changes and maybe like you said that is why I feel differently. You are right about me setting new boundaries because I have had to work in that area.
It felt good to hear you say put into words an explanation for the changes in my life and who I am.
My husband I have been married only 18 mo. He has been verbally abusive monthly during that time mostly directed at me when we are alone. He recently changed that when he yelled at my daughter for asking for a piece of pizza. I had to ask her to leave the room and I asked him to stop yelling at her so he yelled at me instead. I stood my ground and when she was out of the room I walked away and told him we could discuss it another time when he was not so into it emotionally.
This past weekend was way over the top with him verbally attacking me and calling me stupid in front of my teenage daughters. They of course told him I am not stupid and it is wrong for him to treat me that way. So he turned on them and verbally abused them and in the process called them stupid also. I made a quick decision to get out of the house. We had to take the dog and went to a friends house for a few hours to let him calm down. We never know when he will be in this spiteful mood.
He is also bi-polar and has NPD. I am ready to give him an ultimatum of going back to his psychiatrist and getting his meds adjusted and we go to marriage counseling or we separate and he moves out. ( This is my house.)I have talked to his bro-in-law who is married to his bi-polar sister who has had to take a similar stance.
I know I love him but I also love myself and my girls. I know that I can’t continue life this way. It is not good for me or good for my daughters.
I am going to write out what I want to say because he interrupts me, talks over me and interrogates me to the point I forget my thoughts. LOL ( have a good sense of humor and that gets me through alot.)Not that I don’t cry, but I never cry in front of him anymore.
Thanks so much for putting that all into words, CD! And to EVERYONE here who shares their thoughts and lives. Its kind of like getting together with a bunch of girlfriends and sharing. We may not always have anything to say but we read the things you have wrote and we feel your pain through our own heartaches. We ponder what we have read and glean what we can for our own lives.
thanks
take care
Kim:
I am a 64 year old mother of a very serious narcissistic 42 year old son. He has also been diagnosed bi-polar but refuses to accept that diagnosis or take the Lithium prescribed for his illness. I found your sight while googling, in an effort to seek support for myself. Most of your information is on a marital relationship between the narcissist and spouse. Are there any sites for parents of adult children who have this problem? I relate to the spouse vs spouse, my relationship with my son is exactly how you describe it. I could choose to walk away from my son but I have three grandchildren who are suffering daily from his problems.
He constantly makes me feel like I am the crazy one and it’s not easy to convince myself that I am not. His dis-respect and his control issues have been worse as my husband and I get older. He uses his 6 year old daughter as his weapon against us and it is so hard trying to figure out how to help ourselves, muchless him.
He is an absolute mad man, got any suggestions?
Linda, Houston
Hi Joyanne,
Something else that may help you is to listen to Kim and Steve’s radio program called “Ultimatums” and it is found on the Lovesafetynet.com website as a free download. I wrote to Laura on this page recently showing how to find this and other extremely good radio shows on Kim & Steve’s Lovesafetynet website. After listening to that show I really find it easier to remain focussed and to address my husband’s aggressiveness from a different level.
You obviously are dealing with a very difficult double-whammy by the sound of it with your husband having a combination of Bi-polar and NPD. He must feel very out of control and inadequate at times, especially when in company – being aggressive makes him feel “in control” which obviously he is not.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD
Hi,
I’m having a really hard time getting over this latest indiscretion and trying to coexist with this man who repulses me at the moment. I have discovered in therapy that I value “family” right now over the value to have a “partner” and that is why I am still hammering away at this. Most of the time lately though it feels like I’m living as a single mother anyway, exept I get tortured by his crazy behavior and can’t run away. I guess it feels worse. If I am going through this anyway on my own AND EVEN WORSE he’s around to “aggrivate” the situation it’s worse than being alone, I feel.
I do need his financial support right now so that really sucks. I keep thinking back to all those times my mom tried to encourage me to gain my independence and I cowered and continued to rely on him for everything… what a mistake in retrospect. Oh well.
I can’t seem to let go of the fact that he got his hands on my credit card and bought into another business opportunity. I have taken many steps to rectify the situation, but the fact remains that now he is moving forward in a different direction so full of his narcissistic supply that I am horrified. I can’t change the fact that he did what he did, but I can’t let go. I can’t look at him, I certainly can’t touch him, and I have no respect for him at the moment. I am disgusted by him in all accounts. This has been going on for almost a month now and I’m stuck. I don’t want him to live here anymore and I don’t want to see him.
I’m so angry and I don’t know what to do to get centered again. I can’t find my patience. Every time he goes out “to a meeting” to “work on a deal” to do all of the things I let him know I was NOT supportive of at this time I lose it. I want to let go and coexist with him without the disgust because it’s eating me alive. I go to the gym and feel better for taking care of me, I go out for dinner with friends, I work on out finances, but as soon as I see him I feel repulsed. I don’t know what to do… Any advise?
You know what Laura,
I feel like you do right now I think… the entitlement is so ridiculous. I keep meaning to go back and read that book that really helped me over the summer but I have been so busy trying to manage the downfall lately. Even when I take time for me I can’t escape him. Every step forward I take he throws me back at least three. I’m drowning in this disease at the moment. I know why I stay, obviously he’s still worth something to me. I’m beginning to get really scared that the damage our relationship is doing to our 2 young girls is far worse that a divorce would be…
Hi, I’m a codependent husband and I’ve also seen the tendencies for that narcissistic thing in me too. I had a real hard time to come clean to my wife these addictions I had, but God said the only way I could get free was to tell her the truth. I told her and it freed me and I haven’t had those particular problems, but I see the fear of comeing clean as an almost imposible thing. This fear is how it can take over someone who is codependent because they are afraid of losing the ones they care about. I really don’t understand how people can just not care about the feelings of the people in their life. I have seen it, I just don’t get it. I thought my wife would be close enough to the truth to come down off of her high horse, but she didn’t even like the fact that I was studying this stuff and she didn’t care who wrote it. She just thinks that sycology (how ever it’s spelled) is a load of crap. She does admitt that she is mean to our kids and I, but says if we don’t like it she could just leave since she’s the problem (of course she somehow turns it around to be a sarcastic statement and makes the kids and I to have the problem). It’s obviosly our incompadence that makes her superier to us. She says of course I’m not perfect, I’m just better at everything than you. She is a wonderful woman in public as long as I let her lead, but she says I’m not smart enough to run things as good as her. (I know that’s not true, but what’s actually happening is she wants it done her way and don’t care what is right or wrong). Any way I know there is hope and was encouraged to hear other people go through the same stuff. (not that I’m glad anybody else has to experiance this, but that I’m not alone).
Thanks and don’t ever give up!!!
As I read your post, James, everything in me is screaming 2 things: Get counseling and Get out (or at least remove the children from that situation).
The damage that occurs to our children as a result of living with people who are mean to them, is almost beyond repair in the later years.
I think maybe it’s time to ask yourself what the pay-off is for staying with this woman. It’s one thing if the spouse abuses his “equal” (the other ADULT), but when the abuse starts touching the children, it’s time for a huge change, ultimatum, help, something!
Kim and Steve, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything about how Steve’s narcissism affected your children if you have children. Please share if so.
Hi Shannon,
I apologise for taking so long to reply. The best answer I can give to your first question of “what happened when I decided not to leave” is best answered in our radio show here,
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/lovesafetynet/program7.php
There is a transcript to read or a radio show to stream.
The issue of dating sites is a real problem. If you and he have a strong attachment, he does not need this service. I know that there is a big temptation for guys (and girls) to test the water to see if they can still attract the opposite sex. However, if you and he are to survive this profile has to be removed and his attention and efforts need to be re-focused back into home. I am not sure exactly how to initiate this. When Kim found me talking with other women on-line, (social networking, not a dating site, but not really much difference) she sent a very polite and revealing letter to the particular woman I was talking to. It was rather embarrassing for me, and I learned my lesson. Very sobering. I am a lucky guy, Kim continued to show her affections to me and that made a difference.
Steve
HI Laura,
Answering- “Kim and Steve, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything about how Steve’s narcissism affected your children if you have children. Please share if so.”
Yes, I could talk about this for days. My poorest narcissistic behaviour marginalised my family in nearly every way, financially, socially, emotionally, you name it. The simple answer is that narcissism is very much a ‘moving against’ style. This concept is from a book called “The Friendship Factor” by Alan Loy McGinnis. This behaviour describes how one person will pull away from the team (ie the family), and that is how I would behave. It was a bad example for my kids and our oldest son is very much caught in the same kind patterns now. We are competing with a huge amount of supply he is getting from high school and he is beginning to pull away from us in more ways than one. Our 11yo daughter is showing similar signs, yet she is more attached to us.
The kids are part of the team and in many ways they mimic the worst in us, which is infuriating, yet it is a good lesson for us.
Steve
Hi James,
I so admire your strength, courage and wisdom. I also wonder how long you have been studying this program – you are obviously a thinker, and now a doer – maybe male co-dependents “get it” quicker because men tend to think with logic rather than with their emotions – this is a well recognised thing in psychology (your spelling makes more sense – what’s with the “p” in front of this word anyway?).
Without exception, our experience in life is limited, and we may experience difficulties, so as human beings we reach out to others for help (if we are not too proud or too stubborn to take help that is). We search and search for answers according to the outcome we want – you obviously love your wife and in making the changes in yourself to improve your self-respect and self-worth you will one day COMMAND respect from your wife (which is different from “demanding” respect).
You are right that we fear to tell our partner the truth for fear of losing them, and I also think because they may become self-righteous, enraged, and bullying. You are also very, very right – the truth will set you free. You have admitted to your addictions and done something about it – and that takes great personal courage and strength, and faith in a power higher than yourself, which in your case is God.
You may find more shortcomings in yourself that you may want to change or improve upon for YOURSELF – but this does not mean that your shortcomings are the cause of your wife’s bad or inappropriate behaviour. Your wife, if narcissistic, operates from the level of unhealthy ego and may use, or have used, your shortcomings as a “get-out” clause from having to face her own shortcomings.
As you face your shortcomings and grow in a healthy way, the dynamic in your marriage will change, your wife will become more exposed to her own shortcomings, and she may ultimately find herself having to own and face up to her own shortcomings.
Kim and Steve said in one of their old radio shows, their children saw Kim operating from a position of strength (built from facing the truth) and their children learned good values from that, and they leaned mostly on Kim – the parent with honest and trustworthy strength – until after Steve faced his narcissism, developed into a person of honesty and trustworth strength, and they eventually built a strong and healthy marriage and family unit.
The point is that you are working on improving your self-worth and self-esteem with positive and honest self-growth, and there will come a time when you will believe in yourself enough that you will deflect ALL negative criticism, insults and put-downs from those who are emotionally immature and perhaps spiritually bankrupt. But you will also remain compassionate and have empathy towards those that use such behaviour to mask their own personal struggles.
It is interesting that your wife admits to being mean to you and your kids – she is admitting to a shortcoming. But she goes on to say if you don’t like it she will leave you and the kids. That is her “get-out” clause from having to face her own shortcomings. I couldn’t count how many times my husband has used this sort of emotional blackmail over me in years gone by – but he has never left, not for more than a couple of days or so anyway, but always leaving full of drama and making a dramatic return saying he cannot sleep, using all sorts of emotional appeal/blackmail to get back in the door! I have looked harder at this emotional blackmail of threatening to leave, and decided that this was used because it worked ON me and worked FOR him!
Analysing that emotional blackmail further, what the narcissist is really saying is “I have this problem, and I feel powerless, and I don’t know what to do about it, because I might have to take my mask off and get out of my comfort zone and change my beliefs and attitudes, and I am scared of change, because I am always right and I am better than everyone else, and I am a fun person to be with and I don’t know how I will survive in a world that I don’t trust and may trust even less if I change.”
I therefore do not respond to the emotional blackmail of abandonment anymore. To do this I had to make changes in myself, and one of those changes was to face my fear of abandonment and rejection once I revealed that fear in myself (it is interesting though that the narcissist in my husband saw and manipulated that fear in me before I saw it in myself). In not responding to that emotional blackmail, I have taken away that narcissistic tool of manipulation, and left my husband wondering when he threatens abandonment “What do I do now? I don’t want to leave, she is not biting, but I have made this statement that I do not want to follow through on…”.
After a while of me not biting, he stopped threatening me with this for a long time, until last Christmas and I got caught up in it again. However, he did have real and not-so-real issues about the marriage, and he was perhaps very serious about leaving, but when it came to the crunch – he didn’t leave. He didn’t believe in all “that psychology crap” as he calls it too, but he did agree to marriage guidance counselling (after 34 years of marriage) and we did benefit from that strong male marriage guidance counsellor’s sessions.
He may leave one day – but I will be OK if he does because I can emotionally stand on my own two feet now.
I hope you stay in touch, James, it is good to hear from a guy in this situation that clearly displays not only intellect and emotional intelligence but compassion towards his wife and others – and take heart – things may get worse for a while, but they will get better as you truly work this program.
Take care,
CD.
Thank you Steve for talking more about the affect of narcissism on the children in your family.
In my case, I started marriage with a daughter who receive most of the physical abuse before the age of 4, until I finally put my foot down and refused to allow my husband to do it anymore to her. Unfortunately, there was a huge gap in bonding between my eldest daughter and him (she was not biologically his either)
Next, my 2nd daughter was vicious from the start. When I would scold her as a young toddler, she would turn and start hitting her older sister. I believe this was a form of “displaced aggression” and even later, projection on her part. She was one who would refuse to help me and then when her father came home, sweetly say “why didn’t you tell me you needed help. I would have helped you.” Unfortunately again, these types of young narcissists-in-the-making learn quickly how to pit parent against parent. In our case, I was the weaker one for too long, controlled by both my husband and her in many ways till she moved out with my granddaughter.
My 3rd daughter is reclusive, home-schooled, somewhat socially phobic, but we have a good relationship providing she isn’t with her older sister for too long. She is my “right-hand-man” in a lot of ways and is currently struggling to learn anything she can from highschool with a mental block.
My youngest is the outgoing one of the family. She is bubbly, funny, a singer, friend to several. She is the little “light” in the darkness here, and I have to be careful of her feelings because she takes things very personally. She begged me to stay with her father because she loves us both and doesn’t want us to fight anymore, so…..what can I say…I stayed, yes, FOR HER! I couldn’t bare to break her heart while she was too young to put her world back together if it fell apart.
I’m a child of divorce and I had an awful time trying to convince myself that I wasn’t the cause of it all. I didn’t want that for her.
~Laura
I spent some time last night responding on here, but I stoped for a while because my wife was attacking me and my coputer shut down while I was away. The whole message was gone. Well it was theraputic to type it down anyway.
to clearify my first message, the type of abuse I’m dealing with here is verbal and expressive mostly. She has started to beat me up once, but because I don’t hit females, she got made that I wouldn’t hit her back. She really hasn’t done it since then. I reallized today that the source of her problem was her step dad (he’s way worse than her). I did know years ago that she was abused this way when she was growing up, I just never connected the two. My oldest son (13) has the same problem. He is always bossing every one around (including me, but not my wife)I’ve had to punish him for bullying our other kids (hurting them because they won’t do as he tells them). I always thought he was just disrespectful and strong willed, but last night when I was trying to explain to my wife that her yelling was abusive, he walked in on us hearing what I was saying. He then laughs at me, telling me that I must be pretty stupid to think such things. He has never accepted me as his dad even though I’ve been his only dad for 9 years of his life.
Hi James,
Have you had a chance to listen to this week’s Globaltalkradio show from Kim and Steve with guest Maria Rodowski yet? The show is called “The Roots of the Dance”. It is excellent for shedding more light on narcissism and particularly narcissism in teenagers within the family unit.
Cheers
CD
Could I have some advise re my situation. I asked my narcissist husband to leave and I feel I have made the situation worse but I just could not cope with the abusive behaviour all my friends think I’ve done the right thing but I’m not so sure. What can I do to get stronger and win him back ?
No I haven’t had any time to listen to much of anything, because I’ve been to busy with the other problems I’ve been having. The economy claimed my job in Sept. and that’s claiming our house. We’re getting evicted right now so I’ve been having to pack, but I’ve been crying mostly. I do have good news though! My wife said she had enough of me trying to keep her accountable. (not letting her yell at the kids. I’ve been interupting her when she starts yelling and telling her that “I’m suppost to handle this stuff and it’s getting you to frustrated anyway so why don’t you go calm down and let me take care of it.”) Well she blew up at me a few hours after my last entry. I had went to the park accross the street from our house for a walk around the track. (walking really soothes me) I already had the kids to sleep and washed the dishes and swept the house. She was watching T.V. the whole time and seemed happy. (laughing at whatever she was watching.) Well; as I was walking back towards the house I noticed her standing in the driveway. I was taken by suprise when she started yelling at me from accross the street about how I’d rather be at the park than to be at home with her. Then she turned around and said she had enough of my stupidity and she was going to leave me. She said no one ever told her what to do and I wouldn’t be the first. She was saying since she couldn’t handle the kids she would leave the younger ones with me and send the older ones to their birth dad. (who by the way we havn’t seen since Jan. of 2001 or heard from him at all except once in 2006 wanting the social security #’s from the girls so he could claim them on his taxes. He never once sent her anything and wouldn’t even let us find him.) So I told her “fine; if that’s what you think will fix your problems, but I bet you’ll just find out that it will only follow you around where ever you go. I’m not sure how we got from their to the next, but the next thing I know she’s crying and going on about how sorry she was for being so mean to me and asking why didn’t I just leave her so many years ago. I told her that I love her and always have. these problems she is having isn’t her I can see it come and go. And besides; who else is going to help her through it. well; some how we got through it and went over all the great things about our relationship. We both healed so much (sometime around 3-4 this morning). She said she didn’t want to admit I was right because she couldn’t accept what I had been telling her, but as she was contimplating leaving she had this flash back of how cold the look was in her first husband looked her in the eyes and said the same thing she had just told me. well; the more she thought about it the more she started to see that she was treating me like her first husband had treated her in so many ways. Any way I’ve got to send the kids to school, I’ll write more later.
Hi Kim, I recently found your website after many years of searching. I am so grateful. I have been married for 18 yrs and unfortunatly my wife suffers from I beleive is NPD. I had no idea of NPD until recently. A pyscologist suggest something to me that inspired me to research, it was this research the I found out what narissism was. It was both a blessing to discover it and devestating read what the future can hold for both of us.
Up until a few years ago I was a strong person, successful, happy and had self confidence. I am now an absolute mess. I spend most of my lifetime self employed with my own business. I sold it a few years ago thinking our family had a very secure future and I could spend more time focusing on our family.
I made a dreadful mistake and invested most of our money into a family travel business with my wife as my partner. As you can likely predict the business was a absolute failure. After three years I have lost all my self confidence, self esteem and most of proceeds from the sale of my business. From my wife perspective the only impact of the business failure is a change in her narissism… for the worst, and I am now caught what seems is a hurricaine of issues and just do not know where to start. I feel completely defeated. I find it hard to even function with day to day tasks. Everyday I am confronted with a situation. I know I am now parinoid, I cannot distingish any truths and see my whole life collasping. I am losing my kids, friends and family. There is no empathy. AS I fall deeper in dispair, and I know it is evident from comments from friend and family, my wife is more critical of me than ever. I have finally realized she actually enjoys expoiting me and seeing me fall. Yet at the same time she turns on the charm.
I would love nothing more than spending the whole day laying out my story, knowing I have found this wonderful resource, But I would like to speak to two current issues that are most important to me, in hopes I can get advice. If I can move forward on these two, I think I will see some light.
1) We managed to sell what was left of our travel business 1 yr ago. At that time, we both had the opportunity to work for the lady that bought our business. I decided it was best not to work selling travel for the time being, thinking my wife needed the break from me and it was best for her. At that time the door was left open for me to return.
Once my wife starting working in this new office, she found her new Narssistic fix. She has since had one affair that I know of, her narissim has escalated x 10. Although I have a job now, it is not want I want to do forever. I want to go back and sell travel again for myself. I do not want to work where she works, just sell travel somewhere else. She is forbitting me from doing so, theatening to leave me and take kids if I do. I think she considers me a threat in someway as I was quite sussessful.
2) She is alienating me from my kids. They are 14 and 16. I had always believed she was a great mother. She was a stay at home mom and always found time to spend with the kids. I was a typical working person, spending what time I could when not working. Now I am home more with a regular job, I have more time with the kids. I have never been able to connect with them, after trying everything. After reading about Narissism I understand why. I now see what my wife is doing, she undermines me every chance she can get. A few examples. She says to the girls, ” You look like you are not happy these days (even when they are), you need mommy daughter time, dad cannot help”. She claims ownership to everything we have accomlished over the years in front of the kids, mainly when I am not around. Se tells them outright lies and exgagerates her importantance on every turn. Before it was behind my back, now she tells the lies in front of me, (she knows I am weak and will not respond). My kids do not speak to me anymore, all communication is addressed to my wife. How do I win my kids back? Do I address the lies with my wife or my kids?
I have just started reading your ebooks. They are an absulte blessing. Although I am, just starting I want you to know how grateful I am.
Patrick
Hi Marcia,
You need to focus all your energy on taking care of you first. If you haven’t already, check out Kim’s ebook, “Back from the looking glass” Also there are many resources on their site that can help you get a handle on you, like the radio shows & downloads….
You’ve probably spent so much time living in this “haze” because of the narcissism that you might have lost yourself along the way. You’re best bet is to redefine who YOU are, what your boundaries are, how you can learn to make yourself happy and learn about how narcissism has affected you personally. Then you will have tools to make better decisions about what it is that you really want in the situation with your narcissist.
Good luck!
Allison
Joyanne,
I haven’t read about or heard of any information regarding the “transformation” of a narcissist aside from Steve either. I think it’s quite a long process from start to mantainance. I’m not sure if Kim & Steve have said how long the process actually took from the time Kim made the decision to address the narcissim to the time Steve was able to manage his behavior appropriately…
I wonder, does anyone on this blog have a similar situation to Kim and Steve here? Or are we all in “working” mode to work the program and go through the process hopefull for change???
There are so many things about my husband that worry me, things that will never change. I fear that there is no real escape from the narcissism because how my husband wants to live and what he wants to do for work are centered around the narcissism. I can’t take it out of the equasion because it’s his work AND he gets all of his supply from his “career”. I often get very discouraged because of that. I can’t compete with it because he won’t change, and the more “successful” he is in business, the greater his ego gets and the less realistic he is at home. The bigger his ego is, the less engaged and interested he is in our family because he is doing such big and important things that there is no time to think about or respect the things that are little (to him). It’s a circle that I can’t stop running around in.
Any suggestions?
Allison
Hi Allison,
In our global talk radio show number 20 last week, we spoke about the concept of ’scaffolding’. I say this because I am not sure if I have ‘transformed’ into the perfect man just yet. My initial reaction to many situations is often to become abusive and aggressive. I often self-censor sarcastic comments that pop into my mind, and sometimes I cannot censor them quickly enough. My secondary responses and ’scripts’ now are much more appropriate than they once were.
The truth is that I am very narcissistic in many ways, as we all can be at times. The difference, or the transformation, now, is that I have a solid attachment with Kim and I trust her. She also trusts me. We have goals that we have set together, and I am lucky because Kim is a determined person and she usually gets what she wants. It is very cool having a tough woman around.
The difference between me and your man may be this; I am not cut out for the workplace in many ways. My narcissism has got the better of me in my previous jobs to the point where I have become embarrassed and unable to continue. My career now is very humble, yet full of challenges. I am in many ways my own boss but also in many ways a slave to the grind. I won’t find fulfillment in the corporate world because I’m not cut out for it. So, there is a difference between your husband and I here perhaps.
I know this is the most difficult of all of the balancing acts. How to bring a balance to the work-life equation, especially when there is career success occurring and also more success to be had. There will be resources out there on this topic, I don’t have any specific titles for you I am sorry.
My humble bit of advice to you is to set some goals for yourself. Do not take a back seat to his career, because you may never get the chance to drive. Imagine yourself hitting those goals, and see what changes may need to happen in order for you to achieve your own success. Make them realistic goals, but make them challenging too.
This circle you are caught in will not control you forever.
Steve.
Just want to offer a really good book to all of you who are wanting to survive your N’s in a healthy, spiritual way.
It’s called FOOLPROOFING YOUR LIFE by Jan Silvious
i’m going to be teaching from it on a forum known as Paltalk. It will be in audio/text.
Hi James,
Wow! You really do “get it”! It goes to show that all your wife’s puff and smoke was just really a smoke screen for her insecurities,inadequacies and inability to trust attachment! You are displaying great competence, one of the very things your wife accused you of not having, and it is that very competence that is going to help her, you and your family through this right now.
You have shown how much you really love her – she has tested your love until she knew that while you still loved her you were prepared to let her go if that is what she wanted, but you also let her know that if she went she would just take her problems with her, and that if she stayed you were there to be a strong guiding hand through this. You did all this with so much other strain going on in your life – such as losing your job due to the financial crisis, and now losing your home! I really feel for you at this time, but I also am marvelling yet again at the strength of the human spirit. You obviously have a great inner strength to cope with so many adversities at the same time, strengthened no doubt by your spiritual faith.
There will be setbacks, but try to remain focussed and lovingly firm as much as you can under the circumstances – it is the greatest and best example you can set not only to your wife, but to your children as well. You may be losing or have lost so much now by way of your job and your home, and you will grieve over those losses, but to your credit you are focussed on keeping your family together during this time which is more important than any material attachment can ever be. You no doubt will have another job in the future, but right now you are doing the most important job in the world, looking after and keeping your family together.
Good luck and stay in touch.
CD
Thank you so much for your response, Steve! I really appreciate you sharing your first hand experience. I especially needed to hear the part about not taking the backseat to his career… because that is exactly what I have done since I chose to be a stay at home mom for the past 6 years. I have spent years telling myself that once he “finds what he’s looking for” he’ll have time to re-prioritize his life. Since I started your program over the summer I’ve become aware that he might never “find what he’s looking for”, and that the “chase” is much more appealing to him than the end result. Hence, the advise to take charge and set my own goals and refuse to take the backseat – is simply PERFECTION, on your part. Great call. That really spoke to me, just the way it needed to!!!!
Thank you again, for sharing
I really appreciate you and Kim and all your work!
Allison
Hi Patrick,
How wonderful it is to see some guys entering this forum from the perspective of co-dependency.
My heart goes out to you Patrick – I have experienced a total feeling of hopelessness and worthlessness after having been subjected to years of oppression, and consequent depression, and it is not a nice place to be – but there is HOPE.
I too lost myself. I was a very capable and talented person, then lost myself – blinded by my husband’s “aura” of false ego, and seeming popularity, and by internalising my husband’s bullying or projected self-hate in the form of criticism, insults, put-downs and verbal abuse towards me. I didn’t know what all that “psychology stuff” was though at the time it was happening.
All I could see was that my husband was unhappy, not just with me, but with everything and everyone, and I thought by turning all of my attention to making him happy by making everything “right” for him, it would eventually make everything OK and we would then find happiness.
It was a downward spiral that led me to a “rock-bottom” where I was mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually exhausted – I became and felt powerless over my situation. This same rock-bottom then led me to a self-growth program (which helped me tremendously), and then many years later to Kim and Steve’s program which I found in about February of this year.
When I was at that rock-bottom many years ago – and through the self-growth program I was in – I had to realise that although everything seemed overwhelming and hopeless – that there was hope for me to recover from complete and utter despair.
When I reflect on those dark times I think how cruel it was that the less I valued myself – the more my husband abused me! I don’t know if he was being deliberately callous, or just didn’t realise what he was doing, or perhaps was simply so narcissistically out of touch with reality that he didn’t even acknowledge that I was a human being, or some other reason, or maybe all of the above.
All I know now is that it was a long and bumpy road back to valuing myself again, establishing healthy boundaries, and achieving goals that had become long lost dreams for many years. But it was worth travelling that road and putting in all the hard work that it took to bring me back to personal empowerment and success.
Make yourself your priority – that is something we can and all must do. Just take one day at a time for the moment, or even one minute at a time if necessary when things get really bad.
Assess and take care of your very basic needs initially – quality sleep, nutrition, relaxation, meditation, personal presentation, Omega 3’s and so on. Also be proud of your job, however humble it may be – it is not your identity – but it provides you with life’s essentials. You will know what the right thing to do will be as far as your business aspirations or career goes once you have become your own priority again, and got in touch with who you are and what you want for yourself and your future.
Self-soothe especially when faced with adversity, negativity or aggression – know that you will find solutions to your difficulties when you are calm, cool and collected. Getting caught up emotionally in the bullying games really hurts – but it also distracts us from focusing on what needs to be done.
I resolved that I had heard it all before, the topic may have changed but it was all about just “the same old, same old junk” – all the bullying, criticisms, insults, put-downs, etc that I had allowed to hurt me and had internalized before. I had to decide to choose not to even acknowledge “the junk” because I could see a bigger picture now. I had to consciously leave the “junk” where it belonged – with the bully (my husband) and that eventually diffused one of his narcissistic manipulative tools, and eventually commanded his respect somewhat.
In the coming days, read and learn as much as you can about Kim and Steve’s program, listen to their free audios, download them, record them to CD, play them in your car on the way to work and so on, they are extremely valuable to point you in the right direction. As each day passes you will become more and more aware of what is actually happening that is creating dysfunction or discord in your relationship and your family, and you will also start finding solutions to the various difficulties you are having in your life, and with your wife and your daughters.
It is not weak not to respond to taunting or abuse, especially if you feel too numb or too taken aback to respond. Throughout Kim’s audios you will find some great responses like:
“Your not better than me”
“I don’t like where this conversation is heading right now, we have been down that road before and it is distressing me and I have to… go to sleep/work/take a shower/etc right now”…or whatever it is you intended to do before the negativity started. Then without hesitation go ahead and do IT …walk away from the negativity and get on with your life.
If your daughters witness this you will be setting a good example to them on how to handle negativity, and they will also see the junk being left where it belongs – with their mother – you will also have a better chance of earning or restoring their respect and perhaps empathy towards you.
There is a lot to be done, but I have great faith in the truth and the strength of the human spirit.
“A journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step.”
Good luck and stay in touch.
CD
Hi all,
I haven’t contributed much on the board lately as I’ve been trying to really knuckle down and give my energy to Kim & Steve’s workbook and the challenges laid out before me.
As a result, I don’t expect many of you to be able to offer much advice or support. But perhaps my sharing and questions will help others. I know I feel better just reading what you all write.
CD – You’ve be a great boon to many people on here. You sound like you’ve worked so hard and come so far and have so much good, practical advice to offer people here. Bless you for that!
Kim & Steve – nice to see you are still doing so much for everyone. I am loving the Global Talk radio archives. They are really getting very good, very in depth about more complex problems and illuminating all those places we all have questions about here on the board. I re-listen to the older ones and constantly find things I missed, or things I got ‘in theory’ but not in practice. I’m gearing up to buy the co-dependence book, but I want a good grasp of the first level and a good clear window of calm time to look at the material with fresh eyes.
James & Patrick – you sound so sincere. I wish you all the best in what you are doing. Cling to Back from the Looking Glass, letters from Kim & Steve on this blog and their other sites, and the global talk radio shows. There is an incredible amount of resource here. I know that I comb through it and cling to the advice like a lifeline when things are confusing and rough. To have their single, united voice, speaking logic and reality and truth and courageous ‘growing up’ is immeasurable. These lessons are about learning what real love is – for yourself and for your family. My only regret is not having found them sooner.
My N partner suffered a nervous breakdown recently. It came out of years of us fighting now, doing all the wrong things. I’d started really practicing Kim and Steve’s advice (not just bits of it)and things became calm and safe. He became closer and then it seemed like the walls started tumbling down. He has always suffered from (what I consider) high anxiety (nervous ticks, blinking etc). when things finally calmed and I was withdrawing my energy from the fighting and into the attachment, trust, goal setting and achieving for myself (4 legged stool) etc and my children – he broke. His anxiety turned into full blow panic attacks. He’s so used to living off of adrenaline dumps. It got so bad, he was afraid to leave the house. He was having panic attacks in front of my eyes while he was suppossed to be leading meetings at work (he’s a director here!). I’m sure you can imagine how frightened and terrified he was. He couldn’t go into a shop for milk or have a repair man around to the house. He was having about 10 panic cycles a day. He had to take nearly 2 weeks off of work.
During this time, I worked hard to help him. I set little challenges and he acted and did very loving things of his own volition (like coming to my house when I was at work and cleaning my daughter’s room from top to bottom – they’re young so it was a crazy mess). He became very affectionate with me again and with my girls.
Long story short, over a couple of months, we’ve been getting very close. Because we’re in two houses, I was finding that we were spending lots of time at his because it’s bigger/better/etc there. But my own home was neglected and it was causing me and the children stress (I think that’s why he came and cleaned that week). I also began to get a bit scared about what growth would look like for us. I’d enjoyed all of this quality time and getting so close again. My children were thriving in it too. I started to dream about being a family again (getting married and being together like we did before).
As he began to recover and go back out into the world, I began to feel abandoned. I was proud he got back to work and did ok. I was proud that he started tackling going to the shop. He also started going back out with his mates once or twice a week. That was great, in theory, but I would go back to my home and sit there and feel lonely and sad that we weren’t together. I know – I filled my time and didn’t fall down into depression or anger about it like before, but his planning of this was abrupt and left me no time to fill my own diary with plans/friends/activities. Also, most honestly, it just left me thinking “ok, when do ‘we’ become priority. He’s ok to now start going and tackling these issues, and spending time with friends (whom I don’t respect for the way that they pressure him and don’t actually really care that much). When does making us into a family unit so that we are stronger come onto the agenda?”
I began to express that it was very difficult to give to him and have my heart be so open, but feel like I wasn’t getting the same comittment. These discussions would start as calm, reasonable exchanges but would get heated and angry. I worked like a devil to enact all the principles i’ve learned. He is a verbal bully and lashes out very badly when angry. Even I can see how wildly mean he is and see through it. Some stray flack still gets through to my heart though. Also, I get pushed into a place where I find it hard to control myself. I grew up with physical intimidation and abuse. When he’s mad, he tends to get right in my face or my ear and be vile. Sometimes he’ll grab my arms too – but when I react (shouting, pushing him away), he says “It’s just to calm you down”. He’s gotten alot better with this as I enact Kim’s advice. But still, I can find myself in places that touch on my past and can only stay in that place so long before I start to lose my cool. What’s also adding to the stress, he’s my boss at work, so any decision we take about the relationship will impact on this and on my ability to earn a living for my children. This means my home is in danger etc. The economic environment is not great here and the ‘normal’ opportunities for mobility just do not exist.
He is now saying: “I want to you to live with me and see if we’re compatible. I want to take it one step at a time because I want to make sure it’s right. The thought of getting engaged right now makes me feel panic and sick and I can’t do it.”
This appeals to Kim & Steve’s advice around setting smaller challenges, around needing to break large tasks into smaller, achievable goals. But how can you break being together into small goals?
I say back to him: “I can’t just come and live with you. First, it puts me and the children in a difficult situation wherein we are forfeiting our security for a ‘trial’. We need to know we are going to go forward as a team, together, and approach our decisions and life design in that way. Second, it completely puts me into a financial position where I’m dependent as I’d have to rent out my home, etc Third, how can I possibly do all of that *knowing* that you’re not sure if I’m the person you want to be with forever.”
I am confident now that I can see much positive reaction to my changes of behaviour. We benefited enormously from Kim & Steve’s advice. I am now hitting a brick wall on this subject though. If he were just my husband, in the house, acting weird, I’d know how to handle it. This step though feels like I’m out in the wilds without a compass.
Any thoughts?
Tracy
Am I just making things too complex?
I am sure I’m missing something very simple. I want to move forward with him. I do not want to continue living between two homes, or ‘dating’ him. I feel that I have a right to feel safe and comfortable. I feel that I have a right to have my desires taken into account. I feel that marriage would symbolise BOTH of our commitments to working together on ourselves to make a brighter future.
Thanks for listening.
Hi Tracy,
I just happened to catch your posts – I am not often moderating posts here much these days!
I have just been so busy with the radio shows, new products and improvements to the sites.
You are doing great but I know that the position you are now in is tough.
One thing I would say is that maybe he needs a challenge that is close to his heart – something that is just for him and helps build trust. The other is that I think you might benefit from joining Christian Carter’s mailing list. His products are expensive but honestly you will get so much good advice from his newsletters you may not need to buy anything. His advice about dating and learning how to get commitment from a man is very good.
It is very common for narcissists to have nervous breakdowns as you describe when they are recovering and the really important thing is that they do not rebuild the false ego again for lack of knowing what else to do. Sometimes just small reminders can be very powerful, such as “I am not interested in how successful you are or what car you drive, what I really value in a man is that he can live easily with himself and how good a father and husband he is.”
I am sure there will be others here who can also help!
Good to hear from you!
Kim
PS. THe other thing is that when you want to talk about the future you don’t bring it up like it is a problem or a big issue to discuss. It is much better if you can build on the rapport you have found. So you say “I am really enjoying your company so much these days … (and wait to see his response is positive) I like it that you are ….. (again see that this gets a good response) and then you might suggest what you would be impressed or pleased to see happen next (the next challenge) and in this way you can lead him to a more positive place rather than letting your own frustration bring up resistance and bad feelings in him (-:
Thank-you for the response. I wish there were a few more guys in the forum as well. I fell abit of alone here wondering if I am “a just a coward and a wimp”. (I know it is not true but the feeling still exists). I cannot believe how much three weeks of learning about narissism has taught me.
After reading many posts, I find it a bit hard to relate in some areas. My wife in many ways displays charm and genuine caring towards the family, friends and me for that matter. I coming to the realization that the caring is all about her stroking her own ego.
I have been reading alot about NPD. Has anyone seen cases where one type of NPD changes into another type? I have read but “Parental Destructive Narissism” by Nina Brown. She talks about a “Parentified Child”. When I read about it , it fits my wife to a T. Ms. Brown talks about two responses to being parentified child, one is a compliant response, the other is seige response. My wife Cindy unfortunately was raised in a home with a father that was an extreme narissist. Three weeks ago I did not know what narissism was, I knew words like self-centred & conceded. Her father has it all 24/7. in regards to her mother I simpley judged her over the years as a very pathetic, shallow person that cannot carry a conversation beyond what she is cooking for dinner or the flowerbeds she escapes to. She cannot even keep relationships with her two sons and my wife. She does try, but just does not have the skills. My wifes family is totally disfunctional. Her sad pathetic mother after 30 some years living My wife father is a result of this actions. I never understood it…. Now I get it, I feel so sorry for her.
Back to my wife, I think she was a complaint narissist for many years, because I was a supportive and protective. “She openly admits I saved her from her disfunctional family when we met and married”. I suppose when I look at it, she was co-dependant on me. Looking back, It was okay with me. I was a strong person, although I felt sorry for her, thinking her self centred actions & consede was just a poor personality trait, it did not affect me and I learned to accept it. Besides she was a good mother in most ways, so it seemed. I accepted her narissism.
In the last year she has found as she calls it “her independence”, she was changed to a defient Narississt. Here is where the problem lyes for me… Every person is intitled to independence. But her actions are exactly what you would expect from a rebelous teenager….
So here is my struggle, I understand I need to work on myself and get me back to a better place.. But what do I do about her day to day actions that are destructive to our marriage kids and family? Her actions are not seen as abusive ( at least to others) , they are suttle and appear innocent, but behind closed doors of our house they very destructive to the family.
PS: Just wring this down, is a real help for me. THANK YOU!
Patrick
Hi Tracy, Thanks for paying attention to my post, It is comforting knowing someone is listening.
I am assuming you from Australia from your description of your husband’s “mates”. I am from Canada. I was fortunate to travel to Australia last year, beautiful Country. We both are blessed to live where we do ( if I am correct).
I am new to this post and feel I am not worthy enough or knowlegdeable to comment, but what struck me from your post was the comment your husband is your boss.
My biggest mistake was entering into a business with my narissitic wife. When each of us worked on our own individual issues within the business it worked okay, but when we crossed paths on issues, which was daily, it was hell. With any interaction we had, for my wife it was always competitive. We tried to identify boundarys for each other, I feel I respected them, but she could not. My success was a constant threat for her. As a result, I could not work at 100%,I was focused on avoiding confontation with my business partner and wife, instead of focusing on the work at hand. It was a very confusing time for me. Juggling keeping my family as number one, and trying to do my job to the best of my ability turned impossible. As result everything came crashing down. I know it was best the business failed, now I trying to move forward.
Have you thought about searching out a new carreer? For me, I truly beleive, if I find a new fresh enviroment I I can kick start my life again, I am still searching for what I want to, but know in my heart I need to find it for my own peace.
I know there are plenty of opportunity’s out there, even if it requires education. The web is becoming a great tool for part time education, via correspondence.
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
I hope you can take comfort in knowing that most of us (if not all of us) here in this blog have felt like “cowards or wimps” at times, however that feeling will subside, and may pass completely, as you learn and grow from Kim and Steve’s program.
You obviously have empathy towards others though (which is a virtue) because after just a few weeks of reading and learning about this program you now understand, for example, why your mother-in-law is so seemingly disconnected and shallow – and you feel for her.
Who knows what she is thinking and suffering inside as she escapes to her garden after having lived more than 30 years with a narcissistic husband. Maybe one day she might learn the truth (perhaps by your example) and awaken to the fact that there is hope – even if it is just for the personal recovery of the long-time and severely oppressed individuals who have lived in these types of destructive relationships.
All I know is that it is good fortune, and perhaps even a miracle, for each one of us here to have found Kim and Steve’s program. We have now found a way to slow down and perhaps halt the downward spiral of being codependent and living with a narcissist by learning all about co-dependency and narcissism. We now also have a chance to turn our relationships around, and to rebuild them into healthy attachments, in an upward spiral of truth, integrity, dignity, grace and trust.
Dr Maria Rodowski, a guest on Kim and Steve’s final Globaltalkradio show for 2009, had some excellent information for us about The Attachment Theory regarding human development, teenagers, secure attachments, insecure attachments and avoidant attachments. It is very worth it for all who write to this blog to listen to this show to see how we, our partner and children relate to each other.
Knowing how you fit in by your form of attachment to your partner or child could help you to “detach” from negativity as it happens hopefully in order to outgrow insecure attachments and avoidant attachments, and to develop trust and healthy secure attachments.
With respect to handling your day-to-day interactions with your wife and children – take an “easy does it” and “how important is it?” attitude. Be as warm and as welcoming you can by making sure you greet each member of your family as Kim tells us to – this must be done – it is not optional.
Avoid REACTING to blame, put-downs, criticism, insults etc, by using your “magic scissors” – perhaps initially on EVERY single negative comment you hear or action you see, and EVERY single negative thought you have in your mind. Easy to say – much harder to do – but worth the self-control to get a real handle on the situation.
If you use your “magic scissors” and detach from the button pushing – you can have an objective (unemotional) look at what is being said or done that is probably meant to offend you, or hurt you, or to keep you down.
Your wife may wonder what on earth is going on with you, and she may escalate her negativity because she may have grown up with a lot of drama in the family home and is only comfortable living with drama – this phenomenon has been called “excited misery” in the self growth program I was in many years ago.
When she is putting you down, being insulting or abusive towards you, listen to what she is saying but try to rise above it (detach) and look at the bigger picture that may exist. Ask yourself questions like:
• Does my wife have a legitimate concern or complaint right now, or is she creating a drama because she cannot relax and is so used to living with drama and anxiety that she doesn’t know how to live without it for very long if at all? Is she making a mountain out of a molehill?
• Is my wife pumping herself up right now or getting a narcissistic supply by doing/saying what she is doing/saying to me right now? Is this part of her narcissistic mask?
• Is my wife smoke-screening by blaming others so that she does not have to take or share any responsibility for this or some other matter?
Contemplate during your self-soothing times, questions like the following (for example – her apparent portrayal of superiority to you regarding the history of the travel business):
• Does my wife see her personal identity and success in life as what she does or achieves in her career?
• If my wife lost her job in the travel agency – would she still be so cocky and self-absorbed, and putting me down? Or would she fall in a heap of perceived lost personal identity, and behave perhaps like a child not knowing where to go or what to do next? Would she throw childish tantrums? Would she blame someone or something else for the loss of her job?
• If she lost her job – would she take it on the chin with emotional maturity, and move on to find another job straight away, with dignity and grace?
• Does my wife portray that she is more powerful, and/or that she is “better” than me, every time she puts me down (especially in regard to the history of the travel business) bearing in mind that her father may have been tyrannical towards her as she was growing up – and she has not only suffered from this, but learned the behaviour too?
The above are only suggestions or examples of questions for you to contemplate what is behind all the abuse and superficiality. Only you can know your true situation, the more you learn, grow, detach, self-soothe and contemplate the better chance you will have at finding solutions to your difficulties.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Tracy,
I think Patrick has a good point – are you able to find a career/business or job that is independent of your man?
Living and working together can pose strains on any relationship, and based on personal experience I would not recommend that anyone go into business with a romantic partner unless they both have a solid “secure-attachment” type relationship with each other.
From experience also, it is one thing to be tied to each other by marriage or living together in a committed relationship, but if you ever wanted to part ways in the future – not only do you lose your marriage/relationship, but you could lose your business (perhaps with associated career) and livelihood all in one hit.
Perhaps this is what you need to consider first before moving in together – what your back up plan would be if things didn’t work out the way you expected or hoped for? You have expressed some concerns already about losing your existing independence and security for a trial?
Good Luck and Stay in Touch.
CD, Australia.
Hi again Tracy,
Sorry Tracy, in my last post I meant “if you ever wanted to part ways in the future – not only do you lose your marriage/relationship, but you could also lose or need to change your job risking losing your livelihood all in one hit.”
Take care,
CD, Australia.
Hi,
I don’t know if my husband has any diseases or problems but for some reason I keep thinking this might be the one.
We just got done fighting again with me trying to tell him how he makes me feel when he leaves me responsible for everything. This would include making decisions, paying bills, the kids, you name it unless it’s a physical job, mowing lawn, housework, projects and his job, I am responsible and also to blame if it goes wrong. Today was I went to town to long and he had things to do so he just didn’t do anything because I took to long. I left home at 10:30 this morning and got home at 11:45 this morning. My fault he didn’t do what he wanted. Basically if he doesn’t want to do it or doesn’t think he will make the right decision I get to decide or do and get fully blamed if it goes wrong.
I am also responsible fully during the week because he works on the road which gives him excuses to not do anything even if he needs to make a phone call only he can make on his behalf.
My husband’s mother has schizo affective disorder and I see a lot of the lack of emotion or empathy in her that I see in him. There is a strange disconnect like they don’t understand what you are saying when trying to explain something or in my husbands case not be able to understand being in my shoes. The minute I say this is how I feel he says well this is what you do or how you make me feel. I am starting to feel crazy because no matter how I go about it he just doesn’t get it and it’s taking a major toll on me.
In the past he has been caught with porn and caught red handed and denied he did it and made it my fault for him doing it or laughed it off and made fun of me like it was a big joke to him. He did this when I was pregnant and he also blamed me for being pregnant.
It’s never ending. Tonight I just feel like walking away and never coming back it’s just so toxic for me and the kids because I can’t deal with living with someone that seems to only have me around to be used for things but not loved. He says he loves me but the actions never confirm the talk.
He refuses to take blame.
Right now our house is in foreclosure and I found out from him that he told his parents that he should have paid better attention to the finances to make sure this didn’t happen. He threw me under the bus. He didn’t tell the truth. I asked him countless times to help with the money and never got help. He has no clue what anything cost. I told him 3 years ago we couldn’t afford the house we are in and he just never listened. I wanted to move back home so I could have help with the kids from my parents when he was gone but he didn’t want to move because he didn’t want to. So since he has left me to take care of things and it’s all my fault. I only have so much money to go around. Just think If I had never paid anything and he would’ve had to, we would have been in big trouble a long time ago.
Manipulative, deceitful, blamer, unsympathetic, cruel and cold is how I would decribe him. Seems like he is incapable of loving me. Constantly criticizing what I don’t do and how he does it all.
I’m blamed for his loss of friendships or lack of, and blamed for his relationship with his parents and sister. I’m blamed for everything. I have been lied to by all of them especially concerning his mother’s health and our kids being around them when no one disclosed her condition until she flipped out. I don’t trust his parents or sister either.
I can’t get him to go to counseling. I think if I could it would show. He is pretty quiet and always has been but everyone calls it shy. He is passive aggressive. He might not say he is mad but he will come back in a way to make you pay for it later.
His mother’s side of the family, half of them which is about 5 siblings have some sort of mental illness including her mother. Anxiety to major depression, to her schizo affective. I’m pretty sure something is not right with him. I don’t want something to be wrong with him but I just don’t understand how a person can be so unthoughtful or mean and just not get how they are affecting someone else. It’s like he has no heart. I can’t stand feeling so unappreciated and used anymore. I have gained weight and am very depressed. We don’t have sex and when we do it’s all about him.
I hate this for my kids. I love him I just don’t know how I can live with someone that really doesn’t care about me. This sucks!
I have tried time and again to tell his parents and sister that this is what is causing problems between us and I end up being the bad person and crazy one that needs help. The funny thing is I am the only one that actually went and got help. His mother hasn’t even had any sort of counseling sessions since her meltdown last fall. Just a bunch of pills. But to understand her husband, my father-in-law brought her home after a month in the hospital and a suggestion from the doctor to put her in long term care and went back out hunting and left her home alone. So, I couldn’t stand feeling the way I did like I do now again and went to get help. I knew I was doing the best I could and the counselor helped me see that and that I wasn’t losing it.
Just at a lost. Not sure what to do anymore. I am overwhelmed with his behavior and my 5 and 3 year old and the fact that we will be out of a home in 3 months. We have a place to go, one of my parents homes, but he wants me to tell them that this is my fault we lost the house. Really? What is wrong with him?
I have tried to be independent by getting a job because he tells me to work and that he will help if something goes wrong with the kids and then he never ends up helping. We don’t live around family or friends and we have no friends so I have no one to help me. I have been fired for jobs only after a few months because the kids get ill and I have no time off and he wouldn’t help. It all seems so controlling as I read what I type, or is it just me?
Needed to vent and thanks for reading or listening.
Andrea
Hi Andrea,
I am new to all of this as well. I have been married to my husband for 21 years. So much of what you are saying is familiar to me. You are not crazy. But, I know what it is like to feel crazy. Living with a person with NPD is very confusing. I am looking to Kim and Steve’s work for ways I can take control of myself and become more aware and educated about my own emotional well being. I am in the middle of divorce proceedings and I have three beautiful children. I am hoping to have a positive relationship with my soon to be ex-husband through self improvement and self strengthening for my sake as well as my children’s. It is helpful to feel like there is a community of people out there who understand what we face and are working through the challenges of living with NPD as a part of their lives. It is not just you and here in this place you can find encouragement.