Please join our discussion on all aspects of narcissism; ask us questions or offer your own personal, hard-won advice.
This is not a group therapy page to get your angries out however and all comments here will be read before they are approved. I am opening up this page as the first of hopefully more discussion blog pages to create a safe space for our subscribers to offer each other compassion and support.
This also is NOT a place for debate but somewhere to come and receive support without judgement or aggression and comments that do not respect this will not be approved.
If you have an idea for a new page topic please just let us know in your post. I will drop in from time to time and hope I can answer your questions as I am needed but primarily give this space to you to meet others who may be having similar challenges as you.
Welcome if you are new here and please know that you are not alone!
Your friend Kim (-:
Dear Kim
You know what really did it for me, was your poem “Song of the male narcissist”! That really made me realise how helpless he was. It also made me realise that God put us together for me to assist him in managing himself.
I have always thrived on a challenge. And I find this a huge challenge to get our relationship on track.
I still lose control emotionally but it is much better since I’ve read your advice. I tend to be an optimist but sometimes this drags me down real low. Since I read the “song” it just gave me such insight in what and how my husband thinks. I am really grateful to you for helping me the past few months. I have been to see phsyciatrists as well and they want my husband to see them but ofcourse he won’t go.
He just does not realise what he is doing wrong.
You have made me much stronger and I realise that this is the only way I will be able to help our relationship.
Ofcourse what make it so difficult for me is that he does not phycically abuse me, he has never been unfaithful in the 37 years of marriage. Its just the verbal abuse.
He has stopped this with me but still criticises our children – not in their presence but to me. This is the one thing that still infuriates me. They want to love their father but he still keeps them at a distance and ofcourse will find any reason to substantiate his actions.
We are expecting our first two grandchildren within days and my daughter mentioned that she will never leave her child alone with his grandfather – in fear that he might say something negative to the child and thus cause emotional damage like he did when she was a child. This really hurt me badly.
Have you got any advice on father-children relationships?
Grownup children, that is.
Today I realise that I have always protected them against his moods when they were young and still living with us.
This ofcourse caused that I gave in to his moods just to keep the peace – which was very unhealthy.
I must add that I have three wonderful, well mannered, self-supporting children. Eldest, boy and 18 months later I had twins – boy and a girl. The twin boy is gay and is living with his partner ever since they met after school. They’ve been together for 10 years. Two wonderfully well-balanced loving boys.
The fact that they are such wonderful children is because of their father’s strict parenting – for which I am very greatful. They all live near to us in the same suburb and we see each other at least once a week.
Hoping to hear from you.
Regards
Madge
I have left my husband of 20 years and only found this site after leaving. He has now found a new love from the Phillipines via the internet. After reading about a narcissist this fits him to a tee. I have gone through hell and never knew why until now. This is yet another affair from the internet the last woman moved here and the affair lasted almost 3 years. He lives down the street from me so occasionaly he stills upsets my life. He has made me feel ugly old and very depressed. Nothing I do was ever good enough and as always the blame is always on me. I receive horrible texts from him and constant battering as how no good I am. He lies about everything and tells everyone how horrible I am but yet comes around only to tell me he loves me. There is nothing he hasn’t done to me to hurt me. I am an emotional wreck and don’t know how to handle this. He sends his new woman expensive presents while not even caring if I have food. My job moved to Mexico and he told me I couldn’t afford him anymore. He is on disability and hasn’t worked in years and it was totally up to me to do everything, yards, cars, bills just everything. He is so nice to everyone but me what can I do? I can’t take this anymore I am at the end of my rope. His ol girlfriend is paying all his expensives while he dotes on the new one. He is definitely in love with this new one and it’s like I never existed except he wants me to go out to dinner or have sex than leave me for her. He says he is moving to the Phillipines to be with her supposedly. He tells me to leave so he can talk to her on the computer everything is so unfair please I need help ASAP I just can’t take this anymore. I know he will show up at my door again and I need the strength to send him away. There was not one thing that I read about narcissist behavior that didn’t fit him.
Hi KIm,
After much anguish I separated form my NPD husband one year ago.After that he began exhibiting some extremely bizarre behaviour including hiding my ncar from me for 4 months and lying to me about it( I finally found abandoned in a car repair workshop)and many other weird things followed.
I thought after 25 years I had done all I could to make the unworkable work. I planned to lick my wounds and heal myself and to keep moving forward and maybe find a healthier relationship. Trouble is we have stayed in close contact and are somewhat enmeshed.I have little interest in other men. I feel myself drawn back to him and the relationship. He is a highly intelligent and successful man and does have many good qualities and is the father of my children. My friends who know what I have been through will think I have lost my mind.
I am fearful of going through divorce and know that it will be very ugly and he will punish me. That is not a good reason to stay but I don’t feel strong enough to take the hard road especially as I genuinely like him but my love has been sorely tested.
Hello,
My story is way too long to tell in detail, but I’ll just summarize by saying that I’ve been married to a man who, last year was diagnosed as NPD. Our counselor did not diagnose him to himself, but to me on the phone behind his back. She knew that he would not accept the diagnosis, but she wanted me to know that what I was dealing with was exactly what I thought.
I’ve been married for 22 years, have 3 children by him and one from a previous relationship. I have a granddaughter as well.
My husband’s narcissism manifests in his finding worth only in what he can do with his hands…building, tearing down, rennovating houses and other structures. His father put him down all his life, so my husband subconsciously works to please his father every day of his life.
He cannot handle any form of criticism and will not take blame or anything even if he’s caught doing it. He goes through the same patterned defense mechanisms, no matter what the situation.
He will go from denying he did something, to giving an excuse for doing it, to getting angry that you noticed he was doing it…anything but admit “yes you’re right. I did that. I’m sorry.” Being sorry means being “vulnerable” to him. Sometimes this gets really annoying because it’s childish.
I think he’s getting worse as he ages, but most of the time he’s out working somewhere. He will probably work physically till his body can’t move anymore, and then he will be homebound and I will have to care for him or put him in an assisted living facility or something…I don’t know, but it’s not been easy. There has been a lot of abuse of the first 2 children and of me physically, but I left him several times during those things, we got counseling, and now, I pretty much pick my battles and do what I can to not “push his buttons.”
For the most part, it has worked well.
I also have a hobby of making Psychological Youtubes about Narcissism and other topics. These are free and are my way of getting the information out, so that people going through this will not feel so alone or crazy.
~Laura
in five years of knowing my husband and 4 years of marriage he has left countless times and had to be asked to leave more than 15 times. he has been arrested and he has walked out – but he regfers to all of the incidents as him being ‘thrown out’.
he exahusts me with his attitude of total blamelessness (of himself)BUT he adores me and loves me in between leaving me to cope with all responsibility and all upset when he is ‘thrown out’ (usually due to violence or verbal abuse)
I would love to say WE have worked at it – but in fact mainly I have worked at it! He does respond to me being assertive etc NOT angry and upset – I know Kyms approach works and I am speaking with my church (love of God finally gave me some self esteem)and my husband and me have got the possibility fo a great future. I am based in Cotswolds (UK) if anyone wants to speak to me directly.
This is to Lana Grammer, Lana my heart goes out to you. I understand all you are saying and if I can be so bold as to say I understand what you are feeling. I have dealt with my narcissist for 29 years. Lana, if you could read what you wrote from someone else’s eyes, you would never want or allow that person to continue accepting the treatment that you are allowing. I am saying this badly. You have left him, as I have left mine before finding this site. But the principles that Kim teaches are still effective. He won’t respect your allowing him to keep abusing you. How ironic this is, but you need to put up boundaries. Do not allow ONE unkind word or action to come from him. Don’t allow his infidelity. Just hang up the phone, reject his texts, don’t allow him in the front door. At all times handle him nicely, that speaks about who you are, but none the less, he needs to be shut down when there is any abuse. It is what he will respect but most of all, it is what YOU deserve. You are not ugly, or old and the depression is only from the effects of what he throws at you. Underneath everything is love and life and caring. Put the abuse away from you. You all ready have some distance. You need to work on YOU and embracing the beauty that is within you. You have the beauty coming forth or he wouldn’t be trying to squash it. Lana, find the strength to stand up for yourself. Be loving and kind but strong and firm. Build up your self doing some things that you love and make you feel good about yourself and that build a strong, healthy life. My heart goes out to you and your plea. You can do this. You deserve it. You are worthwhile. Take care and be strong.
Hi Madge,
You are doing very well and congratulations because a narcissistic partner
is not an easy thing to deal with at all and I am not surprised
it sometimes gets you low.
The problem wit the kids is a tough one and I do admit it took the longest
with Steve, it was like he could completely drop the ‘act’
and be himself with me but then he would just get so
scared of showing the kids how vulnerable he felt and
in front of them the big tough and stern guy would be back.
I think that the trick here is you being a bit savvy in
finding him some new friends? If you keep a look out for
some men that are better fathers in terms of them being warm
and able to be themselves around younger people
it will for one thing set a better example for him and
also give him some people he wants to impress by being
better about this. I have also noticed that male narcissists
really crave solid male friends.
I introduced Steve to an older man in his 70′s who shared an
interest in gardening (on a fairly big scale) with Steve and this man
(who also was once a minister) became a very good solid role
model for Steve and someone that he did well in wanting to impress.
There may also be some kind of mentoring program at your
church etc. that you could challenge your husband to join?
If he was mentoring other younger men in an official capacity
it might give him some pride in improving his skills
with this and there would be other men in the program to
also monitor him and perhaps give him advice.
You may not think he would be interested but then you might
be surprised. I have found Steve like a duck to water in anything
where he gets to spend time with (particularly older) men.
Hang in there Madge and congratulations that your gay
son has such a warm and stable relationship. That is a real credit
to you as I know life can be very challenging and lonely for a
lot of gay men.
Kim
Hi Lana,
OK so you want this guy gone out of your life for good? Because you really need to make
up your mind. You will not be able to use our program to help him and leave him too
and it is best you understand this. The last chapter in “Back from the Looking Glass” will however
teach you how to get him to leave you alone for good if that is what you want. You must also
stop giving him money or taking care of him but this will be easy once you see what you have
to do. Part of that I think will be telling him you love him but that you are broke and start asking
him for loans! (LOL). But no seriously I think you should still also get our workbook too because
there is still so much you can learn in there to protect yourself and start rebuilding your life and
make sure you never let someone use you like this again. It is time you learn to be tougher and
smarter and get what you want out of your life!
Hang in there Lana, and all the best,
Kim
Hi Anna,
I know that you would get a lot from ur ebooks and I think it might help you decide
one way or another what you want to do an how to go about it. When you see how much
is involved you might either say “I can do this” or you will say “It is not worth it” and you
will know. Either way I know that our advice will teach you to be much stronger and
tougher and hopefully never again let him get away with stealing your car!
Hang in there Anna,
Kim
Thanks Laura,
You might tell people on this list where they can find your movies and I hope that you
have found our movies and books too and that they might be of so e help.
It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of your husbands wound and
have been through enough that you might build enough trust with him to bring
his walls down, before you are left caring for him wen he is old which is something
which I can hear you are rightfully worried about.
Hang in there and you are not alone either and I am glad that you have found us,
Kim.
Thanks for your help cathy and I really want to give a warm welcome to all the newcomers
here and thank-you for your courage in sharing your stories.
I want to encourage you all to help and support each other and if it gets too crowded just
suggest a new discussion topic.
I will be off writing two new books I have had on the drawing board for some time now
and while I am gone Steve will be around as will Sanjay (for customer service issues) and a
new team member Steve will introduce in a couple of days.
Still this is your space which we will protect and keep sheltered for all of you and we encourage
as much as possible you to make friends and help each other all you can and I will drop in
now and then to offer what extra advice I can.
You are all so beautiful and strong deep down inside and these trials you are going through will
bring that strength to the surface in the next few weeks and months I just know it.
You hang in there too Suzanne and I know someone is here to help you. The advice in our ebooks
is NOT easy but it is worth learning and will benefit you not just with your partners but in so many
other ways you will never regret learning these things.
Take care and thanks again Cathy for being here to lend a hand,
All the best,
Kim
As I said, I have a Youtube Channel in which I specifically discuss Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
The address for that is: http://www.Youtube.com/DelusionDispeller. (thank you Kim, for letting me post my link here)
I have a comment regarding one of the common things about NPD. I have read not only in your writings, Kim, but other posts about NPD, that the person with the disorder tends to behave one way in public and another way in private. I have also seen this in the female Narcissists I’ve come across.
With my husband, his behavior is really not different in public or in private toward me. He is nasty to me in front of people or behind closed doors. Basically, I think there may be a bit of antisocial behavior in him as well.
The hardest thing to deal with regarding him, is that his father taught him to have disdain for animals and for people who are ill or mentally challenged. He sees both as worthy of torment and most of the time, if he hears of an unfortunate incident involving either, his attitude will be “so?” In other words, if things do not affect him directly and personally, he has learned to put a wall of not caring. He has very little empathy toward people or animals and hates to see me show any…he calls me a “bleeding heart” because I can’t stand to just let someone struggle or suffer for any amount of time, and will step in to help them.
Overall, if I had it to do over again, there is no way I would have married this man. I have 3 lovely girls by him though, so that is my silver lining in the cloud that happens to have come along with him.
I want you to know, Kim…I have tried your techniques (other that calling the police on him) because I call the police on the neighbors all the time for their bullying my daughter anyway.
I do know that both husband and daughter COWER when a policeman comes to the house. I’ve seen it…they start shaking or crying like babies, because they perceive police officers as very high and powerful in the line of authority and punishment (maybe representative of their own brutal fathers?) So, your suggestion to call the police is a good, effective one!
I could write books myself here, but I’ll keep this short for now. In fact, my pastor told me to write books about how I have overcome obstacles in my life, but I have no clue how to get them published after I write them.
~Laura
I don’t know if we are limited in how many comments we may post, but I think this might possibly help someone…
Over the past 2 years, my husband’s cousin’s son was diagnosed with MMA (Methylmelonic Acidemia). This disorder requires him to use a G-Tube/Foley device (hole in his stomach with a hose attached) in order to eat. The baby cannot digest much protein and breaks out in rashes if he gets ahold of any offending food substance.
My cousin has taken this boy to countless doctors. His case is so rare that they want to put him in medical books!
Recently, a new doctor in Seattle discovered that there is a missing gene in my cousin’s son. Her daughter and she both have the same missing gene, and the baby’s grandmother also might have this. Lacking this chromosome is starting to be linked with mental/psychological learning disabilities and behavioral disorders…
As you can imagine, my cousin and I are now wondering if this is the same problem throughout the family, all the way generations back. My mother-in-law, her sister, my husband, his sister and brothers all could have this missing chromosome, which accounts for the slow-learning in the family (every one of the daughters I have had with my husband, are slow-learners, have failed a grade or two, and have been homeschooled because of inability to function in a social environment).
If this is the case, what I believe may have happened is this:
My husband’s father was raised in an orphanage that I believe was very abusive and cold. My husband’s mother most likely has a learning disability. Put these two together and it was NPD meets TOTAL DEPENDENT. The father molested both his step daughter and daughter and not sure about the sons. He was brutally abusive to both animals and his children (my husband being one of them), was never happy or satisfied with anything his children did, but demanded constant perfection and utter, unquestioning respect.
Now, one of the things of Narcissists is they can NOT stand people who seem “weak.” If my husband and his mother and his siblings had learning disabilities, being that my father-in-law had a GENIOUS IQ, he would see them as an embarassment and deserving of his brutality. Beat up an already mentally dysfunctioning person and what do you have…well, a number of things…alcoholics (3 of husband’s brothers became this), workaholic narcissist (husband), and a daughter who was so extremely abusive to her children that her son didn’t even want to live with her and moved back home with her ex…her daughter shows the same mental slowness as the rest of the family. (she couldn’t figure out how to get the cap back on a detergent bottle) and my children know her as the “ditz” of the family because of the silly things she says and not jokingly.
Well, I’ll let you all know what happens with the mma situation and the possible linking-chromosome that could be lacking. I’m hoping at some point that they test the entire family!
~Laura
Cathy, thank you for your comment, and Kim I really don’t know how to put him out of my life forever. Just yesterday I let him come back here again. He is now in love with the Flipino woman and has her picture in his (our) bedroom. Will his behavior continue on to her also? Why is so hard not to just walk away forever? I am miserable, I don’t clean the house I don’t want to leave or go outside of the house. All he wants to do is use me and doesn’t try to hide the fact he’s in love with yet another one. It is always him making people feel sorry for him and how bad he was treated. I have never gotten so mad at anyone that I hit them until him and it makes me feel so low but he calls me everything under the sun and I just can’t take it anymore.So now I will try being extra nice to him all the while making him stay away. I will let you know how this works.I really believe he wakes up lying anymore.
Lana Grammer, This is Cathy again. Don’t beat yourself up for letting him come back again. Statistics say that it takes an average of 7 times before an abused person has the strength to say enough is enough and truly mean it. But it could take 30 times and each time is genuine and hopefully you will gain the strength bit by bit. What will help you in the mean time is putting up those boundaries. The abuse that he puts forth to you is intended to make you angry, to hurt you and keep you down. He can justify himself more powerfully when he can point a finger at you. (But then again we all know that they justify themselves at every turn no matter how well or how poorly we handle ourselves.) And this is a exactly why we need to learn this next principle I want to explain. Since he is going to justify himself and put the blame on you no matter what you do, then you need to stop accepting what he is saying to you. Kim calls this method “Snipping” or something like that where you just separate yourself from the emotions and the actions that he is thrusting upon you. When he tells you that you are to blame or that you haven’t measured up you just “snip” “snip”, (like letting go of a bouquet of balloons that you are holding on to) and don’t let the comment take hold in your emotions. As he is talking you can think about the tv show that you are going to enjoy later. If he said your hair was blue you would know it was untrue and be accurate in thinking he was “off his rocker”. The comment would just deflect off of you and not take hold. Why should it? It is irrelevant to who you are or anything that matters or is true. Well these other hurtful comments are no different. They are not true. It doesn’t have any relevance to who you are. Don’t accept them. Let them deflect off of you. This tactic is going to throw him off, when he realizes his abuse is not affecting you the way it always has. It will give you some of your power back and hopefully some of your self esteem. AND get that woman’s picture off of your bedroom wall. You do not have to be disrespected like that. It is completely inappropriate. Do not accept abuse in any form, and that is a blatant form of abuse. One thing I was shocked at was how much power I actually had with my abuser. I spent so many years afraid of him and thought I had no choices. When I started standing up for myself (nicely, remember, being dignified and nice is important to building the strong, beautiful, kind woman that I wanted to be) that I saw him back off. I had the power to stand up for myself all along. Who knew? Every step you make in the right direction is a victory Lana. And by the way, he is NOT in love with the Filipino woman, she is just his next target for abuse. Snip, snip Lana!! Cathy
I went through this over the past year, Narcissists are really scary, they will stop at nothing. I love Ryan, but he is gone and I cannot fix it. I wish I would have know what to do at the time, I know now he really needed me to be strong and I let him down. I just didn’t know what to do. Do they usually come back? I don’t think he ever will…I would love to help Ryan, but he won’t give me another chance. I am strong now though, and ready to move on. Thank you Kim.
I have a question but I’ll start with parts of my story as maybe some of it may help someone.
I’m 35. My husband has been abusive to me for 7 years…we have been together for 11 and friends for 24. I believe the responsibility of fatherhood triggered it for him. I have been sworn and shouted at thousands of times..and psychologically and emotionally bashed in a cycle of uncontrolled rage…remorse/love/closeness…neutral almost detached calm…complete indifference..contempt…. building tension…rage/terrible abusive outburst.. and then remorse and affection again.
I ended up 3 years ago in a psychologist’s rooms seeking help for my ‘issues’ (I had believed him when he said I was the cause of all our problems). It turns out yes…as with probably all of us I did have some work to do. My main problems were I was tetering back and forth into depression..and I had a child-like need to be approved of and valued and a very low sense of personal entitlement (due to experiencing my parents disappointment in me meeting unrealistic high standards as a child now reaffirmed as an adult by my current abusive partner). It’s no wonder I accepted my husbands critisism and unrealistic expecatations of me as a failure on my behalf and I slowly gave him more and more control without either of us noticing.
I did not take medication…but it took a lot of work…I’m now stronger and have a sense of what is just and unjust in regards to how I am treated. Most of the time it is unjust..unfortunately as I became stronger and expected more my husband had to go further to ‘keep the power and control’. In the last 12 months it has become violent on occassion either smashing furniture or objects or hurting me physically. My psychologist now has me accepting that I’m in a relationship of domestic violence and until my partner seeks help I can’t do a lot more other than damage minimalization.
I finally said to my partner last week….during an outburst…”look I love you and it is my preference to spend my life with you but I cannot spend my life with the man who is shouting at me right now. He is not the real you. You are a loving man with issues relating to your parents and those issues are impacting on me and your children and you need and deserve help. I believe you use me as the excuse for your anger but I do not believe I am the real reason. If you don’t get help my 2 choices are to stay in this volatile environment or go..and I cannot stay.” (I had planned this speech in advance..in the heat of the moment it’s hard to think clearly).
It initially didn’t work the way I’d hoped. He became more enraged and said there was no way he’d get help because I make no effort in anything I do. He swore..told me if I expected him to get help I could go get ****. He told me to get the **** out of his life and then got on the phone, transferred his wages out of his account and told me to come up with the mortgage and seek legal advice about my entitlements because I would be suprised at what he already knew (he was bluffing). It was horrible…but similar to the past… I rang a friend who is a social worker who made me calm down and believe in myself. She said ‘let him threaten and fume and keep trying to control you…this is more proof as to how out of control he feels…YOU WILL BE OK WHATEVER YOU DECIDE TO DO BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WITH THE PROBLEM…do not let him know how much this is hurting you…stay strong in his presence. So I went out and got out the white pages and looked up the numbers of all the support agencies I could find. I think this made him realize I meant it and I was moving on. (he was busy making a list….’change my will’ , ‘change my insurance’, ‘ring work to get my wages put in my account’ etc etc…)
Late into the night…he came in and humbly begged me not to leave and promised to get help. I nearly fell out of bed. In a way it was confusing because I had finally decided it had to end. I’m still wary….actions are louder but it was the first ever acknowedgement that he could benefit from advice and help.
I do have a question after all this….we HAVE to get this right..he will not tolerate going fom one counsellor to another. Should we speak together as a couple…should he go alone….should he go to anger management…a counsellor or a psychologist? He hasn’t been diagnosed with anything because of course he hasn’t spoken to anyone before but it is my layperson’s thoughts that narcissism is HIGHLY likely…I want someone who can recognize this if he does have it and provide appropriate help. We live in the eastern parts of Melbourne. Would love some feedback if anyone has any.
Cara,
I am not going to say much because our program is designed exactly for you. You are in nearly an
identical situation as I was and I was also in Australia. If there is any reason you can’t buy our ebooks
(I would suggest special offer 3 on our introductory specials page) please let us know and we will
help you purchase them. You are not alone, the steps and exercises in our books are written as if
they were just for you.
You cannot leave this up to your husband getting help and there is not many people out there who
would know how to help him or say there was any hope anyway. It is great he has let his vulnerability
show but you cannot keep threatening to leave to keep his resolve up or it will back fire. It was
your strength in this situation and your courage to go public that he responded to anyway more
that your threat to leave. We will teach you how to keep this strength up and help
yourself to help him. He wont need lots of time in counselling or therapy anyway I would say.
But he will need you knowing that you are the strong one and he will need some patience and
very strong boundaries and limits put on his abusive behaviour and the right challenges in appropriate
time frames.
I am glad that you found us Cara … you are not alone,
Kim
I’m in something of an immediate quandary, and wonder if anyone has advice. My boyfriend of four years and I recently separated (he moved to his sister’s house in a neighboring town) Our relationship has been tumultuous; he is alcoholic, a smoker, and looks frequently at porn (addicted?). He went to rehab several years ago, but relapses frequently in the form of social (not excessive) drinking. When we are together, he seems to be able to control both the drinking and smoking with not too much trouble, but on the occasions we’ve separated he resorts to heavy use and feels “rudderless.” He associates me with stability and wants to be with me. He is rarely honest when he thinks he may meet disapproval, and has maintained a likeable personna with his mother and sister for years and years. They always take him in and think he’s been ill-treated. I recently found out that his porn use, of which I was occasionally aware, has remained a compulsion despite assurances to the contrary. This was the reason for the last separation. He blames me for any acting out he does, saying that it is my overreactions to things that spurs his addictions. I know better. I know he cannot accept responsibility and does not want to be accountable. During this last separation, he began looking at sites for porn addicts, made a couple of posts, and seemed to get it and wrote to me with some clarity about the issues. But, in the past few days, since we’ve considered getting back together, I’m seeing again his dodging behaviors. In essence, I’m the only person in his life who demands accountatility and honesty, so I remain an “intervention commitee” of one. What I want to know is whether it is advisable or even ethically correct to tell his mother and sister the truth of his behaviors so that he doesn’t have that cushion to fall back on every time he thinks he’s had it with me.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Hi Cindy,
Please check out a a great book called, “Seven weeks to sobriety” for his alcohol problem. Alcoholism is a physiological disease that needs medical and nutritional intervention. Yes there are issues in his head that feed his drinking but the underlying problem is the sugar imbalance that alcohol creates. Check out the book, it is really wonderful.
When you are the only ‘intervention committee’ (very well put, BTW) you will only grow tired and resentful, no matter how much you love him; this is why Kim and I recommend building a support network of other people. His mother and sister may become defensive if you approach this topic carelessly, s be careful. As Kim says, you must frame this with your concern for him as the major theme. Don’t act like you have the answer, just admit that you have no idea what to do about his addiction to porn. (Even though you may have some ideas). It is vital that you get them on side, and this can be a difficult job. Is there anyone else you can approach.
There are two roads in life for us all; the road to personal growth, and the road to personal disintegration. If he can build a healthy attachment to you he will grow and so might you. If he keeps an attachment to porn the only way is down. There is little room for personal growth with a porn addiction.
So please take care in your next step Cindy, you can do it well I am sure.
Steve,
My husbands behavior indicates an addiction. I have checked his web history and different things and the main thing that I see him doing is watching movies. (Thank you Net Flix) They aren’t X rated or anything, but the nudity and such in R’s and even PG 13 movies is so offensive to me. Where he used to turn his head, now he seeks it out.
Would you consider this a porn addiction possibly? He is so closed off to admitting any problem with this but his behavior is so indicative of succumbing to an addiction. He watches a good three movies every night until on into the middle of the night. I really think that this is all that he is doing. There aren’t magazines, or other women. Is this enough to have a porn addiction? And what can be done if he won’t admit to there being anything wrong?
Hi Kim & Steve:
I was married for 13 years to a man I believe has NPD. I left him six months ago and regret it very much. I wish I would have found your site before I left him. We have three children together (11,8, & 2)and two adult children with other people. The seperation has been hard on the kids but harder on me. He has a new girlfriend and says he is very fond of her. “She does things for him I never did”. I left him because he was texting and talking to another woman. This was the third time I caught him having extra marital relationships. I suspect there were many others though. I never felt secure in the relationship. He lied all the time about the most rediculous things. Things he did not have to lie to me about. He would boast about how great he was at his job and how everyone loved him so much yet, he has no friends or social life. If he wasn’t talking about how great he was he was talking about how stupid and incompetent everyone else was. This really turned me off and I did not know how to tell him. Because of my insecurity and frustration I was unable to be affectionate with him. I felt like he was emotionally unavailabel to me and he said the same about me adding physically unavailable. I did everything for him from keeping our budget to maintaining our large yard (on two acres). I work 30 hours a week and take care of the childrens needs on my own. He never gave any signs of appreciating what I did. The lies and other women in his life are the reason I left. I felt like our whole life together had been a lie. I felt like he had absolutely no regard for me or my feelings. He has not paid cild support in two months and sees the children about 15% of the time. He refuses to give me the childrens toys and the rest of my things. I have filed for divorce but need him to sign the child support agreement and asset document to finalize it. He has not signed either stating that he does not agree with everything I put in them. I have not pushed the issue because I am holding on to hope that he will realize that I was a good wife and our family is worth fighting for. Now that I have left him, he has paid me 50% of the equity from our home, I have purcased a home, and he has a girlfriend he has been involved with for three months I don’t think he will ever come back to me. I just don’t know what to do. If you have any advise for me I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanks
Cindy
Hi Cathy,
I would be suspecting a porn addiction, but I can’t be sure. I am certain that you must find out one way or the other. His addiction to watching the box is a relationship killer and is really unacceptable on many levels.
So, first, find out as much as you can about what he is watching, and then decide what the next step might be.
If it is porn, you need to be honest with him about how you feel about that. Really make sure you know what your feelings are about it before you speak to him. Give him a chance to rectify it, be clear about what you want, but no ultimatum should be given to him about it yet. Give him notice that you know about it.
If it isn’t porn, I still think that you have a serious problem on your hands. Movies are fantasy, highly removed from reality. Even the kinds of dramatic, non-fantasy stories are not very reflective of reality. He has made a point of non-communication as his form of communication, and this will end your marriage eventually. How long has this been going on? This is going to be difficult to approach, because he has immersed himself in goodness-knows-what, and is out of practice being able to relate to people. This may present a problem of him being defensive, so be careful.
This brings me back to my suggestion of keeping your next communication with him on a level of how YOU feel. If you are lonely, he needs to know. But try and stay as calm as possible, it has to be about you and not him at this stage.
Hi Cindy,
I hope you’re doing Ok, it sounds like you’ve had a hard time of it.
To answer your question as honestly as I can, I want to point you back to something you said in your post.
you wrote.
” I have not pushed the issue because I am holding on to hope that he will realize that I was a good wife and our family is worth fighting for.”
It sounds to me like you *are* a good wife and that you *are* worth fighting for. If there is anything about yourself that makes you doubt this, you need to look at that immediately, and start taking steps to build your own belief in yourself again.
Wanting him to ‘prove’ this is placing all the power in his hands, and is making you powerless, even though you are a really get woman worth fighting for.
Now, I know this doesn’t completely help, because there are other factors contributing to your hurt. Like him acting like a single man while you are doing %85 of the child-rearing, (of his kids). So, please don’t think like I am trying to give you any easy answers here.
Since there seems to be a formal separation here, you have lost the opportunity to follow many of our steps in our guides. My guess is that he will eventually want you back, or eventually realise that you were the right woman for him. That may take decades…it may take years….I really can’t say. But there isn’t much you can do at this stage to change his mind about this. You can take the positive steps of self-soothing and filling your own development gaps.
I really don’t enjoy hearing about stories like yours Cindy, but I do know that if you give our eBooks a chance, we can help you with building your own feelings of self-assurance. It may be too late with this guy, so wish him well and give your best to you and your kids now. I’m so sorry.
Hi Steve:
Thanks for your response. That is what I was afraid of. It just really baffles me as to why he wont sign the papers or give me mine and the childrens things. My hope was that he wanted us back but I suppose it has more to do with control and his disrepect for me. I am seeing a therapist and it is helping. Eventually I might get over my co-dependancy and be able to have a healthy relationship with some one new.
Thanks again and keep up the good work. Best wishes to you and Kim.
Cindy
Hi Cindy,
If I were your fairy Godmother, I would put a good behaviour spell on him, one that would last forever, I would rub out the other woman, I would give him flowers and chocolates and send him back to you to beg your forgiveness. I think your heart would want that more than finding someone new at the moment.
This is where we really want to make a point. You are not wrong to love him, you are a great person to want to hold out hope for him. Trying to find answers is a natural and intelligent response to his abuse.
Sometimes, Kim and I have to admit that we can’t help, and in your case I don’t think winning him back is anywhere on your radar. There will be an enormous advantage in you reading our eBooks however, because you will have a relationship with him for a long time via the kids. You cannot allow the kids to see you being abused and manipulated by him. They will learn this to be normal and it is not acceptable in 2009. You need to have tools ready to limit abuse, no matter how subtle or covert. You can do it..
Steve,
Yes, I do have a problem on my hands. You asked how long this has been going on well… it started in about 2005, I called him on it and he stopped for about 10 months and then he started in again with staying over at his office (which is across the street from our home) until 2 to 3 am every night. Of course I was lonely and told him so time and again but the final straw was that I got a notice that our house was in foreclosure and was to be auctioned in 10 days. I didn’t know. When I confronted him about it, not in accusation, but in distress of “what do we do”? He flew at me with horrible accusations and left the room.
This is a tiny glimpse of what has gone on for 27 years. Your unbelievable descriptions of confabulation, accusations, delusions of grandeur, all you have said about NPD is a description of my life. He told me I was crazy for so many years I believed it. His cruel treatment of our 7 children and the control and hurt that he has caused them have had them begging me to leave him for years. After the foreclosure incident I left him. This was in the spring of 2007. Since then he moved into his office and I moved back and live in our home across the street from our office. It has been two full years that we have been living across the street from each other: married, dating and separated. I feel that one of the greatest obstacles is this movie fetish he harbors. And your words made me question that possibly what I am actually fighting is pornography. It is a better life than what I had because he isn’t under our same roof and I don’t tolerate the abuse, but it is not healthy and it is not acceptable. It was after I left that I came across your website and your book. I have done much of what you have suggested. I treat him kindly (although his confabulation often creates another story, I only know that I am correct in my perceptions because my children will have witnessed an interchange and confirm that I have handled him kindly.) I created the support group you suggested. I call him on the abuse and he knows I won’t tolerate it. The one thing I can’t rectify with your advice is that I have all ready left him. I can see the value you speak of in that he needs to know that he won’t be abandoned. But it was too late for that since I had all ready left. The children and I are safer and healthier with the separation however, we are not subject to his decrees and outbursts and punishments. So, you were exactly accurate in stating that it would end our marriage eventually. But it hasn’t really ended. I feel like I love him and he charms my soul when he is kind to me, but then he is cold and I see the cruel things he does and is and I feel that I am only in love with a dream of what he could be and what I want him to be. Is he really the monster that he presents? If so, then I don’t like who he is, and I shouldn’t nurture the love I feel for him at times. Or is he just this damaged child that can be nurtured back to health if I stay and try to help him?
Steve, I tell you, I didn’t think you were for real when I first read your website and ebooks. I didn’t see how a person who has NPD could be consistently compassionate and kind, could heal the damage inside them and be a healthy addition to their family. I am impressed with your admission of who you were and the way you treat Kim and your advice to all of us. How do I take my messy situation and nurture into health our relationship?
Hi Cathy,
Thanks for your post. The problem is he is both the monster and the frightened child. When he is a nasty and horrible monster, he is hiding the frightened child, and vice versa. The nastiness is behavior related, the child is more his real self. The problem is that you haven’t got this lion in the ring anymore. We can teach you how to handle the whip and the chair while this lion is in the ring, but now that he is out on his own…you will have trouble.
Of course you still have feelings for him, and his nastiness doesn’t cancel out his better qualities. This is your children’s father an you will need to nurture some positivity towards him. But having said that, he needs to know that he has killed your passion and a large part of your womanhood, “and that sucks buddy”. You can remain civil in other areas, but about the sexual abandonment of you, he needs to face that failure(of duty). I am not sure how you can deliver such an emotionally charged message while staying calm like we suggest. Maybe you don’t have to be completely calm, but try not to be hysterical.
Take good care Cathy, I know this won’t be easy for you.
He is still very much in the ring because we see each other daily. He considers himself married and not even separated, his bedroom is just across the street. He says that “he will do what is needed to give me what I want, but he doesn’t know what that is.” I have been very clear that I want him home accept for work, (he comes home maybe 5 minutes a day accept when we have a special occasion) I want him involved in our lives, I want the movies to stop. I want him to support us financially. How much clearer can I be?
Steve, how do you know that you have changed? I mean is it because it has been a long time that you have been on this better path? Is it because you feel differently inside? Are your thought processes different? What does being healed of NPD look like and feel like?
Cathy
Need some advice – I’m married to a wonderful husband for 12 years. He was married before and had two sons out of the marriage. He obtained full custody of his kids as his ex wife left the country after the divorce. She came back in the kids lifes after a few years and we thought it is great that she wanted to build a relationship with them again… after a lot of confusion… (to much to tell) we realized that she (my husbands ex) must be a narcisist. Our youngest son had to go to a psychologist due to all the confusion she caused in his life (mostly unknown to us). She told ridiculous lies to him about my husband and I (the parents who raised him; she specifically tried her best to destroy my relationship with the boys). Now she apologised profusely for what she did and committed herself “not to mess up again”. How do I handle this situation? She is my husbands ex and my two sons mother… how can I make the most of this? Should I tell the kids of their Moms disorder? They love her a lot and I do not think its a good idea… but I want to protect them from getting hurt & confused any more… and I also want to protect myself and my relationship with my children. I enjoyed and found your book helpful, but will like your views on my specific situation. Thanks!
I have a narcissistic boyfriend who I have been living with the past 5 months. The main problem with his behavior is that he refuses to have sex and spend hours on the internet about 30 percent of the time looking at pictures of other women(not porn just on a website he frequents) and saving them on his computer, needless to say this is very hurtful. Anytime I try to confront him on any aspect of his behavior he threatens to leave. He has been married several times before and would probably walk out the door without too much provocation. I do love this man, feel sorry for him, and would like to stay with him, but he is not making me feel valued, when I try to tell him how I feel he says I am jealous and possesive. I am working on trying to make myself stronger, so that I can be alone if I have to, but I do love and feel sorry for this guy, and I would like this situation to work out long term if possible, but obviously I need to get my needs met. Advice…not sure how much I want to tolerate.
Hi Kim and Steve,I need some advice and am wondering if anyone else has had this problem.I have been living with my boyfriend for 16 yrs.He has no children and has never been married.I have 6 grown children and have been married twice,(there was physical and verbal abuse in both past marriages),and when I met my boyfriend I was determined to make this relationship work.He seemed so much calmer and well different than my 2 x’s.I have since come to realize that he isnt any better than my x’s he was just better at hiding his aggression as I believe he is passive agressive.After discovering your site and reading how a narcissist behaves I believe he is also Narcissistic.My problem among many is this; he has had what started out as a rash on his arms and lower legs for the last 5 years. He said it was scabies and that I gave it to him by cheating on him.(I have never cheated on him.)He called me all kinds of things ,slut ,ect.I didnt have any symptoms but I thought if i proved I didnt have anything like that he would stop. Well I went to 3 Doctors they all said I had nothing wrong. Finally he stopped. But now he has switched on what he says is wrong with him.He has been saying for the last 3 years that he is infested(to use his wording),with mites. He is totally obsessed with this idea even though I know it is not mites.It has gotten so bad that he wants to wash the bed clothes everyday ,and with so much bleach it burns my nose!He also stays in the shower for 4 or 5 hours ,sometimes longer scrubbing his entire body and using bleach on himself.He has used flea spray and gone to the Doctors giving them the right symptoms so they think he has scabies and gets a prescription that he over uses and leaves on himself for 8 hours instead of the directed 1 hour.The doctor has never actually tested his skin to make sure what he has.I know if he would leave it alone and not constantly pick his scabs off and use harsh things on it that it would go away.But when I try to reason with him he gets mad and says I dont want him to get well and I dont care about him! He is always in a depressed mood around me but seems fine if he is around others. He will be laughing and bragging to someone ,(like he enjoys most),and not acting sick in any way until he is alone with me then he changes .He frowns and moans and says I dont care and that he is really sick!!But he refuses to go to the doctor.I cant take this much longer. I have gotten to the point that I think sometimes I really dont care anymore but I really just want him to love me and be happy so I can love him. Also we havent had sex but maybe one time in the past 2 years and its been this way for almost 8 years. I am 55 and he is 50. His mother and father were alcoholics.His father died in car crash because of him being drunk when he was 7 yrs old and his mother became more and more involved with alcohol ever since.She has since passed also. I have lost all sence of self worth ,and feel like a walking zombie most days,so depressed. I just wanted to get my story out.Sorry for being so long.But believe me I could go on for days there is so much more.Thank You for listening, Melody
Hi!
So I’ve just read your ebook, it was very motivating and invigirating, thank you Kim and Steve for that. I have found my way to you both because I think I’ve reached the point of no return. I also visited several other sites and support groups online that left me feeling like there was a whole world of people out there that knew me but couldn’t help me. It was like I was at home, but unhappy. Finding you both and your work has not only brought me home but given me empowerment that I have needed all my life!!! So thank, thank, thank you!!!
My husband and I have been married for almost 8 years. It wasn’t until this year that I learned of NPD. With the research and experience I FINALLY knew that it wasn’t JUST me, and felt like something made sense for once. I’m at a crossroad and it’s time for me to make decisions. I desperately want to preserve my family with my husband and our two beautiful daughters and beat the odds. I am willing to do the hard work. Letting go of all the negative things that have happened; all the betrayal, lies, cheating, broken committments and abuse over the years has held me down in depression. I always thought if I let go (without some profound acknowledgement from him and some mind blowing apology) that meant it was ok to beat my spirit to a pulp over and over and that I must be worthless since I have let this happen to me for almost a decade with this man I LOVE. NO MORE. I realize that I hold the key to my own source of power and strength and I am prepared to rebuild at all costs.
I am concerned about a few strategies and points in the ebook that I would LOVE for you to support me on. Markell is in the process of launching a business. This process has resurfaced our issues (after a near divorce in January of this year). Each and every time I try to make a suggestion or have input in decision making (these are decisions that will in fact effect my life and my children’s lives) we battle. He believes I have no rights and behaves like I have no equality. I want to work it out but I don’t know how to turn my back and say “do whatever you think is right” when I do not trust him – as he has repeatedly (year after year) made committment and promises of my “safty/security” and broken them to serve his own needs and desires. This in turn breaks the already severed trust and creates the wall between us. The area I am concerned with is reaching out to the community members. He will FREAK if he knows that I have put him in an undesirable light. Especially because of the work he wants to do in the community. I am fearful that building my support system in the community will enrage and severely embarrass him to the point where it will actually hurt me rather than help me. He is the type of N that appears to want to be let go. I separated from him once and he was glad to go and move on without ever even noticing he left a family behind. I don’t want to push him away by addressing his abuse and limiting his success in the community because he values that power and success most. He is capable of great success, and I do believe that he will stop at nothing to get there, this has meant (we have discussed this many times) that if having this family gets in the way of that he believes he should move on. It’s kind of like I’d be lucky to enjoy the lavish lifestyle that he wants to provide so how dare I want anything else. For example how dare I want him not to travel while the kids are young, or how dare I have a hard time sacrificing him being there for the children if I have the opportunity to have a big house and drive a nice car and go on vacations to Europe and… Even though those things aren’t the things that matter to ME. All I want is a partner.
I don’t know if I was clear or not, I certainly am confused! But I do want to follow the guide and be successful at reaching my goals. I do not know how to deal with the fact that he will not appreciate me going out there to ask for help.
Also, he has been held in a light all of his life as he is the most bright star in the sky. Although it doesn’t appear that people (other than me) have unrealistic expectations of him HE is the one. He believes and expects to be perfect because others have driven this into him all his life. It isn’t in a negative way though. It is actually very supportive how his friends and his friend’s parents and his parents see him as “perfect.” So the issue there is how do I separate those situations where he might enjoy inflating his ego but it seems to be in a supportive way. He participated in a schooling program where inner city minorities were bussed into affluent school systems and given opportunity to thrive. He did thrive and he should be proud of it. He recieved a full football scholarship to a division 1 school and played well. He was treated as a god. He should be proud of himself and so should EVERYONE else that knew him right? It’s almost like a cult though, all those who love him and revere him as this person who over came aversity. You should hear the way people talk to him, it’s so strange – like nothing I’ve ever seen before. SO… Is it me? How does he ever learn that he’s normal, that he isn’t perfect, that he can be proud and make mistakes at the same time? He is the one who puts the pressure on himself based on the situation all those around him created. Like it was a bigger deal that he succeeded, did they expect him to fail? Is that what he thinks? He has massive entitlement issues, and why wouldn’t he? So my question is : How does he learn that it’s ok to lower his expectations of himself and still be happy. I don’t think he can be happy unless he’s got his name on buildings and his name in papers for being the best real estate investor around, or the best developer, or the biggest this or the youngest one to accomplish that or the strong balck man who made this… How do I save him from himself?
HELP
I have been with my 44 year old boyfriend for about 3 years and not until I have read about the symptoms of NPD did I understand why I have been treated the way I have been. I am in a cycle of verbal abuse, ( I cannot do anything right, I am always messing up in every aspect of life) did I see what is happening and why. Please help me, I am new to this and I really don’t know how to be “nice” and still not stand for the verbal shouting and put downs. I don’t want to loose this person, what a weird thing to say considering how he treats me, but help me cope and show me how to act when he shouts and puts be down. I am the only person he does this to, he lives with his mother so he won’t do that to her and his daughters from a failed marriage are little china dolls to him, but not me or my daughter. How do I be strong and get the respect that I deserve?
Trisha
Hi Kim and Steve:
I am listening to your latest radio show “Narcissism Q & A” and I would like to point something out to you. First of all, thank you for all you do. I hope your hearts are pure and that you truly are trying to help so people and I applaud you as well as admire for that. But . . .
Your reaction to one the viewer’s question on your latest show – re: How can you say you have a cure when so many experts say they are incurable because they have no ability to feel remorse or empathy – was intriguing. Matter of fact, not to be insulting (truly), but it was borderline narcissistic. Here’s why I think that – and I’ll know by your response and by whether or not this comment disappears from this blog – how forthright you are being here just so we’re clear.
First of all – that person asked a legitimate question and you did EXACTLY like a narcissist does and turned it into something else (ahem, manipulated what was asked-and almost went into a typical narcissistic crazymaking tantrum). That is so indicative of a narcissist. I realize you have alot of experience with this so perhaps it is spilling over into your personal life, but . . . I’m just bringing this to your attention so you can be aware of it.
Then, not only did you turn that question around into something it more than likely was not, because you HAVE to give that person the benefit of the doubt since they weren’t there to defend WHY they asked it to begin with – but you got incredibly defensive after YOU turned the question completely around. I realize this is your life’s work and all, but seriously Kim, guess who behaves this way? A narcissist.
Why couldn’t you just answer the question? It was a legitimate one. Saying (at the end of your diatribe against this listener), “because we’ve been through this” did NOT answer the question directly. Again, another narcissistic trait. Is there some reason you couldn’t have succintly put together a response that would have satiated her concerns about your cure?
Thank you for listening! Looking forward to your response and more shows. I really do enjoy them.
Kyrie
Madge, i thought this note was mine until i got to the part about the children..i have two girls. everything you said is exactly what i am going through. except i don’t think i can do the ‘support’ part any more. yes i read the song and understand the basics but my heart is just not in it anymore. i hope you can do it!
I would like to read the poem song of the male narcissit I was reading one of the blogs from Madge DeBryun and was hoping to share it with me.
I have been married 5 years, 2nd marriage and yes he was charming and all that stuff and I did not really know him or I should say know or understand about NPD. After doing some research, reading, and praying I have understanding somewhat but what I find happens to me is that I forget about when things are going smooth and all of a sudden drama once again. I fall for the trap and I get so mad at myself but only for a short time that I let my guard down. It took me a long time to understand that discussing or conversation was not the way. I do love this man but do not love the roller coaster ride. I am between decisions not sure what to do. will it ever change? I suppose all things are possible… How do I stay alert at all times so
I can use wisdom and keep my peace. I am not afraid of him nor an I afraid to show him my strenght. I want to help him get well, is there any hope for this relationship to ever be what I would like it to be?
I first want to thank Kim and Steve for opening up their hearts and lives to help other people. I was led to your sight and have been able to answer alot of questions, mostly regain some of my self-respect. However, still somewhat in denial I have not subscribed yet. My “husband” goes back and forth between all that is narcisstic”, and being the Godly man he was called to be. However it only takes a small trigger for me to be in the dog house!
I came on a visit to my two older daughters homes, with our two children over a month ago. One Grandbaby was having surgery, and the other needed a housesitter, and one was moving to a new house, on and on…I had not seen my girls for a couple of years or my grandchildren. Somehow I tripped the trigger…He isn’t speaking to me(silent treatment),he always wants a divorce, he isn’t sending any money for groceries( so I am spending the savings), he just informed me that I have no car insurance because he isn’t going to pay any bills and with all that rejection He is purposely not fixing the a/c so i won’t come home. I have been a stay-at-home mom for almost 10 years, I homeschool my children and am bringing them up to follow our Lord. I found out a year ago that my husband was not legally divorced from his first wife in Mexico. We were advised by our pastor that he should get one asap and fix our marriage…each time I have addressed this issue he has talked out of the side of his mouth. I now have Godly counsel to get legal advise, leave my kids with family, and go and give him an ultamatum….In the past and I know in the future God has always answered my prayers, but He has also called me to be obedient to Him, and my yes is on the table….I have to go back to the state where we live, and try to not trigger anything so my young children and I can move forward….I can’t believe how hurtful, he can be….
I don’t know anything other than this narcisstic behaviot opens the door for the “enemy” to come in and tear apart a Christian family. Its all really spiritual warfare….I pray God’s continued Grace and Mercy for us all….Thank You
Hi Kyrie,
It is not narcissistic to be upset by provocative comments, especially when I was honest about the hurt I felt.
I think the advice Kim gave this woman was very sound. Even if she was a bit upset by it. A tantrum? Really?
I have allowed your post this time, but really this place is not for feedback on our performance, this place is for people working on improving their relationships.
If we opened this blog up to those who disagree with us in a non-constructive manner, there would be no safe space for people needing help.
Steve.
Hi Kim & Steve,
I wrote yesterday and was very long winded, sorry. I just have a couple questions maybe you can help me clear up.
After reading the ebook I am thrilled to begin the new process. I however am concerned about reaching out to the community for support (police, DV,…) because my N husband is currently trying to “live out his dream” which involves becoming a very important and well know figure in the community. He is launching a company and (by nature of the N) feels the need to be famous and obviously well recognized and admired. He has been educating himself in preparation to launch this company for several years. Now that the ball is rolling he has begun reaching out to elite members in the community (real estate, financial institutions, business owners, developers, investors…). I do want to support him to succeed in this endeavor (obviously not at the cost of my happiness though). I fear that reaching out to the community on my end for support would infuriate & embarrass him in addition to alienating me even further.
ALSO, I wonder if this endeavor is nothing but a FUEL to his fire. If this building this name for himself will perpetuate his narcissism.
Please help,
Any insight or feedback would be great!
Thanks so much for your work!!!
I am feeling better than I have in years and it’s only the beginning of my process
Allison
Hi,
I am planning to buy the book & audio cassettes after the 4th. But here are some questions. I am 3 years into a relationship that is very abusive. He fits the NPD & BPD. He seems to project his feelings & actions onto me. He says I abuse & mistreat him. I am sad to know that he truly feels that I do this. Even with extensive knowledge to protect myself & help him,he rages at me a few times each day. I try not to let his put downs, obscenities and abuse effect me. But energetically, how does one handle this. I have tried walking out with nice communication, listening without responding to 30 minute reprimands, not engaging in fights, not letting my anger show & releasing it on my own. I have tried this consistantly for a month or so. I have enforced the boundaries that I have read are good to set & it only gets worse. What can I do differently.
Hi,
My spouse and I have had our first setback after 3 very good months. The best 3 months of our 17 years of marriage. I am unsure what brought on this setback but his words and actions are a collection of 17 years of accusations and blame. I feel overwhelmed. I feel very angry when I see childish bad behaviour, mess in kitchen. Freezer looks like a tornado went thru it. I am angry when he accuses me of hiding stuff when its on the kitchen counter when I come home. I am angry when he calls and calls my cellphone and demands I get dinner for him. The craziness the last week is really wearing me down. Where should I look to get help in dealing with the craziness?
Hi Betty,
You need to set a zero tolerance for abuse policy. Let him know that you love him and that you are not going to leave him but that you will not tolerate him raging at you. You can say “I don’t like where this is going and I am not prepared to discuss this further I need to get to work/sleep or just whatever it is that you want to do. If he follows you or continues after this you need back up and there is a lot about this in Back from the Looking Glass and the love safety net workbook. Who does he respect that he would be most embarrassed to know about his behaviour? That may be the person you need to talk to about your concerns for him. The sooner that you are able to disengage when you see what is coming the better.
Kim
Hi Allison,
It sounds very dangerous to me? What are his gaps? What should he really be concentrating on?
If he is being abusive that is his problem and not yours and you cannot protect him from himself.
There is a story of mine that I think you may benefit from here:
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/narcissism_Support/Kims_Blog/Entries/2007/10/14_On_Ego.html
I hope this helps some. I don’t know what kind of bad behaviours he is displaying but if he values his reputation
this actually gives you some leverage. Pick someone in authority to first speak to who will be sensitive to his
desire for privacy but also someone who will warn him of what will happen if his behaviour continues.
If you play this right it sounds like you may actually be saving him from a breakdown or public humiliation
in the future. Can he really sustain this new role he is launching? Watch those gaps!!! It is really these he needs
help with from someone who can be kind and supportive. You can only be kind however if you have
back up protection so don’t baulk at getting help.
Kim
Hi Nadine,
Hang in there but please get onto this quickly. There is someone who is feeding his ego and you need to figure
out who it is and try and talk to them. Who came on the scene when this behaviour started? Think about it you have had
three good months, this is not coming from inside but outside! You need to fix the fence and get this person
either out of your lives or set straight. I remember our last set back like it was yesterday even though it was years ago
I was so devastated. Steve invited a single woman who lives near us into our house (who we normal avoid) and she was
half drunk and flirting with him in front of our kids in my kitchen. I was furious! She even touched his hair in front of us.
This was just one part of all the old bad stuff back and we had a big fight. I went to see my local family support centre
and Judy there gave me the same advice I am giving you. I thought about it and it was not the woman he had invited
in. He could have done that any time and even though she is a flirt, Steve didn’t really like her (just the adoration!).
I thought about it and realised Steve had a new careers coucillour and bingo I had it. He had mentioned her a few times.
You see he couldn’t bring himself to tell her that he was not ready to get any kind of job but was just sorting
the mess out that he had made of his finances and helping me with my business. He needed an excuse to save his
pride and of course me being his standard excuse he just fell right back into blaming me. He told her that I would not let him get
training and that I was controlling and would only let him work for me! I found all of this out when I went and saw her.
At first she was really cold with me but I think she got a surprise when I asked her couldn’t she offer Steve any appropriate
training? She said “What would you consider appropriate?” In a really nasty tone of voice with her arms crossed. I said “Well
anything that is not night work since he has kids and also something that is not around alcohol because of his past record
for DV.” She softened then because she saw that what I was saying was sensible and reasonable and I wasn’t the
b—-h Steve had pretended I was. After we talked for awhile she also saw that a lot of what Steve had told her wasn’t true.
I was so scared to tell him that I had gone and seen her – I thought he would be so angry, but it was the opposite he was
so thankful and hugged me. It was like he was really glad that I had saved him from his own lies and also he was glad to see
that I was smart and strong enough to protect myself now and that I wasn’t going to let him get off the rails again.
After that it was a bit funny actually because Steve had actually told this woman that he was NPD but she hadn’t believed him in the
past but the next time he went to see her she said, OK now I see that you are NPD. She was then very supportive of him
just doing what he was able to and working on his parenting skills and getting his books sorted out without her pushing
him to get a job.
Steve and I might talk about this story on our show this week, I hope it helps and that you get through this.
Kim
Hi Kim,
thank you for the response
I am ordering the book tonite!
Here is the deal though- he acts similar to someone with BPD- he yells & throws things & says that I am abusing him. His cycles have been 1- 3 days. Sometimes 3 times a day he will have a tantrum. He builds up past issues & dominates the conversation so I can never explain. When I try to even when he is calm, he says I am lying to him & manipulating him. My heart aches because despite all my fault, I am a loving,patient person who has always been there for him & all he can say is that I never respect him, abuse & punish him, dont care about his needs, and that he will never trust anything I say. Even with the small things like when I ask him to believe me that I am supportive of the new extreme sports he takes on. He snaps & will never listen to me.
Aside from being totally lonely with him, do you really believes that I am the monster he tells me I am??
Is this normal for NPD or do you think he has something else???
Hi Betty,
Our material will help you whatever his problem because it focuses on you
not getting drawn into his ‘tantrums’. You will need to really do some
work on the personal bill of rights exercise in “the Love Safety Net Workbook”
too. I would also highly recommend you watch a few episodes of “the Super
nanny!” I know that you cannot put him in the naughty chair LOL” but you can
still apply the same zero tolerance for tantrums policy by using the Personal
Bill of Rights exercise and also by refusing to engage (without rejecting him).
I know it is going to take some really strength on your part, but it will be good
for you too.
Hang in there!
Kim
forgot to add- when i try the zero abuse policy, in an assertive yet loving way, he does not think he is raging. So the trivial topics that he wants to rage about continue to come up daily. yet he never feels resolve. when i apologize for hurting his feelings, he says i am not sincere & will never forgive me, when I try to set healthier boundaries, the abuse gets worse either then and or throughout the week.
as for respect, he seems to treat strangers & friends great. he always controls his temper. there is one friend who he respects but that guy has told me to be careful with him because he has a habit of bullying his women. He says he loves & respects his mom although he raged on her after brain surgery because she asked him not to open the window & he thought it disrespectful. he husband has raged on her so talking with her, she has told me that i am bad for him. i push his buttons & this might lead to physical violence. this being my fault..
Hi Kim,
just bought & read the love safety net workbook. Have watched many episodes of supper nanny. i agree with her & have tried to put her teachings into action to set better boundaries & stay unattached to rage & drama. this has lead to me walking out or asking him to leave almost every time.
you suggested to threaten to or call the cops if he uses intimidating methods. almost every day, he will yell, throw things, corner me & bully me where i cannot finish 1 sentence. even when i do not engage, this will happen.
what do you suggest??
i actually have done the bill of rights with my counselor 1 year ago & try to respect it but if i have the right to be treated with respect, have the right to finish a sentence & have my own point of view, i dont understand what i am doing wrong because although i have the right for the above, none of these gets met.
what do you suggest??
your website is kind of my last hope. i love & understand your skill & communications with everyone. I would really like to stay with him & work on myself, thus bettering the relationship.
after reading the book & knowing that I have put many of your ideas into action, i must be doing something wrong.
1-3 times a day he rages & blames. I 99% of the time do as you suggest in the book. I am not passive aggressive anymore. i have shown him that i will not leave him, i offer forgiveness without needing apologies, i am very independent & try positive actions when i feel negative & insecure with him. he just wont stop blaming & yelling at me for everything.
what would you suggest??
thank you for your time & expert advice!!
Hi Betty,
Have you spoken with the police yet? Kim suggests that you make contact with the police before you need them. His behavior of throwing things and cornering you sounds very intimidating.
My husband did this sort of thing on occasion. I spoke with a friend of his who is a gentle, caring, married man, about the problem behavior. I made clear I was doing this out of concern for my husband and for the good of our marriage. I told him I didn’t know how to handle my husband when he did these things. He gave me a few suggestions and also said I should feel free to call him should the need arise.
The next time my husband started doing these things, I told him I felt intimidated, that I had spoken with his friend, etc. He was initially angry that I had done that. I placed a call to the friend, who then phoned my husband and they spoke for a bit. My husband has not engaged in that behavior again in 9 months, so I think it was effective.
I’m glad you got the workbook. Remember that it is a 4-legged stool. Limiting abuse and handling your feelings effectively is really important, but you have to build attachment and do the gap work too.
Good Luck.
Jennie
It appears that I must be the only one living with a NPD WIFE! Yet I know that is not the case. My story threads through many of the ones I have read in this blog. My wife:
grew up being beaten by her dad
criticized by her mother
called names by her siblings
was expected to be the best at everything she did
played piano AND organ for seven church services starting in the seventh grade
is very bragosio
and so it goes…
Yes, she has angry outbursts and takes them out on me and sometimes our children. Yes she would physically beat on me (I would simply defend myself and remove myself from the situation). She can not take criticism. She is the best in everything she does. No one can please her. She has no regard for anyone’s feelings, thoughts, ideas, hurts, etc. I am the root cause of ALL her problems.
I used to get “beat-up” by her early on in our marriage until one night during an outburst SHE called the police. Instead of taking me, they brought her to jail because of the marks on my arms. That has pretty much stopped her from engaging in that behavour. Yet she now has a disdain for police and as usual blames it on me.
Recently I lost my job and now she believes that I need to collect disability, since I seem to not be able to keep a job. I work in an industry that is seasonal and in economic times like now it is usually the first cuts made by any business, customer or contractor. So, yes I have worked for several companies, but the “inability” to keep a job was not due to anything I did. Some I left to take another, more responsible position.
I began researching this subject to find a solution to resolve my living situation. I have yet to come across any website that provides one. I found this site and have hope now.
I am hoping to get a job soon so that I can purchase your books. Right now I am unemployed, in a bad financial situation, my wife pays all bills and handles all money transactions – I can not be trusted – and would blow up if she found me spending money on this topic. I once bought a book on borderline personality disorder and she threw a fit and demanded that I remove it from the house!! I simply read it when she was not around.
I am not looking for charity so keep sending your emails with tid-bits of information that I can use to improve my life.
Thank you!!
DC
Hi Jennie
thanks for the response- i am friends with 5 cops in town. one read me the police report from his last girlfriend who hit him because he made her so mad for months that she broke down during one of his bullying fights. he has told me that if i continue to bully him (talking & expressing my feelings or views & wanting to respond to him although he never asks me questions, just goes off on me, then i will drive him to do something physical. he has threatened me in this off handed way which is also blaming me & justifying what he ‘might do’ if i keep this up. he says his folks dont like me & believe i will push him to the point of doing something dangerous. so they have given him the justification to do something worthy of calling the cops since they all say that it is my fault for pushing him- by merely wanting to talk with him during his tantrums. so using reverse psychology on me, he has already blamed me for his lack of emotional control. so how can this ever change..
Dear Kim and Steve,
I hope you have gotten some rest and are feeling well.Also, I want to thank you for everything you put into helping others while also showing by example that you keep each other and your family first.
I am sitting here right now in a bit of despair, mad at myself and not really having much hope and perhaps the lack of hope is the correct view in this instance.
You may have read my previous post on the discussion pages.
I was divorced in January from a man that shows much of the behaviours you talk about. WE were married for 11 years much of it unhappy.I bought back from the looking glass but we were separated and I went away because it would be too painful to be across the street from him.
I have been back for a month and I live across te street.we are now civil. He had kissed me and wanted me to stay overnight with him and I did not because I want us to bond on other levels before we get physical. So I have been the one to initiate contact and he is receptive but not proactive. (Well that’s not entirely true. He stopped by with a gift that was a very helpful tool for my music and with money for groceries.) i cooked him dinner for his birthday or I just walk down the street to his house and talk while he waters the garden. Always saying his name in greeting showing I am happy to see him.
Yesterday, he said it was incorrect to have kissed me and that we are who we are and we just do not mix.I said I have made mistakes but am working on making changes in myself. Beside that he said I wouldn’t even be around if I didn’t live right up the street.
It hurt me but I didn’t show emotion. I asked him to be more specific about why it was incorrect but he couldnt. I didn’t try to convince or plead or anything like that-just said have a good day and left to get ready for work. I stopped by on my way to work and said I love him and I am not going anywhere.
the reason I am so mad at myself is that I went and gambled bill money. that is the addiction I developed to escape from the pain of the marriage. (I wish I had gotten your info sooner.)So I thought Kim might have some words of wisdom regarding my backsliding. Obviously I have to be further along in my emotional development to lead the way for him and to be strong enough. Overall, I have been doing well in setting goals. (small ones) and working towards them.
I want to respect his boundaries because he is trying to communicate. He also said I am trying to repair what might be irreparable. I asked him if he believed it was irreparable and he said he didn’t know. That was last week and he sounds like he has no hope or desire for that now.
When things got bad in our marriage I started traveling for work thinking he would miss me. He only got mean and it made me want to leave more because I didn’t know how to limit the abuse.
I realize I am rambling. I guess I am trying to just give you enough info.
I am working on the bill of rights which isn’t really applicable with him since we are not together. I have spoken to my priest to see if he would help if my ex got abusive. He said I could call on him and he would. but that also seems to be putting the cart before the horse right now. most people would say forget him it’s dead, move on but I guess I am still in denial. I am taking to a counselor who has been helpful. I guess I am just looking for some hope.
question for steve
well it looks like it’s too late. as i have been practicing from the workbook he left me.
he couldnt even communicate with me about it, just had a tantrum,& didnt hear from him for 2days. when i went over to see if everything was okay he started raging that i disrespect him, am ruining his happiness & that he can do way better than me. then he kicked me out. dont expect to hear from him anymore.
this tore me up. do you guys really look at us as not good enough & ones who ruin your good life?
id this a common way to get out of a relationship because you want to date someone else?
any response will be great here- thanks!
Hi Kim and Steve and thank you for your wonderful websites and products. I found you in January after the worst Xmas I have ever had with my NPD partner. Unfortunately his worst behaviour comes out around his family and particularly his daughter who hes sees almost as an extension of himself. She is also extremely difficult. He seems to want to keep us apart and there is always a major drama created if the three of us are together. His entire life is a ‘house of cards’ as you describe and he even tries to come in between me and my friends and because of my lack of confidence and that I dont speak his native language he can do so right in front of me…which leaves me feeling left out, stupid and isolated.
I have put a lot of the ideas in the workbook into practice and it worked so well initially but I have to say I find remaining loving toward my partner very difficult because of his sex addiction (affairs, fantasies, pornography) and I feel so lonely and unnapreciated. When he comes home after a few days ‘at work’ he just drinks and talks about himself or says nothing at all. I tried to limit his talk about himself and it did help but he doesnt have any hobbies or friends or any other interests at all. He is happiest when running others down but I asked him not to do that either.
We no longer have sex as I dont sleep in the same room as the neglect hurts me too much. I found sleeping in another room worked well for a while because (after I suggested it) he came down in the morning to talk and we really started to feel attached. As soon as I went back to sleeping in the same bed he began to neglect the relationship again. He uses viagara because of his drinking and it makes sex very mechanical and not at all loving (from my perspective). He did throw them away after I convinced him he really didnt need them but I know he ordered more which he keeps in secret for when he is away.
The other problem is that my partner is an alcholic. He is currently in rehab for that and sex addiction but refuses the NPD (although he accepted it before and joined your website). I am codependent and trying to rebuild my self esteem and confidence while he is away as we have no contact while he is in there. I want to go back to work full time but I couldnt cope with him and my work as well…he takes every ounce of energy as he is so emotionally demanding all the time.
Recently I disclosed these problems to his brother (these are the only people in his life: me, his brother and his daughter)and they live in other countries. The only other people are colleagues which he has made me swear not to ever tell about his problems. I have contacted the police because whenever my children come to visit he becomes enraged and very seperate. The police here said they couldnt help unless he did something which he mainly just shouts and calls me names and blames me for his continued addictions so no help there. He would never forgive me if I did and anyway he kicks me out of the house in a moments notice if I ever stand up to him and since its in his name I am very vulnerable as I have no where else to go.
I am completely isolated as I can only work part time and currently on holidays and no work for 6 weeks. This is because he tells me that we will have to move countries when he gets the ‘big deal’ for tax reasons so I cannot take a permanent job. I gave up my career and flat to move in with him.He said he would support me and marry me (but then said we could only marry if I didnt tell anyone including my mother so I had to say no). I have made friends in this new city after a long time but he sees them as potential conquests and just dominates the conversation and flirts with them. They all want me to leave him.
He travels overseas about once a week and refuses to maintain anything but one word txts and even says then I am too demanding. I tried to go on holiday without him but he called me constantly demanding to know who I was with (I was with no-one as I have some agoraphobia which has come up again in the last year or so). We travel a lot together but I usually have to remain in the hotel while he is out on business dinners etc which he always used to take me to but not anymore. He does insist that I do not go out on my own.
I have recently been longing for some company and I know it is my responsibility to organise that. I have purchased an online study programme. I have saved as much money as I can from what he gives me. But I feel tremendous guilt in seeing or even speaking to other people (including writing to you) as he says it is a betrayal.
I listen to codependence, anxiety, NPD, Gaia, on my computer to help me grow in confidence. I am trying to go back to the gym but he has been running down my body lately even though I know I have a great figure and have never had these comments in my life.
I love him very much. He is such a vulnerable person inside. My friends say he will never find anyone like me again but it doesnt ring true to me…actually I dont think he wants someone genuine…he seems to prefer one night stands and ‘porn girls’. But maybe the rehab will help with this.
He manipulates me with money, neglect, insults, but I cant speak to anyone who can influence him other than his brother and he ends up being manipulated into accepting his bad behaviour or explaining it away and attacking me too.
Ive wanted to write to you for ages. Im very scared of what he will say or do if he knows so its not my real name.
Thanks for any comments or words of advice. Ive just re-read this and realise how pathetic I sound. Actually I appear to everyone as super confident fun and intelligent but my reality is very different.
NPD has absolutley flawed me. Everytime I think I have a handle on my partners (or if you listen to him we would be ex partners) lies and manipulations he surprises me once again. He says we are finished but his actions are like he doesnt want to break up being nice working in around the house, having really good conversations etc. But this is only until I talk too much about our marriage or about apology or pinning him down to agree not to see other people while we go to couples councelling. Yes he agreed to go to couples councelling, then a few hours later reverted back to not wanting to be involved. I keep telling him speaking the truth about everthing free’s you. But he continues to lie about things that are not important and uses his families names in the lies. So last night he was reaing a text and I asked who it was from his answer was a family memeber so asked to read it, shock and surprise he gave me his phone. The text was not from his family but about a house he is buying. I confronted him about the reason for lying and his usual comment was/is I dont want to hurt you. What a joke when lying and then me finding out the truth is a double hurt and he cant get a grip of it. I then took the phone locked myself in the bathroom and read a couple of his text to his other women. He tells her he loves and misses her. Well then I rang her myself and told her as much as I could to warn her about him. I asked if she would meet me so I can explain better. I also told her that he will tell her that I am nuts. Actually I am positive that he tells her that I have problems and that is why he doesnt love me anymore. Well hopefully he gets this house and moves out. Though this morning he said might stay. Also he said that it will be a good thing us having a break and if I play my cards right he might let me come and visit him. Ha what a joke I said back its the other way around buddy. I will see how you behave and maybe I will contemplate if I will allow you anywhere near me. I know when he moves out I will cry and have told him that. But so what I am allowed to cry when I like and I hope it makes him feel uncomfortable. Then I will be able to start to get on with my life. If his new woman wont take on board what I tell her and to be carful to bad she will have to learn on her own. I just feel sad for my partner as he cannot heal his soul and become a real man instead of a lying manipulating scum. I feel it is too much of a challenge for him.
Thanks for giving me this opportunity to vent as it is hard telling other people about how much I love him as they all think Im nuts just like he tells peoople that I am.
Well, I took the big plunge after many many months of planning, praying and stomach issues, with God’s grace I left my NPD. I dropped him off at work and went back to our “room” in a house that we shared with his MOTHER. I had been asking for several months – no let’s make that 1.5 years when and how are we going to move. We are all aware of the verbal tactics that the NPD makes. I saw him for the first time in a week. I attempted to have a conversation with him that was just more of the same, useless and consistentlyu in circles. He never answers a question directly, just answers with another one..I felt as though I was trying to fix things again. It is incredible at how arrogantly prideful he is. This is why I left, so that I don’t have to live with his demeaning beavior. Now, to be strong and not fall for another guy like this.
I took the big step and left my NPD. Words cannot describe how free it feels to walk into my new place and take my shoes off.
My NPD and I have been together for 3.5 years and it has been horrible. I planned my move 8 months in advance so that I could be really prepared. I knew what his reaction was going to be, so I did not want to tell him until the last minute. I did finally mention my move to him and he proceeded to act like a 10 year old. Going to our friends to blast me for “leaving” him and how I was going to want him back. He is so smug and arrogant, I just want to smack his face so bad. It is incredible how he turned the whole move (we lived with his mother) as though I did something wrong to him. I can’t believe that I have to ask a grown man could we stop living at his mom’s house. I dropped him off at work, packed up and moved the same day.
I saw him last night for the first time since the move and he just did the usual NPD Q&A. I ask a question, he responds with a question. Just a major game. So done with him right now. I am wounded by NPD’s to the fact that I don’t even want to think about being involved.
I would like to read the poem “song of a male narcissist” I believe Steve wrote it. Could you please send it to me? I’ve gone through some very difficult times in the past several months. My ex is now getting married. Funny, in the 20 years we were together we never got married. He said I was after his money. He doesn’t have any money. I paid for everything. Anyway we never got married and now I see his hold on me was financial and he held the marriage over my head. But I have a very good therapist and am working on getting better at not being a co-dependent. Thanks, Jeanne
Hi all,
I am still working with my partner. I am trying hard every day, every moment to remember the four legged stool. I am finding the area of gap finding with him challenging. Currently, I am challenging him to be more affectionate, giving. As we’re constantly (in his mind, and I guess mine too) breaking up and making up, his showing of affection is seen by him as ‘making promises’ that I’ll ‘persecute’ him for later, when he decides to break up again. As in “why were you being affectionate/having sex/etc when you knew you were going to break up?”
We have been through so much in the last 2 of our 4 years together. I have made so many terrible terrible mistakes. And I still ocassionally do. I am prone to ‘snapping’ and being crazy back when he starts the cycle of breaking up. Right now, I’m doing my best to concentrate on myself and handling that, but guys, it’s so hard sometimes in the face of this behaviour. To be blindsided and faced with life-changing decisions (do I need to leave my job as he’s my boss) every few weeks is so tiring. I’m exhausted all the time, despite trying to eat healthily, get the right amount of sleep.
How can I get him to be affectionate with me? How can I help him trust me again after all the crazy things I’ve done? How can I trust him after all of this? How can I stop myself from being sad when I think of this and letting it affect my behaviour in present.
Though I’m moaning, I really surprised myself last night be creating a really fun, relaxed environment when he came home last night (we’re not living together, I was staying over – my request). We had a lovely time but again – no sex, even though I tried. I feel lonely and sad when I’m not in the moment trying to create something great. Even in the midst of insane work deadlines and too much to do!
Please someone help with any suggestions. I’m at the stage where I’m ready throw away everything I’ve built, everything I’ve done simply through exhaustion. I am known by everyone who knows me as the strongest person they’re acquainted with. So, please, if anyone has any thoughts or time, I’d really appreciate your company and support.
Hi Tracy,
I can sympathize with you about what you’re going through. I have decided this process of “self-discovery” only about a month or so ago. I have been married to a N for 8 years now. It wasn’t until very recently that the lightbulb finally went off in my head.
This work IS COMPLETELY exhausting!!! I mean think about it. You’re trying to figure out your own personal issues, you’re trying to figure out how to manage yourself in a way that supports healthy behavior in your N, you’re trying to live a life, work, balance it all and learn a totally new way of thinking. Of course we’re exhausted!
It’s really hard for me to remember the 4 legged stool. This is advise I wanted to ask Kim about. I mean how do you give affection and build attachment when you find out that your N has engaged in completely hurtful and inappropriate behavior? This is where I keep getting caught up… I have a good handle on snipping and letting go of my anger to get to a better more productive place, but then I have to look at him, support him and love him when I am hurt angry and honestly disgusted. That is HARD for me.
But… like you said you are a strong person! I can relate. I tell myself that this is my situation in life because I can handle it. I truly believe that “god” does not hand us any situation that we could not handle. It soesn’t mean it is easy. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt. But we are stronger than we have given ourselves credit for. You are going through a life changing experience. Keep on pushing through. It’s ok to take a “day off” from the constant emotional and mental experience and just be. I believe that anyway. To just recharge and remember that you are going through this journey to learn something very valuable to you in your life. Take a day if you can or a few hours to let go of the junk, let go of the emotional ties that bind you to the process. Let go and try to relax. Do you meditate? That is a great way to recharge.
Also, I ordered a book recommended by Kim called “Disarming the Narcissist” and it is a great tool at helping me focus on me. Stuff I needed to work on all my life. It really challenges you to think about your internal stuff that has kept you here stuck in this place for so long. It is quite liberating to acknowledge that you can let go of crap and junk that has no relevance to who you want to be now. Try that book it’s great!
I know exactly what you mean with the exhaustion. Again, think about what we’re trying to do here – it makes perfect sense that we would be so drained! Especially at the rate we’re trying to do it all. I don’t know about you but as soon as I got Kim’s guide I was on a mission!!! It’s like I couldn’t rest. Not with all this newfound information that I desperately wanted to apply to my life. I mean it was 24/7 reading, thinking, reflecting, journaling, studying, observing… It’s a process that I was so excited about I tired myself out pretty quick. And now I’ve come so far in such a short period of time but I’m tired! And doing so many things at the same time is REALLY hard! So maybe remembering it’s a process and not an overnight fix can help keep us balanced and centered and in the moment. I want to live in the moment, the here and now.
Hope you can find support in this
Try to unplug if you can and maybe that will help you recharge your batteries.
Good Luck!
Just to add, Kim and Steve and their advice have been the best thing I’ve ever stumbled on in my life. A million times better than therapy. Though my post above chronicles my woes, believe me, things are a million times better than they were before with my N partner – in my own head and in my interactions with him.
But this sort of process takes time, so please don’t take my moaning as anything but. I’m looking for ideas and people to converse with others who know this programme or follow this philosophy. There are real truths here and real results for the better – for the INDIVIDUAL as well as the relationship, ANY relationship in fact – not just those involving narcisissm.
I am so new to this also. I have tben trying some of the methods and they do work but then some don’t, like when I don’t want to have him raging at me, I still don’t know how to get away from him. I do feel better about myself though but wish I see him for waht he really is and not what I want him to be. I feel that is the main problem for all of us. We want what we want and don’t know when to give up. There must be other men out there that don’t need all this attention and draining energy to get along.
Thank you for the kind words of support Allison!
You are very right, I too go full steam ahead with this process as I could see immediate results and others which will take longer and require much more focus on MYSELF. This self-improvement is what will eventually lead to substantial and sustainable results. It is when I forget the elements of taking care of developing myself that things begin to sour.
Trisha, I am sorry you are so fed up. Please know that the process takes as long as it takes. Please know that we attract these individuals into our lives to unveil the parts of ourselves that need healing. I am not recommending that someone stay with someone whom they don’t want to. I can, however, honestly tell you that the step by step instructions Kim and Steve give on limiting abuse NEED to be followed to the letter.
Go to the police station during the day and speak to a Domestic Violence officer, start a file, find out from your local government any resources available for those suffering DV. Make a support network. Y
Sorry, posted above before completing!
The support network you build will be vital THE VERY NEXT TIME your partner rages. If you approach these people in the way Kim describes in her literature (being ‘professional’, un-emotional, logical and showing utmost concern for your partner’s well being and YOUR well being) you will be surprised to find that emotional abuse is a crime that is just as damaging as physical abuse. If you don’t find these people the first time,keep networking and find them. We have a free phone helpline here in the UK, and I remember the first time I rang. I shook like a leaf when someone on the other end of the phone confirmed that what I was experiencing was in fact abuse and that I was justified in taking action against it. I felt an immense lifting of a weight and an excitement about being somewhat supported, even via telephone.
You say you cannot escape your partner’s rages. The next time he does, if you follow the steps, you will be able to either calmly walk away and tell him you’ll speak when he calms down, OR you’ll be able to pick up a phone and show him that what he is doing is wrong and not sanctioned by our society or community. As Kim says, it only takes a few times to make the point.
The first time I did this, my partner immediately calmed and went quiet while I spoke in low tones to the officer who had my case number. He knew that I was no longer going to tolerate this behaviour. Unfortunatly, his first response on hanging up the phone was to physically pick me up and put me outside his home (and push me as he set me down – not hard, but enough to make the point). As I wasn’t expecting this amount of rage, I reacted and we argued and the point was somewhat diluted. I should have simply turned to him and said “I’ll speak to you when you calm down” and walked home. (it was very late and I’d had a few cocktails, so my thinking wasn’t as clear as it could have been). Next time, I’ll phone the police.
Don’t be afraid if he says “I can’t have a relationship that involves police calls and police reports”. Just say, with a genuine (NOT MEAN, SMIRKY) smile while “Well, we won’t have to do that again if there isn’t anything to warrant it”. He won’t like it at all, and may chew over it and push you away for a while. But in his heart, he will know that he’s backed himself into a corner and won’t have the smarts or the stamina to fight forever.
BUT YOU HAVE TO BE STRONG AND CLEAR! And forgive yourself if you don’t get it right all the time and backslide yourself. However, the more consistent you can be in your approach, the more trust you build. Remember, whatever this leads you to in your life, you will walk away a stronger person with better boundaries.
Stop protecting him from the consequences of raging. Stop protecting him over your sanity and your peace of mind. Start acting.
Good luck! We’re all with you!
Well here I go again on the npd roundabout. Last post my patner was not going to couples councelling and for the whole week it was off then on then off again. We ended up going and much to my distress he said that he just wanted it for closure but couples break up and get back together all the time. He then could not take any more of me saying he should stop bringing up my past that he had nothing to do with like when I was 17 or 18 I didnt even know him and he was just justifying his present behavior, so he walked out of the councelling session. On the way home he spoke about the session which the councellor said I should not but he brought it up. I ended up in tears (whats new) I then got changed and he asked where I was going and I replied I could not go anywhere in my state and I was going to hacksaw ( fixing and old bbq) He then knocked me over with a feather and said he wanted to reconcile???? I think he has hit rock bottom as he said he wanted me to show him what I have been learning as Im a smarty pants. Well we will see how he goes. Though he could change his mind again as he doesnt like any rules. Like stop texting that woman or any woman start building trust stop lying and decieving only time will tell and I will pray that he is given the strength to achieve these challenges.
Thank you so much Tracy, I will continue to follow the steps. Right now we are in the good period but I know what will be coming. I was wondering if anyone has problems with children coming a problem? He as two daughters from a previous marriage that he sees every Sunday. They now do not want to come over to my house for Sunday visits. Their reason is that my daughter had said something at school and they cannot forgive her and thus do not want to come over. This has caused much conflict. He is taking the attitude fine, he invites them over and if they choose not to come fine, he still comes over to my house and thus does not visit them. His mother has now gotten involved, (he lives with her) and has taken over his visitation. She picks them up and takes them home even when he isn’t around and at my home. It is like he is letting someone else do his work for him. I don’t know how to react, I haven’t said anything because to be honest when they were coming over they had such attitudes that a person never knew when it was going to be a good day or a bad one. I feel that they don’t want to bother with us and don’t respect us as a couple and I don’t blame them, but should anything be said and by whome?
Trisha
I have to thank Kim and Steve also.While I don’t know if the program will work,I amd just at the beginning of putting it into practice, I do know that I have regained my self respect.
My biggest issue is getting over the horrible things he has done and is still doing.(I managed to put a lot of them behind me).
I can’t seem to get over the pain and anger of him telling all sorts of people that I am crazy, insane, paranoid, mentally ill, hormonal, having a breakdown etc.(This is continuing) Then he encourage them – total strangers- to contribute their own nastiness about me.( they analyze me and decide I am feeling old, incapable, paranoid, and I’m a nobody and therefore jealous of him.(He doesn’t know I have copies of all the nasty e-mails)
So a couple of these “friends” of his went way to far, and I told them (via e-mail) to stop or I would investigate a suit for defamation. When he found out he said “How dare I say this to them?”
Obviously my response was how darte they do this to me, and how dare he let them and even encourage them.
But darn it hurts like heck.
How do I get past that hurt? And put the greet him warmly plan into effect?
Oh, there is another wrinkle that is difficult- my N gets almost all of his N supply over the internet- talking to all these “friends” (lots of women)via e-mail and Facebook. Generally I don’t even have access to his computer as it is pass word protected.
How is it that I get these people- who disrespect me so badly – how do I get them out of our lives (house) as Kim advises?
Hi Becky,
I too share your concern about getting the supply from the internet and social networking sites. I recenly found my husband’s name connected to a whole bunch of sites I’d never even heard of. He has actually blocked me off his facebook (and all my friends) so I can be kept in the dark… I too wonder the same thing about getting that out of our lives because my husband has just started a business and uses these sites as tools for networking and promoting the business as WELL as padding his ego in the process of reconnecting with as many people from his past as possible. It’s like he’s on a mission. I’d love feedback to that question too if anyone has it?????????
I’m glad that someone else has the same problem, although I am sure it is not at all unique in this day and age. The internet was made for an N and opens a whole new world of N Supply.
Fortunately my husband did not block me from FB- so for one woman that I knew he was coresponding with privately (and she was putting me down in private e-mails)- I just sent her a very nice comment asking how she was doing when she posted on his FB site.
She had a hissy fit about me responding to her comment and deleted him as her friend.
Whoa, I sure felt that was a triumph.I’m still laughing over it.(poor delusional whiny woman)
He jumped all over me of course. But really I had been perfectly polite- so what could anyone say?
One small step for man etc etc:>)
The others are more difficult, because I don’t have an easy(safe) go at them.
One(a total stranger to me) said a lot of vile things about me to him so I sent her an e-mail threatening a defamation lawsuit if she didn’t stop. I’m not sure it did stop her, but it sure made her think:>)( especially since she sent the vile e-mails about me on her work computer.)
Oh, we all know that when he finds out- he will be furious. Oh well, what can he do? I was very very careful not to defame him.
I hope it’s a pretty hard slap on the wrist for his bad behavior (all thewhile I am smiling benignly)- at least that is the theory.
Let me know if you come up with another avenue- since you apparently don’t have as much access as I managed ( at least until he figures it out)
Kim and Steve- please get spell check on this blog, I’m a horrible typist.
help!my bf of 7 years must be a N, but the last 2 years its getting worse.he is acting so weird!he breaks up with me, the next day he comes back saying he cant do without me!he is always criticizing me (my looks,my clothes,my behavior)but if you do that to him he gets defensive or insulted.he gets mad for minor things, next he says i am sorry.he tells me to be more assertive and tell him what i want or like, but when I do he calls me selfish or its my way or the high way or that i am nagging.he wont call me for days and if i complain the answer is I called you to talk to you and you are nagging.I call him and he says I call him too often, I dont call him and he is complaining why I didnt call him. He tells me to make suggestions on how to have more fun together or new places to go, and when I do, he is either too tired or too bored.I am always trying to please him and he is never satisfied.He has problems at work,I know and I am trying to be supportive, he has issues at home as well, he admitted lately that he is afraid of his father and his bad ways, but I am thinking he is starting to look like his father.I love him and I want to help him but it seems nothing I can do is ever enough.He is acting really selfish most of the time.I dont know what to do anymore.I am a very caring person, my friends all tell me to leave him because he is taking advantage of me and I too good for him, but I cant because I have seen good things in him,(he is caring, thoughtfull, compasionate, but to everybody else except me).His friends and co workers always tell of what a great guy he is and I cant understand he acts indiferrent to me?I had my share of mistakes in this relationship, chasing him when he needed space and all that, but I just wanted him to be nice to me and I needed answers about his behavior.I feel our time is running out.From what I read in your posts, I think he kinda keeps a distance from me because he doesnt trust and respect me as a strong willed person, he sees my good natured character as a weakness, maybe my sensitivities and insecurities remind him of his insecurities and he hates that.I don t know.I was always a very good nature person,calm and serious, I cant change who I am, why cant he accept that, and if he didnt like it why would he stay with me for so many years?If I was a weak person I wouldnt be around him for so long, struggling for this relationship to work.Please help!Any suggestions?sorry for the ranting I am going crazy here!
Kim and Steve,
I wish you all the best and I am sorry for the long post.You are my last hope.I forgot to mention, we are not living together, each one of us live with our parents, we’been talking about moving together for the last couple of years but always something comes up, I think our biggest problem is that he doesnt trust me enough and I am always afraid of his ever changing moods and bad temper.he doesnt have any close friends I can talk to, and I have no one to help me with this!
Hi all. I’ve been reading posts for some time now. I have been with my N BF for about 2 1/2 years. I don’t think he’s full blown NPD, but definitely on that track. He pursued me in the beginning because he knew I was going through a hard time in my life and then when he convinced me to move across the country, give up my business and all my friends (money too) he turned into a jerk. All the same stuff you all are saying. I got Kim and Steve’s book and the workbook and have been studying for about 2 months now and it definitely has turned my life around for the better. I’ve changed, so the situation has changed. I got myself back. However, there are still lingering things that he does like internet porn, flirting and sneaking around that I try to handle in an “adult” way, but find it really hard. Like Allison and others I am EXHAUSTED!! I’m trying to take time for myself, but I find myself catering to him sometimes because he’s jealous and doesn’t trust me (even though I’ve never given him any reason not to)so I still find myself explaining who I’m talking to on the phone and I haven’t been on the internet in quite awhile. I’m only on now because I told him to go do something with his daughter. Anyway, I’m having a problem dealing with when I actually catch him red handed doing something that crosses my boundaries. How am I supposed to react? I’ve tried the calm “we’ll discuss it later” approach and he actually likes it because he’s pretty sure I’ll forget about it later. I’m trying to be introspective about this and maybe I’m just being impatient with the process. He has definitely made improvements. I guess my biggest thing that I find myself dealing with is the sex/porn stuff. He witheld sex for a long time (control)because he knew I liked it. I act like I don’t care about it now (not true) and it’s taken the focus off of it, but I’m not sure if that’s the right thing to do either. He still goes on the internet. He’s also very distracted during sex. Any insight would be helpful. Thanks.
Congratulations on at least some progress. It is far more than I have accomplished.
But I understand how he would like the process of you walking away when he crosses your boundaries. My husband apparently thinks its weakness and then just attacks with more vigor.And since I told him I was not going to divorce him, he too thinks that is weakness and now threatens divorce at every turn thinking it will scare me into silence.That and he is conducting a very vile smear campaign. Oh well, I will deal with that too.
Remaining calm is difficult.But it sounds like you are doing a bang up job.
But you know what, thinking about it- is there anything wrong with letting him actually like the new process? I know it galls you- but you will bring the boundary thing up later I’m sure. So why should you deep down really care? Bring the issue up later and follow your program because it sure sounds like you are on the right path.
Good luck, and thanks for making me think too.
do es anyone have any advice for dealing with an N mother and do your books cover this?
Hi Bob,
I believe you can still use all of Kim & Steve’s material, but because your relationship with your mother is not a romantic one, you will need to modify the wording of many of their resources for your needs. For example in their “Resolving a Fight in Progress” change the words “partner” to “mother”, and “you want a divorce or separate” to “you never want to have anything to do with her again” and pencil in any other wording to suit a mother-son relationship.
Try this exercise first, print out the 12 points of “Resolving a Fight in Progress” and modify the wording to suit your Mother-Son relationship. I treat these 12 points like they are my 12 commandments not only in my romantic relationship, but also in everyday life. It is important to embrace these 12 points immediately.
In reaching out for help you obviously love your mother and want a loving healthy relationship with her. Start by breaking down the walls she, and maybe you also, have built up by disarming her (and you) each time you see her, greet her warmly saying her name and with a smile like you are genuinely pleased to see her. If you already do this, give her a warm loving hug as well. This has been one of the most powerful forces in overcoming the difficulties in my relationship. No doubt your mother is hurting and does not trust anyone, and she may not trust this at first, but persist and it will be rewarding.
Good luck and stay in touch,
Cheers,
CD Australia.
I have a question. What are the 12 points of “Resolving a fight in progress”? I really need these desperately. I am tired of the pattern that I am in with my partner. Even though we are not married I am so tired of what we have and thinking that I don’t need this partnership anymore. I feel it is starting to affect my health. I am willing to try all before saying goodbye. Please send this to me so I can start hopefully to fix things. Thanks Trisha
Hi Trisha,
The page you are asking about is here,
http://www.thelovesafetynet.com/The_Emergency_Room.html
Resolving conflict may take some time, all of the steps in our eBooks will contribute to a reasonable solution, I hope this page helps you.
Steve.
Hi Becky and Allison, so sorry to take so long to reply.
I guess the most obvious point to make here is to bring up our favourite topic of attachment.
If your b/fs are putting more energy into the attachments on the internet than they are into you, you have a serious problem that cannot be ignored. First step, is to build some rapport and trust with him. Show him that you care about him – and more importantly, care about yourself. You will be self-soothing and building your own confidence with the (sometimes) simple steps found in the Love Safety Net workbook.
Once you have built some trust and rapport with him, you can challenge him to move away from the immature and childish peer attachments that social networking sites provide. He is only putting energy into it because he gets a buzz from the attention, and feels that it is OK. From what you are saying it is not OK with you, right? If you have established a good rapport, you can show, (rather than explain with too many words) your disappointment with his reliance on the internet for attention.
This is never an easy step, and you may find that if you have taken a step forward, two steps back are just around the corner. Don’t give up too quick, if you fell it is worth it….
Kim and I have just entered the world of social networking, and it looks like it can be very demanding of one’s time. We are getting involved in social networking on a professional level, but I am not sure how it works on a personal level for couples, especially when there is little trust within the relationship.
This problem is a moving target for us, as social networking becomes more and more established. We have a few ideas on what steps to take to limit the juvenile behavior that your boys are displaying. Kim has made previous entries that have more specific details. These pieces of advice from Kim require courage and valor, as Kim has displayed in the past.
I hope you two have some success.
Steve
I have a twenty year old daughter that has been diagnosed with mild NPD. I found your site 9 months ago and ordered your books which have been very helpful. I have five children, three who are grown and on their own. We all spend alot of time together as family and are very close. I really am so concerned as why this daughter has NPD and none of the others do. She seems to have gotten it after a head injury, but to tell you the truth she has always been different from my other kids and seemed to have obsessive traits as a child. She is living at home after attending college and is working full time. She is also in a committed relationship with a truly wonderful man. I see her starting to give this poor guy the “treatment” and have given him your website address. He is reading and learning all he can so he does not “feed” her NPD. I am sick at heart and wonder if she will ever be really cured of NPD or will she just learn to control herself. She drives so many people who love her away by her constant demands for perfection. Why are my other kids ok and she has NPD? What the heck happened??? I ask myself this question every day. Do you have many parents asking you the same questions?
How’s it been going Becky?
I’m having a crazy couple of weeks. As soon as I needed to bring up something I had to discuss with my husband (not to his liking of course) he vanished. We had a great couple of days and then all of the sudden when I brought up a topic (after building attachment) of our financial situation and some decisions we need to make TOGETHER, he went MIA. He had a meeting that night and although we made a plan to discuss the budget, finances, work plans… he didn’t come home till after midnight. No call, no communication letting me know he wasn’t going to make it. Of course that really pissed me off but I did my best not to get angry, I did cry though. I told him it wasn’t ok, I told him he hurt me and it made me angry that he was disrespectful and inconsiderate. He did his best to try and provoke me by telling me didn’t do anything wrong… I walked away. That was a week ago. He has been testing me ever since. He has put me down, he has broken a committment to the children, he has done a number of childish things that are all a part of keeping us apart, pissing me off, and hurting me.
I felt like a different person 2 weeks ago… what happened? I feel like I can’t win. If this cycle goes on and on and the narcissist doesn’t change – how in god’s name can we work this program? When does it change? I’m weak all over again……
Glad to say I’m having a better day. I realize that not having the time in the day (with the kids at home and the N unavailable for assistance) to myself to read, review the program, journal, self-sooth – I am overwhelmed and emotionally charged. I just sat down to reflect what changed over the past few weeks and “time” is what changed. I had time a few weeks ago. The N was still behaving badly but my response to the bad behavior was definitely quite different. I had time each day to myself to do the work I needed to do. Now that my time is spoken for I have been less patient, more sad & started to become hopeless…
I am going to do my best to get back on track here and remember that it is a process.
Allison
Alsion,
Boy can I relate. I wonder if the program is just all about not getting mad or reacting. It seems to me but I myself have a hard time doing this. My boyfriend doesn’t trust anything I say. If I tell him I have to take my daughter to an eye appointment, and I do, do that, when I get home and tell him I am home he accused me of not going and that it took too long!!!! I am so frustrated and defensive. Am I doing something wrong when I defend myself or “prove” that indead I was there or just tell him the truth and if he believes something else just let him?? If someone can answer that question I will know how to react. Thank you so much.
Alsion,
Glad to hear you are doing better. I better start learning how to self sooth because no one else is doing this for me. Between my 14 year old daughter and my boyfriend it feels like they are a tag team. Do I just ignore the yelling. He even yells about my daughter and how I parent her. He doesn’t parent his own,(divorce) yet feels the need to yell about my daughter. I am already shaky on how to be a parent to a teenager and he is undermining my confidence I had or the little I did have. Any suggestions? Thanks.
kim and steve,
I have just bought your ebook, I had just the time to have a quick glance at it, and I would like to ask for a big favor. Could you please give us some advice on how to practice your guide into long term relationships (7 years), but not living together? your books are great but somethings are hard to do if you are not living together and you are not married or have kids, and you dont have access to his things or his whereabouts or his friends.Any advice would be useful.Please help!I am desperate.I feel like I am losing my boyfriend to his N.
Dear Kim and Steve,
or he is completely bored of me!(sigh).Any help would do.Thanks
Hi Trisha,
How are things going? Sorry… it’s so hard to get time, I haven’t been able to respond. I just re read your post about the “proving” where you are. I would consider that you might not even have to get into it with him. If he chooses not to believe you after you’ve given him a logical ezplanation he probably is just trying to provoke you into anger and frustration which might cause you to lose your cool and therfore he can take the blame off of himself and use you as the scapegoat of his anger.
I’m just getting back on track with this after a terrible week last week! It takes 2 to fight, and most likely he wants a fight. If you keep your cool and remember your magic scissors and try to use the language with yourself like, “I’ve told you where I was, if you choose not to believe me that’s fine, but we don’t need to go back and forth on this issue.” or if he starts yelling at you because you’re not letting him fight you, “I feel afraid when you yell at me that way, I’m going to leave the house (with your daughter if she’s involved) and let you have some time to cool off.”
It is LARGELY about learning NOT to give in to the tantrums. I know this is hard, especially when you feel that someone is wronging you, or really making your blood boil by saying crazy things which seem just to be said to piss you off. You need to learn how to talk to yourself about how it is NOT you, he has a problem and is trying to use you to take the emphasis off of himself. DO NOT PROTECT him by being his scapegoat.
This is still very difficult for me. Especially with the stresses of life, (as if that’s not enough). I lost it a week ago and felt lost. I realizes that without time to work “my program” and personal development I began blaming him again and getting really mad at teh way my life is going.
I was able to regroup with help from my support network and get some time to myself to recharge. You need to remind yourself constantly of how you are in charge of your life, and you can make changes that will make you feel better each day.
You will not be perfect, you will fall and question whether or not you want to get back up. But you can make your life better (with or without him in it). Now is the time to build strength and courage. If you’ve been in this relationship you already know you have courage and strength! Now you just need to use it for yourself!!!
Try to walk away from his abusive comments try not to feed into his constant questioning of you and your where abouts. This is a distructive pattern that most likely only leads to your abuse. Try to leave the house. Try to do it while honestly telling him that you care about him but you do not care to participate in the abuse because it in not productive.
I have already seen my husband behave differently through a couple months of reminding him I will not engage in abusive and intimidating confrontations. I don’t have it down to a science, and he certainly is misbehaving when he feels stifled; but I FEEL BETTER! I FEEL STRONGER! I am aware of a whole new situation. I don’t walk away from the fight feeling hopeless and depressed. I don’t question my sanity or what I did wrong. I don’t cry all day and wonder what I did to deserve this A-hole treating me like trash. When I walk away I feel in charge of my destiny. If he chooses to hurt me afterward because I won’t engage him in the fight (which is where we are now) I know what’s going on. I still feel proud of myself because I know I’m going to be ok. NOT EASY!!! At all. But worth every minute I get stronger and gain my self esteem back!!!!
Good luck,
Allison
Oh Allison,
I wish I could put you in my pocket and have you coach me on what to say and how to say it!!! Thank you for you wisdom. It is hard not to fight, and he is very driven when he wants to fight. He will say anything to get me going. I will take your words to heart, in fact I will reread your comments to get them in my head. I just hate it when I second guess myself and wonder if I am really the problem. I know I am not but still at the time and after the war I sit back and think and wonder what now. Thank you so much, you have helped me. Trisha.
Awesome Allison!
Isn’t it the most wonderful feeling – beginning to believe in yourself by forgiving, loving and accepting yourself again? It is so empowering! You bought tears of joy to my eyes! You are clearly demonstrating how much you have learned so far, and how you are letting go of pointless guilt, blame, anger and resentment in the face of adversity by turning your strength, energy and focus towards achieving a healthy outcome for your relationship and your family, all the while realising there may be setbacks (which are really opportunities for us to get centred and back on track again as you have just done!).
What a great example you are setting for your daughters, they will be witnessing and learning from your growth in strength, courage & hope!
Over the years I have been collecting, or creating my own, what I call my valuable “Precious Pearls of Wisdom” which help keep me on track, and I would like to share three of them today with you, and anyone else who may find them as valuable and empowering as I have.
“I am not powerless over myself, and the way I act and react. This is, in itself, a power that can work miracles in changing the attitudes of others.”
Anonymous
“What can words do to me unless I take them to heart?”
Anonymous
“I lived in an emotional prison with bars made of guilt, anger, resentment, self-pity and bitterness until I realized that my prison unlocked from the inside and I held the key.”
CD
Well done, Good Luck & Stay in Touch,
Cheers,
CD, Australia
Your quite welcome Trisha!
I am glad to be able to provide some help and encouragement! God knows I reach out for it desperately when I need a reminder myself! The truth is some days you can feel like you’ve really got a grip on it, and other days (which can be the very next day!) you wonder if you’ll make it through the next battle without completely crumbling and losing yourself all over again… At least in the beginning I suspect.
Just hang in there, and be good to yourself. Forgive yourself when you make a mistake, and get back up and try again. Love yourself always and try to learn new ways to get what you want and need. When you start to reject his tantrums regularly (although he might behave badly due to his confusion of the different reaction) you will find you get a little piece of you back. A small but very real bit of self respect and strength that you will build on day by day. As you grow to feel more confident that you can use the “magic scissors” regularly you will get an amazing feeling of satisfaction with yourself and pride in your massive accomplishment. Just think of all the years you’ve spent waiting for someone else to make it right… for me it was since my first relationship as a teen!!!! Just the little bit of responsibility I gave myself to take charge and make myself happy has made WORLDS of change.
I KNOW it’s really really hard, especially when you have someone provoking you and taunting you – it’s the worst temptation and you want the release of screaming out loud to “LEAVE ME THE FUCK ALONE!!!” Trust me, I know, all too well. You are stronger than you know, you can learn in the moment to let it go. EVEN though it seems impossible, you can do it. And you will be so happy that you did!
I’m sure I’ll need your support at some point and I’m sure you’ll be there to do the same for me and others. We are all here for eachother – Thank god for that!
Allison
Thank you CD!!! I love being able to come here for support and encouragement. And I love being able to return the favor to others. And I LOVE KIM & STEVE for making this possible for me.
Thank you for sharing your “precious pearls of wisdom” they are very thoughful, so true, and definately apply to us here!
It means a lot to me that you have pointed out my effort and benefit it will have for my children. That is the most important thing to me! I really want to be the most positive role model I can – and for a long too many years I simply fell short. I feel very thankful and hopeful that I can turn it all around
THANK YOU!
Allison
I was just reading my email post from the lady who said she wishes she could put Kim in her pocket.
I’ve been married to a Narcissist for 23 years now, and I can tell you that I pick my battles with him. He generally tries to set me off about the stupidest things, and then he gets upset if I don’t react in anger, yet when I do blow up, he will say “calm dowwwwn…why do you have to get so angry all the time?” Unfortunately, my children have seen years of this stuff and they tend to join with him in his attacks against me. It is sometimes hard to really like my own daughters because they are so deceived by him against me.
All I know is, no matter how he hates it, DO NOT REACT to him. Simply remember that his brain is misprogrammed at this time, and, due to “faulty-wiring” he can only behave according to the “chip” that he had inserted years ago. In my case, this means I need to see my husband as a scared, upset little 7-14 year old. Difficult, unfair, but TRUE
Hi all!
I bought the book “Disarming the Narcissist” by Wendy T. Behary. I have to say it was brilliant for helping me discover some of my own issues and contributions to the dysfunctional relationships that I have had (before I ever met my husband) for my entire adult life….
This book really started me on my way. And has totally challenged me to recreate my thoughts, ideas, and reactions as related to the here adn NOW!
Trisha, I suggest you pick it up. It’s not a huge book that’s hard to read. You’ll probably find you don’t want to put it down!
Just a suggestion
Allison
Allison,
Thank you for the suggestion!!! I have already written the title and author down for my next trip to Barnes and Noble. I love to read and this will I am sure add to my information on how to deal with the issues I am facing. I do need to get strong though and not get so dissappointed in the set backs. Right now things are great and I feel myself falling for the nice person even though I know in my heart it will not last but I still have that hope and that is what gets me in trouble every time. I feel like a fool for even thinking it could (the nice part) last. Hopefully I will learn from this book how to not have so many events of the up and downs. Thank you, you give me hope and I don’t feel so all alone. I do have a daughter that seems to be learning from him (bad part) and between them I sometimes feel beaten down. But I am stronger than that I will survive!!!
I love you for all your comfort and will be there for you also.
Trisha
Can anyone help me? After a series of failed relationships, and having been on my own for six years, I thought I had met the man of my dreams five and a half years ago. I was then 54 and he was 50. After about 18months I started to realise that things were not right, but couldn’t leave him, even though he would often treat me disrepectfully and I suspected he was seeing other women. My suspicions have now been confirmed that he is a cheat, and in desperation I researched until I discovered Narcissism and Codependency and realised the awful truth that this describes us perfectly. I have tried to leave several times, but always break down. He has now promised me that he wants to change, but I realise that, if I want the relationship to continue (at least for now) I am going to have to implement your programme, and that I cannot expect miracles. I have asked my Doctor to refer me for psychotherapy (I know my man wouldn’t entertain the idea as he is so much smarter than any therapist!) as I realise I need help for my own codependency as much as he does for his narcissism. My biggest problem is that we don’t live together, although we see each other almost every day. This has suited me somewhat, although it has obviously suited him more as he has so much freedom to cheat if he wants to. I have confronted him with his cheating and he has admitted everything and begged me to forgive him. I have told him that I won’t leave him, but obviously won’t tolerate him being unfaithful. My question is, how do I impose consequences if I discover another affair when I have no access to his computer (I know he visits porn sites). Is this advice only for married couples or people who live together? I’m 60 now, and don’t want to start seeking another relationship. He has many good points and we are very close in many ways. Any suggestions?
To Linda,
I can relate to a few of your situations, such as the time together, not living together, the age and even the good points. I have even gotten so far as to question my own self and if I am really right or sane. I as of yet I don’t suspect him of cheatiung but you never know. So my words to you are not so much to give you answers but to ask yourself some questions about what you really have. Have you ever looked around at other women and seen the difference in some of them, such as their faces and expressions? I don’t care how old a person is or how they age but some women just have a certain happiness about them and I feel that is due to a happy union. I know of women who are in unions where the husband or boyfriend cheat, others know, they even know!!! But, they still are with them and their posture, facial expression and even how they act with others tell the story of what they live with has done to them. I want for myself to be one of the women who look happy, and content even if that means not having someone because the stress of someone who is like that can be damaging in so many ways and I am sorry it is just not worth it. Also, I feel that it is just not up to one person to care about what is going on in a union. Isn’t it better if both are involved in making it the best it can be, rather than letting one person always shoulder everything, take things and be the better person but still keep taking the junk just to say they are with someone they love?? If children are around that is different, but if like myself it is just the two of you, why not have a union that is good for both? Please write back to me, someone, maybe I am getting fed up and tired of trying.
Steve, can you help with this…
ANYONE, I could really use some feedback!!!!
Question… ok, so my husband has struggled over the past year (and then some) with finding the right business opportunity to earn cash. Our financial situation is a massive struggle and our daughter who goes to private school is about to lose the opportunity ot stay there if we don’t figure it out. I have recently began to study online income opportunities to help. He continuously comes up with new ideas (I just counted over 15) without following through on any of them enough to make real progress. He obviously has huge issues of instant gratification. But how do I talk to him about my opposition to the latest idea because I’ve had enough. He doesn’t believe I have a say WHAT SO EVER in how he conducts his business because it’s HIS career and separate of me. I believe he affects our family ever time he wastes time and money and doesn’t follow through.
HOW can I talk to him sensibly? Is it all all possible… what do I do? Do I just watch him do this until he gets it right? Do I do my best to get myself back into work (I haven’t worked for 5 years) and try to keep us alive? Do I ask someone else to talk to him? I feal that he will go through this ritual until it all comes crashing down and we lose our house, and all the rest of it. Help. I NEED some advise here. He won’t listen to me from the position of a caring and concerned partner. He won’t even listen to some of the other positive forces in his life who have told him to pick a focus and make it happen.
I’m tired of fighting this. I can NOT win the battle over what is reality and what is not here.
Please give some advise!!!
Allison,
You could have signed with my name because it is identical to my situation. I have been married over 30 years and we have floundered and lived in unbelievable circumstances while I “supported” him with his ideas. Everything you said fit ours, I had no say because it was his business, although boy did he let me do the accounting and tax work and grunt clean up work on his home remodeling projects, and on and on. In the end, he told me that I never supported him in anything that he has done or tried, (Not even when I didn’t balk at the 700,000 of debt he has gotten us into.) The message I want to give you, is that if he is like my man, you can NOT count on him changing. I wanted to stay home with my babies and so I lived in the depths of (I can’t even describe what I lived through) so that I could raise my babies. And that was invaluable, but when the youngest one was old enough I have gone to work and given us the security and grounding that our family needed. He still scoffs my efforts, but at least now I have car insurance and food on the table regularly. I had to provide it because he couldn’t or wouldn’t. You have to decide, but I would NOT bank on him changing.
Cathy
In my case, my husband was into “get rich quick” schemes, and would spend money on every pamphlet that came through the mail promising riches! Soon we were in debt past our eyeballs and are still digging our way out of the debt!
He was so convinced that he was the next millionaire-to-be, but all it did was cost time and money and energy. Eventually he went back out to a “real” job, thank GOd for that!
Now when he gets all excited about some new home-based biz, my feelers come out and I look at him and say “FORGET IT!” (generally, I was the one who was responsible for making these businesses work and when they didn’t, I was also the one to blame for it. no thank you!)
Thanks Cathy & Laura for the feedback! I don’t know how to approach this right now though… what do I say to him to keep us from going down this path. If I fight too hard he lashes out and misbehaves, if I support the ideas he fails anyway (thus feeling worse, I’m sure). I want to do the right thing. I am a stay at home mom and don’t have the basis to earn his “respect” as I’m not bringing in any cash, and realistically can’t (significantly) any time soon anyway…
How do I address this right now?
Thanks!!!
OK Allison, this is something I wish I had known YEARS ago. I have power. I cowed when he went into his violent mode and blame mode and retaliation mode. After I stopped taking it I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears. He backed off. Kim’s methods work great. Don’t put up with it, zero tolerance, be kind but say the dialogue, “I won’t have a conversation with you right now when you are trying to bully me” or whatever version you come up with. Then, stand up for what you feel is right. Go ahead and say no to his ideas, be firm and say we are not doing that. When he lashes out, and he will by the way, you tell him you won’t tolerate that behavior. You have the power and he will give it to you, watch this work, it is amazing.
The textbooks say that you don’t have any basis for his respect because you are not bringing in cash. This is the textbooks. You need to know in yourself that you are worthy or respect and then demand that. You bring in PLENTY or worth to your family staying home and giving care to your family. That is worth ten times what any paycheck brings. You know that, you remember that, and zero tolerance for any action that demeans you or doesn’t give you the respect, consideration that any human being deserves.
Now go to the mattresses!!!
Cathy
Although I don’t have a definite answer for you about what to do regarding your husband’s endeavors, I will assure you of something.
Don’t get down on yourself for not having a job and cash coming in. If your husband is anything like mine, if you worked outside the home, he’d be complaining that you weren’t home to take care of him and the house. If you don’t work, he’d complain about you not bringing in money. If he’s a true N, there isn’t much use in falling over yourself trying to please him.
Find a hobby, a support group, some friends, and take care of YOU…seriously. Just stay stable yourself because he’s going to do whatever he’s going to do regardless…his brain is just geared that way.
perhaps the fine couple that sponsors this group could give better advice than I did. I imagine so.
Thanks again Cathy & Laura!!!
I know what I need to do. I realize that my biggest issue here is fear. I am afraid of what he will do to retaliate against me, against my firm disapproval of a “new” money making opportunity. I know he will lash out agianst me – the last time this happened (a month or so ago) he decided to break a commitment and contact someone (a N supplier) he agreed not to. So I’m afraid of how the ball will drop on me. It appears that I am trying to avoid it by pretending that going along with something that makes no sense for our family (him included) will maybe be ok.
Thanks for the quick dose back to reality! I will stand my ground, as I have EVERY SANE right to. I will not tolerate being bullied, or put down. And the best I can do is prepare myself for however he plans to lash out agianst me. I will remind myself that I can handle it, I have before. And I will practice work on how to address what to do when the boundaries get crossed… because I know that’s what I’m in for. But I also know I will be ok, I will be strong and I will not waiver
Thanks ladies,
You really helped!!!!
xoxo
Hey Allison!
It was nice hearing such a positive reply from you here. I just finished answering a question about psychoanalysis regarding childhood/adulthood, so it was a nice reprieve to come read something so wonderful after all that intense focus!
(I’m working toward my Bachelors in Psych)
Remember, Allison, we are here for you if the stuff hits the fan. I will also be praying for a favorable response of him to you. I know what you are going through. Keep us updated, hon.
Blessya,
~Laura
I really need some advice.I have been listening to your radio show I tried to go to your blog but cannot get into it.
My husband of 31 years and I have been separated for the last 10 years. He has come back several times to want to start again but keeps leaving. He was living in Mexico and now he is in the states and unfortunately has gone back and forth. There have been immoral behaviors. Right now he has been here in the states about a year and a half. He was in the home at first and right now is renting a room. we are talking and go out together once in a while. He is in the states because he has to be. He didn’t come to be with his family. I would like to heal our marriage. this is not his goal. His goal is to eventually go back and live with this other woman (who is there now). Anyway, sometimes we see each other and we can get along fine together. Since he left he has been better verbally. I put some limits on that. I also told him that I like seeing him and spending time with him but I wnat something more and he is interested in intimacy but I want more of a long term commitment. Not just a casual thing. I mentioned we have an opportunity right now to correct some of the wrongs from the past but of course he is not interested. We still have 1 child at home who is 15. But he really doesn’t seem to be concerned that his immoral behavior has hurt his family. I do not want to enable him but at the same time i am not sure how to handle this. For ex sometimes he asks if he can come to check email. or borrow the vacuum. It seems for other things it is convenient for me to be his wife and he refers to me as such but behaves as if he didn’t have one. There really aren’t to many people here for us to turn to or people that he is concerned if they know about his behavior there are times when he tells what he is doing and doesn’t bother him what they think of it. Also the macho culture of our countries doesn’t help. How do I handle this since he is not in the home I don’t think talking to this other woman will be helpful. Especially since she is a widow, knows he is married and her children are grown. My teenage daughter has a lot of anger towards his constant abandoning of the family. I also told him it is wrong what he is doing it is hurtful to us and it doesn’t seem to bother him. What is the best way to handle this situation?
Allison,
Hadn’t read this blog much until this evening, but reading your earlier postings on surviving the “cycles,” I wanted to share some humor from today. Hope it helps you on a rough patch.
About 7am – I responded to an question my husband posed on Monday that I avoided then because it was almost time to get my boys from school. I answered with the caveat that the boys were downstairs eating breakfast, and I had a lot to finish to get them out this morning. First I got the 20 questions interrogation and then got the “there you go walking away,” a few times before I finally did leave. Unfortunately this was supported by my eldest (6) saying repeatedly “daddy, I need to go into school.” (As we rushed out, we got the gratuitous “do you always have to be late?”)
I returned home, to drop the toddler off and get something for the preschooler before his school began. I got pulled back into the discussion (loosely about finances – expenses needing to be less than income – not the issue because we have no real financial worries) Because we were talking in a reasonable manner, I tried to listen and did hear some of his valid points along with the other stuff. I let the discussion go too long (again the comments of my walking out if I tried to walk out, followed by the announcement of the time – telling me I was going to be late getting the 2nd one to preschool.) My nanny/housekeeper was arriving at this point and chuckled as she overheard (unknown to my husband) the last few remarks. I left for drop off and work rehashing in my mind how I need to cut the discussions off sooner, and just leave despite the “your walking away again remarks.”
I sent my husband an e-mail later in the day – stating first where I did hear his valid points, and that I was changing my behaviors, but also setting out some of the points from my bill of rights (behaviors which I already see he is decreasing as I am stronger.)
When I got home this evening there was a detailed outline of the time my nanny spent the past 1 1/2 weeks with the kids and the time she spent cleaning. My husband has decided I was not doing a good enough job managing her time and effort etc, and not setting the cleaning standard high enough. He has been “fixing” this with her over the past few weeks. She shared this list with me, and told me that when she said she couldn’t do all of it that he said maybe we should hire a separate house-cleaner.
The chuckle for me was then, but also when he came down later tonight to say the same thing to me (along with how I should have hired someone to essentially tutor the boys months ago. Both comments were given in the context of how I can not manage my time nor anyone else’s – there is a small kernel of truth in my own time management weakness) Wasn’t this the same person who was fussing just this morning about how we need to make sure our expenses are not greater than our income, and how I would be the one not to recognize this until it was a crisis ??? Did I miss something from that conversation ??? Did I miss some increase in our income during today ??? Perhaps I need a butler, a gardener and a chauffer as well ???
I could listen and not respond because I could see more clearly what were my weaknesses and what was his fussing and his own internal stress. I can see that the cycles are still going on, but I can see things are better. I share this detail because I trust this site is relatively private and anonymous. Humor helps a lot.
MR
MR,
Was your husband diagnosed NPD or is he just unreasonable and “flip-floppy” in his decisions? Just curious.
~Laura
Hi Laura & MR,
Laura, I also have my bachelors in psych… Maybe that’s why I’m so drawn to understand my own situation. It gives me great insight into human behavior – although I’ve always been really interested in it anyway. I think it’s also a downfall because I tend to over-analyze behavior and where it all comes from. That’s a big part of my problem. I guess I figure if I can step back and see the flaws in myself and want to do better it becomes impossible for me to accept the fact that others won’t do the same. I mean it’s to become a better person, right?
MR…
Good for you that you were able to see humor and step back and collect the situation without reacting in an unfavorable way. I’m actually in the midst of a situation right now. I want to go away for the weekend and he doesn’t want to. Financially I know we shouldn’t. Emotionally, I know that he will make excuses to spend $$$ on things he finds of value. So I’d rather not sacrifice a family excursion that we have gone on for every year since my daughter was 1. It’s a very special tradition to our children and to me. He could care less. Also, we shouldn’t be spending money on recreational things right now. But that won’t stop him from buying a new cell phone, buying new hardware for the computer (that he hasn’t even installed yet) and buying information that clogs his brain and keeps him from addressing reality. I know I should be responsible but this is a big priority to me, and it’s of value to my children. I have NO PROBLEM making the sacrifice. What I do have a problem with is the fact that he will not make the sacrifices as well. So when I’m sitting there in a week or two after giving up something important to me and he goes out to buy whatever and tries to explain how “it’s different” or it’s an “investment that will bring a return” or it “wasn’t as much money” I will FREAK!
I’ve been through this for years. So I discussed it with him in a calm and supportive manner. I told him that I would give up the vacation, and we would sit and pick the things that WE were going to cut back on. Like the constant lunches for networking, and the landscaper that we don’t have the $ to pay, and the office space that he rents and doesn’t use (so he can look professional – I can’t believe I bought into that…), and those other things that add up that we do NOT NEED! He refused, flipped out on me, and got really mad and started telling me how I am not helping financially.
He completely avoided the conversation about the finances (which we actually do need to have) and decided to make it about how this probelm is me never giving up anything and me never working to earn money, and me not understanding all he does and is trying to do.
I was again blind sighted. But I tried not to indulge him and I did say we can talk later when we can stay on topic… He then proceeded to tell me, “Fine, book the room.” Because he isn’t going to be told what he can spend his money on.
Sometimes I just want to shake him out of this delusion. But I can’t. It’s so hard. Especially when you are trying to make healthy, positive choices and for the good of your family and one of the most major players won’t let you help, won’t let you in, won’t let you do what you know to be right and good. He sees me as his biggest opposition, not his biggest support – and that’s what I’m trying to be.
This of course is aftermath of me standing my ground after he posed yet a new career opportunity. I explained that I do have a right to have a say in what he does when it directly affects myself and our family. He is very angry with me lately that I am not on board with his latest idea. He is also upset that I have presented him with a good arguement, that he is trying to deny.
Anyway… what craziness. I hate the competition!!! If I can’t do this you can’t do that. It’s terribly annoying, and hard to tolerate. I wonder when Steve decided to address himself as a N. And what that looked like. I feel like I’ll never get there. And I think a life of this rollercoaster bullshit might not be what I’m in for…
Allison, you post reminded me of the fact that I can absolutely NEVER sit down face to face with my husband to have a serious conversation.
First of all, he has NO eye contact whatsoever or stares above my head to the ceiling as if I’m up there while he’s talking to me. Very IRRITATING!
Secondly, he just can’t sit still long enough to HAVE a conversation and will cut any attempt of talking, off at the onset of it.
I used to become very frustrated when therapists, friends, and others would say “well, during your husband/wife talking time, ask him such n such…” I’d be thinking “yeah right…”talking time?” I’d LOVE to be able to sit across a table at some restaurant in the dim lights, holding hands, just talking and connecting. He never could, we never have, I’ve always wanted that.
~Laura
sorry, Allison…I meant to say “your post” not “you” post.
Hello Everyone,
I have been on and off with my boyfriend now for about 2 1/2 years now and although we fell very in love with each other it has always been rocky. During a very difficult period I began searching the internet for help and I found this website and like many others am very thankful that I did. The behaviour you describe sounded scarily similar to that of my boyfriends and I found new confidence to know that it wasn’t my fault but there were things that I was doing that were not helping. We have many issues to tackle he likes to gamble and take cocaine, he thinks that he has control of these things but I have noticed a pattern that he will pick a fight with me when we are spending an evening together, usually at his house as I live with my mother, so either I have to leave or he throws me out so he can go and do these things. It always then a row that lasts for days and one of us, usually me ends up telling the other it is over. Anyway, recently we have had a few good weeks and I have been avoiding the fights, biting my lip at his not-so-nice comments and turning potential situations into lovely evenings. But I have found a problem that I am really struggling with. The other night we went out for dinner and drinks with my best friend and her new boyfriend, had a lovely time and went back to his to stay. When we got home he decided to be in a mood but I tried not to let it bother me. We went to bed and his coldness warmed into getting intimate. About 15 mins in and I start to feel quite unwell and stop and go to the bathroom feeling very sick and dizzy. I come back in to the bedroom and say ‘I’m sorry, I don’t feel very well’ and open the window to get some air. He turns away and says ‘Great. My girlfriend tells me she feels sick when I’m having sex with her. How’s that supposed to make me feel?’ I was so upset with what he said I snapped ‘sorry I wasn’t aware that I had to consider your feelings when I feel so ill.’ He then left the room to go and sit in the other room to watch tv and laugh very loudly with his flatmate. I was so hurt I called him in and started to cry and ask him why he was treating me with such contempt and he laughed and I lost my temper and he told me to leave. He stood and watched whilst I cried packing my bags struggling because I felt so ill and worthless. He said he was watching me in case I took anything!! This is not the first time he has done something like this. About a year ago, he was going away for a while for work so we were spending the last weekend together, we were having a few drinks and having a lovely time then we started kissing and things became heated. I started to feel a bit woozy from the wine and stopped to get some water. He started to get angry and upset with me saying how he was really getting in to it then and I’d ruined the moment. He made the rest of the evening and the weekend horrible because in his words ‘I ask one thing from you and you can’t even do that for me.’ Am I wrong to be so hurt and upset? Is it acceptable to be horrible to your partner when they become unwell during intimacy? I am finding it extremly difficult to remain civil to him when I feel from the way he acts as it feels like all he cares about is the sex and not me as a person. I don’t know if I can continue to be intimate in a situation like this I don’t feel safe. Any advice or opinnions on this situation would be great. Thank you.
Claire
Thank Goodness I have found you all!! It is like reading my life story over and over again. I ordered the ebook today and am waiting for payment to process. I hope to share with you all and learn from you all as time goes on. -bj
Clair,
I have had that EXACT same phase said to me so many times about sex ‘I ask one thing from you and you can’t even do that for me.’ You know it’s not wrong of you to tend to your illness over his “needs”. No more than it’s wrong for me to think sex should be a two way street not something I do only for him.
I haven’t found a great way to deal with this yet other than to know it’s him and not me. I have become very good and not allowing him to drag me in to his crazy world. It still gets to me and it comes out in the form of depression.
Good luck!
My turn… My boyfriend and I have been together off and on for 20 years. We have an 18 year old daughter born 11 months after he and his then wife had a son. I found out later that at that time I was one of TWO mistresses. We eventually parted when our daughter was 2 and I didn’t really hear from him for 11 years.
Then like a knight in shinning armor he reappeared divorced and ready to have the life we had always talked about… 6 months later we were living together and for the first time I saw the mask really come off. I realized what his wife had been living with all those years (23!)
So we’ve been together and apart twice now since that reunion. It caused horrible disruption in everyones lives when I walked out on him. We have now been back living together for over two years.
Over the years I have made great strides in not allowing him to push my buttons. He has come miles in controling the fits of rage. Unfortunately his lack of trust and jelousey continues to be a major source of trouble for of us. I am still “bad” becuase I had affairs and cheated on him when I was his mistress or we were seperated. (His words) He of course is perfect and none of his past matters including the recent internet affairs I have busted him on.
So here is the current drama… My well meaning friends purchased a 5 day cruise for me about a year ago. Half cause they wanted me to go and I was unemployed and half because I think they knew it would force something between Louis and I. I never told Louis. The cruise is Oct. 17th. So I lied and told him that my friend had bought it for someonee else and now that person couldn’t go so it was a free trip for me. He of course through a fit and says if I do he is leaving and moving out. We are now at a Mexican Standoff with me saying I’m going and him saying he is moving out BUT we are playing house nicer than ever and having a blast. GO FIGURE!! I want to back out on the trip but I don’t think that is right the thing to do. I’m not ready to give up the realtionship either… Thoughts??
Claire, this may sound simplistic, but RUN while you can. He’s only a boyfriend, not a spouse. You deserve better. Wish I would have run in those days too.
HI Claire,
I approved Laura’s comment to highlight my feelings on this.
As humans, we have an only a limited understanding of our own intuition. The biggest problem Kim and I face with our work is that we know that many people like Claire have a ‘feeling’ that they have something of a connection with their abusive partner. This deep bond is almost impossible to ignore.
Also, Kim and I are of the opinion that running away will not resolve the conflict. I completely see that Laura’s comment is compassionate and made with the best intentions, but a larger question opens up, i.e. What next?
Running away from this problem will not resolve Claire’s confusion and sadness. This guy sounds like Trouble with a capital T, so the option of ending the relationship should definitely be on the table, but it is not as simple as running away.
Kim has a chapter on ending a relationship if Claire feels it is the right thing to do. Claire, you need to be ready to move on completely, and part of that process is learning to limit abuse. The big danger is that Claire may run straight into the arms of an even bigger abuser. It happens all the time.
So our eBooks are about limiting the abuse and resolving the conflict. The ongoing work is to develop better emotional maturity and intelligence. We need to be able to be our own hero, as the knight in shining armor is a myth that is not relevant in today’s society.
Claire, I know this is not an easy solution, but you are ready to take the steps to looking after yourself and your own emotions now. You have to learn some new skills, you can do it.
Laura, I know your comment comes from your own experience and I believe you have Claire’s interest at heart, I hope I haven’t come across as dismissive. Kim and I only want to give people like Claire the best chance of a bright future, and untangling difficult scenarios like this are never easy.
Steve
Hi Everyone,
I believe from personal experience that when your partner is aggressive towards you they are actively hiding something they feel guilty about – something they may say they are in control of – but in actual fact are out of control of, and in my husband’s case it is alcoholism along with the behaviour that drives his addiction to alcohol – which is Narcissism.
I have been married to my husband since 1976 – we have had many good times, but we have had countless very, very bad times. I started out in this relationship a very bright attractive young girl, but soon lost the sparkle in my eyes as my husband’s addiction to alcohol got worse and he started shifting blame onto me for everything that went wrong in his life. I started and then continued to doubt myself, and I went downhill with him by trying to make him happy in the hope that he would overcome his addiction to alcohol. What I didn’t know was that in trying to make him happy I was actually contributing to his alchoholism and the narcissism behind his addiction to alcohol.
We both ended up in a downward spiral of a love-hate relationship. However I remained optimistic that I could one day “make him happy” and everything would be alright. At the same time he constantly told himself (and me) “It is no wonder I drink – look at what I have to live with…,or the kids are playing up…,or this one or that one has done me wrong…,or my problems are bigger than anyone else’s….,or it’s party time….,or it’s a hot day….,etc, etc, etc,”.
How do I know that he is an alcoholic if he has not been diagnosed or has not confessed to being one? Unfortunately I cannot say categorically that he is an alcoholic – only he can really judge that for himself – but right now he is in DENIAL that it is his drinking & the behaviour associated with it that is causing many of the problems in his life. He irrationally and conveniently believes that it is the problems in his life that are causing him to drink.
From a self-growth program called Al-Anon that I was in for many years which is a world-wide support group for the family and friends of alcoholics I learned that if a loved-one’s drinking is causing problems in his/her life and your life, then your loved one may have a problem with alcohol. From that program I learned that the problem all along is not when or how long he drinks or how much, how many or how often he drinks, nor has it been what sort he drinks, nor that he is in the gutter and penniless (both of which he is not – in fact he is a high achieving and successful businessman in a highly stressful business)…..the problem is the NEED to drink and the DENIAL that his use of alcohol is causing problems in his life.
My husband sometimes goes to extraordinary lengths to hide how much he is drinking, or justifies his drinking in many ways as mentioned above, or he (sometimes aggressively or for sport) creates an argument to fabricate a “reason” to justify his drinking.
Narcissism is the common denominator that we are all discussing here – and it is Narcissism that is behind the alcoholic, the drug addict, the gambler, the porn addict, the con-man (extortionist) and so on. The Narcissist is very skilled at hiding whatever it is that they don’t want you to see or to acknowledge for fear of losing our (the co-dependent’s) physical, mental, emotional and sometimes financial/business support that helps structurally hold up their “House of Cards”. The Narcissist will keep us “attached” to them by pulling on our heart strings or by pushing on our insecurity buttons, or by exploiting and manipulating our vulnerability – and guess what – they can because all we want to do is to “make them happy and everything will be all right”.
Our task is to learn as much as we can about Narcissism and ourselves, to let go of all the old blame games and emotional turmoil – to get real and to get honest with ourselves and our partner, and very importantly, to learn to love and accept ourselves again, and to command respect.
How do we do that? It takes a while – and it takes as long as it takes! It is a voyage of self-discovery while turning our inner strength toward positive self-growth and newly-found confidence that we are heading in the right direction for our mental, emotional & spiritual maturity – with or without the Narcissist in our life…we have to be prepared for a healthy lifestyle whatever the outcome.
In learning to love ourselves again, we can better withstand the rigors of any continuing emotional abuse from our loved one, by not absorbing their projected criticisms and rising above “the junk” all the while knowing that (in most cases) the Narcissist is really more scared of losing us than we are of losing them – although they would have us believe otherwise!
In learning to love ourselves again, we can smile and say our partner’s name warmly each time we greet them and because we have learned that they have been and are suffering from mental, emotional & spiritual immaturity – just like we have been. We can now truly reach out to them by showing them we are getting happy “without making them happy first”, and by being honest with ourselves and with them we will then be seen as trustworthy and therefore they may slowly learn to trust us. They may want to give up on their “House of Cards” or they may want to continue with a new co-dependent….que sera sera! Whatever will be, will be! The important thing to remember is we can only change ourselves, and our changed attitudes may inspire change for the better in our Narcissist.
All of the below programs for addiction are similar in format, and powerfully assist those affected by a loved-one’s addiction to a vice. As you regain your self-worth and self-esteem, and change your attitudes towards the narcissist/addict you will be providing a positive environment for the your loved one’s potential recovery from their addiction or compulsion to drink, gamble or take drugs, etc. All these programs also empower both the addict and their loved-ones to achieve their individual goals. These programs also reinforce the principles of Kim and Steve’s program only Kim and Steve and their associate professionals give definitive advice on how to handle various situations, unlike the below programs which leave each individual to find their own solutions – however together they provide the strong support than anyone living in a relationship with a narcissist requires.
12 Step programs and support groups for the family and friends of those addicted to:
Drugs: Nar-Anon
Gambling: Gam-Anon
Alcoholism: Al-Anon
I cannot praise the work that Kim and Steve have done highly enough, and will be eternally grateful that they have dedicated so much of their time and their lives to helping others as they have helped me. Thank you so much!
Good luck & stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
CD,
Thank you for your post. You are an inspiration to me. I have to keep telling myself daily it’s not up to me to make him happy. I can only make me happy.
CD,
I respect your maturity and insight with regards to all of this. Clearly you have done a lot of work with these ideas, and your experience has been valuable for many of us. It is because of that experience and insight that I write seeking your thoughts.
I continue to struggle both with myself and with my husband. I don’t want to leave, because I don’t want to hurt my boys – which I know leaving would do. I don’t want to leave, because like so many here, I see the side of my husband that I knew earlier in our relationship, both the over-confidence and the insecurity. However, I don’t want to stay and have things continue as they are because it is wearing me down too much. I don’t like the constant nastiness. I don’t like who I have become … your last posting touched on that. Essentially something changed in me with this last eruption – I’m not eaving, but I am ready to leave. It is difficult to remain kind to anyone when you are constantly being hurt, but I keep going trying my best with that suggestion. However I also can’t see myself responding to my husband in the overly solicitous, accepting all responsibility way that he seems to want/need from me. I’m having a hard time letting go of a lot of anger and resentment … fueled by constant criticism/put downs and just the other day a new level of temper-tantrum. Recently I am having a hard time even engaging at all, let alone building attachment etc. It is hard to let go of what has been said, even if I know they are just very hurtful words which I mostly doubt he really means. It saddens me because this is not the life I want, nor feel I deserve. I also do not think he wants or deserves to live this way, but I can not make him take any steps towards changing.
Although I do not know what all is the “addiction,” or deception that I have yet to discover, I have discussed previously some issues. As I have said, I think some part of his historical “grandious,” thinking has calmed, and he is creating a portion of what he always wanted, and a “real” high level business. Clearly his mind is always 5 steps ahead, envisioning the next level … that is the narcissism, but it is also what has always driven him to do more and to achieve. However, I suspect the other side of it is also what turns people away – although here he has improved in his public persona.
I’m just exhausted by trying to keep up with this ever raising standard. I just want to be able to live happily and allow my boys to be content – not worrying about who is going to judge them as “inferior and to be avoided,” because their hair is mussed, their clothes have a dirty spot, or our van has crumbs or clutter when they are dropped off to school. These are little children … there are enough years for them to be so concerned about appearences. I think his house of cards is in part wanting to “appear,” as part of some powerful social strata, that is ill defined (probably always rising) and is never what I wanted. I’m not really convinced that “those people” live the way he believes they do, but since I am not sure who “they” are it is hard to determine. He believes that “success” in business/social sence is in part coincidential and any circumstance that is not “what I expected,” will take away from that potential. Except for the relationship stuff, I am where I want to be. I took the steps to get there, and some places where I have side stepped professionally are because of making the conscious decision to focus on and protect my boys (just from the problems that I think arise more readily when both parents are working 60+ hour weeks.) I can accept my flaws and mistakes, and know that I can improve on some of the “scatter-brain-ness,” time management, and disorganized inefficiency as I get less emotionally vulnerable. Those are my biggest weaknesses I see right now.
A few weeks back, I restated clearly some boundaries about what is not acceptable, and after the temper-tantrum the other day I took the boys to my parents for an overnight. I was not going to stay with his acting so dangerously and irratically, but I came back because I did not want to be punishing him by keeping the boys away . I’m not ok with either his words to me or his behavior, and I am not sure how to address that without leaving myself open to being blambed.
Hi MR,
It is empowering when we learn that the only person we can change is ourselves. However we have to guard against changing ourselves just to make our partner happy or in response to their criticisms, put-downs, unreasonable expectations or mind games.
If there is something we believe we should change in ourselves, it must be for the reason that it is right for our OWN individual health, contentment and well-being. As we do make the changes in ourselves that we find necessary (for our own health, contentment and well-being) others will benefit too – especially those closest to us, and they may be inspired to do the same for themselves.
In searching out the shortcomings or attitudes you wish to change in yourself, you are taking your focus off your Narcissist and turning your focus toward yourself. Your Narcissist will see or sense this, and because of his high demand for constant attention, and the need for a scapegoat to excuse his own shortcomings/inadequacies, he will most likely try to get your attention and focus returned to him by whatever means possible – for example he may use charm/seduction, button pushing, blaming, criticism, put-downs, etc. The challenge for us is not to react, but to respond by being ASSERTIVE in response to the attention seeking and need for a scapegoat.
To be assertive requires us intimately knowing and believing in ourselves – what our core values and beliefs are, what we want for ourselves (and our family) and what our boundaries are (Personal Bill of Rights), and that we live according to these with honesty and integrity. To be assertive also requires us to like & love ourselves – accepting ourselves for all our strengths, weaknesses, successes and shortcomings. We build on our strength and success every time we search out our weaknesses and shortcomings, and by working on them, changing them for the better, we increase our chance of success at dealing with the difficulties in our life and become stronger to cope with – and DEFLECT – disappointment or negativity. Until we decide to and actually believe in ourselves, we are like willows in the wind – tossed and blown about by the abuse of another – abuse including criticism, insults and put-downs, etc. Nobody can put us down UNLESS WE LET THEM by absorbing or reacting to what they say.
One of my weaknesses was not knowing the language of assertiveness, saying HOW I FEEL when my husband treats me negatively (eg: Hurt, Distressed, etc), and WHAT I NEED TO DO IN RESPONSE to that negativity (eg: Go to work/sleep,etc; Call my support network).
With emotional immaturity I would react by TELLING HIM WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO TO MAKE ME FEEL BETTER (the Narcissist/Co-dependent in me?). The trouble is with his emotional immaturity he does not know how to make himself feel better, let alone make me feel better!
I would also react by defending myself, rebounding blame, negativity or aggression, crying tears of hurt, fear and frustration, and so on – and after some time of being in Al-anon I realised that every time I reacted in this way I still had something to learn – that being how to respond ASSERTIVELY.
The value of time out and self-soothing is to find the most appropriate and assertive response to keep us from going down the “automatic reaction” path that we have been caught up in doing for so long.
Kim’s repertoire of responses have been of great help to teach me the language of assertiveness – especially when I need to “build a bridge” between the “incident” and “the time-out to self-soothe” by immediately responding that:
“I feel hurt/distressed/etc by what is happening right now and I don’t want to respond until I have had time to calm down”.
Tapping into exactly what I am feeling at that exact moment of confrontation has been difficult for me – I may be feeling a combination of feelings – hurt, angry, frustrated, etc – but feel numb and can’t readily verbalise what I feel – I think the word “distressed” covers all feelings of distress in that moment of numbness.
Kim brought Steve’s narcissism to account with him by not getting sucked in to the negativity, and by getting support from others – from her support network – and she did not to hesitate to call on them to step in when necessary. From what I understand, to try to do that completely by herself under some circumstances would have probably invited further negativity or blame and would perhaps not have achieved the positive results she required to protect her well being and to command respect.
I don’t believe we can build an adequate or appropriate support network until we know what we are dealing with. It is my opinion that criticisms, insults and put-downs, etc are most likely the smoke-screen the Narcissist creates to hide his/her inadequacy(ies), or whatever it is he/she feels guilty about, or they don’t want you to know about, or the true extent of.
While you are hurting from, or reacting to, the criticisms, insults, put-downs, abuse, etc, your mind has been distracted from revealing whatever it is he is wanting to hide (this may or may not be done with malicious intent). The real deal is not about your time management (which I believe would not be a true “failing” especially under such stressful circumstances), nor about the crumbs or clutter in the van, nor the children’s hair not being combed 100% of the time, etc as he would have you believe. I believe this is his form of smoke-screening, and as you have eluded to – criticisms such as these also are about keeping up appearances, or the (Narcissistic) image he is trying to establish and/or maintain.
At a conscious or unconscious level for him, I believe it is also to distract,demoralize and/or disempower you to keep you from finding out the truth and/or leaving him – although he would have you believe you are dispensable. He has not yet followed through on his threat to leave you (which I believe could be because he is more scared of losing you than you are of losing him – although he plays this card close to his chest).
Now you are thinking that you can take or leave the marriage, the dynamic may change. When we reach this point it is because (I believe) we have grown in self-esteem and self-worth sufficiently to enable us to DETACH better from the insults, criticism, put-downs, etc, because we have realised that we are a worthwhile human being and do not have to accept unacceptable behaviour or abuse.
As a physician no doubt you are very experienced in using objectivity instead of subjectivity with your patients while still showing that you care for them. The detachment required with your husband that I talk about is similar to this. You care very much about your husband, but you can only successfully get a handle on the situation with objectivity and not subjectivity at this point in time. It is vital that you listen to what your husband “does” and not what he “says”. My guess is that what he is DOING is saying “stuff” that he knows you get caught up in and keeps you down and busy being hurt – maybe not with malicious intent (however with the prowess of an attorney) and ultimately as an emotionally immature way of hiding his true self from you, himself and the world.
It is also vital that you find out what is going on in your husband’s life – as his wife, and mother of your children, you have a right to know – especially because there has been verbal, emotional and physical abuse and intimidation. I believe you can only do this safely with a covert private investigation, and it should not be attempted by yourself. For your safety, take care on how you make and keep contact with a private investigator (meetings, phone calls, letters, emails, etc) and how you pay for the investigation service to keep it confidential from your husband. An investigation may or may not reveal anything, but it will enable you to make an informed decision if you are considering leaving the marriage. If an investigation reveals something that is not acceptable you will then know what you are dealing with and what to do about it, or what support is required whether or not you decide to stay in the marriage. With a covert investigation your husband need never know about it.
With respect to the history of physical abuse and intimidation and the recent event where things escalated that you needed to retreat to your parents home with your children – it is vital that you seek the support of your local police BEFORE you have a need to call them in the future – make them aware in the cool, calm and matter-of-fact way that Kim talks about, in a language that you are concerned for your husband, and that you are concerned for yourself and your children’s safety, and that you are not wanting to set up a stage for divorce, but that you are seeking limits on his abuse with the intent of getting help for him, and make sure this is on police record. Listen to Kim’s audios regarding this and make note of her advice – for your safety and the safety of your children.
In the meantime, make sure your basic needs are met. When things get tough for me I get very little sleep, and my mind “boggles” while staring into the blackness of night from my bed – rehashing past hurts, searching the depths of my mind for answers, etc which sets me up for exhaustion and reduced capacity to deal assertively with negative behaviour and attitudes (including my own). Make sure you get adequate and quality rest to deal with a very stressful situation (in addition to as a working mum looking after small children too which is challenging by itself). If possible – try to reduce your workload either at home or at work or both to conserve your energy. I did chuckle with you that your husband started talking about expenses not exceeding income, then nearly in the next breath he said you should have employed home tutoring for your boys a long time ago! I believe this made his criticisms of you at that time somewhat transparent? and from that you definitely should not take everything he says to heart from now on?
Consider new options like:
• Some day care for your pre-schoolers where they can relax, make noise and have fun with other kids of similar age. My nearly six year old grand-son has just taken up ball-room dancing! He asked to do this after watching his mum starting ballroom dancing. His little face lights up with joy every time he dances – and his teachers are astounded at how quickly he is picking it up (he lacked confidence in doing anything before, but has taken to this like a duck to water).
• Take time out from the marriage (whether or not you want to leave the marriage right now) by going on a holiday with your children -no doubt your husband would not want to go due to his work commitments. Have heaps of fun with your kids – speaking from experience they will appreciate it immensely and remember it with happiness well into adulthood. While on holiday, live by your standards with them, letting them relax and have fun while just being kids without concern for dirty laundry or dishevelled hair, give them the opportunity to enjoy that mum is great fun to be with. (“They say to look after your kids really well because they eventually get to choose your nursing home!” – humorous but true!!)
• When your husband wants the house to be quiet, make sure that you go somewhere with the kids where you have lots of fun and relaxation too.
This is all just being good to yourself, and what is best for you is best for your family (it also takes the focus off your husband, and brings new joyful conversation to the table – you may be met with some adversity, but your husband will need time to feel “safe” with this, and may even reassess his priorities one day?).
Keep reading and listening to Kim & Steve’s information, and Sarah’s audios if you have them – I still pick up something new every time I have another look or listen to the wealth of information they have provided.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Dear kim and Steve,
It is refreshing to know someone believes in healing, not leaving! Our story is the same as the hundreds that you read each day, with one twist. When we met, we both had petting zoo businesses. Entertaining was or lives and we enjoyed it. Mine was a farm tour, aimed at teaching children about agriculture. His was more of a traveling show.
In the beginning it was so perfect, so much in common. Within six months he had convinced me to give up mine (so that we did not have double expenses) and we became one business. Incorporated both names worked together….so nice. Then it fell apart, first he stopped allowing me any part of decision making, then took my name out of all advertising, then left me totally out of the finances (my only source of income!) I have five children so you know that is not an option. I started fighting over even grocery money, and eventually had to stop “working for HIM” and find different work.
When I did, he filed for divorce, of course telling us to leave, while he operated the business solely. All the while we have been trying to work it out and have cancelled the divorce. ( i never agreed to a divorce)
I had no choice, I moved to a seperate house. And now have a great job, he however is doing horrible financially, and refuses to admit it. He has taken “our business” and made it into the source of his ego building monster feeding device. He uses and abuses the animals, and cant financially take care of them, but doesnt care if they die, he just replaces them.
Meanwhile he shows up at events and of course ALL women throw their selves at him, because they think it is sooooo cool that he has a zebra, kangaroo, buffalo, monkey….whatever. This “business” does not provide for us in any way, and he only goes farther in debt, only because he buys so much “stuff” to impress others. But it has a potential to make a fortune if the finances were handled correctly.
I try not to get mad, but if we dont have heat, do you think he should by a camel?
I have taken back control of my finances and take care of a seperate home (with heat and a working stove) and he says he loves me and we are trying to work it out, but now his is excuse is that I dont support his “lifestyle” of what makes HIM happy. (keep in mind it was mine to start with).
So he refuses to let me or the children be a part of “the business” at all- instead he tells everyone that we dont like that kind of thing, and he hires other womens kids to work with him, and they pity him for his wifes lack of support.
I am his fifth wife. I do NOT want to divorce him. But cant compete with the women who constantly feed his ego, since he now calls that his “lifestyle and only source of income” can you PLEASE, PLEASE tell me how you would addres this?
CD,
Months ago, I took your suggestion about listening to the past radio shows and relaxation tapes while driving. There are 2 days a week I have a bit of a communte and I cherish those trips. I think it has been good for me, as was going back to work about this time last year (helped me once again feel like I was capable at something.)
I read in one of Kim’s recent transcripts about difficulties in discussing things. She says “Steve, back when I wasn’t able to discuss that with you. And you would just say, ‘oh it doesn’t matter, you just do whatever’.
STEVE: Yeah, ‘I haven’t got time to talk about it. Sure, you do whatever’.
KIM: You just do whatever you want and I will go along with it. And you pretended you were really easygoing. But when it got down to it, whatever plans I made you would just completely ignore and do what you would like and be upset with any of it if it wasn’t what you wanted or what you liked. And I would say, well, why didn’t you talk to me about it. And I remember reading marriage books back then and one that just clearly illustrated that whole situation for negotiation and if one person isn’t prepared to sit down and take the time to negotiate, really they are the person that is the aggressor.
STEVE: That’s right.
KIM: And you used to always point the finger and say, ‘Look, you are having all these ideas and you are more assertive than me anyway. There is no point in talking to you because you will always win’.
This scenerio rang very true for me. Going back many, many years to issues I didn’t even recognize at the time. My husband has always tried to say that he allowed me to do whatever I wanted in many things, but after many of my decisions it was always a criticism about the decision. It is much clearer to me now, but I can remember sometimes I even saw it then. Situations where I thought he was agreeing, and he later has come back to say that I was pushing something on him, and he was being so generous as to just go along, but I am “blamed” now for not recognizing how he really felt, or supporting what he wanted. The biggest of these was the purchase of our first house, which I did with some minor help from my parents. I worked extra hours during my last year of medical training to help cover cost. I wanted us to have a nice place, and I thought it was something he wanted too. (I was guilty of playing into the “image” thing at that time too. ) We sold it at a big profit, and moved at my husband’s wish, but couched as “for me,” because I was commuting about an hour and was about to deliver our first child. The profit from the house went into some things he wanted to do, to pay off some old debt he had, and ultimately into our current house. Once I was out of training, I out earned my husband for the first 7 or so years of our marriage, so I understand this was not how he wanted to see himself, but I saw it as the opportunity to let him find and develop what he wanted to do while still having a “pretty good life.”
I took off some time after the birth of my third, and that was when things got very bad between us. Post partum depression, my feeling less secure because we had moved around during my pregnancy, our things were all in boxes, and I had lost my role at work, and was being criticized constantly. At this point I am back to contributing significantly to our household income, but much of what I do at home is still being devalued. Our nanny has even picked up on when he tries to find fault with how I am managing things. He seems to be hurt and to want to hurt.
I’m doing better at not getting caught into feeling responsible when he gets angry at me. I know I still need passages like Kim’s above to reassure me that I am not the precipitant of all of our issues (that doubt is pretty well entrenched – maybe because it leaves me with some control over things … if I fix myself it will make everything ok again. ) I’m probably getting more frustrated and angry at him, although I am mostly not responding or reacting. I’m tired of accomodating and tolerating. I’m tired of either being ignored or insulted. I’m tired of my boys being put in the middle – pushed to either choose to spend time with dad or with me, and other times having to listen to the put downs of me.
I’m considering talking with the headmistress/nun of my eldest child’s school. She just sent out a newsletter on expecting too much from our children. I expect to find a receptive ear, but I need to figure out how to ask for help in getting my husband to see how his interaction with the boys and with me in front of the boys is not good for them. He expects them to be older than they are, especially when he is under stress. I’m wary about making things worse – making him feel like I am criticizing him or trying to tell him he is wrong, which are sure to backfire.
Given the spectrum of what is people have documented on this site, my life is ok, but it is not what I want. I hope in time to give more back to this site and to others here. I miss the husband I first knew … and yes I recognize that may have been a facade, but I would like back someone who can want to be with me and want to be considerate of me, It is difficult to work on building attachment when he hibernates on the computer. It is a challenge to even get eye contact at any point in the day. I can’t get myself to give a bright and bubbly good morning … although I know I should try, and need to work on doing so. I think I am wary of being hurt when it is rejected – either directly or indirectly.
I know the places I need to see some changes, and some have changed , but only to be replaced with cold disengagement (here I need to not let his past threats echoing back in me.) I’m still holding out hope that things can get better, but I wish I more clearly had my husband working with me.
MR
Dear Kim and Steve,
My situation is a little different than what yours was and I’m trying to figure how to apply your recommendations to my situation. I would be the classic co-dependent that you described. I am not married to my NPD partner and now he has decided to leave the relationship but says he wants to remains friends. I feel like I’ve been hit by a bus and feel horrible that there seems to be nothing in my power to un-do the damage.
While he said he wanted to continue to remain friends, he hasn’t honored that statement either. At this point, I’m simply trying to retain the friendship part of the relationship. As nutty and irrational some of his behavior was, I still cannot help but believe that there is a decent, kind and caring human being inside of him. He was never physically abusive to me. I do feel he drinks a bit too much (shot booze in his coffee, booze in his office desk, a glass of scotch before bed and beer all day long), he also has a serious addiction to nicotine. He stopped smoking which sounds great but now he chews through 10 to 15 pieces of nicotine gum per day, which is more than when he smoking. I spends a tremendous amount of time alone surfing the internet (the fantasy life you spoke of, although I don’t think he uses porn, but habitually trolls the dating websites)
In the early stages of the relationship, we seemed to be so very much in synch and we both proclaimed how very happy we were to have found each other, but then one day it was as if a light switch went off and he totally changed. He accused me of being over critical of him because I simply stated that “I don’t think it’s going to rain of us today” and that was an insult to his proposed plans – that I was a total go on all long. From there, the cascading failure of communication began at an uncontrollable rate. I could see deep hurt and fear in his eyes and I would try to reassure him that I would never hurt him and that I would always stand by him, and that seemed to only make it worse. He has now changed his story several times in regards to the “type” of relationship that he is looking for. The fact that I was commented to stick by him made him act even worse and push me even further away. I probably did every wrong thing on your list to try to diffuse the situation, which led to the situation to become even worse. I know he’s already online trolling for his next “victim”. My girlfriend saw his profile online on his favorite dating website. I’m worried for the next person he dates and I know there’s absolutely nothing I can do to control that.
I’ve let boyfriends fall by the way side more often than not, but for whatever reason, I felt different about this one. I feel like there’s a good person inside being held back by a bad one that is only acting out from pain. At this point, I do not have the ambition of getting back together as a couple. I only want to salvage the friendship. The only communication lately has been through emails. Is there truly nothing I can do to at least save the friendship part of this relationship?
Dear Kim and Steve,
I have been in relationship with my husbad for last 5 years (3 years married). We have had constant arguments and I always thought the I was the problem and was not good enough. I have been batteling depression since last couple of years and thought that I was going insane. My husband blames me for every thing he possibly can and made me belive that I was the one who needed to learn “to behave” (thats when i did did something different to what he thought was the appropriate behaviour). For the last 5 years i have kept on changing myself for him but the cycle never ends! There is always something he finds to “Fix” in me. It was only when I came across your website I realised that its my husband who is the N here and I am the co dependant. He is very possesive and insecure and tries to keep me away from my friend and family as best as he can. And if i try to maintain ties with them he says that i am selfish and heartless and i dont care about him. He is verbally very abusive. Your website has given me a hope that things can be mended. i have bought your audios and also the gap finder and look back from the glass. I have been following the steps that you have suggested from the last couple of weeks. I can see that my husband is a bit confused by my confident behaviour now. He said to me last night that he feels i have changed and have become more bold and selfish and dont care about his feelings any more. So he is now trying to control me even more. Wondering if i am on the right track?? what do i do? is he just testting my limits?
Yes I think you are right and he will probably test you even more before this is over but you stand firm!
Have a look at the super nanny if you can and just see how hard those kids test their parents once they
start setting firm boundaries and not getting sucked in to the games!!! It will help you to see that I think.
So far so good and you are doing great and you hang in there!!!
I can not thank you enough Kim for what you and Steve have done for this community of people suffering with this issue. I run the risk here of sounding a little too “emotional” but you have been like an angel to me! On just the right day, and at just the right time you have provided me with just what I needed to get back on track… a track that I had begun to walk away from. Like an angel!!! Thank you so much
Allison
Hi
I recently purchased your material and have found it extremely helpful. I am in the setting boundaries stage and havent figured this all out yet. My husband of 17 mo has NPD and is Bipolar (on meds). For the past 17 mon I have written when he got mad and what it was about. He would always blame me but I knew it was not my fault. He gets mad about something at least once a month. He can stay mad for up to 10 days, all the while blaming me and saying that I don’t want to resolve it. I am finally learning to set some limits because he is verbally abusive even to the point of yelling. When he gets mad I leave the bedroom and sleep downstairs because he is very mean at nite. He has elbowed me in bed and pushed my legs. He gets up and turns all the lights on when I am trying to sleep. Sometimes he starts yelling at me in the middle of the nite. It makes me tense all over wondering what will happen next so I sleep downstairs.
Later after days, he will become sweet and kind and ask me to forget the past and move forward.
My counselor has told me some of the same ideas portrayed in your books. I appreciate your detail and I am learning what has to be done. I don’t know what the outcome will be, but I know I will survive and even thrive!
Hi Kim and Steve,
My husband and I have had a spiraling relationship the past 10 years. i am an Ivy League trained physician-scientist and lived in Boston and New York before “slowing” down my career, when I met my husband who worked at the same job for 20 years and lived in his same hometown. We got married at 38, had two wonderful children (boy and girl), then my life slowly fell apart. I worked part-time as a pediatrician, but to him, I never was making enough money. I went for more training in genetics since I lost a position when he pushed me to make more money. I completed my training, commuting 3 hours a day, got treated for thyroid cancer, then had 3 part-time positions but had difficulty keeping up because of the fatigue after my thyroid cancer treatment, my 2+ hour daily commute, my son’s learning problems, and the fact that whereas his mother was 10 minutes from our home, my parents lived 2 hours away. Somehow I was being held to a higher standard, and felt my life was out of balance, so I left clinical medicine, worked on improving my home and supporting my son the next 2 years, then got a part-time position working from home (in genetics). Well, for the past 5 years my husband has been complaining that I don’t have a real job, that I ruined the marriage, that I am to blame and need medication. He has refused to see my therapist. He threatens me with divorce, then he filed for divorce (he kept nagging me one day about no relationship, no marriage and asked whether we should get divorce so I told him to go ahead). He filed in May, but refused to go to mediation. He sent my lawyer a “proposal” which she thought was preposterous. Then at the last minute he asked me to have a 90 day stay and stupid me accepted. He was nice to me the first day, saying he was sorry for everything he put me through. The next day he was telling me how much the lawyers already took from us, still talks about my career and my MD degree, and wonders if the marriage is worth the benefit. He feels nothing is wrong with himself. I feel like a failure. Is this a narcissist? Am I crazy/stupid to remain with him or think that he can change?
Hi Kim and Steve, Your website is the best.I know without a doubt in my spirit that God lead me to your site.My husband is a Narcisstic and I have cried many days because of it.I always kept hoping that his terrible behavior will change.I am a Godly woman and I love my husband and I don’t want a divorce.Do you believe a narcisstic can behave this way and truly love his wife?I really need a answer to this question, thanks
I need some input on this….I am trying to work on my boundaries and having the right responses to his negative outbursts of yelling and putting me down but what do you do about making love? He EXPECTS that I should continue to want to be intimate with him even when he is mad at me and yells at me. I tell him there is no emotional intimacy in our relationship because of the verbal abuse. When he is nice and helpful then I try to make love but it is getting more difficult. He quotes the Bible to me as this is my obligation! What do you other ladies do?
Allison,
I was re-reading old postings as a way to calm myself after a rough morning. I read your first posting and I do see some overlap in our stories. My husband came from 2 immegrant parents, his dad had 4-5 years of schooling and hos mom had none. He built a business with his dad that did well and then had big problems (which he blambs entirely on his dad.) He was an attorney came to the US to get an advanced degree and now is running a council with multiple international embassies and universities. Lots of places for narcissistic supply, but he also has really accomplished a lot.
I wanted to share with you a new insight or new perspective … not that intellectualizing about our spouses fixes the problem.
I do not see that my husband has an “addiction” in the traditional sense, but similar to what you described there is a constant drive to create the next big idea or project. Earlier in our marriage, he talked to me about the anxiety he felt because there always seemed to be some leap to the next step in his building of his business. However now with years of history with him, I see that much of this is self created. He will justify this as the evolution of his business model trying to find what really works, but it is also creating a frequent re-starting and re-building. There must be something that releases endorphins in this … the rush of the new project or new idea.
I see the same pattern in his leisure activities with our boys. He can go from one “focus,” to the next in cycles. While in one, he is overdriven about it … for example the past 2 weeks or so, he has decided that the boys need to learn about art and drawing. So this means spending time at the local art museums, watching internet videos on how to draw, getting books on how to draw, and now going out to get paints, charcoals, pastels, and lap easels (getting them out of the house by 7:30am on a Saturday.) Remembering my older 2 boys are 4 and 6, what is wrong with a box of crayons and a box of washable markers. I don’t see this as “for the kids,” but as “serving dad’s need” for the next novel interest. I’m not complaining, because in these spurts he does spend time with the boys, and does expose them to a number of good things. I just put it out for consideration as a variety of a behavior driven similarly to an addiction (?) or similar to the search for the next new business plan.
If you see a similarity in your experience, I hope this gives you some comfort and shared perspective.
MR
MR, interesting post you shared here.
With the former N-mentor from a few years ago, I saw the same thing. At one point I asked her if she ever feels that she actually “accomplishes” or “arrives” at anything she strives to do or place she strives to get to. Her response was that she really never does, because there is “always something more…something better…something new.” Again, as in your situation, most of this was self-created on her part of things.
The biggest thing that baffled me, was that she seemed to have big plans for a huge ministry endeavor, yet when I got up close to her, there actually was no ministry at all…not even the real “starting” of one. Very odd.
Lynne,
My background is similar to yours except for a different specialty. I was married when I was in my fellowship in New Haven. Almost three years ago, I left a top tier faculty position in part (although not entirely) because of my husband’s covert message that it would be better if I focused less on my “career,” more on my family, and maximized the $$/hr I was getting. I was not strong enough to protect my time which made it difficult for me to keep up with the demands of academia.
I stopped working completely after the birth of my 3rd child, and was “helping him” in his business. There was a change of job and a few re-locations in during the pregnancy. That 9 months and the next 8 when I stayed home were the worst for me and our relationship. Although I’m not sure I was ready to go back to work much sooner than I did, I still remember the first few days back when once again I felt like I could do something competently and confidently! First – Don’t loose what you do well and where you get positive feedback. Consider if you should go back to working someplace outside of the home. Living with someone who can be subtly critical all of the time is very draining. Second – (and here I differ from Kim) do you think you would benefit from an antidepressant if only for short term, to get yourself more resilient?
I still get drilled about how much I am bringing in financially. No matter how I answer the question it can get distorted and is never quite in the format he wants (usually it digresses into how I should be keeping records of everything I bill on an excel spread sheet for I am paid a % of what my employer collects for my work) I have come to realize that is not the issue (and I am getting better about just diverting the discussion.)
I’m still hoping that staying will get things better, but I am “in the process, at a fairly rough patch,” so I can just offer support. I deeply believe that divorce is not going to make things better, and that sharing custody with these type of spouses is going to pose most of the same challenges as does living with them. Does it help to engage your husband around what kind of a relationship and role model he wants you and he to be for your children?
Remember you are not alone, and are far from a failure.
MR
Joyanne,
That issue is extremely challenging! I myself have struggled with it for years as well. I have tried explaining to my husband the difficulty getting intimate when he behaves emotionally disconnected, and void. I think it makes me feel like a prostitute to give myself to someone who isn’t at the same time able to connect in that emotional way. And then I leave the situation feeling used and disregarded. My husband has never understood my desire for emotional intimacy and my inability to share myself with him in that way if we have just had an issue, arguement, or are in repair mode (especially because “repair mode” after boundaries have been crossed, can take a while).
I’m not really sure I can give you any advise, but I can sympathize, as I agree with you and know how hard it can be. I do feel that he has NO RIGHT to bully you, or belittle you at this time. You have EVERY right to decide what feels comfortable and when you feel you want to get intimate is quite personal to you and your own situation.
I actually got into the very bad habbit of drinking alcohol to mask the feelings of disgust I had for my husband so I could have sex. It was awful!!! I became worried that he would go somewhere else to get it, so I very foolishly decided to degrade myself and behave in an unhealthy way to deal with it. Only, this just brought more problems into my life and I was not “dealing” with my ill feelings at all, I was just running away – and running away solves nothing! I feel much better now that I deal with my issues regarding myself and the narcissistic behavior.
I actually had to work on this issue of intimacy in therapy on my own with a professional. I became so cold and resentful that I was getting more and more distant and losing myself in the process. I want to try to make our marriage work and to do that I needed to try (as hard as it was) to build something with him slowly and at a comfort level that I was in control of.
Good luck, and remember that NO ONE has the right to make you feel badly about doing something you are not ok with!
Allison
Hey Kim! I just recently joined your website. I have determined that I am the co-dependent one. I think I kinda always knew that but never admitted it. Ok, long story–try to make it short:
My husband and I have been married for 8 years and been together for 9. For 7 years, my husband has lied to me, verbally and emotionally abused me, he never physically hit me though. I know back in 2006 we are on the verge of divorce and he lied to my family saying bad things about me, which of course they didn’t believe.
My husband lost his job in Dec. 2007. In April 2008 with moved in with my mother and brother–who is very very verbally and physically abusive (this we didn’t really know until we moved in). After living with him for a year, we finally got our own place.
Ok: now to the point: My husband quit calling me names and putting me down. He has really changed and is making an effort not to do those things. He is still not there for me emotionally. How do I get past the past and focus on the present and future? There are times when he will say something a certain way and I always want to close myself in. It’s an automatic reaction. When he does yell at me or use that tone, he comes back later and apologizes (something he really didn’t do before). I’m lost and really don’t know where to go from here.
I’m glad I found your website because I finally found someone who can relate to me and I can relate to them. We have a 5 yr old son and I don’t want to end my marriage. Truth be told though, if I didn’t have my son I probably would have left him a long time ago. Am I wrong for that??
Please anything you can suggested is truly appreciated.
Thanks
Hi Tonya,
The advice in “The Love Safety Net Workbook” will really help you develop a better attachment and better rapport and our new codependence package on our new introductory sales page will help you a lot too.
It is good he is making progress and these short eBooks will really help you build on that and develop deeper trust.
I only stayed with Steve because I didn’t have the money to leave and in the past to be honest I used to wish him dead! Now he is so dear to me I could never express it in words so no I don’t think you are wrong for staying because of your son and I also know that there is hope!
Kim
Allison, I can relate to the feelings of being “used” or “prostituted,” because along with just being emotionally disconnected, my husband is very into pornography. I hate it and secretly long for the day when I’ll be free of him and his perversions!
I’m not like you, Kim…I am not real sure I want my marriage to work out with this man, because I can’t see how he will ever be anything other than a slob and pervert and abuser. It looks hopeless for him but not for me as an individual.
Just to share a bit here of today’s fiasco with him.
He has a chiropractor appt Mon, Wed, Fri at 8 AM. He has been late for his appts ever since he scheduled the first one.
Today, I woke up close to 8, went and woke up him and he said “what time is it?” I said “8…your appt was at 8.” He asked “Why didn’t you wake me up?” I said, “you are 50 years old, not 14. I should not have to wake you up. That’s what alarm clocks are for!” Then he said, “You should have woken me up!”
He came upstairs and we got into an argument over the bills he hasn’t paid. I told him, “then you need to get a better job if you can’t pay the bills.” He said, “no, you need to go get a job instead of going to stupid college! It may help in the long run but it ain’t doin us any good now!” (he has jeapardized my chance to go back to 4 different colleges in the past. I’ve told him in the past, if he screws this up, I’m OUT!!! I have a right to an identity and a life free of reliance on a man who chooses to be irresponsible).
Finally, I said to him, “Roland, you are NOT going to scapegoat me for your irresponsibility.” He said, “it’s your responsibility to wake me up…you were up already so all ya had to do was wake me up.” Then he stomped out the door.
Last night, I attended a drama about domestic violence and abuse. I’ll tell you, if it weren’t for having a very impressionable 10 year old whose world counts on this illusion that mommy and daddy are happily married, I would have LEFT years ago!
Hi MR,
Sorry to hear that you are going through a really rough patch right now. I can relate! I’ve been feeling like the work load of managing this disorder is more than I want to take on. I’ve regressed a little over the past couple months and recently decided to take it day by day again and attack it that way.
When you talk about your situation and your husbands desire to “create” new things in his business I do feel similar. The difference for me is that my husband has not had success yet. He has been in “change” mode for the past several years. Although he only officially started his business in Feb. he has been planning and replanning, renaming, and researching and learning for the past 3-5 years. The past 6 months have been brutal because he has invested (time and $$$) in over 5 different business opportunities and never been able to follow through on any of them. Now he is “doing what he has wanted all along” and swears he will follow through. I guess that isn’t really the issue for me. The issue is the fact that our financial security is at risk now and he won’t address it realistically. He keeps telling me (like he has over and over again over the past 6 months) that the answer to the problem is to bring in income and that is what he is going to do with this most recent business venture. My problem isn’t that I don’t believe him, but that we have NO IDEA how long that will take and there is no guarantee that he will not lose his day job in the process. And our financial problems can not be put on hold. Fortunately, I was able to take some positive steps to get some control over our accounts and he hasn’t yet responded negatively. He seems to be glad to give me the responsibility of the bills and the finances and managing our debt. This worries me though because just a month ago he wouldn’t give me the passwords and gave me a really hard time when I said I wanted to manage the finances for us…. it’s odd that now it seems ok.
Anyway, I am at the beginning stage of this with him as far as the business goes. I don’t really mind backing off and letting him do his business the way he wants to as long as we are financially stable. The problem is that he obviously doesn’t see me as an equal and therefore I don’t (in his eyes) have the right to make decisions about our finances including his business. So when he makes a financial decision he doesn’t consult me anymore because his experience tells him I will not give in to his every whim and desire and he would rather just have his own way, but recently this has cost us another couple thousand dollars in debt and fees and bounced checks… all of which he says are worth it becasue his education is an investment for our future. I don’t have a say in the matter obviously.
I’d love your feedback if you are comfortable sharing. What has it been like for you to deal with your N in business? Did your finances go in the toilet? Have you been locked out of your right to make financial decisions that effect you and your children? Has your N been successful in follow through with business decisions, and have they been good deals? My husband gets his supply through this process. All the meetings, all the networking, all the dinners and lunches where he can hear how much people admire him for his determination and hard work… I can’t compete with it. I can’t cut it out of his life, it’s who he is. He would never even consider changing his ideas about his career. I am battling this every day because he spends most of his time feeding his supply which then turns into what a tebbile person I am for not believing in him when every one else does. And of course the more meetings he goes to the more ideas he gets from new people and new groups. I know it’s all part of the npd but I don’t know how to manage it with him persuing it every day.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Allison
Allison, Thank you for your response to my searching for answers about intimacy. I especially appreciated your statement at the end ” No one has the right to make you feel badly about doing something you are not ok with.”
It is very difficult to desire an intimate physical relationship with someone who yells at you, demeans you and accuses you. I try to tell him this but for some reason he can not see the connection between treating me nicely and making love.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I have a couple of question for Steve, if that’s ok. Steve, I listened to your radio show where the two of you where talking about the “Skeleton Woman” story, and you said that at point you had decided to leave Kim. May I ask what did Kim say or doing that made you change your mind? What was it that allowed you to start trusting her again and what led you to finding attractive her to you again. I hope that isn’t too personal. I hope to you understand what you were thinking during that time before things turned around and then how it did turn around for you two.
On another note, I have discovered that my NPD’r is spending a tremendous amount of time on a dating website. My girlfriend saw his profile online. I guess he doesn’t realize that a person can see when he’s on there without actually clicking on his profile. He is so arduous about how serioius his work is and how important tha he not be disterubed at work, when in fact, he’s spending 2 to 3 hours a day on this date site. I would say this is his fantasy life, clicking through girl’s profiles literally morning, noon and night. I’m doing “snip it” and stop exercise to keep myself from becoming upset. But does one compete with a fantasy world and fantasy life?? I’m real. I’m human and flaud like most people. How does one bring him back into reality?
My ambission is to disarm this destructive behavior.
Allison,
I’m happy to share and go through all of your questions. Still feeling rather hopeless here, although I knew this was going to be a stressful and difficult time, in the midst of it I am really wondering why I keep trying with someone who appears to care nothing for me and to be enjoying hurting me. (My empathy is on empty right now, and I am reacting to lots of little things despite my not wanting to do so.) I don’t know if Kim still is maintaining any sort of e-mail “penpal” system, for I am a little anxious about putting too much details out “on the web.” I am fearful that the “public / private” boundary gets blurred for me – because of my own nature and I guess because of my job as well.
Our timeline has been as follows – we were married in late 1999. My husband left his employment (secure government position) around March of 2001. I had been working an additional position to cover some extra costs because I wanted a house, and I knew I would have an income jump in a few months. My husband had moderate amounts of income from 2001 – 2006 often from other “small consulting type” sources. I think that in 2006 his income was a little greater than his expenses, and after that is has increased.
My income has always been good, and I have always provided all insurance, benefits etc. I began to decrease my work time after our 2nd child, and more with our 3rd. Only in the past 2 years have we been able to put anything into savings. My husband is less cautious about low ticket item purchases, eating out etc. than I am, and I have had to tolerate this all along (meeting his needs.) He never was reckless or excessive with these. With some minor exceptions he has kept his costs very streamlined as well. Because I knew I could cover our primary expenses the debt never was unreasonable.
(At some level, I wonder why I feel so hurt with how things are now …)
His business ideas were not a clear picture and a straight shot from 2001 to now. There is some connection between the areas he always discussed and explored and what he is doing now, but it never was easy to explain to anyone else what he was doing. I guess earlier it was easier for me to handle because I was working long hours, and the critical remarks to me were far less frequent. Juggling working and the first 2 babies 25 months apart kept me busy and distracted.
>>>Fortunately, I was able to take some positive steps to get some control over our accounts and he hasn’t yet responded negatively. He seems to be glad to give me the responsibility of the bills and the finances and managing our debt. This worries me though because just a month ago he wouldn’t give me the passwords and gave me a really hard time when I said I wanted to manage the finances for us…. it’s odd that now it seems ok. >>>
I have always manged our taxes – he pretty much ignores them beyond making quarterly payments. It always was a trigger for arguments (I think it made him feel insecure) I have resented this the past 2 years because they are much more complicated and I have to make my best guess around some of the business issues etc. He has generally done our primary bill paying etc. Early on I suggested he do it on line, which he distrusted and generated some arguments between us. Now he does many accounts this way (and has reduced the amount of late fees/penalties etc.) I have offered to do them, most recently when one of my credit cards went unpaid, but he has not accepted. I do not have the on line account password, but I have considered taking back at least my personal credit cards and some other things. When he pushes at me about what I am making, or “checking” about minor charges, I consider this more strongly. His behavior around money is not not consistently “controlling,” but does flair when other stress or anxieties increase for him.
In general I have come to recognize that when I am over tired, when I am feeling insecure myself, … at those times I get more worried and more reactive. I can also tell when the tension is starting to build between us, he is more critical and more isolating from me … I do know that as he has become more financially successful (essentially no longer needing me) the proportion of the time he is “dis-satisfied” with me has increased. He also knows that those are “my buttons.” Currently it is about 100%. I feel he has been building the scenerio in his mind that he no longer needs me for anything (ie the nannies can be an adequate substitute, especially as he convinces himself I am not good for the children.)
>>>> The problem is that he obviously doesn’t see me as an equal and therefore I don’t (in his eyes) have the right to make decisions about our finances including his business. So when he makes a financial decision he doesn’t consult me anymore …>>>
My husband used to talk to me more about what he was doing etc,. Earlier in our relationship I would listen for a long time about his ideas and strategies (I now see as reinforcing for him.) I tried to listen and help, but my mind does not think the same way as his … I am more limited by the traditional models, and if I pointed out the issues I saw, a conflict began and I became “not supportive.” Because he has pointed out over the years about how my comments often seem negative to him, I have tried my best to counter that habit. Prior to my helping him he again tried to discuss a lot. I loved that feeling, because we had started to loose so much shared time, but it also became a set-up for my being inadequate and “reinforced” how I was not smart enough – or he was “better.”
>>>I’d love your feedback if you are comfortable sharing. What has it been like for you to deal with your N in business? Did your finances go in the toilet? Have you been locked out of your right to make financial decisions that effect you and your children? Has your N been successful in follow through with business decisions, and have they been good deals? >>>
Any business decisions he makes on his own – I’ve given him full freedom around that. Sometimes the technology “toy,” purchases etc seem excessive to me, but I try and take a big picture perspective and realize they are not so significant. (This has been easier in the last few years.) There have certainly been moderate expenses which were not necessary and not helpful, but at least earlier in our marriage he would explain his strategy to me. I tried to trust his judgement about these. There were a few which were more difficult to support, and these were usually driven by his fear and a desire to try and take excessive precautions (I can explain more by e-mail if needed) I would say that any non-business big financial decisions he has either made on his own (where if I knew about it ahead of time I agreed in part because I was trying to make him feel I was being supportive,) or most he takes a more passive role (leaving me to make the decision and then to be blamed for whatever fault he found in it later.)
>>>>My husband gets his supply through this process. All the meetings, all the networking, all the dinners and lunches where he can hear how much people admire him for his determination and hard work… I can’t compete with it. I can’t cut it out of his life, it’s who he is. He would never even consider changing his ideas about his career. I am battling this every day because he spends most of his time feeding his supply which then turns into what a terribile person I am for not believing in him when every one else does. And of course the more meetings he goes to the more ideas he gets from new people and new groups. I know it’s all part of the npd but I don’t know how to manage it with him persuing it every day.>>>>
Oh believe me I understand the narcissistic supply of networking and meetings etc! My husband puts on a conference at this point, and organizes on line panels and meetings etc. Bringing together “high level experts,” can bring you into their circle … the perfect narcissistic position??? Take what you are experiencing and compound it with the fact that the “meetings,” are his! I get caught with a mix of pride for what he has done, and nausea for the hypocracy between the public persona and the one I live with. That has gotten stronger as he has gotten stronger, and I wish I could focus more on the pride.
Sometimes I wonder if Kim’s strategies will work in our case, because my husband’s biggest failing is in his responsibility to maintain a good relationship with his spouse, and this is easy to blame entirely on me. It is tough to build attachment when he is actively trying to disengage from me. I’m struggling to not be so caught up with my own hurt that I can’t be calmly assertive but rather am over-sensitive to less significant issues. I’m very afraid he is going to leave once this project is done … I do not want that to happen and (my own narcissistic ?) part of me will feel like a failure if he does.
Hope that helps … and it gave me the opportunity to vent through some things as well. As others have said on this blog before … thanks to everyone … this community has really been a great support and a lifeline while struggling with these issues.
MR
Hi MR,
Wow, thank you so much for sharing! I feel like I “know” you better than I know my husband. I guess because your situation has similarities that make me feel “home”. It’s like I can relate to you and understand your situation so much more easily than I can understand the narcissism, because we’ve probably gone through some of the same feelings and the same torture with this disease.
I don’t think that anyone can truly empathize with a person dealing with a narcissist unless they are dealing with one themselves. That is hard for me becasue I need support on a regular basis, and my family and friends just don’t get it. They try and they listen, but they don’t know what I feel like. Only the victims of narcissism know what it feels like. And there aren’t any support groups that meet to talk around here that are related to npd.
Anyway… thank you again for sharing, I appreciate your honesty and friendship. One day at a time over here. And that’s all I can do right now.
Allison
Maybe this is narcissistic of me to say, but I’ve been feeling very ignored on this list lately. Seems I post but nobody responds and they just keep telling their own stories.
I guess I have a boundary that requires feedback at least once in while, please.
What’s going on with you Laura? How are things? Are you going through an “upswing” or are you dealing with the trauma right now?
Allison
Laura,
My husband went ahead and followed through with his newest opportunity and career endeavor. I was unable to get through to him, regardless of my thoughtful and considerate arguements to the contrary.
He has control of where his $$$ gets spent, blah blah blah! But I have begun to take steps to control the finances at this point…
How did you have success keeping your husband from moving forward???
Allison
Hi Kim and Steve, I am new here. I believe that my husband is a Narcisstic.He is very sucessful with a high professional job. I have observed that he is unable to see his flaws.It seems to build him up when he constantly point out my flaws and faults.He has unresolved issues and pain from previous failed marriages,and he take it out on me.I have tried in a loving ways to help him to be aware of his own behavior but i just wasted my energy and time. I feel that he is afraid to see himself and if he were aware that he has flaws, it will destroy him.He act crazy when he see my flaws and that is not normal behavior.I love him, how can i help him heal so that we can have a strong healthy marriage?
Hi MR,
Just back arrived back after being away the last couple of weeks – so many postings to catch up on. I was really pleased to hear that you have been listening to Kim and Steve’s Audios in your car while commuting (perhaps you should only listen to Sarah’s relaxation audios when not driving though?).
I recalled the audio you were talking about and I had nodded my head also – I identified whole heartedly with what Kim and Steve were saying – that when Steve used to appear “easy going” by not negotiating, but later complained about the outcome or events – he was actually being the aggressor.
My husband does this frequently, he pretends to be easy going when all the time he is setting me up for after-the-fact criticism, saying that “he doesn’t get a say” or “I always do whatever I want anyway”, etc.
If that were the case why, in the first place, would I ask him every time for the purpose of negotiation what he would like to do with the options/choices we have? It is aggressive behaviour on his part and later (full of self pity and resentment) he will either sulk, make deriding comments about me, others or the event, and/or make remarks about how much he didn’t enjoy himself, and/or that he wanted to do something else, etc.
I used to become distressed that I had upset him and would try to make amends or placate him. But when I recognised the real problem many years ago and learned to make note of the course of events ready for times of such aggression – I would then recall to him that I did ask for his input and remind him of his response.
He still does it though – and I am still always careful to say right from the start “is there something you would prefer to do instead?” This leaves the door open for him to negotiate with me, or for him to make a decision for himself. The times I find more difficult to deal with is when he won’t respond at all – it becomes a situation of “I am damned if I do, and damned if I don’t”.
Nevertheless I have learned over the years to go ahead with what I want to do if I have given him the opportunity to negotiate, and have been given the “easy going response” or the “non-response”, but I do remain prepared for the aggression later. If I give into his mind games “to make him happy”, then I would be handing over control of myself to him, and would be giving him unhealthy attention. I also am entitled to “have a life” filled with pleasant experiences, and to work toward achieving my goals.
Have you been able to see your son’s head mistress/nun yet? If so, I hope she was able to give you the support and understanding you need during this difficult time – and especially for the well being and pastoral care of your son. Maybe she will be a valuable member of your support network in future?
With respect to what your husband may be addicted to – maybe it is not substance abuse, porn, gambling or some other vice – maybe it is addiction to fame, fortune and the “limelight” – and his computer/business?
My husband, to my horror, enjoys and strives to be in the company of the rich and famous – he equates this with success. This company he keeps is frequently filled with people of narcissistic tendencies – each striving to be the centre of attention. Many of them are so fake I just want to “puke”.
I have often said to my husband I don’t enjoy that sort of company – I love our old circle of friends – the friends we have had nearly all our married life – the ones that are unpretentious, honest and caring.
However, my husband continues to be drawn to the rich and famous like a “moth to the light” and he has already been burned badly once before, but he is still attracted to that limelight! His obsession with this league of people was really at an all time high during all of last year and coming up to Christmas 2008 – and guess what – he was especially cold, arrogant, rude, disengaged, haughty, sulking, and verbally aggressive toward me during that period of time – talking like a single man leaving me questioning whether he was planning separation and divorce.
He was also behaving very fake, confabulating,very full of himself and theatrical – like he was so important, entitled, and above everyone and everything. After having learned so much about Narcissism since early this year I now believe that when he finally did say he wanted a divorce but wanted us to continue in business together, and not to have a divorce settlement – that he was wanting to maintain his successful businessman persona and material wealth to stay up there in that league of people.
Unaware of that possibility due to not knowing about Narcissism, but at the time only out of concern of what was best for me – I had responded that I would not continue in business with him, that we would divorce and our marital assets would be split up hopefully in a fair and amicable divorce settlement. My husband was shocked that I was not just going to go along with what he wanted (I see now as to maintain his “image”).
I now can see how much I had been used over the years to build our business and financial success – I have put in about 60-80 hours a week since 1983! My husband believes he is entitled to all the credit and accolades of our success instead of sharing it with me – we both have contributed and worked very hard to achieve what we have. His agenda was all along it seems to be rich and famous, a person of power, importance and control – and in doing so he had been exploiting me all along, all while showing very little respect or gratitude towards me – but why should he because I in effect accepted his maltreatment and sacrificed my well-being by doing everything I could to “make him successful and happy”.
When I said no to his proposal it was like I pulled the rug out from under his agenda – he came back to earth with a jolt – and he then retracted from wanting a divorce. Not prepared for or wanting divorce at the time, and with my father gravely ill, I was an emotional mess, I also opted to stay in the marriage, and to do as much work as I could to build a healthy relationship. My Personal Bill of Rights is extremely important to me – and I have learned how to more assertively protect my boundaries – in return I am being respected more and more as I grow in this area.
There has been improvement, but I remain exhausted from being constantly on guard against Narcissistic behaviour. I can’t change him – I learned that many, many years ago – I can only change myself and the things in my life that affect me. I found Kim and Steve’s latest radio show on “Facing Your Codependence” very inspiring and I am keen to get their 10 Steps and to work on them.
“The only difference between a dream and a goal is a time-line.”
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Everyone,
In recent postings – I have noticed that there have been many people struggling over financial security/control/independence. Is it possible to visit your credit card provider/banking institutions/taxation office/creditors/etc and have your financial affairs separated from your Narcissist?
Get rid of as many joint accounts/credit cards as possible. Have his name removed from your credit card if he is an additional card holder. If he really needs a credit card he should have his own and be responsible for payment of it too. Get advice from a banker/solicitor/ accountant/etc. Write letters to creditors cancelling credit/trading accounts that are in joint names.
When purchasing an asset with your money, do so in your own name so it cannot be used as collateral for loans/credit cards & applications, etc in his name.
I have been fortunate to manage our accounts all these years, and I am trained and qualified to do so. I would be very nervous about giving control of my own financial/taxation affairs to a husband/partner who has narcissistic tendencies (since they are frequently known to be dreamers, high-flyers, always out to get fast or big buck with little concept of reality when it comes to the financial “crunch” and sometimes with questionable honesty).
I do not advocate that you look after your Narcissist’s financial affairs – but to at least be in control of your own – and not to bail your Narcissist out if he gets into financial trouble – in other words, make him stand on his own two feet by getting him in touch with reality and by making him accountable.
Taking these steps may encourage him to achieve financial independence from you by getting a real job instead of pursuing “get rich quick schemes”. If he lacks personal or work skills challenge him to develop or improve on those skills by getting educated.
Also challenge him to learn accounting principles, and methods of book-keeping including computer programs designed for that purpose.
I appreciate there are varying degrees of financial strain in each relationship, and that there are shared expenses when living together, but seriously I would not let someone who is emotionally immature and full of self-interest manage most or all of my financial income and interests – it is a potential recipe for your own financial disaster all while you may have been working and bringing in an honest income and living modestly yourself.
“Never do for someone what they could or should do for themselves.”
Good Luck & Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
I am glad I found this website. I was married for 38 years, and am now a vibrant, sexy, athletic, engaging 65 year old with tons of confidence.
I left the marriage in 2003. I, at first blamed him for whatever “didn’t work”. I have since taken responsibility for my contribution. I had covered up my feelings for all those years. I did everything to/for him. I allowed him to passify me with false promises and passive aggressive behavior. We were in counseling for 7 1/2 years. After counseling The overt, abusive behavior ceased.( I don’t ever remember hearing the word narcissistic applied towards my husband.) Our day-day relations were good.
I have recently become attracted to,in the most compelling way, a man that I am sure is narcissistic to some degree, as well. I have kept a journal for 1 1/2 years and made a note of this red flag early on when I first met him.
His first wife of one year, committed suicide. His 2nd wife died of cancer. He was in a tumultous relationship – on-again-off-again for 6 years, when I met him. Because of our mutual, varied interests, I saw him several times a week. We did a lot of flirting. I put out bids to him, he put out bids to me. I set up boundaries and would not go to his house because he had too much to drink. I told him another time. In the meantime, he met another gal online,less than a month after his breakup, and he has been with for almost one year. He has cheated on her, he has blamed others and not taken personal responsibility. He claims that the cheating was one time only. He distorts the truth and manipulates. He has been abusive in emails and phone conversations with his women. The current one is in love with him. I tried to talk to her. I am sure he manipulated the situation so that she would not believe me or any “impartial” person who was aware of his cheating. She, in a brief second, told me she was breaking away, but it was sooooo hard. He has all the props and money he needs to woo her back with great nights and vacations, and he does, probably telling her she’s the only one and he loves only her.
I believe he is just going through the motions with her. She very definately is his NS. She was over-the-top at first, with the overt adulation. I’m sure when it doesn’t continue with the same intensity, that is when they have “issues”.
I seem to be attracted deeply and unconsciously to narcissistic men. I am working to get the best education I can so that I protect myself. Are those of us who have had troubled families of origin and who are in the helping professions, (teaching or degrees in psychology,) are we more likely to “want to help or fix these wounded birds?” This attraction to him was at a core, very unconscious level. It is still there. I still continue to see him and his girlfriend at group functions. I give “I” messages, which I have used since early counseling. I have boundaries of the behavior I will accept.
I have gone through EMDR therapy since my divorce, which I think has helped tremendously with my self esteem. I am in a great place. I am establishing boundaries for myself and am learning to be “selfish”. This is HUGE!
Hopefully, my two, adult sons, will not have their father’s narcissism and my support of that narcissism for so many years affect them too much. I will study their situation with new “eyes”.
I am learning and growing everyday. I am compelled to fit all the pieces of the puzzle together so that I get a better understanding of who I am. I am on the road to finding a really good, caring, empathetic man! I think I am pretty good at spotting the narcissistic man. One of the first things this latest guy told me on our first date was, “I’ve hurt women. I haven’t wanted to.” That was one of the red flags.
To ALLISON: thank you for acknowledging me. I’m doing ok actually now, but there are times the N’ism just really bugs the crud outta me, ya know?
This ENTITLEMENT they have really is for the birds! Everyone needs to do his or her share, not expect people to be their slaves just cause they think they deserve it. My husband…ugh sometimes, just ugh.
I was just feeling ignored in a lot of ways so I appreciate that you dropped me a line. Thank you again.
Laura, I can understand your feeling of being ignored. I think maybe not everyone writes back to what someone said here but we read it and think about it. What you said about entitlement and being a “slave” is so true. My husband likes me to serve lunch or breakfast to him in bed. He likes me to stay there with him to provide conversation while he eats too. Most of the time I do not do this unless he is sick.
My husband is odd though because he can be fairly nice to me for about 2-3weeks a month and then I go through 10 days of pure hell where he, yells at me, puts me down and is demanding. Then when that time frame is over, he slowly becomes somewhat pleasant again but life is still about him. It is his monthly what I call a “snit”. Haha
He thinks life goes right back to normal after the snit with no apologies or anything. I am saying no to that because the verbal abuse kind of kills emotional and physical intimacy with someone. Everytime he has a reason why it happened the way it did. Everytime he says to me “cant we just forget about the past and move forward?” Sad for him to be so locked into his awful behavior and not be able to see it.
Hang in there and take care of YOURSELF.
Life right now is very tricky for me. I just found out that I owe $660 from the college I was attending before I switched to a local one. It is to cover tuition that the grants and loans did not cover. My husband said “tell em to sue us cause we can’t pay ANY of it!” So, I wrote and told the lady what he said and explained my circumstances again. I have no clue what will happen next, but God knows and is in control.
As for my husband, I have not been intimitate with him in some time and I do not sleep with him anymore either. personally, I got sick of being told “all the books say you are supposed to respond THIS way,” as if I am some sort of defective toy. I am tired of being used and made to feel defective, so I sleep alone and actually DO sleep now instead of getting his knee pounding down on my chest when he flips over and it falls on top of me.
I really still have no clue how Kim and Steve have worked this stuff out…I work it out by TOLERATING this man and doing what I can to remember he is SICK and might never change. Secretly, I long for better days though…I really do!
Laura, I try to think of my husband as a child throwing a temper tantrum when he doesnt get his own way. I am struggling with still loving him but not his behavior. I was starting to lose myself because of him verbally beating me down. I think we have to be careful not to lose ourselves while we are waiting and hoping our husbands will change. There is not alot of encouraging material out there about narcissists changing except for Kim and Steve’s.
Hi Laura,
Although I haven’t directly responded to your posts in the past, I hope that you may have got some support from postings I have made to others. Each one of us here tries to help others by writing about our own lives by sharing our own experiences, frustrations, hopes, strengths, weaknesses, successes, and failures (the latter of which I prefer to call “future challenges”).
Where we have been caught up in the past analysing what makes our partner happy or unhappy and pivoting our life around that analysis, many of us are just in the early stages of shifting our focus onto ourselves and what we need to do to find happiness within ourselves instead of through our partner – all while living with a partner who is most likely not working on their own personal growth (because they have not been sufficiently compelled to do so) and therefore they are continuing to behave with self-absorption , irresponsibility, and perhaps immorality.
Well done for pursuing your College education – how long before you finish? This is a healthy goal to strive for – hopefully financial strain does not delay you from achieving this goal. Are you fully financially dependent on your husband? If so, would you consider writing to your previous College again and tell them that even though your husband is not able to pay the $660 bill, that you would like to pay when you can and is there some arrangement that you can come to with them? I believe it is important to protect your OWN reputation at all times (even if your husband is taking an opposite stance on the payment of this bill).
How have you tackled getting the pornography out of your home? It is a difficult one – Kim and Steve have many excellent articles and audios on this. Are you able to draw a line in the sand with your husband? Are you able to tell him that it is not acceptable to you to have pornography in your home? And to tell him that you would like to have an intimate and sexually fulfilling relationship with him, but you feel you cannot because his use of pornography destroys your desire to be intimate with him? Of course, if he is addicted to pornography, he will perhaps not easily let go of this addiction. Try not to be hurt or upset if he does not let go easily – his addiction is not about you – but pursue the fact that pornography is harmful, it statistically destroys relationships, it is two dimensional and nothing more than empty FANTASY. Tell him that you are a REAL person, a warm blooded woman with REAL needs and that he can satisfy you without the need for pornography (said just in case he has feelings of sexual inadequacy) and that you have a lot to give him in return, and that you miss the guy you fell in love with.
Remain calm and respectful toward him at all times (even though you might feel angry, hurt and frustrated underneath). Pick your time and place, and be well prepared emotionally to tackle this.
Remember to breathe – and to choose your language carefully, keeping your voice low and controlled – free of blame and ultimatums. You can do this by focussing on what you want for yourself, for your future, your health and well-being. Be clear about your moral standards and what is acceptable to you and what is not.
If he warms towards you, tell him that you are wanting a healthy and loving relationship with him from now on and for that to happen you want to immediately block access to pornography sites on his computer (if he has a computer that is, and he should not then have the password to the blocking feature). Have pornographic type phone numbers barred from your telephones – including mobiles/cell phones. Get rid of all pornographic books and pictures – burn them, dump them or do with them whatever you want that would be therapeutic for you too – shred them and feed them to the worms and watch your garden grow! Pornography can be an expensive habit/addiction too. If he agrees to your terms – you know what to do next! But remember to forgive and forget, put the past out of your mind, enjoy and heal yourselves day by day!
If he does not want to give up his pornography addiction – who in your support network would he least like to know about this?? Tell them, and seek their support, and tell him also that you have sought their support if you consider it safe and/or necessary to do so.
“The quickest way to success is to behave your way to success!”
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Everyone,
I have just purchased and read Kim’s 10 Steps to Overcome Codependence. In Kim’s established tradition, she has produced yet another powerful tool to point us in the right direction toward emotional maturity and personal success. While I feel like I am mostly on the right track these days, Kim’s material always provides something new for me to consider and/or learn. I can’t wait now to find the time to listen to the 3 audios that come with this purchase. Congratulations & well done, Kim, and thanks again to you and Steve for devoting so much of your lives to help others like me.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
CD,
Thank you for your post to me.
First of all, my husband has been addicted to pornography since we first met, so it’s not likely to be something he gives up at all, let alone easily. Porn was how my husband learned about sex in the first place as a child. It is cemented into him.
Yes, I wrote back to the school and told them that I’d be willing to pay the $660 out of my stipend money from my Living Expense check I’ll be getting from my current college. I thought it was the right thing to do too, but I’m used to bills going unpaid by him. If it weren’t for my brother in law paying our back taxes and buying our house and property back, we would not have a house right now…a guy bought the back taxes and we were about to lose our house not long ago.
This man I married has ruined friendships, destroyed job opportunities and careers for me, killed pets, and basically, I do not WANT to love him or work things out…I just sometimes want OUT!!! That’s where I’m at now.
I’m glad things worked out for Steve and Kim, but I do not even have money to buy any audios from them, because my husband will not go and get a better job that covers basic living expenses so the bills are paid on time.
People who are not truly married to narcissists, seem to still think they respond to normal threats, or reasoning, or gentle words…they just don’t…they do not care and they rarely change! I just want to get my college degree, land an awesome job, grow my youngest daughter up, and LEAVE here.
Thanks for your caring comments, everyone
Hi Kim
Im new to this site and have found it very helpful wish i had found it sooner.My husband of 18years has been a complete nightmare. We were told that he had Narcissim about 3years ago which i had never heard of before and he felt that there wasnt anything wrong with him but it was all me. I was a full time mum for 15 years of our marriage and found that things started to go wrong once i had started to work and found Jacky again. I still included him in my work new friends but it still was not enough. i left him 15 months ago as i didnt have the knowledge tht i have now and move a few streets away with our youngest daughter. Im finding myself still drawn into his web. For the last five months we have progressed from shouting to talking he tells me that he still finds me attractive and still love me but he cant trust me for walking out on him and for leaveing the two teenagers with him, i asked my other two children if they wanted to come but they choose to stay the children and i have a very good relationship. i have kept my door open to them and they come and visit whenever they like. i have tried to do birthdays family gatherings with their dad at my home to let them see that we can talk but this has been one sided. My husband has a girlfriend which has an on of relationship and he has lied about her and said that its not serious. We have gotten intermit and he knows how i feel but i always ended up been hurt, as i would love to get help and tell him about his problem and to put all the wrong things right but whenever we touch on this he goes in the opposite direction. He still likes to know how i spend my spare time and although i have told him that im not interested in finding another relationship im continuosly asked. Why do i still have feeling for this guy after the way he treats me and the verbal abuse that comes with it. we have know each other for 22years half of my life has been spent with this person. Its coming up for another weekend he has our daughter and im on my own , i havent made many friend and the ones that i have made all have families. i have done counseling on my own and it has helped but it hasn’t given me the answers. I feel lost and along
Hi Laura,
In my situation, my goal is to take back from my narcissist my power over myself because I learned many years ago that I was powerless over his addiction to alcohol and the behaviour associated with it which is narcissism.
Every time I reacted to his unacceptable behaviour with anger, tears, disrespect, yelling and screaming, not only did I widen the rift that had developed between us over his addiction, but I also gave my power away to him when I had misguidedly thought that my yelling and screaming should knock some sense into him. It never did. In fact he used my behaviour to justify his own. I also must have looked very unattractive to him – and I know in myself that I did not like losing my temper, dignity or grace – but being emotionally immature at the time – I would lose it only to regret it later, and I would suffer deep remorse and guilt while taking full responsibility for the crisis – cycled with justifying my behaviour by saying to myself (and sometimes to him) “but he MADE me lose my temper”. In actual fact no-one MAKES us do anything – we CHOOSE our own behaviour – they way we react negatively or the way we respond positively or assertively.
It took a long time for me to accept that I have no control over his addiction – I cannot change him, only he can change himself. So where did that leave me? Powerless? Hopeless? Trapped? Then many years ago after a long period of self-growth in Al-Anon, I gradually learned that I was powerless over him but I was not powerless over myself, that there was hope for ME, and that led to freedom whether I stayed in the marriage or not.
As I changed my attitudes and priorities, and became more secure within myself – no matter what external forces threatened that security from time to time – I regained my power over myself. My codependence increasingly diminished and I was then able to take a stance on not caretaking my husband. For example – there had been many times when he arrived home so drunk that he wasn/t able to scratch himself even if he wanted to, he was incoherent, horribly abusive and physically intimidating.
Then one day, after having learned in Al-Anon how to find solutions to my problems, I informed him calmly and clearly in a respectful way while holding eye contact, that if he was arrested for drink driving I would not bail him out. He thought I was joking at first, but I held eye contact and he soon realised that I meant what I said. He has taken great care since then not to over-indulge if he is going to drive – however I would think he would be over the limit most of the time – but my stance has not changed because of a reduction in his alcohol consumption.
This was the first of many stances I had to take against his alcoholism, and each time I did I could literally see guilt on his face – that he knew he had a problem (even though he constantly denied it), and that the problem was now RESPECTFULLY being put squarely back on his lap to deal with – and most of the time he lifted his game.
Now I don’t want to take any credit, nor be given any credit, for any changes he has made in himself – that credit belongs to HIM. He may have made changes in response to my stances, but he had to make that choice for himself BY HIMSELF.
I realised many years into the marriage that he would have been an alcoholic when I married him, but back then I thought it was something he would grow out of like the rest of us. Unfortunately he did not. His addiction is just the same as any other addiction. I did not cause it, and I cannot change it, but I had to learn how not to perpetuate it.
I did however change myself from having sought my happiness through him in the past, to finding happiness within myself. My power to do that in part lies within defining clear boundaries of what is and what is not acceptable behaviour to me, and what the consequences will be for unacceptable behaviour that I will put into action. Just the same way we parent a child in a healthy way. We should not deliver the consequences of unacceptable behaviour to a child by yelling and screaming at them, nor beating up on them, nor by belittling or putting them down, nor other negative type reactions. We should deliver our consequences in a clear and respectful way, keeping our voice low and controlled. This applies to our life partner as well – whether narcissitic or not – they are human beings just like us, with shortcomings just like us.
I know my husband suffered emotional and verbal abuse as a child and (I witnessed it) when he was a young adult from his narcissistic father. It is no wonder he has had huge problems with his own negative, abusive and offensive behaviour through his adult life – and he has hidden his true-self all these years behind a mask of over-confidence, self-assurance and inflated ego. He constantly reacts to external forces – he cannot cope with any level of constructive or negative criticism – but he sure can dish negative criticism out with a hide as thick as a rhinosaurus to take the focus off himself!
Recently he has admitted to having had a very bad gambling addiction too in the early years of our marriage which I didn’t know about – but it sure explains now why I was given very little money at the time to feed and clothe the family and pay the bills – sometimes we were in very dire straits. It also explained the aggression he had towards me (out of guilt, inadequacy & fear of exposure) if I asked back then where all the money was going besides on alcohol and cigarettes – which was bad enough without gambling too. It was a nightmare. It wasn’t until I got control of the finances when we started out in business together that things improved. There were times when he would steal money from me – even before we were married – and blame it on a “break and enter” when there was no evidence of that – but I was so trusting/codependent that I believed him! That never happened again when after yet another “event” I tried to call the police in to investigate – he stopped me – he said there was not enough money missing to worry about it – if only I knew then as much as what I know now I would have followed through with the police! We did have a real robbery some years later though and the police were called in!
I agree with you Laura, we cannot change our narcissist. But I expand on that belief that our narcissist can change themselves when sufficiently compelled and inspired to do so. It is not our job to “save” or “fix” them, but if we choose to stay in the relationship, even for a short distance, isn’t it better to look for more positive interaction?
The narcissist must suffer the consequences of his actions – he must not be protected. If my husband’s actions affect me negatively then I must find a way to deal with it positively to protect my OWN health, safety and well-being. It is not easy!
Through your subscriber link to thelovesafetynet.com website you will find many audios that are free for download when Kim and Steve used to broadcast on Internet Radio Australia. These audios are extremely good – I hope you will listen to them and find them as valuable as I did whether or not you stay in your relationship.
Click on “The Love Safety Net Radio – Our popular archived radio shows”
On the next page scroll down and click on “Go to archive”
On the next page you will see and extensive range of free radio shows to select from and download.
Some of the shows still say “coming soon” and I hope they do because I have found all the ones available of great value.
I have suggested in previous posts to others to record these shows to CD and play them on their car stereo when commuting – effective use of travelling time while learning about co-dependence & narcissism.
Good Luck and Stay in Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD
I greatly appreciated your last email and found it helpful because I am still trying to figure out how to balance love and consequences. The consequences seem to be easier to meter out but the love in my heart for my husband seems to be disappearing. I am not sure how you found that balance of staying in love and giving consequences lovingly to someone who is verbally/emotionally abusing you?
Any insights will be appreciated.
Hi Joyanne,
That is a very good question constantly on the minds of everyone who posts to this website, including me.
My self-analysis is that when I met my husband 34 years ago, I fell in love with the man I believed to be his authentic self – kind, sensitive, humorous, charming, trustworthy, strong, intelligent, talented, independent, hard-working, adventurous, handsome, attractive, loving and much more. He still has all of those qualities in him, and I continue to love him for those qualities.
When I married my husband I believed my love for him would conquer the difficulties he had with his father and his deep hurt associated with that, and the difficulties he already had with his alcohol abuse that I naively thought he would grow out of. Many years later I was to discover that he used, and was addicted to, alcohol to escape from his pain. He also was addicted to cigarettes but gave that up when our children were small.
My love for my husband was real, but the nurturer in me also wanted to heal his pain, heal the hurt child in him and that was the co-dependent in me (which I did not know what that was back then) that just wanted to make him happy so we could both be happy. I would care-take, protect, beg, abuse, love, hate, cling, abandon and so on. The more I clung onto that fantasy and pointless behaviour the stronger his alcoholism/narcissism developed and the more our relationship deteriorated.
Serious damage had then been caused to the original love and attraction we had for each other, we had lost respect for each other and most of all we had lost sight of our true selves – our authentic selves.
History has it now that we both had just lost our way in a downward spiral of emotional immaturity and unhealthy ego. I don’t believe there is such a thing as a perfect marriage and life, but it had become a living hell until I found my way into Al-Anon and it took me a long time to learn, let go, soul search, forgive, shift my focus onto me and my goals, emotionally grow and mature, love and respect myself again, command instead of demand respect, and so on.
Getting real and finding our authentic selves and striving to achieve our individual goals is the true path to a fulfilling life and loving relationships, and the more we succeed at that the more chance we have to heal our relationship, and the more chance we have to build trust and attachment. This is also a time when we reassess why we are in the relationship, how can we love if our partner continues to abuse us? Each one of us has to find our own answer to that. My answer to me is not simple. Firstly there is a bond there that wavered (but did not disappear entirely even though at times I thought it might) with my self-growth over the years. Secondly each time I protect my boundaries assertively and respectfully, he responds positively more often than not these days. Thirdly, not only is he my lover and my husband, the father of my now adult children, but he is my business partner and many people depend upon us for their livelihood – it is not a decision to take lightly to go our separate ways, and if there is a chance that we can rise above this disorder, then we will strive for that. Finally he has been mostly operating at the level of unhealthy “ego” all his life, and it is not easy for him to change, and he has been questioning his behaviour and motives since I have followed Kim and Steve’s program and protected my boundaries in a clearer and more positive way.
I still love the man I fell in love with and continues to be (in between bouts of projected hurt and abuse). I wrongly believed I could heal the hurt child in him back then. I no longer believe I can do that now, but I can provide a safe and predictable environment for him to heal and grow in – if and when he chooses to do so. Children test healthy boundaries, but trust healthy boundaries also when they are enforced with respect and tough love. Children respond well to respect. The same works for the child in an adult too.
I am also prepared to leave the relationship, even while still loving him, because I know full well that alcoholism is a progressive disease and despite his and my best efforts to stay together, we may have to part ways – not the outcome I would like, but the choice I may have to make for my own health and well-being.
There is no such thing as “perfection” because we humans are never perfect, and while we may give our best until we know better, each of us are entitled to be accepted for not being perfect, and being forgiven for making negative choices along the way.
Good Luck and Stay in Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi again Joyanne,
Just thought I would give you the short answer version of my last post, there is a saying that goes something like this:
“You cannot truly know and love another until you first truly know and love yourself”.
If you find your current form of love disappearing it is because you are finding out who you really are – your authentic self, and you are establishing and protecting your healthy boundaries more assertively now, and perhaps setting new goals for yourself. The form of love that would be disappearing is the unhealthy type of love. Any healthy form of love you have between you will gradually grow – there will be setbacks as change can “rock the boat” periodically for a while – and you will probably find yourself exhausted many times from practising “tough love” while perhaps needing huge amounts of patience (which is a virtue).
You will probably also find yourself reassessing your relationship many times over while you are growing and becoming stronger – none of us can know the future until we get there – but we need courage to accept the things we cannot change, and courage to change the things we can no matter what the outcome. (It is important to remember though that we can only change ourselves and “things” – we cannot change other people, only they can do that for themselves – and they may or may not do that in response to positive changes in ourselves.)
Good Luck and Stay in Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD
I read both of your posts several times to let them sink in. I have been going to counseling alone and I am making changes and maybe like you said that is why I feel differently. You are right about me setting new boundaries because I have had to work in that area.
It felt good to hear you say put into words an explanation for the changes in my life and who I am.
My husband I have been married only 18 mo. He has been verbally abusive monthly during that time mostly directed at me when we are alone. He recently changed that when he yelled at my daughter for asking for a piece of pizza. I had to ask her to leave the room and I asked him to stop yelling at her so he yelled at me instead. I stood my ground and when she was out of the room I walked away and told him we could discuss it another time when he was not so into it emotionally.
This past weekend was way over the top with him verbally attacking me and calling me stupid in front of my teenage daughters. They of course told him I am not stupid and it is wrong for him to treat me that way. So he turned on them and verbally abused them and in the process called them stupid also. I made a quick decision to get out of the house. We had to take the dog and went to a friends house for a few hours to let him calm down. We never know when he will be in this spiteful mood.
He is also bi-polar and has NPD. I am ready to give him an ultimatum of going back to his psychiatrist and getting his meds adjusted and we go to marriage counseling or we separate and he moves out. ( This is my house.)I have talked to his bro-in-law who is married to his bi-polar sister who has had to take a similar stance.
I know I love him but I also love myself and my girls. I know that I can’t continue life this way. It is not good for me or good for my daughters.
I am going to write out what I want to say because he interrupts me, talks over me and interrogates me to the point I forget my thoughts. LOL ( have a good sense of humor and that gets me through alot.)Not that I don’t cry, but I never cry in front of him anymore.
Thanks so much for putting that all into words, CD! And to EVERYONE here who shares their thoughts and lives. Its kind of like getting together with a bunch of girlfriends and sharing. We may not always have anything to say but we read the things you have wrote and we feel your pain through our own heartaches. We ponder what we have read and glean what we can for our own lives.
thanks
take care
Kim:
I am a 64 year old mother of a very serious narcissistic 42 year old son. He has also been diagnosed bi-polar but refuses to accept that diagnosis or take the Lithium prescribed for his illness. I found your sight while googling, in an effort to seek support for myself. Most of your information is on a marital relationship between the narcissist and spouse. Are there any sites for parents of adult children who have this problem? I relate to the spouse vs spouse, my relationship with my son is exactly how you describe it. I could choose to walk away from my son but I have three grandchildren who are suffering daily from his problems.
He constantly makes me feel like I am the crazy one and it’s not easy to convince myself that I am not. His dis-respect and his control issues have been worse as my husband and I get older. He uses his 6 year old daughter as his weapon against us and it is so hard trying to figure out how to help ourselves, muchless him.
He is an absolute mad man, got any suggestions?
Linda, Houston
Hi Joyanne,
Something else that may help you is to listen to Kim and Steve’s radio program called “Ultimatums” and it is found on the Lovesafetynet.com website as a free download. I wrote to Laura on this page recently showing how to find this and other extremely good radio shows on Kim & Steve’s Lovesafetynet website. After listening to that show I really find it easier to remain focussed and to address my husband’s aggressiveness from a different level.
You obviously are dealing with a very difficult double-whammy by the sound of it with your husband having a combination of Bi-polar and NPD. He must feel very out of control and inadequate at times, especially when in company – being aggressive makes him feel “in control” which obviously he is not.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD
Hi,
I’m having a really hard time getting over this latest indiscretion and trying to coexist with this man who repulses me at the moment. I have discovered in therapy that I value “family” right now over the value to have a “partner” and that is why I am still hammering away at this. Most of the time lately though it feels like I’m living as a single mother anyway, exept I get tortured by his crazy behavior and can’t run away. I guess it feels worse. If I am going through this anyway on my own AND EVEN WORSE he’s around to “aggrivate” the situation it’s worse than being alone, I feel.
I do need his financial support right now so that really sucks. I keep thinking back to all those times my mom tried to encourage me to gain my independence and I cowered and continued to rely on him for everything… what a mistake in retrospect. Oh well.
I can’t seem to let go of the fact that he got his hands on my credit card and bought into another business opportunity. I have taken many steps to rectify the situation, but the fact remains that now he is moving forward in a different direction so full of his narcissistic supply that I am horrified. I can’t change the fact that he did what he did, but I can’t let go. I can’t look at him, I certainly can’t touch him, and I have no respect for him at the moment. I am disgusted by him in all accounts. This has been going on for almost a month now and I’m stuck. I don’t want him to live here anymore and I don’t want to see him.
I’m so angry and I don’t know what to do to get centered again. I can’t find my patience. Every time he goes out “to a meeting” to “work on a deal” to do all of the things I let him know I was NOT supportive of at this time I lose it. I want to let go and coexist with him without the disgust because it’s eating me alive. I go to the gym and feel better for taking care of me, I go out for dinner with friends, I work on out finances, but as soon as I see him I feel repulsed. I don’t know what to do… Any advise?
You know what Laura,
I feel like you do right now I think… the entitlement is so ridiculous. I keep meaning to go back and read that book that really helped me over the summer but I have been so busy trying to manage the downfall lately. Even when I take time for me I can’t escape him. Every step forward I take he throws me back at least three. I’m drowning in this disease at the moment. I know why I stay, obviously he’s still worth something to me. I’m beginning to get really scared that the damage our relationship is doing to our 2 young girls is far worse that a divorce would be…
Hi, I’m a codependent husband and I’ve also seen the tendencies for that narcissistic thing in me too. I had a real hard time to come clean to my wife these addictions I had, but God said the only way I could get free was to tell her the truth. I told her and it freed me and I haven’t had those particular problems, but I see the fear of comeing clean as an almost imposible thing. This fear is how it can take over someone who is codependent because they are afraid of losing the ones they care about. I really don’t understand how people can just not care about the feelings of the people in their life. I have seen it, I just don’t get it. I thought my wife would be close enough to the truth to come down off of her high horse, but she didn’t even like the fact that I was studying this stuff and she didn’t care who wrote it. She just thinks that sycology (how ever it’s spelled) is a load of crap. She does admitt that she is mean to our kids and I, but says if we don’t like it she could just leave since she’s the problem (of course she somehow turns it around to be a sarcastic statement and makes the kids and I to have the problem). It’s obviosly our incompadence that makes her superier to us. She says of course I’m not perfect, I’m just better at everything than you. She is a wonderful woman in public as long as I let her lead, but she says I’m not smart enough to run things as good as her. (I know that’s not true, but what’s actually happening is she wants it done her way and don’t care what is right or wrong). Any way I know there is hope and was encouraged to hear other people go through the same stuff. (not that I’m glad anybody else has to experiance this, but that I’m not alone).
Thanks and don’t ever give up!!!
As I read your post, James, everything in me is screaming 2 things: Get counseling and Get out (or at least remove the children from that situation).
The damage that occurs to our children as a result of living with people who are mean to them, is almost beyond repair in the later years.
I think maybe it’s time to ask yourself what the pay-off is for staying with this woman. It’s one thing if the spouse abuses his “equal” (the other ADULT), but when the abuse starts touching the children, it’s time for a huge change, ultimatum, help, something!
Kim and Steve, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything about how Steve’s narcissism affected your children if you have children. Please share if so.
Hi Shannon,
I apologise for taking so long to reply. The best answer I can give to your first question of “what happened when I decided not to leave” is best answered in our radio show here,
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/lovesafetynet/program7.php
There is a transcript to read or a radio show to stream.
The issue of dating sites is a real problem. If you and he have a strong attachment, he does not need this service. I know that there is a big temptation for guys (and girls) to test the water to see if they can still attract the opposite sex. However, if you and he are to survive this profile has to be removed and his attention and efforts need to be re-focused back into home. I am not sure exactly how to initiate this. When Kim found me talking with other women on-line, (social networking, not a dating site, but not really much difference) she sent a very polite and revealing letter to the particular woman I was talking to. It was rather embarrassing for me, and I learned my lesson. Very sobering. I am a lucky guy, Kim continued to show her affections to me and that made a difference.
Steve
HI Laura,
Answering- “Kim and Steve, I don’t think I’ve ever read anything about how Steve’s narcissism affected your children if you have children. Please share if so.”
Yes, I could talk about this for days. My poorest narcissistic behaviour marginalised my family in nearly every way, financially, socially, emotionally, you name it. The simple answer is that narcissism is very much a ‘moving against’ style. This concept is from a book called “The Friendship Factor” by Alan Loy McGinnis. This behaviour describes how one person will pull away from the team (ie the family), and that is how I would behave. It was a bad example for my kids and our oldest son is very much caught in the same kind patterns now. We are competing with a huge amount of supply he is getting from high school and he is beginning to pull away from us in more ways than one. Our 11yo daughter is showing similar signs, yet she is more attached to us.
The kids are part of the team and in many ways they mimic the worst in us, which is infuriating, yet it is a good lesson for us.
Steve
Hi James,
I so admire your strength, courage and wisdom. I also wonder how long you have been studying this program – you are obviously a thinker, and now a doer – maybe male co-dependents “get it” quicker because men tend to think with logic rather than with their emotions – this is a well recognised thing in psychology (your spelling makes more sense – what’s with the “p” in front of this word anyway?).
Without exception, our experience in life is limited, and we may experience difficulties, so as human beings we reach out to others for help (if we are not too proud or too stubborn to take help that is). We search and search for answers according to the outcome we want – you obviously love your wife and in making the changes in yourself to improve your self-respect and self-worth you will one day COMMAND respect from your wife (which is different from “demanding” respect).
You are right that we fear to tell our partner the truth for fear of losing them, and I also think because they may become self-righteous, enraged, and bullying. You are also very, very right – the truth will set you free. You have admitted to your addictions and done something about it – and that takes great personal courage and strength, and faith in a power higher than yourself, which in your case is God.
You may find more shortcomings in yourself that you may want to change or improve upon for YOURSELF – but this does not mean that your shortcomings are the cause of your wife’s bad or inappropriate behaviour. Your wife, if narcissistic, operates from the level of unhealthy ego and may use, or have used, your shortcomings as a “get-out” clause from having to face her own shortcomings.
As you face your shortcomings and grow in a healthy way, the dynamic in your marriage will change, your wife will become more exposed to her own shortcomings, and she may ultimately find herself having to own and face up to her own shortcomings.
Kim and Steve said in one of their old radio shows, their children saw Kim operating from a position of strength (built from facing the truth) and their children learned good values from that, and they leaned mostly on Kim – the parent with honest and trustworthy strength – until after Steve faced his narcissism, developed into a person of honesty and trustworth strength, and they eventually built a strong and healthy marriage and family unit.
The point is that you are working on improving your self-worth and self-esteem with positive and honest self-growth, and there will come a time when you will believe in yourself enough that you will deflect ALL negative criticism, insults and put-downs from those who are emotionally immature and perhaps spiritually bankrupt. But you will also remain compassionate and have empathy towards those that use such behaviour to mask their own personal struggles.
It is interesting that your wife admits to being mean to you and your kids – she is admitting to a shortcoming. But she goes on to say if you don’t like it she will leave you and the kids. That is her “get-out” clause from having to face her own shortcomings. I couldn’t count how many times my husband has used this sort of emotional blackmail over me in years gone by – but he has never left, not for more than a couple of days or so anyway, but always leaving full of drama and making a dramatic return saying he cannot sleep, using all sorts of emotional appeal/blackmail to get back in the door! I have looked harder at this emotional blackmail of threatening to leave, and decided that this was used because it worked ON me and worked FOR him!
Analysing that emotional blackmail further, what the narcissist is really saying is “I have this problem, and I feel powerless, and I don’t know what to do about it, because I might have to take my mask off and get out of my comfort zone and change my beliefs and attitudes, and I am scared of change, because I am always right and I am better than everyone else, and I am a fun person to be with and I don’t know how I will survive in a world that I don’t trust and may trust even less if I change.”
I therefore do not respond to the emotional blackmail of abandonment anymore. To do this I had to make changes in myself, and one of those changes was to face my fear of abandonment and rejection once I revealed that fear in myself (it is interesting though that the narcissist in my husband saw and manipulated that fear in me before I saw it in myself). In not responding to that emotional blackmail, I have taken away that narcissistic tool of manipulation, and left my husband wondering when he threatens abandonment “What do I do now? I don’t want to leave, she is not biting, but I have made this statement that I do not want to follow through on…”.
After a while of me not biting, he stopped threatening me with this for a long time, until last Christmas and I got caught up in it again. However, he did have real and not-so-real issues about the marriage, and he was perhaps very serious about leaving, but when it came to the crunch – he didn’t leave. He didn’t believe in all “that psychology crap” as he calls it too, but he did agree to marriage guidance counselling (after 34 years of marriage) and we did benefit from that strong male marriage guidance counsellor’s sessions.
He may leave one day – but I will be OK if he does because I can emotionally stand on my own two feet now.
I hope you stay in touch, James, it is good to hear from a guy in this situation that clearly displays not only intellect and emotional intelligence but compassion towards his wife and others – and take heart – things may get worse for a while, but they will get better as you truly work this program.
Take care,
CD.
Thank you Steve for talking more about the affect of narcissism on the children in your family.
In my case, I started marriage with a daughter who receive most of the physical abuse before the age of 4, until I finally put my foot down and refused to allow my husband to do it anymore to her. Unfortunately, there was a huge gap in bonding between my eldest daughter and him (she was not biologically his either)
Next, my 2nd daughter was vicious from the start. When I would scold her as a young toddler, she would turn and start hitting her older sister. I believe this was a form of “displaced aggression” and even later, projection on her part. She was one who would refuse to help me and then when her father came home, sweetly say “why didn’t you tell me you needed help. I would have helped you.” Unfortunately again, these types of young narcissists-in-the-making learn quickly how to pit parent against parent. In our case, I was the weaker one for too long, controlled by both my husband and her in many ways till she moved out with my granddaughter.
My 3rd daughter is reclusive, home-schooled, somewhat socially phobic, but we have a good relationship providing she isn’t with her older sister for too long. She is my “right-hand-man” in a lot of ways and is currently struggling to learn anything she can from highschool with a mental block.
My youngest is the outgoing one of the family. She is bubbly, funny, a singer, friend to several. She is the little “light” in the darkness here, and I have to be careful of her feelings because she takes things very personally. She begged me to stay with her father because she loves us both and doesn’t want us to fight anymore, so…..what can I say…I stayed, yes, FOR HER! I couldn’t bare to break her heart while she was too young to put her world back together if it fell apart.
I’m a child of divorce and I had an awful time trying to convince myself that I wasn’t the cause of it all. I didn’t want that for her.
~Laura
I spent some time last night responding on here, but I stoped for a while because my wife was attacking me and my coputer shut down while I was away. The whole message was gone. Well it was theraputic to type it down anyway.
to clearify my first message, the type of abuse I’m dealing with here is verbal and expressive mostly. She has started to beat me up once, but because I don’t hit females, she got made that I wouldn’t hit her back. She really hasn’t done it since then. I reallized today that the source of her problem was her step dad (he’s way worse than her). I did know years ago that she was abused this way when she was growing up, I just never connected the two. My oldest son (13) has the same problem. He is always bossing every one around (including me, but not my wife)I’ve had to punish him for bullying our other kids (hurting them because they won’t do as he tells them). I always thought he was just disrespectful and strong willed, but last night when I was trying to explain to my wife that her yelling was abusive, he walked in on us hearing what I was saying. He then laughs at me, telling me that I must be pretty stupid to think such things. He has never accepted me as his dad even though I’ve been his only dad for 9 years of his life.
Hi James,
Have you had a chance to listen to this week’s Globaltalkradio show from Kim and Steve with guest Maria Rodowski yet? The show is called “The Roots of the Dance”. It is excellent for shedding more light on narcissism and particularly narcissism in teenagers within the family unit.
Cheers
CD
Could I have some advise re my situation. I asked my narcissist husband to leave and I feel I have made the situation worse but I just could not cope with the abusive behaviour all my friends think I’ve done the right thing but I’m not so sure. What can I do to get stronger and win him back ?
No I haven’t had any time to listen to much of anything, because I’ve been to busy with the other problems I’ve been having. The economy claimed my job in Sept. and that’s claiming our house. We’re getting evicted right now so I’ve been having to pack, but I’ve been crying mostly. I do have good news though! My wife said she had enough of me trying to keep her accountable. (not letting her yell at the kids. I’ve been interupting her when she starts yelling and telling her that “I’m suppost to handle this stuff and it’s getting you to frustrated anyway so why don’t you go calm down and let me take care of it.”) Well she blew up at me a few hours after my last entry. I had went to the park accross the street from our house for a walk around the track. (walking really soothes me) I already had the kids to sleep and washed the dishes and swept the house. She was watching T.V. the whole time and seemed happy. (laughing at whatever she was watching.) Well; as I was walking back towards the house I noticed her standing in the driveway. I was taken by suprise when she started yelling at me from accross the street about how I’d rather be at the park than to be at home with her. Then she turned around and said she had enough of my stupidity and she was going to leave me. She said no one ever told her what to do and I wouldn’t be the first. She was saying since she couldn’t handle the kids she would leave the younger ones with me and send the older ones to their birth dad. (who by the way we havn’t seen since Jan. of 2001 or heard from him at all except once in 2006 wanting the social security #’s from the girls so he could claim them on his taxes. He never once sent her anything and wouldn’t even let us find him.) So I told her “fine; if that’s what you think will fix your problems, but I bet you’ll just find out that it will only follow you around where ever you go. I’m not sure how we got from their to the next, but the next thing I know she’s crying and going on about how sorry she was for being so mean to me and asking why didn’t I just leave her so many years ago. I told her that I love her and always have. these problems she is having isn’t her I can see it come and go. And besides; who else is going to help her through it. well; some how we got through it and went over all the great things about our relationship. We both healed so much (sometime around 3-4 this morning). She said she didn’t want to admit I was right because she couldn’t accept what I had been telling her, but as she was contimplating leaving she had this flash back of how cold the look was in her first husband looked her in the eyes and said the same thing she had just told me. well; the more she thought about it the more she started to see that she was treating me like her first husband had treated her in so many ways. Any way I’ve got to send the kids to school, I’ll write more later.
Hi Kim, I recently found your website after many years of searching. I am so grateful. I have been married for 18 yrs and unfortunatly my wife suffers from I beleive is NPD. I had no idea of NPD until recently. A pyscologist suggest something to me that inspired me to research, it was this research the I found out what narissism was. It was both a blessing to discover it and devestating read what the future can hold for both of us.
Up until a few years ago I was a strong person, successful, happy and had self confidence. I am now an absolute mess. I spend most of my lifetime self employed with my own business. I sold it a few years ago thinking our family had a very secure future and I could spend more time focusing on our family.
I made a dreadful mistake and invested most of our money into a family travel business with my wife as my partner. As you can likely predict the business was a absolute failure. After three years I have lost all my self confidence, self esteem and most of proceeds from the sale of my business. From my wife perspective the only impact of the business failure is a change in her narissism… for the worst, and I am now caught what seems is a hurricaine of issues and just do not know where to start. I feel completely defeated. I find it hard to even function with day to day tasks. Everyday I am confronted with a situation. I know I am now parinoid, I cannot distingish any truths and see my whole life collasping. I am losing my kids, friends and family. There is no empathy. AS I fall deeper in dispair, and I know it is evident from comments from friend and family, my wife is more critical of me than ever. I have finally realized she actually enjoys expoiting me and seeing me fall. Yet at the same time she turns on the charm.
I would love nothing more than spending the whole day laying out my story, knowing I have found this wonderful resource, But I would like to speak to two current issues that are most important to me, in hopes I can get advice. If I can move forward on these two, I think I will see some light.
1) We managed to sell what was left of our travel business 1 yr ago. At that time, we both had the opportunity to work for the lady that bought our business. I decided it was best not to work selling travel for the time being, thinking my wife needed the break from me and it was best for her. At that time the door was left open for me to return.
Once my wife starting working in this new office, she found her new Narssistic fix. She has since had one affair that I know of, her narissim has escalated x 10. Although I have a job now, it is not want I want to do forever. I want to go back and sell travel again for myself. I do not want to work where she works, just sell travel somewhere else. She is forbitting me from doing so, theatening to leave me and take kids if I do. I think she considers me a threat in someway as I was quite sussessful.
2) She is alienating me from my kids. They are 14 and 16. I had always believed she was a great mother. She was a stay at home mom and always found time to spend with the kids. I was a typical working person, spending what time I could when not working. Now I am home more with a regular job, I have more time with the kids. I have never been able to connect with them, after trying everything. After reading about Narissism I understand why. I now see what my wife is doing, she undermines me every chance she can get. A few examples. She says to the girls, ” You look like you are not happy these days (even when they are), you need mommy daughter time, dad cannot help”. She claims ownership to everything we have accomlished over the years in front of the kids, mainly when I am not around. Se tells them outright lies and exgagerates her importantance on every turn. Before it was behind my back, now she tells the lies in front of me, (she knows I am weak and will not respond). My kids do not speak to me anymore, all communication is addressed to my wife. How do I win my kids back? Do I address the lies with my wife or my kids?
I have just started reading your ebooks. They are an absulte blessing. Although I am, just starting I want you to know how grateful I am.
Patrick
Hi Marcia,
You need to focus all your energy on taking care of you first. If you haven’t already, check out Kim’s ebook, “Back from the looking glass” Also there are many resources on their site that can help you get a handle on you, like the radio shows & downloads….
You’ve probably spent so much time living in this “haze” because of the narcissism that you might have lost yourself along the way. You’re best bet is to redefine who YOU are, what your boundaries are, how you can learn to make yourself happy and learn about how narcissism has affected you personally. Then you will have tools to make better decisions about what it is that you really want in the situation with your narcissist.
Good luck!
Allison
Joyanne,
I haven’t read about or heard of any information regarding the “transformation” of a narcissist aside from Steve either. I think it’s quite a long process from start to mantainance. I’m not sure if Kim & Steve have said how long the process actually took from the time Kim made the decision to address the narcissim to the time Steve was able to manage his behavior appropriately…
I wonder, does anyone on this blog have a similar situation to Kim and Steve here? Or are we all in “working” mode to work the program and go through the process hopefull for change???
There are so many things about my husband that worry me, things that will never change. I fear that there is no real escape from the narcissism because how my husband wants to live and what he wants to do for work are centered around the narcissism. I can’t take it out of the equasion because it’s his work AND he gets all of his supply from his “career”. I often get very discouraged because of that. I can’t compete with it because he won’t change, and the more “successful” he is in business, the greater his ego gets and the less realistic he is at home. The bigger his ego is, the less engaged and interested he is in our family because he is doing such big and important things that there is no time to think about or respect the things that are little (to him). It’s a circle that I can’t stop running around in.
Any suggestions?
Allison
Hi Allison,
In our global talk radio show number 20 last week, we spoke about the concept of ‘scaffolding’. I say this because I am not sure if I have ‘transformed’ into the perfect man just yet. My initial reaction to many situations is often to become abusive and aggressive. I often self-censor sarcastic comments that pop into my mind, and sometimes I cannot censor them quickly enough. My secondary responses and ‘scripts’ now are much more appropriate than they once were.
The truth is that I am very narcissistic in many ways, as we all can be at times. The difference, or the transformation, now, is that I have a solid attachment with Kim and I trust her. She also trusts me. We have goals that we have set together, and I am lucky because Kim is a determined person and she usually gets what she wants. It is very cool having a tough woman around.
The difference between me and your man may be this; I am not cut out for the workplace in many ways. My narcissism has got the better of me in my previous jobs to the point where I have become embarrassed and unable to continue. My career now is very humble, yet full of challenges. I am in many ways my own boss but also in many ways a slave to the grind. I won’t find fulfillment in the corporate world because I’m not cut out for it. So, there is a difference between your husband and I here perhaps.
I know this is the most difficult of all of the balancing acts. How to bring a balance to the work-life equation, especially when there is career success occurring and also more success to be had. There will be resources out there on this topic, I don’t have any specific titles for you I am sorry.
My humble bit of advice to you is to set some goals for yourself. Do not take a back seat to his career, because you may never get the chance to drive. Imagine yourself hitting those goals, and see what changes may need to happen in order for you to achieve your own success. Make them realistic goals, but make them challenging too.
This circle you are caught in will not control you forever.
Steve.
Just want to offer a really good book to all of you who are wanting to survive your N’s in a healthy, spiritual way.
It’s called FOOLPROOFING YOUR LIFE by Jan Silvious
i’m going to be teaching from it on a forum known as Paltalk. It will be in audio/text.
Hi James,
Wow! You really do “get it”! It goes to show that all your wife’s puff and smoke was just really a smoke screen for her insecurities,inadequacies and inability to trust attachment! You are displaying great competence, one of the very things your wife accused you of not having, and it is that very competence that is going to help her, you and your family through this right now.
You have shown how much you really love her – she has tested your love until she knew that while you still loved her you were prepared to let her go if that is what she wanted, but you also let her know that if she went she would just take her problems with her, and that if she stayed you were there to be a strong guiding hand through this. You did all this with so much other strain going on in your life – such as losing your job due to the financial crisis, and now losing your home! I really feel for you at this time, but I also am marvelling yet again at the strength of the human spirit. You obviously have a great inner strength to cope with so many adversities at the same time, strengthened no doubt by your spiritual faith.
There will be setbacks, but try to remain focussed and lovingly firm as much as you can under the circumstances – it is the greatest and best example you can set not only to your wife, but to your children as well. You may be losing or have lost so much now by way of your job and your home, and you will grieve over those losses, but to your credit you are focussed on keeping your family together during this time which is more important than any material attachment can ever be. You no doubt will have another job in the future, but right now you are doing the most important job in the world, looking after and keeping your family together.
Good luck and stay in touch.
CD
Thank you so much for your response, Steve! I really appreciate you sharing your first hand experience. I especially needed to hear the part about not taking the backseat to his career… because that is exactly what I have done since I chose to be a stay at home mom for the past 6 years. I have spent years telling myself that once he “finds what he’s looking for” he’ll have time to re-prioritize his life. Since I started your program over the summer I’ve become aware that he might never “find what he’s looking for”, and that the “chase” is much more appealing to him than the end result. Hence, the advise to take charge and set my own goals and refuse to take the backseat – is simply PERFECTION, on your part. Great call. That really spoke to me, just the way it needed to!!!!
Thank you again, for sharing
I really appreciate you and Kim and all your work!
Allison
Hi Patrick,
How wonderful it is to see some guys entering this forum from the perspective of co-dependency.
My heart goes out to you Patrick – I have experienced a total feeling of hopelessness and worthlessness after having been subjected to years of oppression, and consequent depression, and it is not a nice place to be – but there is HOPE.
I too lost myself. I was a very capable and talented person, then lost myself – blinded by my husband’s “aura” of false ego, and seeming popularity, and by internalising my husband’s bullying or projected self-hate in the form of criticism, insults, put-downs and verbal abuse towards me. I didn’t know what all that “psychology stuff” was though at the time it was happening.
All I could see was that my husband was unhappy, not just with me, but with everything and everyone, and I thought by turning all of my attention to making him happy by making everything “right” for him, it would eventually make everything OK and we would then find happiness.
It was a downward spiral that led me to a “rock-bottom” where I was mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually exhausted – I became and felt powerless over my situation. This same rock-bottom then led me to a self-growth program (which helped me tremendously), and then many years later to Kim and Steve’s program which I found in about February of this year.
When I was at that rock-bottom many years ago – and through the self-growth program I was in – I had to realise that although everything seemed overwhelming and hopeless – that there was hope for me to recover from complete and utter despair.
When I reflect on those dark times I think how cruel it was that the less I valued myself – the more my husband abused me! I don’t know if he was being deliberately callous, or just didn’t realise what he was doing, or perhaps was simply so narcissistically out of touch with reality that he didn’t even acknowledge that I was a human being, or some other reason, or maybe all of the above.
All I know now is that it was a long and bumpy road back to valuing myself again, establishing healthy boundaries, and achieving goals that had become long lost dreams for many years. But it was worth travelling that road and putting in all the hard work that it took to bring me back to personal empowerment and success.
Make yourself your priority – that is something we can and all must do. Just take one day at a time for the moment, or even one minute at a time if necessary when things get really bad.
Assess and take care of your very basic needs initially – quality sleep, nutrition, relaxation, meditation, personal presentation, Omega 3’s and so on. Also be proud of your job, however humble it may be – it is not your identity – but it provides you with life’s essentials. You will know what the right thing to do will be as far as your business aspirations or career goes once you have become your own priority again, and got in touch with who you are and what you want for yourself and your future.
Self-soothe especially when faced with adversity, negativity or aggression – know that you will find solutions to your difficulties when you are calm, cool and collected. Getting caught up emotionally in the bullying games really hurts – but it also distracts us from focusing on what needs to be done.
I resolved that I had heard it all before, the topic may have changed but it was all about just “the same old, same old junk” – all the bullying, criticisms, insults, put-downs, etc that I had allowed to hurt me and had internalized before. I had to decide to choose not to even acknowledge “the junk” because I could see a bigger picture now. I had to consciously leave the “junk” where it belonged – with the bully (my husband) and that eventually diffused one of his narcissistic manipulative tools, and eventually commanded his respect somewhat.
In the coming days, read and learn as much as you can about Kim and Steve’s program, listen to their free audios, download them, record them to CD, play them in your car on the way to work and so on, they are extremely valuable to point you in the right direction. As each day passes you will become more and more aware of what is actually happening that is creating dysfunction or discord in your relationship and your family, and you will also start finding solutions to the various difficulties you are having in your life, and with your wife and your daughters.
It is not weak not to respond to taunting or abuse, especially if you feel too numb or too taken aback to respond. Throughout Kim’s audios you will find some great responses like:
“Your not better than me”
“I don’t like where this conversation is heading right now, we have been down that road before and it is distressing me and I have to… go to sleep/work/take a shower/etc right now”…or whatever it is you intended to do before the negativity started. Then without hesitation go ahead and do IT …walk away from the negativity and get on with your life.
If your daughters witness this you will be setting a good example to them on how to handle negativity, and they will also see the junk being left where it belongs – with their mother – you will also have a better chance of earning or restoring their respect and perhaps empathy towards you.
There is a lot to be done, but I have great faith in the truth and the strength of the human spirit.
“A journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step.”
Good luck and stay in touch.
CD
Hi all,
I haven’t contributed much on the board lately as I’ve been trying to really knuckle down and give my energy to Kim & Steve’s workbook and the challenges laid out before me.
As a result, I don’t expect many of you to be able to offer much advice or support. But perhaps my sharing and questions will help others. I know I feel better just reading what you all write.
CD – You’ve be a great boon to many people on here. You sound like you’ve worked so hard and come so far and have so much good, practical advice to offer people here. Bless you for that!
Kim & Steve – nice to see you are still doing so much for everyone. I am loving the Global Talk radio archives. They are really getting very good, very in depth about more complex problems and illuminating all those places we all have questions about here on the board. I re-listen to the older ones and constantly find things I missed, or things I got ‘in theory’ but not in practice. I’m gearing up to buy the co-dependence book, but I want a good grasp of the first level and a good clear window of calm time to look at the material with fresh eyes.
James & Patrick – you sound so sincere. I wish you all the best in what you are doing. Cling to Back from the Looking Glass, letters from Kim & Steve on this blog and their other sites, and the global talk radio shows. There is an incredible amount of resource here. I know that I comb through it and cling to the advice like a lifeline when things are confusing and rough. To have their single, united voice, speaking logic and reality and truth and courageous ‘growing up’ is immeasurable. These lessons are about learning what real love is – for yourself and for your family. My only regret is not having found them sooner.
My N partner suffered a nervous breakdown recently. It came out of years of us fighting now, doing all the wrong things. I’d started really practicing Kim and Steve’s advice (not just bits of it)and things became calm and safe. He became closer and then it seemed like the walls started tumbling down. He has always suffered from (what I consider) high anxiety (nervous ticks, blinking etc). when things finally calmed and I was withdrawing my energy from the fighting and into the attachment, trust, goal setting and achieving for myself (4 legged stool) etc and my children – he broke. His anxiety turned into full blow panic attacks. He’s so used to living off of adrenaline dumps. It got so bad, he was afraid to leave the house. He was having panic attacks in front of my eyes while he was suppossed to be leading meetings at work (he’s a director here!). I’m sure you can imagine how frightened and terrified he was. He couldn’t go into a shop for milk or have a repair man around to the house. He was having about 10 panic cycles a day. He had to take nearly 2 weeks off of work.
During this time, I worked hard to help him. I set little challenges and he acted and did very loving things of his own volition (like coming to my house when I was at work and cleaning my daughter’s room from top to bottom – they’re young so it was a crazy mess). He became very affectionate with me again and with my girls.
Long story short, over a couple of months, we’ve been getting very close. Because we’re in two houses, I was finding that we were spending lots of time at his because it’s bigger/better/etc there. But my own home was neglected and it was causing me and the children stress (I think that’s why he came and cleaned that week). I also began to get a bit scared about what growth would look like for us. I’d enjoyed all of this quality time and getting so close again. My children were thriving in it too. I started to dream about being a family again (getting married and being together like we did before).
As he began to recover and go back out into the world, I began to feel abandoned. I was proud he got back to work and did ok. I was proud that he started tackling going to the shop. He also started going back out with his mates once or twice a week. That was great, in theory, but I would go back to my home and sit there and feel lonely and sad that we weren’t together. I know – I filled my time and didn’t fall down into depression or anger about it like before, but his planning of this was abrupt and left me no time to fill my own diary with plans/friends/activities. Also, most honestly, it just left me thinking “ok, when do ‘we’ become priority. He’s ok to now start going and tackling these issues, and spending time with friends (whom I don’t respect for the way that they pressure him and don’t actually really care that much). When does making us into a family unit so that we are stronger come onto the agenda?”
I began to express that it was very difficult to give to him and have my heart be so open, but feel like I wasn’t getting the same comittment. These discussions would start as calm, reasonable exchanges but would get heated and angry. I worked like a devil to enact all the principles i’ve learned. He is a verbal bully and lashes out very badly when angry. Even I can see how wildly mean he is and see through it. Some stray flack still gets through to my heart though. Also, I get pushed into a place where I find it hard to control myself. I grew up with physical intimidation and abuse. When he’s mad, he tends to get right in my face or my ear and be vile. Sometimes he’ll grab my arms too – but when I react (shouting, pushing him away), he says “It’s just to calm you down”. He’s gotten alot better with this as I enact Kim’s advice. But still, I can find myself in places that touch on my past and can only stay in that place so long before I start to lose my cool. What’s also adding to the stress, he’s my boss at work, so any decision we take about the relationship will impact on this and on my ability to earn a living for my children. This means my home is in danger etc. The economic environment is not great here and the ‘normal’ opportunities for mobility just do not exist.
He is now saying: “I want to you to live with me and see if we’re compatible. I want to take it one step at a time because I want to make sure it’s right. The thought of getting engaged right now makes me feel panic and sick and I can’t do it.”
This appeals to Kim & Steve’s advice around setting smaller challenges, around needing to break large tasks into smaller, achievable goals. But how can you break being together into small goals?
I say back to him: “I can’t just come and live with you. First, it puts me and the children in a difficult situation wherein we are forfeiting our security for a ‘trial’. We need to know we are going to go forward as a team, together, and approach our decisions and life design in that way. Second, it completely puts me into a financial position where I’m dependent as I’d have to rent out my home, etc Third, how can I possibly do all of that *knowing* that you’re not sure if I’m the person you want to be with forever.”
I am confident now that I can see much positive reaction to my changes of behaviour. We benefited enormously from Kim & Steve’s advice. I am now hitting a brick wall on this subject though. If he were just my husband, in the house, acting weird, I’d know how to handle it. This step though feels like I’m out in the wilds without a compass.
Any thoughts?
Tracy
Am I just making things too complex?
I am sure I’m missing something very simple. I want to move forward with him. I do not want to continue living between two homes, or ‘dating’ him. I feel that I have a right to feel safe and comfortable. I feel that I have a right to have my desires taken into account. I feel that marriage would symbolise BOTH of our commitments to working together on ourselves to make a brighter future.
Thanks for listening.
Hi Tracy,
I just happened to catch your posts – I am not often moderating posts here much these days!
I have just been so busy with the radio shows, new products and improvements to the sites.
You are doing great but I know that the position you are now in is tough.
One thing I would say is that maybe he needs a challenge that is close to his heart – something that is just for him and helps build trust. The other is that I think you might benefit from joining Christian Carter’s mailing list. His products are expensive but honestly you will get so much good advice from his newsletters you may not need to buy anything. His advice about dating and learning how to get commitment from a man is very good.
It is very common for narcissists to have nervous breakdowns as you describe when they are recovering and the really important thing is that they do not rebuild the false ego again for lack of knowing what else to do. Sometimes just small reminders can be very powerful, such as “I am not interested in how successful you are or what car you drive, what I really value in a man is that he can live easily with himself and how good a father and husband he is.”
I am sure there will be others here who can also help!
Good to hear from you!
Kim
PS. THe other thing is that when you want to talk about the future you don’t bring it up like it is a problem or a big issue to discuss. It is much better if you can build on the rapport you have found. So you say “I am really enjoying your company so much these days … (and wait to see his response is positive) I like it that you are ….. (again see that this gets a good response) and then you might suggest what you would be impressed or pleased to see happen next (the next challenge) and in this way you can lead him to a more positive place rather than letting your own frustration bring up resistance and bad feelings in him (-:
Thank-you for the response. I wish there were a few more guys in the forum as well. I fell abit of alone here wondering if I am “a just a coward and a wimp”. (I know it is not true but the feeling still exists). I cannot believe how much three weeks of learning about narissism has taught me.
After reading many posts, I find it a bit hard to relate in some areas. My wife in many ways displays charm and genuine caring towards the family, friends and me for that matter. I coming to the realization that the caring is all about her stroking her own ego.
I have been reading alot about NPD. Has anyone seen cases where one type of NPD changes into another type? I have read but “Parental Destructive Narissism” by Nina Brown. She talks about a “Parentified Child”. When I read about it , it fits my wife to a T. Ms. Brown talks about two responses to being parentified child, one is a compliant response, the other is seige response. My wife Cindy unfortunately was raised in a home with a father that was an extreme narissist. Three weeks ago I did not know what narissism was, I knew words like self-centred & conceded. Her father has it all 24/7. in regards to her mother I simpley judged her over the years as a very pathetic, shallow person that cannot carry a conversation beyond what she is cooking for dinner or the flowerbeds she escapes to. She cannot even keep relationships with her two sons and my wife. She does try, but just does not have the skills. My wifes family is totally disfunctional. Her sad pathetic mother after 30 some years living My wife father is a result of this actions. I never understood it…. Now I get it, I feel so sorry for her.
Back to my wife, I think she was a complaint narissist for many years, because I was a supportive and protective. “She openly admits I saved her from her disfunctional family when we met and married”. I suppose when I look at it, she was co-dependant on me. Looking back, It was okay with me. I was a strong person, although I felt sorry for her, thinking her self centred actions & consede was just a poor personality trait, it did not affect me and I learned to accept it. Besides she was a good mother in most ways, so it seemed. I accepted her narissism.
In the last year she has found as she calls it “her independence”, she was changed to a defient Narississt. Here is where the problem lyes for me… Every person is intitled to independence. But her actions are exactly what you would expect from a rebelous teenager….
So here is my struggle, I understand I need to work on myself and get me back to a better place.. But what do I do about her day to day actions that are destructive to our marriage kids and family? Her actions are not seen as abusive ( at least to others) , they are suttle and appear innocent, but behind closed doors of our house they very destructive to the family.
PS: Just wring this down, is a real help for me. THANK YOU!
Patrick
Hi Tracy, Thanks for paying attention to my post, It is comforting knowing someone is listening.
I am assuming you from Australia from your description of your husband’s “mates”. I am from Canada. I was fortunate to travel to Australia last year, beautiful Country. We both are blessed to live where we do ( if I am correct).
I am new to this post and feel I am not worthy enough or knowlegdeable to comment, but what struck me from your post was the comment your husband is your boss.
My biggest mistake was entering into a business with my narissitic wife. When each of us worked on our own individual issues within the business it worked okay, but when we crossed paths on issues, which was daily, it was hell. With any interaction we had, for my wife it was always competitive. We tried to identify boundarys for each other, I feel I respected them, but she could not. My success was a constant threat for her. As a result, I could not work at 100%,I was focused on avoiding confontation with my business partner and wife, instead of focusing on the work at hand. It was a very confusing time for me. Juggling keeping my family as number one, and trying to do my job to the best of my ability turned impossible. As result everything came crashing down. I know it was best the business failed, now I trying to move forward.
Have you thought about searching out a new carreer? For me, I truly beleive, if I find a new fresh enviroment I I can kick start my life again, I am still searching for what I want to, but know in my heart I need to find it for my own peace.
I know there are plenty of opportunity’s out there, even if it requires education. The web is becoming a great tool for part time education, via correspondence.
Patrick
Hi Patrick,
I hope you can take comfort in knowing that most of us (if not all of us) here in this blog have felt like “cowards or wimps” at times, however that feeling will subside, and may pass completely, as you learn and grow from Kim and Steve’s program.
You obviously have empathy towards others though (which is a virtue) because after just a few weeks of reading and learning about this program you now understand, for example, why your mother-in-law is so seemingly disconnected and shallow – and you feel for her.
Who knows what she is thinking and suffering inside as she escapes to her garden after having lived more than 30 years with a narcissistic husband. Maybe one day she might learn the truth (perhaps by your example) and awaken to the fact that there is hope – even if it is just for the personal recovery of the long-time and severely oppressed individuals who have lived in these types of destructive relationships.
All I know is that it is good fortune, and perhaps even a miracle, for each one of us here to have found Kim and Steve’s program. We have now found a way to slow down and perhaps halt the downward spiral of being codependent and living with a narcissist by learning all about co-dependency and narcissism. We now also have a chance to turn our relationships around, and to rebuild them into healthy attachments, in an upward spiral of truth, integrity, dignity, grace and trust.
Dr Maria Rodowski, a guest on Kim and Steve’s final Globaltalkradio show for 2009, had some excellent information for us about The Attachment Theory regarding human development, teenagers, secure attachments, insecure attachments and avoidant attachments. It is very worth it for all who write to this blog to listen to this show to see how we, our partner and children relate to each other.
Knowing how you fit in by your form of attachment to your partner or child could help you to “detach” from negativity as it happens hopefully in order to outgrow insecure attachments and avoidant attachments, and to develop trust and healthy secure attachments.
With respect to handling your day-to-day interactions with your wife and children – take an “easy does it” and “how important is it?” attitude. Be as warm and as welcoming you can by making sure you greet each member of your family as Kim tells us to – this must be done – it is not optional.
Avoid REACTING to blame, put-downs, criticism, insults etc, by using your “magic scissors” – perhaps initially on EVERY single negative comment you hear or action you see, and EVERY single negative thought you have in your mind. Easy to say – much harder to do – but worth the self-control to get a real handle on the situation.
If you use your “magic scissors” and detach from the button pushing – you can have an objective (unemotional) look at what is being said or done that is probably meant to offend you, or hurt you, or to keep you down.
Your wife may wonder what on earth is going on with you, and she may escalate her negativity because she may have grown up with a lot of drama in the family home and is only comfortable living with drama – this phenomenon has been called “excited misery” in the self growth program I was in many years ago.
When she is putting you down, being insulting or abusive towards you, listen to what she is saying but try to rise above it (detach) and look at the bigger picture that may exist. Ask yourself questions like:
• Does my wife have a legitimate concern or complaint right now, or is she creating a drama because she cannot relax and is so used to living with drama and anxiety that she doesn’t know how to live without it for very long if at all? Is she making a mountain out of a molehill?
• Is my wife pumping herself up right now or getting a narcissistic supply by doing/saying what she is doing/saying to me right now? Is this part of her narcissistic mask?
• Is my wife smoke-screening by blaming others so that she does not have to take or share any responsibility for this or some other matter?
Contemplate during your self-soothing times, questions like the following (for example – her apparent portrayal of superiority to you regarding the history of the travel business):
• Does my wife see her personal identity and success in life as what she does or achieves in her career?
• If my wife lost her job in the travel agency – would she still be so cocky and self-absorbed, and putting me down? Or would she fall in a heap of perceived lost personal identity, and behave perhaps like a child not knowing where to go or what to do next? Would she throw childish tantrums? Would she blame someone or something else for the loss of her job?
• If she lost her job – would she take it on the chin with emotional maturity, and move on to find another job straight away, with dignity and grace?
• Does my wife portray that she is more powerful, and/or that she is “better” than me, every time she puts me down (especially in regard to the history of the travel business) bearing in mind that her father may have been tyrannical towards her as she was growing up – and she has not only suffered from this, but learned the behaviour too?
The above are only suggestions or examples of questions for you to contemplate what is behind all the abuse and superficiality. Only you can know your true situation, the more you learn, grow, detach, self-soothe and contemplate the better chance you will have at finding solutions to your difficulties.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Tracy,
I think Patrick has a good point – are you able to find a career/business or job that is independent of your man?
Living and working together can pose strains on any relationship, and based on personal experience I would not recommend that anyone go into business with a romantic partner unless they both have a solid “secure-attachment” type relationship with each other.
From experience also, it is one thing to be tied to each other by marriage or living together in a committed relationship, but if you ever wanted to part ways in the future – not only do you lose your marriage/relationship, but you could lose your business (perhaps with associated career) and livelihood all in one hit.
Perhaps this is what you need to consider first before moving in together – what your back up plan would be if things didn’t work out the way you expected or hoped for? You have expressed some concerns already about losing your existing independence and security for a trial?
Good Luck and Stay in Touch.
CD, Australia.
Hi again Tracy,
Sorry Tracy, in my last post I meant “if you ever wanted to part ways in the future – not only do you lose your marriage/relationship, but you could also lose or need to change your job risking losing your livelihood all in one hit.”
Take care,
CD, Australia.
Hi,
I don’t know if my husband has any diseases or problems but for some reason I keep thinking this might be the one.
We just got done fighting again with me trying to tell him how he makes me feel when he leaves me responsible for everything. This would include making decisions, paying bills, the kids, you name it unless it’s a physical job, mowing lawn, housework, projects and his job, I am responsible and also to blame if it goes wrong. Today was I went to town to long and he had things to do so he just didn’t do anything because I took to long. I left home at 10:30 this morning and got home at 11:45 this morning. My fault he didn’t do what he wanted. Basically if he doesn’t want to do it or doesn’t think he will make the right decision I get to decide or do and get fully blamed if it goes wrong.
I am also responsible fully during the week because he works on the road which gives him excuses to not do anything even if he needs to make a phone call only he can make on his behalf.
My husband’s mother has schizo affective disorder and I see a lot of the lack of emotion or empathy in her that I see in him. There is a strange disconnect like they don’t understand what you are saying when trying to explain something or in my husbands case not be able to understand being in my shoes. The minute I say this is how I feel he says well this is what you do or how you make me feel. I am starting to feel crazy because no matter how I go about it he just doesn’t get it and it’s taking a major toll on me.
In the past he has been caught with porn and caught red handed and denied he did it and made it my fault for him doing it or laughed it off and made fun of me like it was a big joke to him. He did this when I was pregnant and he also blamed me for being pregnant.
It’s never ending. Tonight I just feel like walking away and never coming back it’s just so toxic for me and the kids because I can’t deal with living with someone that seems to only have me around to be used for things but not loved. He says he loves me but the actions never confirm the talk.
He refuses to take blame.
Right now our house is in foreclosure and I found out from him that he told his parents that he should have paid better attention to the finances to make sure this didn’t happen. He threw me under the bus. He didn’t tell the truth. I asked him countless times to help with the money and never got help. He has no clue what anything cost. I told him 3 years ago we couldn’t afford the house we are in and he just never listened. I wanted to move back home so I could have help with the kids from my parents when he was gone but he didn’t want to move because he didn’t want to. So since he has left me to take care of things and it’s all my fault. I only have so much money to go around. Just think If I had never paid anything and he would’ve had to, we would have been in big trouble a long time ago.
Manipulative, deceitful, blamer, unsympathetic, cruel and cold is how I would decribe him. Seems like he is incapable of loving me. Constantly criticizing what I don’t do and how he does it all.
I’m blamed for his loss of friendships or lack of, and blamed for his relationship with his parents and sister. I’m blamed for everything. I have been lied to by all of them especially concerning his mother’s health and our kids being around them when no one disclosed her condition until she flipped out. I don’t trust his parents or sister either.
I can’t get him to go to counseling. I think if I could it would show. He is pretty quiet and always has been but everyone calls it shy. He is passive aggressive. He might not say he is mad but he will come back in a way to make you pay for it later.
His mother’s side of the family, half of them which is about 5 siblings have some sort of mental illness including her mother. Anxiety to major depression, to her schizo affective. I’m pretty sure something is not right with him. I don’t want something to be wrong with him but I just don’t understand how a person can be so unthoughtful or mean and just not get how they are affecting someone else. It’s like he has no heart. I can’t stand feeling so unappreciated and used anymore. I have gained weight and am very depressed. We don’t have sex and when we do it’s all about him.
I hate this for my kids. I love him I just don’t know how I can live with someone that really doesn’t care about me. This sucks!
I have tried time and again to tell his parents and sister that this is what is causing problems between us and I end up being the bad person and crazy one that needs help. The funny thing is I am the only one that actually went and got help. His mother hasn’t even had any sort of counseling sessions since her meltdown last fall. Just a bunch of pills. But to understand her husband, my father-in-law brought her home after a month in the hospital and a suggestion from the doctor to put her in long term care and went back out hunting and left her home alone. So, I couldn’t stand feeling the way I did like I do now again and went to get help. I knew I was doing the best I could and the counselor helped me see that and that I wasn’t losing it.
Just at a lost. Not sure what to do anymore. I am overwhelmed with his behavior and my 5 and 3 year old and the fact that we will be out of a home in 3 months. We have a place to go, one of my parents homes, but he wants me to tell them that this is my fault we lost the house. Really? What is wrong with him?
I have tried to be independent by getting a job because he tells me to work and that he will help if something goes wrong with the kids and then he never ends up helping. We don’t live around family or friends and we have no friends so I have no one to help me. I have been fired for jobs only after a few months because the kids get ill and I have no time off and he wouldn’t help. It all seems so controlling as I read what I type, or is it just me?
Needed to vent and thanks for reading or listening.
Andrea
Hi Andrea,
I am new to all of this as well. I have been married to my husband for 21 years. So much of what you are saying is familiar to me. You are not crazy. But, I know what it is like to feel crazy. Living with a person with NPD is very confusing. I am looking to Kim and Steve’s work for ways I can take control of myself and become more aware and educated about my own emotional well being. I am in the middle of divorce proceedings and I have three beautiful children. I am hoping to have a positive relationship with my soon to be ex-husband through self improvement and self strengthening for my sake as well as my children’s. It is helpful to feel like there is a community of people out there who understand what we face and are working through the challenges of living with NPD as a part of their lives. It is not just you and here in this place you can find encouragement.
Dear Kim (& everyone!)
Thanks so much for your replies and I really want you to know how much I appreciate it. I meant to write earlier to say how useful Kim’s step-by-step advice was but didn’t have a chance because I was too busy enacting it!
” So you say “I am really enjoying your company so much these days … (and wait to see his response is positive) I like it that you are ….. (again see that this gets a good response) and then you might suggest what you would be impressed or pleased to see happen next (the next challenge) and in this way you can lead him to a more positive place rather than letting your own frustration bring up resistance and bad feelings in him (-:”
This was very sound advice, yet again, from the Coopers. Thanks.
When I did this he said:
“You know I am not going to ‘mess you over’ in the long run. What about me telling you ‘I love you’ more and stuff? If only we could talk about these things and then leave some time for thinking and then revisit them again rather than fight or say ‘it’s over’.”
And we’ve been doing just that.
I will keep you all posted! Wish me luck.
Thanks again from the bottom of my heart.
I simply wanted to say Thank you to Steve for his input and helpful insight from his perspective. It sure goes a lot away to help understand what could be going on in a NPD-person’s head.
I can’t really say my situation is getting any better at all, but at least I know I’ve done everything within my power to try to get things back on track. Sometimes people just get things stuck in their head that is just not accurate, and that’s more of what I’m dealing with than anything. No matter what I say or how calming or supportive I am, I’ve been made the calalist of everything that has gone wrong in his life. All can do is step away and when his life is still crap, he’ll have no one else to blame.
Hi all,
I haven’t posted for a bit, but things have been progressing here. I’m feeling cautiously optimistic, and I hope it remains. We seem to be entering a shift point for my husband, and our relationship. We had had a better stretch (briefly), and then I felt the tension rising again. I’ve been keeping pretty low key. As a background – I predicted that this 6-8 week stretch (mid Oct to early Dec) was going to be horrid, for a variety of reasons. I joked with friends that I was going to need to leave town during this time, so from that baseline expectation things are pretty good.
I have sat back, responded as calmly and minimally as I could, and have been able to bounce back pretty quickly when I have gotten off track. My husband has been pushing and provoking in a very rapid cycle. His emotions are clearly spinning out of control. When my responses have been pretty “good,” he has quickly escalated into nuttiness, but then returns to a calmer and more normal state by the next day.
A few weeks ago he escalated about something and said he was never going to do anything with me socially ever again – yes I was very hurt – but shortly after I got his family to agree to come along, and I proceeded almost as if nothing happened, and made firm arrangements for a previously discussed joint family trip and a conference for myself. It took me several days to figure out how to handle this and several more to actually book all the arrangements, but I did it. Short of really making a fool of himself, he will be coming. When he started ranting that I could not drive our children because I was not a safe enough driver (yes I have had too many minor accidents in the past few years because I was too distracted and internally distraught.) As best as I could, I just replied that he did not have the right to keep me from driving our children, but if he wanted to come along on our plans for that day he was welcome to drive. He came – he ended up shifting our plans a bit, but he came.
One night he had a scare over something, and apologized to me for saying a lot of very hurtful things. It was the first apology in years, and while it had passed by the next morning I still valued it. It reminded me of how frightened he is. However I need to see some clear changes going forward. I have drafted a letter to give him just before or just after the end of his acute stressors. It will acknowledge once again some of how I should have manged some things in our life differently, but also assert that I deserve to be treated with more respect than I have been, and that we both need to see a clear improvement in this regard.
My biggest concern is the incessant “put downs,” and critical or inappropriate negative comments about me expressed in front of our boys. I have discussed this with the school team of our eldest in the context of my being concerned about my husband’s high and inconsistent expectations causing him some mild anxiety symptoms. They also see the tension, asked me many questions, provided me with some additional information from their observations, and strategized about how to bring it up in a very gentle fashion at our parent teacher conference next month. I’m wary of getting blamed for talking to others and distorting their views of my husband (even as I am planning to just take a totally passive role and pretend that I had no role,) but I also hope our pre-planning brings some leverage and insight to him in a gentle enough way that he can hear it.
Others have posted in the past asking if anyone beyond Kim and Steve have seen significant change. I think there are others who also have, and I am seeing some positive changes at a time I expected to be very rough. I feel we are approaching an inflection point, and if I keep with my plan, I will also express my need for further behavioral changes (I’m still considering if this includes some recognition of how I have been held overly culpable) I’ll let you know how it continues.
Thanks everyone,
MR
Wow, MR, That’s so great to hear! It is refreshing to reflect on the positive while remembering that it doesn’t really ever make it easy – just manageable. I mean it won’t be easy, right? It can be acceptable and tolerable if the behavior is kept in check, and addressed in a non confrontational way. It’s great to see your growth. Good for you for sticking with it and staying on track. I remember that post you were referring to about how crazy a time this was going to be because of his “hard time” over these months… It reminds me of how fast time goes. Everything is truly a moment in time and if we don’t find a way to embrace all those moments (even the awful ones) one day turns into the next and we are no further along on our journey because we get stuck in a moment that turns into months and even years!
I’m proud of you and your perseverence! Keep it up
Hi MR,
It is so good to see how much you have grown! Please take this as a compliment of the highest order, that it gives me (and probably others too) comfort knowing that even as a psychiatrist and physician you have struggled living with narcissism too just the same as everyone who posts here – and this illustrates and reminds us that it is an extremely difficult disorder to deal with for those emotionally affected – no matter what level of understanding or factors are involved.
It is no wonder then there is a lot of advice out there to just “cut and run”. But what sort of society would we build, or what example to our children would we make by running away instead of dealing positively with narcissistic behaviour and allowing the narcissist to get away with their junk giving them a false sense of security?
Security for us, and for our loved one who is also suffering from narcissism, is setting healthy boundaries and maintaining them in a positive and assertive way. Security is setting and achieving our personal goals on a daily basis, regardless of any sabotage or distractions. From your post I can see that you have now drawn a line in the sand, and that you are consciously choosing not to believe or validate his put downs or criticisms by focussing on and achieving your own goals & plans instead – and in doing so you are “commanding respect”. Your husband is starting to listen to your actions and to follow your footsteps of courage and inner strength (albeit with some resistance which translated is really fear of change and fear of trusting a loved one).
You have definitely shifted the power imbalance, and I have a feeling that you may not even need to give him the letter that you have drafted because you are now sending him clear and strong signals by your actions – and you are definitely getting his interest and attention. He will continue with the criticisms and put down “games” because that is his “armour”, and as time goes by you will get stronger and stronger to be able to resist this negative behaviour with emotional intelligence and maturity.
You have definitely put a “chink” in his armour – so keep chinking away – and you will continue building a healthier relationship with the trust and attachment that you hope for. Have you been able to rise above the past and current hurts to be able to greet your husband warmly yet? I found this one extremely difficult in the face of bitterness and hurt, but worth its weight in gold when I actively did this – not just for my husband’s benefit , but also for my own.
Try to ignore the negative stuff he says about your driving also – this erosion to your driving confidence is dangerous – my husband did it to me (and still does sometimes) and it is not acceptable. If you have any doubts about your driving competence go see a driving instructor to reinforce good driving skills. It is difficult to concentrate when driving if you are emotionally & mentally distracted. Play your favourite talk back radio station to get your mind thinking about other things happening in the world besides a current personal crisis that you may be faced with – I find that if my husband is in the car he concentrates on that radio show instead of my driving which is a great decoy tool. Touchwood (knock on wood) I have not had any accidents in my nearly 40 years of driving except for one little one when I was 18 and relatively inexperienced. Nevertheless, my husband has generally tried to erode my confidence over the years about everything I do or say (which is a form of abuse) and I had to make a conscious decision to discredit him and the abuse, and to believe in and validate myself. He doesn’t do this very much anymore because he knows it doesn’t work on me.
Well done, and keep up the good work – you are an inspiration to all of us!
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hello all,
I am in the middle of a battle with my N partner and I’ve just undone all the months (nearly a year now) of hard work I’ve been trying to achieve with him. We are battling over where our lives are going (living together vs getting married). The things he has said in our arguments make it impossible to even consider his point of view (paraphrasing “I’m only with you because you had no job, no car and now you work for me. I can’t just leave you all [my little family and I] out in the cold.” “I’m not happy in the relationship” etc etc. ) He pulls out these arguments when he’s in a corner. One moment it’s “I love you and I’m trying, I want it to work, it’s all going to be fine”, the next, he’s bullying me by refusing to discuss the matter, telling me to ‘f off’ etc.
I’ve had nearly 7 days of it now and given that my income is solely dependent on him [which is out of my control in the short term] I have nowhere to negotiate. He knows that what he wants/says goes. This is after a few months of me nursing him through the worst time of his life, a complete breakdown.
I’ve lost it. I’ve lost the ability to self-soothe, it seems burned away by my immense anger that he woudl treat me this way. I am in danger of doing something awful because when he shows me callous, cold disregard, I am overwhelmed by rage.
If anyone’s around, it’d be much appreciated to have some support. I am facing a weekend where my children are at their fathers. Traditionally, they’ve acted as my anchor and stopped me just short of tipping over into rage.
I am so disappointed in myself. But I can’t seem to exercise the discipline I need! I’m so ill with the flu and have been for over a month and I am so worn down. I can’t seem to stop myself from phoning, arguing, threatening, raging. All because we are at an impasse in our lives and I can’t cope. His statements around us, around my family and I, when he is angry are impossible to ignore and make it impossible to move forward with him in any fashion without a significant gesture of humility on his part. I can’t cope with the stress anymore and am finding myself either so angry I want to commit criminal damage or so low I’m contemplating ending it all.
I’m off work one more day (doctors note) and then I have to see him or quit or something. I’m embarrassed even typing this, because I can see my ‘victim’ whining and also how futile my rage is.
But I think it’s important to share the truth.
He’s become sophisticated with his torture lately, knowing that if he grabs me, intimidates me, etc I will phone the police. So sophisticated, that he laughs because he knows he has me cornered with the work thing. He can’t even leave the house at the moment because of his own anxiety disorder coupled with N, which he completely and utterly blames me for. Apparently, he despises me and I’ve ruined his life, one moment and the next, he loves me and is just ‘scared’ to move forward. How can i ever know what to believe? I’m STILL clinging to the idea that he’s just going to *poof* change and make things better. But when I map that out in my mind, I know it isn’t the answer and I know he’s incapable of it. Why am I torturing him adn myself then? Knowing that I know everything Kim and Steve have taught me, knowing how much I respect and admire the lessons I’ve learned, WHY AM I STILL DOING THIS? I can’t understand it, yet I’m having these out of body experiences where I see myself doing these things and no matter how loud the voice in my head shouts, I just think “he deserves to hurt like I hurt”.
Please, if anyone is available to chat with me, I’d really appreciate it. I need some moment by moment steps to get through this.
Sorry guys to be so negative. I really am. I’m just hoping to document my own struggles. I’m full of hope for long periods of time, then I just ‘lose it’. I have some serious growing up to do. I am just lost as to where to start in the situation. It seems so immediate.
Hi Tracy,
Hey luck MUST be with you girl because you caught me approving posts!!! Now take a deep breath
and hang in there because believe me I have been through where you are right now and made so many
mistakes and it is not like the work you have done in the past is undone it just seems that way now.
First things first I want you to stop arguing with him. Start agreeing with everything he says like this …
“I am sorry that you are so unhappy being part of this family and you are probably right that we are not meant for
each other. I want you to be happy and that is important to me but right now we are both sick so lets not
plan what comes next until we are better OK?”
I also want you to think about it like this … There is only one thing that is certain about emotions and that is
that they are going to change. Remember the patronis charm in Harry Potter? The kids had to practice it over and
over because it is not easy to bring to life a happy memory when we are hurting or afraid. You don’t need to be
perfect but now is the time to practice!!! What is your favorite comedian? Go watch them now. It doesn’t matter
that you don’t feel like it – do it anyway!!! Go and get that list that you were meant to write when you were happy
and look at all the things you wrote on that.
Next is bio chemical. You need to alkalise right away. The fastest way to do that is drink a glass of clean water with
a couple of teaspoons of bi carb of soda in it. Go do that now. I then want you to get some lemons and start drinking the juice.
Lemon juice is acid but turns alkaline in your system. Also try and get some fresh squeezed vegetable juice and cut out meat and bread
while you are sick.
OK so I am thinking of you Tracy as are all of us here. Feel the love we are all sending you and you see this as
an opportunity!!! I know that sounds crazy but it is. You cannot get stronger by practicing self soothing when you are happy!
You get stronger practicing it when you are mad!!! I know you want to hurt him, that is OK and understandable but acting on
that emotion just plays into his bad sides hand and you are not going to let that @#$%%^ win are you? Acknowledge your
anger and then send it away and call on your happy mind to come back and help you. You can’t force him to do anything.
Show him you can get in touch with your calm and strength with or without him and all this will pass.
Hang in there mate …
Kim
PS. Also go and watch the movie link on this page here
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/narcissism_Support/Kims_Blog/Entries/2007/10/7_A_Free_Movie_Link_for_You.html
Even if you have seen it before it doesn’t matter watch it again!!!!
God, thank you so much for that. I am drinking the bicarb soda water right now. I’ve just read the transcript for Emotional stupidity too. I think I missed that show. But it was spot on and exactly what I needed. I am very challenged myself with some emotional issues and I’ve NOT done all the work. (dang it, I also noted you both discuss that show the fact that those who just read the material and do it, no excuses, get on with it, do better and have more of a chance – so I may be silent for a while
& please ignore me. 
I am going to buy your new book tomorrow and make that my focus. I did come down from a terrible state the other day by doing the ‘focus on 5 things around you’ exercise you advised of, the one you practised at the bus stop.
I think there’s a few places I’ve fallen down:
I haven’t been looking after myself properly and it leads to low self-esteem, needines, exhaustion and feeling like I ‘need’ him to make it better.
I haven’t just stopped the madness and conversations and gotten on with life. What the hell am I hoping to achieve? He’s not even able to think straight with my own brand of torture, much less make considerate actions towards me.
I haven’t worked on building a support network for him. Well, I’ve done a little of that, but haven’t been successful hooking him up with these people yet and it’s a very lonely time for him right now.
I am totally obsessed by ‘time ticking by’ because I want to have more children and I’m embarrassed that we’ve been together so long and everyone looks at us and thinks ‘hmmm, he’s just stringing her along and she’s desperate enough – single mum, etc – to take it’ so the whole idea of him making it right feels like the perfect answer. So, when we get close, I want to shift up a few gears and get it in motion. When he doesn’t jump on the bandwagon with delight, I focus in, in, in until I’ve pinned him down like a butterfly in a case and he has nowhere to go. It’s ‘my way or the highway’lately, if I’m honest, because I think I’ve felt more power, and I’ve once again begun to leverage my presence as a way to gain control ‘ it’s over’ etc. That’s not nice. I’m really intruiged by this particular part of my problem because it’s here that I keep getting stuck. I don’t know how to achieve my relationship goals in a way that works for us both, in this situation or any others. My exhusband and I had an argument today where he pretty much told me that when I didn’t get what I wanted, even if it was something that I was right in wanting, I go into meltdown mode and got, I quote, ‘psychotic’. I know this comes from my past, from the abandonment and rejection I experienced with my parents. I got an emancipation, or divorce from them, when I moved out at 14 years old and been supporting myself since (with the help of my exhusband). It is like I am looking to have my partner fill those gaps for me. Now, I know that it’s unrealistic, but surely a healthy good relationship can go some ways to helping these things? Just like I am hoping to offer. Thing is, can two totally messed up people actually help one another? Who else is going to do it? I just need to figure out how to get out of my own ruts. I’ve had counselling, read a million self help books, reiki, you name it, but the pain is pretty deep and when challenged, I turn about 4 again and it’s not pretty. I have been proud a bit more lately, the latter half of this year, because your books and you and Steve’s advice were like a big old slap in the face and got me, for the first time, thinking about MY PART IN IT. But I still have a LONG way to go.
How long did it take you to properly ‘grow up’ – this question is for anyone out there reading. CD sounds like she’s well down this path, as do a few others.
I HAVE focused on my goals and my girls, but I’ve just had a serious, hard core relapse and I’m in shock.
Anyway, thanks all for being here. If anyone wants to chat over the weekend, let me know. Sometimes it helps to talk through these steps.
I just woke up from going to sleep because I wanted to once again thank you from the bottom of my heart. The example you’ve shown us all deserves to be shouted from the rooftops. I hope that one day, you and Steve get to spread your message far and wide across the world – it’s the most spiritual, grounded, realistic and loving advice I’ve ever read and has really made a huge impact on my life.
May you be blessed this Christmas and into the New Year with the love of your family, and an expanding presence in this world, and comfort and wealth. You both deserve it for the time, attention and dedication you’ve shown to something you obviously believe in so sincerely.
If anyone is new to this thread or existing members, please please please – never give up. Read these resources again and again. The answers are all there. They really are!
Hi Tracy,
Good question Tracy and you know it took years!!!
At first and as I had very little guidance my new emotional strength would go up and down and then finally about 6mths of solid improvement with me “getting it” and starting to see I HAD to be the strong one or we would just sink, this was after I had found another girls phone number in Steve’s wallet (only because he was making a big show of hiding it) and discovered I could be happy anyway and that this didn’t make me weaker it made me STRONGER. Then a setback which was caused by a trainer Steve was working with pumping up his ego and telling him he really didn’t need to do all the work (he had her doing his homework!!!) and at this stage he also starting talking about plans for my business as if it was his. I put a stop to all that fast. I went and saw this woman’s supervisor and said he either has to do the course properly or this has got to stop as it is effecting us at home. I said I understood the trainer was just trying to help his self esteem but that was NOT going to help in Steve’s case as it would just go to his head and his bad behaviour at home had started again after him being good for so long. One mention of a DV history and she got it and the woman in question was pulled from training him. The funny thing was that Steve was relieved. He came back down to earth. Then after another good 6 months we had the final set back with his social worker which I have talked about a lot. I talked about the solution however but not about the part where I flipped out and did all the wrong stuff (ha ha ha). You don’t have to be perfect and who better to learn all this stuff with than someone like your guy who has lots to learn too. see: http://www.thelovesafetynet.com/Love_Part_2.html
The important thing Tracy is that you are seeing your mistakes and are ready to face them. You will love emotional stupidity. It talks all about why we get sucked into thinking we can force people to do what we want. I was like that too and once Steve would scare me and would succeed in provoking me he could turn me into a psycho too!!!
So you are back on track now I think! When he starts with the “I’m leaving you” stuff just think to yourself “yeah yeah yeah we will see – but honey how about we first watch some funny movies and get some sleep” (-: I know it isn’t easy but in the end you are going to be SO solid girl. I am facing it all in business now instead of my home life! Believe me in business there are just as many tantrum throwing babies that want all your attention while calling themselves business people and you know the same stuff I teach with Steve still applies. It’s tough but then I look at all of the successful people out there, do they go to pieces and forget their own goals just because someone is unhappy with them? No they say I am busy and I will talk to you once my lawyer has this sorted out with you and they hang up!
You get that gap finder going Tracy and give yourself plenty of time and love to fill in those gaps!!!
Kim
Ahh Gee thanks Tracy – I have goose bumps now!!! If you get bored over the weekend check out my YouTube Channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/kimandSteveCooper
I just last night favorited some great stuff.
Tracy,
Feel free to use this space to just get the frustration off of your chest. We all have, and we all have had moments of feeling like we were loosing our mind, like we just can not keep living like this and yes even considering what are the other available “ways out.”
I am very glad for you that Kim happened to be on-line and could respond so promptly and give you some concrete suggestions. For me, the intensity of the frustration that sometimes pulls me back into responding with old patterns has not really lessened, but the frequency of my reacting to the set-up has lessened, and I am “bouncing back” to a better place more quickly – even if when I was feeling very hurt I felt as if all of my progress had been lost (as you described.)
I have also found it useful to write e-mail letters to supportive friends about what is going on – except I e-mail them only to myself so others do not get the burden of the whining and complaining. By the end of writing it and editing what and how I want to say, the intensity has usually lessened.
MR
PS – Kim, This response is great. I think I am going to file a variant of this suggestion in the back of my mind. I needed to have used it earlier today.
“First things first I want you to stop arguing with him. Start agreeing with everything he says like this …
“I am sorry that you are so unhappy being part of this family and you are probably right that we are not meant for each other. I want you to be happy and that is important to me but right now we are both sick so lets not plan what comes next until we are better OK?”
Hi MR,
I am glad you liked that!!! I will write a bit more to you tonight but everyone is waiting for me to have dinner right now (-:
Kim
OK I am back now, I just showed my family one of the new YouTube movies I was mentioning before that I subscribed to
recently. Please search for it on YouTube or find it on our channel (narcissism self help). It is called ‘validation’ and I was put on to
it from a subscriber here! It is a great one to show your family too!
I am glad to hear that you are getting stronger MR and it is very wise that you view your progress over time. I really want to
say to everyone who is still struggling with their partner that they will really benefit from the 4 legged stool exercise in The Love Safety Net
Workbook and I think that you may find the areas that come less naturally finally come to light if you start tracking
your progress there. When you find that last leg it can be really elating to discover that all the other legs you have built are actually
much studier and stronger than you thought!!!
I so want to thank you MR and the other beautiful women here for all of your generosity and wisdom and I really hope that the love
starts flowing a bit stronger for you from your man soon – because you deserve to be loved and you deserve to feel proud of how far
you have come!!!
Hang in there!
Kim
PS. I am working on articles for a new blog I will be more active on which will be launched in the next week or two so I will keep
you posted (-:
for TRACY:
It took me till I was in my mid to late 30′s to finally mature into adulthood. I always associated “growing up” with “being boring, responsible, stagnant.” I just didn’t see myself as wanting to be “like them…the adults.” Peter Pan Syndrome, perhaps.
After I was abused by a minister’s daughter, a narcissist/borderline/poss mpd person, I WOKE UP! I went and got on medicine in order to straighten out my own brain cells…went back to college, took Psych classes, Sociology classes…even faced a fear and SWAM again in Swimming Class! I took care of ME. My N husband hated it, because, the things that were ok with me for years, suddenly became intolerable.
For me, it was no longer ok to expect everyone to take care of my children and me. It was frustrating depending on my husband to pay bills on time, knowing our utilities would keep getting shut off…so, I began seeing him as the “child” he was, and I became the “re-parenter” of not only myself, but him! He didn’t know how to take it and he got very angry and still does at times, saying “the worst thing you ever did was GO BACK TO SCHOOL!” No, it was the BEST thing I did…I found ME again and I began BEING me, instead of fitting into his nasty fantasies.
My advice to you, Tracy, is keep taking care of you, read The Language of Letting Go, The Bible, books that help you find YOU! Deal with any types of other issues that cause you to have distorted perception about things…Stop Walking on Eggshells, THe Borderline Mother…of course, Steve and Kim’s books…all those things will help you really SEE yourself and begin making the changes to feel good about who you are.
As far as wanting children, my advice to anyone about that is, get well first yourself. Children are so innocent and it’s just not fair to give them parents who are still stuck in “child” mode themselves. I have a cousin who did that, a daughter who did that…it’s so painful to watch a baby or child try to get the attention of a mother who is a child herself and just can’t give the baby/child what it truly needs…stability. Think twice, work on YOU…that’s my advice.
So it’s the process that continues to trip me up. My therapist and I came up with the notion that I want to handle my relationship with my husband like a math problem. If I do “x” then the outcme will be “y”… The problem is that life is NOT a math problem. There are so many unknown variables that you just can’t solve life’s problems by using a simple formula. I simply can’t seem to get it into my head though. I feel like I know too much. I feel like separating my partener from his N supply is trylu not possible, since it is his career and life’s dream. His mission in life (building his empire) is his biggest Narrcissistic supplier and I have NO opportunity to rid our lives of it. The best I can do is take care of myself and my children. But I do get extremely negative and down when faced with an issue because aside from self sooth and magic scissors & moving on there is no way to stop the behavior since the circle has no end. He will never stop seeking out the recognition and the fame of his endeavors, that is what he lives for. The bad behavior that follows the blown up ego (that he gets when he works on a project, does networking, joins a new professional group…) will never end – because the precursors to the bad behavior are going to be a constant in his life. What do I do with that??? I guess I’ve been trying to solve the problem rationally. A problem that seems not to have a solution. I’m getting tired of the cycle. And like I said I get very down when it seems like there is no end to the cycle. I don’t know what to do. I got some good advise from my therapist about being in the moment. I try to move ahead to what I want my life to be, ignoring what it really is. That makes it worse for me because I’m always comparing what I want my relationship to be with what my relationship is. This makes the relationship seem hopeless and horrible, because I’ll never have that fairy tale relationship, it simple isn’t real. But longing for it makes me even unhappier rather than working on accepting what is there and working on that. I’m working on creating something that isn’t real, no wonder I keep failing!!!!
The problem is I don’t know how to get the fantasy out of my head. I don’t know how to accept that I married a narcissist and that is my life. He will be selfish and that is my life. He puts himself above our marriage and our children and that is my life. When I admit those things to myself I feel terrible about myself for staying. I feel stupid for putting up with it. I feel like a bad mom for not sweeping my girls away and protecting them. And at the same time what I do is LONG for a different life…one without narcissism, a partnership that I desperately want. And then I deny the truth of my relationship and perpetuate the fantasy I want to live. Because I must be a loser to accept him, right? And I CAN’T possible stay if he won’t change, right? This is what trips me up every time… the battle I have with myself over “right and wrong”. The battle of accepting him for who he is, and a life of managing his narcissism, over my fantasy life that I can’t seem to let go of.
Any suggestions besides time and practice? Now I know the answer to that but I’m trying to solve it like a math problem again!!! See… ARGH!!!!!! I want it to be easy, but it isn’t, that’s all there is to it.
Thanks for letting me vent
Allison,
First of all I want to tell you that I can really relate to all of your feelings, because I tend to want to solve problems logically too.
Narcissists don’t act according to “typical” anything, other than their own behavioral patterns that are listed all over the internet…problem with delayed gratification, grandiosity, lack of empathy, false-self centeredness.
Secondly, I can’t stress this enough, but especially people married to narcissists, need to take care of themselves…self-care. What IF the man/woman does NOT change…chances are, he might not! Are you going to sit there having regrets, pining away the rest of your life, while your children grow older and long for a mom who was so caught up in the drama of the N, that she couldn’t be there fully for them? ( not saying you are doing this, but I know how it can go that way if we don’t practice self-care )…don’t do it. Join a club, a church, go out with friends, go back to school, establish little celebrations for your children and you to have, just because…study other cultures and have a pinata or tie strings to your big toes and you tug on em on C’mas morning to let the kids know Santa came (Switzerland custom I think)…point is, you do not have to let this guy or any gal either, DEFINE your entire existence.
I didn’t. You don’t have to. You may never have the man you thought you had married…I know mine doesn’t even come close…but I love ME and ME and YOU is all we really have in the end of things anyway. Take care of yourself, have fun with your life, with your children…if this isn’t possible, then yeah, time to separate.
Hi Tracy,
The strength of the human spirit never ceases to amaze me! What a tough life you must have had from time to time, especially as a 14 year old child having to divorce your parents, and to support yourself from such a tender age out of necessity. It is no wonder you have (by your own self analysis) got the trait of wanting what you want when you want it – otherwise you go into a complete meltdown. You are a survivor of child abuse and as a child you have had to survive with the emotional maturity of a child, a child that unfortunately did not have the support of emotionally mature parents during your developing years.
Nevertheless, now as an adult, you obviously have done a lot of personal growth work and developed a very good amount of emotional maturity by being able to calm yourself down or self-soothe when hurt or angered (showing maturity also by asking for help and support when you need it), and you also have a talent to look within yourself for the “seed” of your difficulties.
This is not saying that your man has not hurt you, nor that you are the cause of the discord between you both, but rather that you have the ability to look within yourself to see what makes you “tick”, what makes you react defensively or aggressively when you are hurt or angry, etc . . . . or what makes you respond assertively.
When you have a meltdown, is it the child within you that is hurting and just wants to be loved and to feel secure, and when that hurt child perceives a threat of abandonment or rejection does it go into survival mode by losing control and lashing out? If this is true, then don’t beat up on yourself so much – you have done it tough, and you have always given your best until you knew better – and you are striving to be the very best you can be with an ever raising bar of personal growth and enlightenment. You are to be praised wholeheartedly for this.
Cut yourself some slack for the moment though, give yourself as much time as you need to heal and completely love the child within you FIRST. Allow your man time to do the same. Don’t be pressured by your biological clock or the need for a marriage certificate for now – maybe the BOTH of you are too fearful of commitment at this stage hence the anxiety and arguments. Men panic when their lady applies pressure about such things – among other concerns they wonder “Does she really want me or does she just want a wedding ring and babies?” True relationship stability comes at the level of trust and secure attachment.
Maria Rodowski spoke of “secure attachment”, “insecure attachment” and “avoidant attachment” in relationships in the last radio show of Kim and Steve’s “The Roots of the Dance”. It is worth listening to this show – the information is valuable for assessing where you and your relationship are at, and if you are really ready for full commitment yet, or what areas you (and your man) still need to work on.
I know I have already said this, but think very carefully about being totally dependent on your man – living with or marrying him and working for him, etc. It might be healthier for you to have a job independent of his business before you totally commit to each other? To be able to financially stand on your own two feet at any time, not only for your own financial security but for your children as well? I am speaking from experience – my husband and I are so tied up in business it would take years to sort ourselves out legally if we ever wanted to part ways – which has been seriously contemplated by us several times this year, and it is happening right now. The problem for us both is that we would not only lose our marriage, but our business, livelihood and careers as well – and that is not good for the emotional and financial security of either of us.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD
Hi Everyone,
Does anyone out there know what this is? My husband displays all the traits of narcissism – but he also has the following behaviour. One night we went to a Johnny Farnham concert with friends, everyone in the audience thoroughly enjoyed the concert – they showed their appreciation by clapping madly, cheering, whistling, and standing ovations, etc – all except for one person – my husband. He sat unemotionally in his chair all night sometimes with his arms folded not showing any outward sign that he was enjoying the concert – and I thought that he wasn’t because of this. I think Johnny Farnham could see this one person in the audience of 1000’s as we weren’t too far from the stage. Johnny shielded his eyes against the lights and looked steadily towards my husband for a brief moment – and if I am right – that he was looking at my husband, he must have wondered whether that one guy in the audience wasn’t enjoying his show.
It looked so strange that my husband was so unemotional – he wanted to go to the concert but he did not even clap his hands or display any form of enjoyment or appreciation – not even a face muscle twitch! As you can imagine I was blown away when we got out of the venue and he was the first to say “Well I really enjoyed that!” and he went on enthusiastically to say what he enjoyed about it. How can someone enjoy something so much but outwardly show no enjoyment?
He wasn’t depressed at the time (that I know of) and I don’t think my husband is claustrophobic, or agoraphobic or enochlophobic (fear of large crowds) – although I am wondering about the latter because he resists going to concerts, but he does enjoy them when he goes and he doesn’t stop raving about them for a long time later. He still raves about a concert we went to 35 years ago!
My husband shows little emotion except for football and the news or current affairs, etc where he becomes very vocal, and mostly negative. He does not laugh at any comedies, even if everyone else in the room is “in stitches” of laughter – but he has been known to crack a smile on very rare occasion when he does find something funny – but that quickly passes.
When he socializes – and I know him very well – he appears to be really enjoying himself with lots of laughter, but that laughter is so fake, his stories are mostly fake, and there is the gingival smile and the mask of him behaving like he is someone so much bigger and better than his true self.
In more recent times he does not do that anymore – he has been suffering insomnia and deep depression – but he will not take the help offered to him by the family doctor, and he does not want counselling any more – he only did that under sufferance apparently – and he is so anti prescription pills and refuses to take any pills – saying he will work through his depression himself, but he says he does not know if he will ever overcome it this time. He did take antidepressants some 14 years ago, but they made him go “psycho” – my son said it was like he was on illicit drugs – although we know he wasn’t because he is so anti illicit drugs as well.
After years of living with this most recent bout of depression and insomnia, and supporting him emotionally as much as I could, it has taken its toll on me – we are at the point of either he gets help or we part ways, I have to save myself from ending up in the same place.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Coz
My narcissist boyfriened is a rich and very tight man. He’s a genious and engineer. He’d the first on the playground and hikes and camps and has no fear of anything. It’s like I’m an object not a person that he loves and says he will love me for the next 40 yrs. I’m perfect for him. He judges and gets on soap boxes that annoy me but I just be quiet. He loves breasts, and says he wants some milk and wants to buy me a nusrsing bra. ewww. but never buys the bra but he always acts like he’s nursing. Loves to make love to me. He says he’s learning to trust. Boy does he push my buttons, usually about women. sheesh.
OK, just found your website and have lots of questions.
Five years ago, my husband Tom told me, after an unexpected phone call that he received on Christmas Eve after I had already gone to bed, that he was going to the airport to pick up a (male) friend of his that he hadn’t seen or heard from in ~two years. His friend Paul was returning home for the holidays from out of the country, and couldn’t reach his family to come pick him up at the airport.
My husband brought Paul home, and since his family still hadn’t been contacted, Paul spent Christmas Eve night on our couch in the living room – it was the least we could do for someone in such unfortunate circumstances.
Well apparently, Paul’s wife (turns out that she was an ex-wife since 1999) wasn’t enamored with the idea that he was home for the holidays after being out of the country for six months. So Paul spent the holidays with us. I felt so sorry for him.
He began trying to get back with his ex-wife, visited her frequently, yet she seemed to have a pretty cold relationship with him, although Paul’s two adult daughters treated him cordially.
Time passed, the ex-wife moved cross-country to live with another man, and I fell in love with Paul.
After the first year, he made sexual advances to me, and things got out of control. I was enamored with his charm, his wit, his high intelligence, his interesting background, and his athleticism.
I ignored his argumentative behavior, his explosive temper, his controlling/manipulative personality, his impatience, his lack of humor, his lack of empathy, his lack of being able to hold down a job in the past and current unemployment status, his large mood swings, his obsession with privacy, and his stinginess/selfishness.
I was willing to overlook his unwillingness to pay us room and board, even if it was a small amount. He began doing odd jobs around the house, and his talent at doing repair/maintenance jobs was outstanding, so I was willing to overlook the lack of him paying any rent money. He did things willingly, without me asking, and I was pitifully grateful.
I learned that he had been “a womanizer” when his now-adult daughters were young, before he became very religious(fundamentalist).
Fast forward to 2009.
I had been trying to break off our little “affair” but just didn’t have the emotional strength – my conscience was tearing me apart and I knew it was wrong. Paul apparently had no qualms whatsoever about it. My husband had no clue.
Then Paul fell in love with the widow next door, and he has become obsessed with her.
I was dropped like a hot potato, with no explanation. No more repair jobs are done around the house, and of course, we’ve never received any rent money. She gets 120% of his attention now.
Am I jealous? You bet. Turns out, both she and I are co-dependents.
Paul had to make a trip out of the country to take care of some loose ends business-wise, and while he was gone, my neighbor and I had long heart-to-heart converstaions. I told her of our affair, and that “he didn’t even say good-bye”. Was that a wrong thing to do? Perhaps it was the jealousy thing kicking in, or perhaps it was my inept way of trying to warn her that she was the “new flavor of the month” – I honestly don’t know.
She told me that she had been in two controlling/abusive marriages and there was no way that she was ever going to get into another one. He had already proposed to her in marriage but she refused – she told me that she barely even knew the man, and “there was a check in her heart”. (instinct that something just wasn’t right) I couldn’t believe that he had proposed to her after knowing her only two months.
She wound up telling Paul everything that I had told her in confidence, (of course – I should have known that would happen, but I honestly didn’t think that she would do that at the time). She told me that he had badgered her into admitting to him what we had done while he was gone.
Needless to say, Paul was furious with me when he found out about our converstations. He no longer speaks to me, and he barely speaks to my husband. My husband just thinks that Paul is moody and blows it off as just an idiosyncrocy.
When I recently discovered that Paul has narcissist characteristics, I was so shocked to find out that I wasn’t going crazy, I sat down and cried with relief – I wasn’t going crazy after all.
I wish Paul and his new found love the best, in spite of my hurt and jealousy. None of this is her fault.
I strongly suspect that he is hoping that she can support him and he would like to move in with her; however her three adult children will not allow it. So at this time she is keeping Paul as her “secret boyfriend”, and two of her children have no clue what’s going on, nor do two of her closest female friends. Only one daughter (my hairdresser) strongly suspects that Paul is targeting her mother, and she has strongly criticized her mother to stay away from Paul.
My stress level is high – I can hear the laughter and the charm and the entertainment going on in my neighbor’s back yard, and I see the projects that he’s doing at her house, and the little “labors of love”. It’s total silence over here – he doesn’t speak at all…and his hostility is something to behold. (I’ve “betrayed” him, if you will)
If you ask Paul a question, he will only reply with a curt “yes” or “no”.
I still love him in spite of his abusive behavior, which I have brought on my my mis-handling of his new love affair. I should have kept my nose out of their business, but my hurt was too much and I had to confide in someone who was already familiar with Paul’s charm.
I know that we are being used – I accused Paul of this in one of our many loud screaming matches. I resent that now. I can accept his new love affair but I am having a hard time dealing with feeling like a “used piece of toilet paper”.
BTW, Paul has threatened to me, in one of his explosive verbal rages, that he will tell my husband of our past affair, if we ask Paul to permanently leave.
Any suggestions on how to handle Paul better than I have so far?
My neighbor has tried to keep him from spending so much time at her house, monopolizing all of her time, but she’s a co-dependent, like I mentioned before, as am I.
Hello,
I was so shocked to see a site that describes my husband to a “t”/ Utterly charming to others, emotionally abusive at home. Not always. But definitely so. In front of the children today he yelled at me to leave to go, trying to make me out to be the bad guy. For the past few years, I make a joke of “everything being my fault” because it is so ridiculous-whatever it is, no matter what, it is MY fault. I used to just admit to it-”yes, its all my fault. its always my fault” blah blah blah. Just to get him to shut up & stop blaming me. I knew itwas not my fault. I KNEW he would never admit when he was at fault….so why not just jokingly, ALWAYS take the blame if ANYTHING went wrong?
I cannot believe I have lived in this environment with my children.
All of the information about it making the victim more and more upset over time-so true.
I used to have more patience than anyone I knew.
Over time, of getting blamed, lies, things turned around…it makes it hard to believe in yourself.
I know they are lies. But after a while you wonder if its you, even if you know its not.
I wish I had the answer. Hopefully I can find some here.
Thank you for having this site.
Tammi everything you said is true about being blamed and over time you start to believe it. I had a friend tell me today I am not the person I used to be. I am beaten down and holding back. You may not see what the abusiveness has done to you but ask some of your friends.
Anyone – any thoughts on this…I went to bed last nite and my husband had the “white noise” sound machine turned the whole way up, was lying in bed reading “Forgive for Love” and had earplugs in. You have to understand we live in the country and there were no other sounds. When I asked him to please turn down the sound machine ( ocean waves and seagulls) he refused. I turned it down myself and he turned it back up. I asked him again. He refused. I had no choice but to sleep downstairs.
I know you probably smiled when you saw what he was reading and doing. It doesnt make any reasonable sense.
Is it better to back down and avoid the arguement by sleeping elsewhere or stand up for your right to sleep there? I chose the first option.
Hi Jean,
Well this is really is a mess. I can only give you my thoughts and recommendations Jean which are these;
a. You did the right thing to warn your neighbour.
b. You need to let your husband know about the affair AND let the police now that Paul is blackmailing you (because that is what it is). I don’t think that you should lie to your husband but I do think you can honestly play down your role in the matter. He DID target you because he wanted you to let him stay and now it is quite obvious he is doing the same thing next door. Your husband will be angry and you can’t stop that but you can use the advice in The Love Safety Net Workbook to bring him as close as you can and show him that you regret what you have done and that you love him and want him close. If you stay calm and loving and accept his anger without needing to change it and just apologise – hopefully it will then be turned on Paul where it belongs. You need to tell your husband that you want Paul out of your life and that you have already told the police about him blackmailing you. Don’t give Paul even the slightest crack at turning your husband against you.
This is your family that you are protecting and you cannot help Paul in any other way than to show him that his game is not going to work and that people are not pawns.
Hang in there Jean and I would say you need to vow to never let someone come between you and a direct family member again.
Kim
PS. I would also suggest you get 10 steps to Overcoming codependence for your neighbour and yourself!!!
Hi Coz,
It sounds like your husband has a big problem with envy which he also tries to hide. Saying he liked the concert later was his way of being the authority but I bet he was still feeling very jealous inside.
I think if you were to buy and print Emotional Stupidity and The Little Book of Empathy Love and friendship from our site and have them printed at your local print shop (as they come as PDF’s to read on screen) and leave them lying around for him to see and pick up would be a good start. The Love Safety Net Workbook would also be good for you. If I were you I would also try and add as much healthy fat to your husbands diet as possible. Sardines, Salmon and Evening Primrose Oil if he will take it. If not use avocado oil and walnut oil on salads. As a guide try to use nut oils without heating them, coconut oil if you are frying food and don’t use seed oils at all.
This along with exercise is the best treatment for depression and even though your husbands problems obviously go deeper than that the biochemical impact healthy fat has on our system is quite profound and it will still help.
Most important of all is that you don’t leave it to him to make the changes that are necessary now. If he is so conflicted that he cannot even watch a concert without going through the kind of inner turmoil you describe, how is he going to make the right decisions about the rest of his life.
Oh and as for his stand on drugs, look on the bright side that he is not an addict. That is a real plus.
Kim
PS. I just came back to edit this because Steve told me it was you CD, sorry about that (blush!) of course you have our workbook etc. I hope that you still got something out of my response (-:
Hi Vicki,
I think you need to be careful. You do not seem to have much respect or attraction to this man and so even if he is rich you are still letting yourself down to pretend you like him more than you do. You may think you have the upper hand now but that won’t last for long and you could end up in a very dangerous situation indeed.
As he has admitted trust is an issue I would also suggest that if you want to break up with him you organise it so that he can pretend it was his idea (there is more on this in “Back from the Looking Glass”). Trust me, with this kind of man who sees you as a mother figure and is rich you are better to be a big person and take the fall (let yourself be dumped) than face the betrayal and abandonment that a rich man has the resources to act out to epic proportions. If you can’t read between the lines of what I am saying here I will be plain by saying that if you let him end it you will be much SAFER and freer to then carry on with your own life too.
Hang in there Vicki,
Kim
Hi Tammy,
There are a lot of amazing people here who will sympathise with you I know! I will suggest however that you first make the small investment in our ebooks because the situation you describe is only going to deteriorate without you taking some big steps now. I really feel for you but you do not want to wait until you truly want to kill him (like I did) till you seek help.
I am so glad you have found us, their is a safe little island here where if you have trouble with the steps you need to take you can come and get help.
Hang in there Tammy (-:
Kim
Hi Joyanne,
You did the right thing by not letting him provoke you, but how long can that go on? It is very important to choose your battles and that may and may not be the right battle right now. Once you have got more to the heart of what his narcissism is built on and you are ready to make some serious moves to shift the power balance, with the help of a support team, you may be in a position to say “Turn on that torture apparatus of yours again and I will ….. (something will real consequences like “be forced to talk to —– about your aggression towards me in this regard) and then you put earplugs in (so even if he does turn it on there is no fight only consequences) and you go to sleep.
Until you are on very firm footing however I would definitely say choose your battles. There is a great story I read once about Elton John who was ripped to shreds by the tabloids for years. The press believed they had him because even though he filed law suits against their slander he hesitated to have them heard as they would involve having his private life dragged into the public eye in court. While it looked like he was cowering scared however he really was baiting them and waiting and finally the right tabloid story came. It was a story that said his dogs had had their voice boxes surgically removed and were ‘silent assassins’. This story had nothing to do with his private life and was easy to disprove (I may be wrong but I think he didn’t even own dogs). He immediately sprung into action and withdrew all the other suits and presented this one to be heard straight away. Not only did he receive a big payout he also got a front page apology and it was this point he became friends with every celebrity in London as well as the royal family including the queen because they were all so thrilled that someone had finally beaten them. So I will say it again Joyanne, choose you battles wisely and make sure you are fully prepared.
Hang in there,
Kim
Hi Allison,
You cannot say that if you do x the outcome will be y but you can say that if you do x your situation will improve.
For instance say X is;
a. Live within my means
b. Eat fresh and healthy food
c. Improve my relationship skills
d. Get sunshine and fresh air everyday
etc.
So here are some things you can do that I would suggest will improve things;
First I would say to look at your negative inner self talk (“there is NOTHING I can do, I can NEVER stop his be
haviour etc”). Whenever we start using NEVER, NOTHING or ALWAYS it means that we are in defense and not in
touch with the truth.
Second I would set some goals for your own life and do do your own gap work (in the Love safety net Workbook)
as this will help you give up your unhealthy dream that it is a relationship that will save you. Simpleology would
also be great for you and I always recommend it;
http://www.simpleology.com/p/s101/kimcoo/ty1/
Third I would say that you need to stop looking at your husband’s supply and instead focus on the bad behaviour you mention.
You CAN do something about that (and you must) and Back from the Looking Glass and The Love Safety Net Workbook will help you
with that when you find the courage to make a stand.
In short your WILL needs to be stronger than his and you need to have a plan that considers everyone’s best interests – and be saying
to yourself that you are going to win and you deserve to take the helm because you are a grounded, calm and confident person
who truly cares about your family. This is what I would say you need to work towards and if you set small goals and take small
steps there is no guarantee where that will lead, but there is an extremely good chance it will be somewhere better than where
you are right now.
Hang in there Allison!
Kim
PS. One last thought … If you are doing x only to get reaction y then that means you are attempting to manipulate too! You need to take
the steps we offer because they are what will make you safer and stronger and to feel better about yourself NOT as a form of trying to
squeeze what you want out of this man. Ask yourself, do you really know him or love him or feel for him as a person? Or are you just in
love with the fantasy of a prince charming? If you need him to live up to your fantasy this is a big sign of narcissism in you too!
Hi Everyone,
I am sorry it has been so long since I have dropped in here to answer questions!
I am working on a new blog that will be out in about a week and which I am very excited about and hope you will all enjoy and support.
This year has been very tough for our business as the Australian dollar has continued to strengthen it has nearly halved our income and as I will not put the prices of our material up (again) it means I am forced to spend most of my time now studying how to get our sites better ranked in Google to save us some money in advertising.
The new blog has been set up so it will hopefully get picked up better by the search engines and will also include a lot of new free content which I have also been busy creating.
As always we remain committed to help those who need us (-:
You can help us too by finding our YouTube channel at;
http://www.youtube.com/user/kimandSteveCooper
and when you watch our movies there make sure you watch them right to the end (so it counts as being viewed) and then if you like it also rate it.
You can also let people know about us and direct them to our site.
OK so I will let you know when the new blog is up and till then hang in there!
I think you are all the most beautiful women!!!
Till next week,
Kim (-:
Hi everyone, I have just found Kim and Steve’s website and this blog. I have been in a relationship with a man for the past year and have only in the past few weeks discovered that the overwhelmingly confusing behavior he has exhibited is due to NPD. He and I dated each other 38 years ago and I got pregnant with his child at that time. The baby was lost and we broke up. Just this last year our paths crossed when he contacted an old mutual friend and got in contact with me about doing some work for him. I agreed, and within the first week he began telling me how he has never been able to forget me and did the usual overwhelming grooming of me to become romantically involved with him.”I was the love of his life.”….. “He would never do anything to cause the demise of our relationship because he has waited to be with me all of these years.”….. It was two months or more of intense loving and romantic grooming. It was intoxicating and successful. The first two months were absolutley wonderful, and obviously I know now, bought into my very needy self. I had had no experience with anyone with his issues of NPD and also Commitment Phobia. Do the two often go hand in hand? Gradually over the months things became very confusing and sometimes emotionally abusive,which I would overlook and excuse because “after all he has loved me so much for so long,” how could he really be acting in an abusive way??? (I now absolutely realize how my co-dependant issues played into all of this and am working on those) From the begining he proclaimed how much he wanted to marry me but over the next several months many excuses (especially financial, which was ridiculous becasue he is very well off) began to be thrown out as to why he couldn’t marry me any time in the near future. I just had a realization today that his attachment to his money is likely his avenue of self-soothing. He needs his money to buy and purchase things for “Himself” to make himself feel secure in his future and to be able to “soothe” his feelings of inferiority and lack of self esteem. He fears that he will run out of this money and that is a very fearful place for him. After all what else does he have and what else does he feel he has control over??? Any thoughts about that?? …. I began my research and concluded he had full blown Commitment Phobia and began dealing with the relationship with that in mind. This culminated when about a month and a half ago, I finally told him that he could have all the time he needed to make a choice about committing to me but while he was deciding I wasn’t going to continue shutting off all of my other options. Rather than him stepping up to the plate and committing to me,which most normal men would do if they really loved someone,… he reacted by becoming VERY angry and ending the relationship with me.He expressed great anger about me “finding another man, who could obviously give me what he couldn’t” and did alot of twisting things around, making up stuff and blaming me for most everything. Five weeks went by with no communication and then last week he contacted me and we had a discussion about having shared so much that it was a shame to end things on such a negative note. It was during the 5 weeks as I did more research that I realized I was not just dealing with CP but that he was a full blown NPD person as well. I realize that I am lucky to have not gotten into a marriage with this man, as I realize it would have proven to be very difficult. I do want to say however that I loved him very deeply and still struggle with my feelings and being able to let go of all that I thought was good and wonderful and meaningful between us. I do believe that he loves me deeply, as much as he is able! (Just like Steve and Kim have expressed that Steve did love Kim very much, but his NPD got in the way of it being healthy) He has never married and there are many many things that have been discussed and proven to me that he has a deep emotional attachment to me. Albeit much of it was likely fantasy based. (He is 61 and I am 57.) I know that I should be glad there was no marriage and realistically I am. I do however feel so much DEEP compassion and empathy for this man, and his deep struggles and intense lonliness, feelings and fears of abandonment etc. that I would like to be able to help him to recover somehow. This is my co-dependancy speaking I’m sure, but he has no family alive, and really has no friends except for a few phone acquintences that he speaks to every few weeks. I had considered keeping some kind of friendship established so that I could possibly find ways to encourage him to seek professional help, but after coming across Steve and Kim’s web site and reading some of their material I don’t think therapy would ever help him and I don’t believe he would ever agree to see one, anyway. I know that I should be viewing this as the greatest break I have probably ever had in that I did not end up in a marriage with this man. I do still however have deep feelings and empathy as I mentioned. After our last conversation (the one after the 5 week interlude) he expressed his continued love for me and he did call me again later that evening. I know this sounds peculiar but prior to that phone call I had a “ringback” tone on my phone that had been on there for most of the year we dated which was “Our Song” and was Tina Turner’s “Lets stay together”. During the 5 weeks we didn’t speak the “ringtone” expired and I didn’t renew it. Thus when he called me that evening he obviously didn’t hear “Our song”. He acted a little peculiar during the conversation and we hung up. He hasn’t called me back since. I don’t know if he is reacting to the lack of “Our Song” and feels once again that I abandoned him, or if he has just decided after all that he wants no contact with me. Knowing how hyper-sensitive NPD’s can be to the most minute things, I do suspect that this triggered him. He has e-mailed me a few times with some non-intimate e-mails. I guess my question is “If I want to maintain some contact with him in order to possibly bring about some healing for him with these deep issues, should I continue trying to reach out to him, or just step back and let him make contact if he chooses?” I don’t want it to appear that I am pursuing him, but given the unusual responses and deep fears of NPD people I feel a concern that if I step way back and wait for him to come forward with further communication that he will not do that because he feels abandoned by me, twice in the past month or so. Any thoughts?
Hi Kim, thank you for all you’re advise and support. I truly appreciate you and all the people who are here sharing and supporting eachother in such a difficult situation. Good luck with your new blog, I can’t wait to see it. It has really been a life saver to have this support system that you have created. Can’t thank you enough! Hope all is well with you and Steve and the kids and I wish you great success with your business. If anyone deserves it it is someone like you who does such wonderful things for others!
Allison
Hi Kim,
Thank you so much for your thoughts and suggestions – I would never have thought about him being jealous or envious at a concert! Your perception and perspective on human behaviour is astounding! I have been unable to sort out in my mind, or by googling on the internet, this puzzling side of my husband all these years. It goes to show that some things that have remained unanswered may hold a significant key to an overall picture, but before I explain what I mean I would like to add some more information about my husband and what I consider to be unusual response behaviour:
My husband rarely has (if ever) an involuntary “fright or flight” reflex response to unexpected perceived imminent danger. I wouldn’t like to judge that this is linked psychologically or physically with his lack of outward sign of enjoyment or appreciation, but then it might be. I thought I would mention it now just in case. I would like to send you and Steve an entertaining e-mail video-clip a friend sent to me – if that is OK? I do apologise if it frightens you or Steve – it would be G-Rated though I would think. I jumped and gasped with fright at the end of this video clip, and so did my daughter and a couple of friends that I showed it to – we sort of knew what was going to happen, but the involuntary reflex of “fright and flight” still occurred in us.
However when my husband watched it, I expected that he would react in the same way as we all did – he sat there through the whole thing not knowing what to expect but at the end he didn’t even flinch a muscle! He said “Yeah? So what so good about that?” I asked him “Didn’t that frighten you in the least?” He said no, it’s just a computer movie, it’s not real! My husband is terrified of snakes in real life though. I often wonder if a doctor tapped him on the reflex point just below the knee cap whether his lower leg would jerk as it should – I don’t know what that reflex test reveals to doctors anyway! I don’t know if this last piece of additional information is relevant or can cast any more significant light onto our situation.
However my contemplations from your thoughts and suggestions are – my husband loves to be the centre of attention at all times – obviously Johnny Farnham would have been the centre of attention in that public arena, and to say that my husband would have been envious or jealous of the attention being on Johnny Farnham instead of my husband makes sense. My visual memory of his facial expression, body language and lack of outward display of enjoyment or appreciation on the night does match that of jealousy & envy, and his subsequent judgement of the concert with his air of authority and superiority is about being better than everyone else – including Johnny Farnham.
This question and answer has just made so many pennies drop in my mind about our relationship – I always knew about my husband’s need to always be the centre of attention and THE authority figure on everything in his life and in the world, and his need to always be right even if he knows he is wrong – what I didn’t appreciate was the amount of jealousy and envy he could experience if he felt displaced from the number one position in his or any hierarchy.
My husband is now extremely domineering and controlling, and he has disdain for those who do not support his opinions, or have an opinion opposite to his, or do not comply with his demands, especially when it is me or either of our two adult children.
He constantly criticises or character assassinates us or others – either to our face, or back stabbing us or both. It breaks my heart when he backstabs my children to me, and this has been the most difficult button pushing to overcome. In the past I have tried denouncing his criticisms and/or defending our kids or myself or others from his tyrannical onslaughts. Obviously that did not work, it only served to widen the rift, but now I have been using your magic scissors this has working for the most part like “I don’t like where this is going, it is distressing me and I don’t want to go there, etc”. He will either stop the crap, or say something like “Oh, well alright, I won’t say anything then because I am always wrong!” or something similar in a tone and facial expression that says he is hostile, hurting and downtrodden. I have learned a long time ago in Al-Anon to keep my tone low and respectful at all times so I do not validate this frequently used victim type of response of his or escalate the situation.
He still tries to use that type of emotional blackmail to get me in there – it takes a lot of self-control to stay out of the ring, and I usually achieve this by changing the subject or finding something else to do or by self-soothing. Nevertheless he can remain angry, sulking and stone faced for hours and sometimes days or weeks at a time. Our counsellor told me not to internalise his anger, that he is not just angry at me – he is angry at the world.
My husband does display jealousy toward me for my close relationship with our kids, and he creates a drama of some kind to try and take away my attention from them and divert it to him, although this pattern of behaviour can be obvious, it can also be quite obscure at times until after the drama is over and I can reflect on what has just happened.
About 10 years ago, after 6 years of study, I was nominated for two prestigious academic awards. My husband did not want to go to the presentation night at first, but then he decided to go right at the last minute (attention seeking tiny tantrum?). At the venue he drank too much, became loud, obnoxious and embarrassing. I won one of those awards – and not only did he spoil my special night for me, but he could not handle me being in the limelight instead of him. When the MC gave a short spiel about me while presenting the award to me, I could hear my husband in the middle of the audience of about 500 people saying loudly (along with other relentless childish behaviour) “I taught her everything she knows!” It is one thing for him to be jealous and envious of me and my academic achievement, but I never would have thought he would get jealous or envious of an international star!
Our daughter as a child was a brilliant musician – she won many awards and was highly praised by an Eisteddfod judge one time who is a Doctor of Music – she was spellbound by our daughter’s performance and encouraged her to go as far as she could with her music. My husband behaved almost the same as he did at the Johnny Farnham Concert – although he did clap his hands this time albeit reluctantly, and while everyone else clapped enthusiastically for a long time, my husband finished clapping after about 3 slow claps then folded his arms again – appearing to be quite uninspired and disinterested.
It is so sad, my husband is talented, hardworking, intelligent, capable, athletic, lovable, successful and much more, and he is to be respected for those traits – but he has a dark side and this emotional immaturity that prevents him from just loving and accepting himself – his authentic self, and others for themselves. While my husband continues to strive for the limelight, he will continue to have huge issues with jealousy and envy. His recent depression has seen him become an out of character recluse, and he has little interest in having fun, he just wants to criticise and fight all the time. What a shame that he lacks empathy & humility for his wife and children and others – perhaps never to experience the real joy of truly appreciating another person’s talents or successes. Now I know a lot more about what dynamics I am dealing with I can take an even more emotionally intelligent and compassionate approach toward him, whether we are together or apart. I agree he is not in a good place to be making a life changing decision, so we will just take it very slowly for the moment. I am hoping the doctor will have convinced him to follow up the real help offered to him for his insomnia – quality sleep is extremely important in any stressful lifestyle.
Thank you once again for your help and support Kim, as always it is invaluable. Remember to rub Bhudda’s belly for luck and prosperity in your coming ventures – it works!
All the best,
CD.
Wow! My first reply HAD to be for Laura.
Laura, I know the exact same family that you mentioned: NPD meets TOTAL DEPENDENT! The dad was extremely abusive. He married a woman who was mentally retarded (not to be politically incorrect, this was her diagnosis back then). They have many children. They ALL have some type of problem. People used to joke around town about how the mother dropped the kids on their head, until recently we could not understand how they all had some type of problem.
It was found out recently that they have some type of disorder, I can’t remember what it is called, but they can tell at birth that they will have it because they are missing a (or have an extra, I can’t recall) chromosome. The father would put expensive electronics in his childrens bookbags, then act as if he was completely appalled when they were caught! He has left his family now, and lives in another country. He remarried to an extremely submissive wife (but not disabled) and he only took the one boy, who, coincidentally, is not showing any mental problems.
This really makes it clear that an abuser DOES NOT need a submissive wife… they need help.
I was just so amazed that you know the same family, I really didn’t think there was another one of them out there!
Hi Kim,
Thank you so much for everything! Your capacity for love is a true gift!
I am looking for a little inspiration to keep me going. I am a bit frustrated today.
My spouse and I were a little bit late finding you. We had already broke up, but we were still living together. I am trying to employ your methods, but we went backwards a lot from the breakup.
We have four years together. It took me four years to convince him that as a couple, we must make decisions together. It took 3 years to get him to combine our money. (This is important in our relationship… if it is his money, he can spend it any way he wants, and he goes madly into debt. If it is our money he must make decisions with me prior to making any large purchases). It took 4 years to convince him to quit drinking… which he did upon our breakup to get back together with me.
So, I told him recently that I will never abandon him. Two things run through his mind with this: “She wants me back for my money” (He recently screwed me financially, so I am broke for the first time in 4 years) and “I don’t have to make any effort to keep her because she is never going to leave me”.
I am now looking to you to inspire me to keep going. Did this happen to you when you told Steve you would never leave?
I am also wondering: Does Steve now genuinely care about you? Does he feel real compassion and empathy? This is not to question your success… I believe that Steve’s actions are now more respectful, more productive and less abusive. I have a mood disorder… I feel things very strongly, and no amount of cognitive work takes that away. I feel at times that the world is out to get me, but I choose not to act on that. But narcissism is a personality disorder, which may be different.
I now wonder, Steve: do you still “feel” that you deserve better, or that you are better than others? Do you still “feel” angry/ vengeful when someone hurts or criticizes you? Do you choose to ignore these feeling because you “know” that they are not right? Or, with Kim’s help with trust and love, did you learn to feel the same compassion and empathy for others that Kim feels?
This is for Lana.
I went through similar things as you have described and let me tell you that I realized early on after my separation that my life did not revolve around him any longer. After having an emotional breakdown it took my daughter to snap me out of it. I would sleep all day, gave up my job, was crying all the time and my daughter walked into my room one day and said “Mommy it’s time to get up”. To me I heard, “Mommy it’s time to wake your butt up and take care of us cause we need you! Ever since then I have been up on my own two feet. Depending on him for anything should no longer be an issue. If he has other women, let them have him! It’s time to take care of you because let me tell ya, no one else will. Dig down deep inside your heart to find the beautiful person you are and then start letting it shine through. Set small goals for yourself, goals you can achieve each day and then slowly build them into bigger achievable goals. Treat yourself when you have accomplished them. Do not allow him to make you feel bad anymore. It took me telling my ex husband that I was not going to put up with him putting me down anymore and telling him I wanted no contact from him except dealing with the childrens school and doctors appointments and then when he tried to contact me outside of that…I gave NO response. I blame myself for allowing my exhusband to treat me as he did because I did not have the strength or know how to defend myself. We all have our breaking point to where something has to give. Tell yourself you can do it no matter what…and then find something to do other than worry about him and his many females!
Lisa
Lisa, I want to comment on your post, sharing my own experience of how I stopped getting mistreated. First of all, I used to act very melancholy…blamed myself for not being a good enough wife, partner, person. Finally, I hooked up with a lady-mentor who happened to have narcissistic traits and abused me mentally, spiritually, and emotionally for almost 3 years or so. After that, I began realizing that I attracted abusers and I found my VOICE in a couple ways.
I went through mental health and got on some meds that helped fix the frontal lobe of my brain so I could think right. Then, I went to college to find out who I was and begin working toward a career.
When the first instance of child abuse began with my first daughter (not his child), my mother threatened me that if I did not take action, she would report us BOTH! At that very time, I began telling him he would NEVER lay a hand on our children to discipline them again. When he tried once, I LEFT till he went for counselling and I saw change. The physical abuse stopped from him. Now, it’s mostly little verbal digs and I stand up to him and tell him to stop acting narcissistically, which he hates, but it works. We’ve been married 22 years so I speak from experience. We have 3 other children together besides my eldest. If I can be of any help or encouragement, please let me know. I’m currently working toward my BA in Psychology.
~Laura
Hi Laura,You stated that you were given medicine from mental health to fix a part of your brain.Did the medicine help you think faster?Tell me more about what that medicine does for you.I am very interested because i have problems with my thinking ability.Hope to hear from you very soon!
Hi Neicy.
Thanks so much for responding. I love to be heard and to share what worked for me.
Yes, I was on Topomax for 9 months. It actually corrected my front-lobal activity of neurotransmitters firing back n forth the wrong way. Before being on this medicine my behavior was very similar to a bipolar person’s. I couldn’t focus, couldnt’ stick with anything for any length of time, was very depressed, often suicidal, hated my life, my family, everything and everyone, just waiting to die. I believe Topamax was my answer God sent when I finally just cried out to Him in surrender! I wanted revenge on people so badly back then and I couldnt’ stop wanting it till I got on those meds! I can’t explain it to someone who doesn’t understand what it feels like to be DRIVEN to do things you don’t want to do, but that’s how it was. It was terrifying! I am so grateful God gave me an answer and set me free. Feel free to keep writing and asking me questions if you want. You can always email me or post here. God be with you.
Hi Laura, Thanks for responding back.I am so happy that God has set you free and now you are delivered from that situation.I have a lot of trouble focusing, thinking, concentration,paying attention.I have not had any of the symptoms that you have experienced, but i am tired of suffering with this because it is affecting my life.Do you know if the Topomax will help with my type of problem? Meanwhile i will try and found out.God bless you!
Yes Topomax will help you focus and concentrate. It slows things down so you can think one thought at a time.
Hi Laura,
Is Topomax the same as Topamax with the active ingredient “topiramate”?
CD
Yes, Topomax is Topapiramate. At the time the psychiatrist prescribed it for me, it was only used in Epilepsy. I read some articles about it, and found out that bipolar disorders are starting to be linked with petit mal seizures in the brain. My doctor told me that it was highly likely that since I was in oxygen as a baby, due to complications at birth, I may have had some neurological disruptions in the temporal lobes of my brain, therefore causing undetected mild seizures, later resembling bipolar disorder. This would cause the topomax to work for me as an anti-convulsant. What the psychiatrist was and still is baffled by, is that people on Topomax generally NEVER GET OFF OF IT, whereas, it seems that my brain was actually “healed.” I have no evidence of bipolar syndrome anymore.
Hi all,
First – topomax can be used as a mood stabilizer, especially for aggitated depression type symptoms; as well as an anti-seizure medication. Daniel Amen MD who has done a lot of research on corrolating SPECT scans (a type of brain imaging study that shows what areas of the brain are under of over active) with mental health issues uses Topomax and other novel mood stabilizers a lot with what he calls “ring of fire” activation and some other “overactive” brains. I would caution too wide spread enthusiasm about it because many people also experience cognitive slowing or clouding on it. I hope that current and future research in the field of psychiatry gets better at predicting who will respond how to which meds.
MR
Second – personally I am saddened to hear that you are struggling again CD, because I too was feeling hopeful, yet my husband came back last night from his big conference just to start in on a ton of nit picking (why was there no hamper in our room, why was there no extra toilet paper roll in the 3rd floor bathroom – ie why if I can not do it myself can I not organize our nanny/housekeeper to take care of it.) Basically just back to how inadequate I am and how he is the only one who can get anything done …
Things snowballed as the day progressed because we were to meet my parents for a Christmas concert, and they had the wrong place (although it was the same place we had gone with them several times before). They are older, not functioning too well, and refuse to cary a cell phone. I should have had them follow us, or drive with us, but I didn’t (in part because things were already a mess here.) Of course it was all my fault and just another example of how I can’t do anything right. I hate being put down or insulted in front of my kids and now in front of my parents. I don’t like my boys being told again and again how incompetent I am etc. etc.
I’m slipping back into it again, and really feeling like I can’t do things any differently. I am not sure I can tolerate this, nor am I sure that I can keep strong enough to keep pushing back. I don’t like how my boys are starting to behave because it seems they are being taught that they do not need to listen or respect anyone – that everyone is stupid (which is said explicitly quite often.)
Just venting a bit here, but I got sucked into it again. I said some things I only partly believe, but I also worry that things will not get better, that I need someone who can tolerate my flaws, and I am very worried about my boys. … if others have felt this, I think there is a hormonal piece to when I feel more easily provoked and more hopeless.
I’ve been off of this for a while, so I’ve got some catch up reading to do.
MR
right, always check with your psych or doc before choosing meds. I did a LOT of research and talked to people on Topomax before I ever went on it. I was scared about taking any type of brain med as I’d never done that. I only know it worked for me.
Yes, it did slow things down…they nick-named it “dopomax”…people who were on it. It does do that, you are right, but it was worth it to finally be able to live a life in freedom and no more obsessive thoughts, etc.
Thanks Laura,
I was interested because a relative of mine has just been prescribed Topamax for epilepsy and migraine – however I knew that it can be used for other purposes too just as MR describes. I thought maybe your meds might not have been the same because of the different spelling, but I am glad you followed up with strong advice for people to consult with their doctor or psych about treatment for their individual situation or diagnosis, and that you only took Topamax after long and careful consideration and research. I am glad it helped you.
Cheers,
CD
Hi MR,
Thank you for your compassion – I am beginning to wonder if your husband and mine are twins! Mine gets so bullying toward me about everyone and everything, throws both tiny and tumultuous tantrums – he only sees what I haven’t done and not what I have done – but that is the nature of this disorder – to distract from their OWN shortcomings, and to make them feel “powerful”, “perfect” and “in control” – certainly learned behaviour in my husband’s case.
I am fully prepared and fearless to reveal and deal with my own shortcomings at any time, and I will consider constructive criticism from my husband or anyone as it arises, but I always judge each situation by a slogan we used in Al-Anon “How Important Is It?” – if it is trivial, or without merit or a power play, then let it go through to the keeper.
When you told the story about the extra toilet roll, I laughed. I would not suggest you do this, but my Aussie sense of humour and mischief imagined that it would be funny to buy enough toilet rolls to entirely fill the “little house” with fresh white soft multi-ply toilet rolls – floor to ceiling – and watch them all fall on his head when he rushes to the loo after eating his chocolate pudding that “unfortunately” was laced with “Laxettes”! It would bring a whole new dimension to people pleasing! Maybe there still wouldn’t be enough toilet rolls! Sorry – I imagine this stuff but never act it out – I just like to keep a sense of humour to preserve my sanity! My mother-in-law used to say “If you didn’t laugh you would cry!” The point is you can never make someone who behaves in this way “happy” – while you are making this or that right for them, they are onto criticising you for countless more things – it is a power play – he is trying pull you down to make you feel inferior and him feel superior to you – “the man” and the “head of the house”.
I have realised that my husband is never going to get better if I get caught up in his belittling mind games – just keep snipping!. Kim’s recent comment regarding my husband being in deep conflict and having trouble with envy and jealousy really sums him up. He never shuts up being critical of the news, sport on TV, character assassinating successful people and authority figures, and he is racially prejudiced – but he vehemently denies being so. However, most of all he is envious of me and my successes in life, and my rapport with people, and my self-confidence and I see his envious and jealous body language now when people focus their attention on me instead of him – his stories get bigger, better and louder trying to divert the attention back to him.
Over the years since being in Al-Anon and following Kim & Steve’s programme, I have built up my self-confidence and restored my core values and beliefs. I don’t consider myself superior to him (or anyone because I feel humbled by there always being something new to learn in life), but he is constantly behaving superior toward me and toward everyone else in the world, by criticizing and nit-picking and being constantly negative – of course this is to pump up his ego (perhaps subconsciously) albeit vainly just to be accepted by others and/or be in control.
I do accept him exactly how he is, but I also accept the fact that he sees so long as his world around him makes him happy, then he is happy – and I was contributing to that spiritual disease when I was co-dependent on his happiness. My husband does not entirely get (and resists) the concept that happiness comes from within – that each one of us has the ability to love and accept ourselves exactly how we are at any moment in time – with all our strengths and weaknesses (flaws) – but it involves a life long voyage of self-discovery.
When we truly come to love and accept ourselves, and to believe in a Power higher than ourselves, we achieve an inner peace that is rarely disturbed by the behaviour or criticisms of others.
While my husband looks for happiness through external sources he will never find true happiness. He will continue striving for success and happiness through his work (workaholic). He has achieved a high level of business success – but not real happiness. In fact he is a depressed insomniac now, probably with a liver that is stuffed through decades of alcohol abuse, but he continues to be driven in his work. He has forgotten how and does not want to relax and play. It is sad.
After his most recent tumultuous tantrum where he tried to provoke a fight, but I did not bite, he took off to the bedroom sulking in a flurry of victim like comments expecting me to follow him – but I did not. This is an old game of his which I stopped reacting to a long, long time ago because I realised it was attention seeking and him only being comfortable with drama and not peace. An emotionally mature man 53 years of age would not behave this way – I know my father certainly would not. I relaxed on the lounge and read a magazine, and about 30 minutes later, he came down stairs and apologized for his earlier outburst – he never apologizes normally, but it sounded genuine. I didn’t say “That’s OK” though, instead I spoke to him in a respectful and assertive way with a low voice tone, saying that his behaviour was not acceptable, that I feel intimidated and anxious when he behaves that way, and it is not the behaviour of the man I married. I said that he is right – we have grown apart – and I believe that this stressful business we have both been partners in since 1983 has taken its toll – it has changed the both of us – and now it is time to say enough is enough, that it is time to start closing the business down as it will take years to do so. To my surprise, but not so surprising really, he looked horrified at first but then his face muscles relaxed – one of us had to make this decision – and right at that moment I could see that he did not have the courage, nor did he know when to make this decision and how to go about it – all he knew was that he has had enough of the physical, mental and emotional drain the business has had on him (and me). I think we have both felt like we have been driving a freight train we didn’t know how to stop for many years now and we are both burnt out.
Although he has a “tough” image he is really a very anxious person (chews his nails until they bleed!) and he frequently feels inadequate (incomplete high-school education although very intelligent and hampered by dyslexia), but he has guts and rises to every challenge confronting him – hiding his anxiety and inadequacy by being bullying. It is a credit to him though what he has achieved by his own talents, intelligence, dedication and physical stamina. He is however dependent on me in many ways for running the business, and vice versa. It is a big fear to face – giving up our successful business – it may be the best or the worst decision we could ever make career wise and marriage wise – all I know is we cannot continue down this road unless my husband finds his authentic self through spiritual enlightenment and belief in a Power higher than himself.
Sorry – I have nearly written another book! I agree – it is good to vent – hopefully my experience helps in some way.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD
Hi to everyone. I’m not sure where to start. I found this site way to late. I was married to a man for 13 years that I believe has NPD. I have read so many of your posts and have felt the same way so many of you feel. Now I am faced with the fall out of my decision to leave. The divorce has been reasonably respectful considering the possibilities. The issue I am having now is child suppor, custody and getting the rest of my personal property from his house. We have no judgement in place and I am afraid to persue one because he has threatened to drag me threw an emotional hell and file for custody of our three children. Not that I think he will win but I do not want the fight.
Our agreement, when I moved out, was that he would pick the children up before and after school two or three days a week, depending on his days off, and keep them until 7:00 p.m. We also agreed that he would keep the children over night on Friday and Saturday nights that he did not have to work. This amounts to four nights per month but leaves him with no weekend time where he does not either have the children or have to work. Our child support agreement was based on him having the children 50% of the time. He would pay 50% of any additional medical/dental expenses not covered by his insureance and he would pay half for their clothing. So far he has not paid his share of those expenses. When I agreed to the support amount I did not take into consideration that I would be providing ALL of the diapers and milk for the baby during the week. Or that I would be providing breakfast, doing their laundry and supplying all of their toiletries. These are things I have always done without considering the expense until I did not have money for diapers and shampoo.
Four months into this he stopped picking them up in the morning because it was too much for him to be on time (his girlfriend lives an hour away from us). I fanally had to tell him that it was causing too much anxioty for the children and me. I explained that it was not okay for him to call five minutes before he was supposed to arrive to say he was running late or he was not going to make it. Or to just show up late. He made the decision to stop comming altgether.
For the last year he has been unavailabel, sent one or two of the children to his mothers or had her come to his house to babysit the children so he could go out. His latest stunt was to take the youngest with him to his girlfriends house for the weekend. The oldest child was with her grandmother and the middle child was with me because she did not want to go with her dad. She was angry with him for being late to pick her up from school one day last week (he kept her waiting for 20 min). She was so upset about it that the following day she was sick and did not go to school.He generally does not have all three of the children at the same time over night. Our youngest child is two and a half the oldest is twelve. His mother can not handle the baby over night so he is forced to keep him.
I am upset that he upset our daughter and she feels like she is not important to him. I am upset that he took the baby to spend the night with his girlfriend. It is hard enough for the children to go back and forth between his house and mine without adding in another location. I am further upset that over all he has the children between 15 and 20 percent of the time not 50% and he does not feel like he should have to pay more child support.
I want to file for more child support and to modify our custody areement so that he will be free on the weekends to have his social life without making the children feel like they are not a prority. The modification will not affect the percent of time he has with the children just the days he will have them over night. Part of me is wondering if I am jelous or angry because he can not see that if he would have spent time with the children and I like he is spending with his girlfriend and had he been faithful/honest we would still be together. The reallity is that he and his girlfriend have already had their share of problems so I can imagine what he is REALY giving her. He has said she does not trust him but, that is a whole other story. So I ask; am I really looking out for myself and my children? What can I do to protect my children from feeling like they are NOT a prority to him other than modify the visitation to better accomodate his social life? How can I get him to agree without feeling like I am critisizing him? I do believe he is doing the best HE can and I do not want to judge him for that or make him feel defensive.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you
Cindy
Cindy – quick thoughts … it is not good for your girls to have to tolerate so much inconsistency not to mention feeling like they are “less important” than dad’s new girlfriend. Trust you instincts and politely restate reasonable expectations and get others to support your position.
CD – Thanks again for sharing. I do have complete confidence that your husband’s need for you is beyond the role you provide in the business, and I hope that he has grown enough to see this for himself and value it.
There do seem to be many similarities in our spouses – the anxieties and the resultant insomnia (or sometimes just very erratic sleep patterns) the thriving on being in the proximity of very powerful people, the feelings of entitlement and criticizing everyone and everything. I’m sure there are countless others if I gave it a little more thought. The depression is currently setting in as part of the post conference let down … constant jabs at me, making fortunately)small promises to the boys and then spending a good portion of the past few days lying down in bed.
Many times your sharing has helped me to regain a balanced perspective on things – to reconsider where certain behaviors are likely being driven by difficulty with my being in charge, or other power struggles … ie – the total rage reaction I got the other day when I set some limit over what and how he was saying to me. Still frightening, but things settle back much more quickly now.
It sounds like you are comfortable with starting the process of closing down your business. Transitions and endings are never easy, and I hope this allows you both to find some time to reconnect and to enjoy life. Maybe you have given him permission to say that this is good enough (probably only for that evening, but it is the first step in accepting it longer term
It sounds like it will be a process, which will give you time to accommodate and adjust as you go along.
MR (who now can’t walk in our wash room without giggling at the image of it packed full with toilet paper.)
FYI to all
Fatty acids (fish oils and other healthy oils) as an adjunct to depression/anxiety treatment have been mentioned here recently. Here is one of the stronger pieces of research I just came across. (Ref avail if anyone wants it)
This timely new review, supported by the American Psychiatric Association (APA), summarizes for clinicians both the theory and the available evidence that omega-3 fatty acids may help in the prevention and management of a wide range of psychiatric disorders.
The APA committee made the following specific treatment recommendations on the basis of the available evidence:
* all adults should eat fish at least 2 x week
* patients with mood, impulse control or psychotic disorders should consume 1g/day of EPA + DHA (the omega-3 found in fish oils)
* a supplement may be useful in patients with mood disorders (1-9g/day). Use of > 3g/day should be monitored by a physician. (MOST RESEARCH I HAVE FOUND SUGGEST THE RANGE OF 3-6g/day)
THESE SOUND LIKE WEAK ENDORSEMENTS, BUT ARE QUITE STRONG COMING FROM AN AGENCY THAT IS SO ENMESHED WITH THE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY.
The meta-analysis of 8 studies involving patients with depression or bipolar disorder showed OVERALL SIGNIFICANT BENEFITS from omega-3 treatment (p < 0.03) although there was considerable variability between studies. This indicates the need to consider differences between study populations as well as doses and ratios of EPA:DHA used. It was noted that most positive trials used EPA primarily or exclusively, rather than DHA
Importantly, this review summarizes evidence from epidemiological (population), experimental and clinical treatment trials to give a far more complete picture than most conventional systematic reviews or 'meta-analyses'. The latter were also performed, however, in areas where there was sufficient evidence from randomized controlled trials to merit this.
MR
Wow,
So I’m totally lost here. I don’t know what happened. I just found out my husband has been cyber searching for his ex. He is well aware that this crosses the boundaries. He understands how this hurts me. I don’t know what to do. I am downstairs on the couch, and avoided the “fight”. I expressed that it is NOT acceptable, and that I am sad and confused. I didn’t yell. I didn’t do anything extreme. I don’t know what to do though. I am lost. I thought we were better. Dealing with this behavior is so hard. I am just so sad…. How do you love someone that doesn’t want to love you back?????????????
Hi, I’m an adult child of a NPD mom, and currently her court-appointed Guardian/Conservator. She is legally incapacitated, but still able to play the games I’ve become familiar with for 51 years. Things are not going well, and it seems the nicer I am to her, the meaner she is to me. I have bent over backwards to meet her demands, but all I get is criticism, as usual. To me, this is very vindictive behavior. She’s also been diagnosed with other severe personality disorders, such as Passive/aggressive, Anxiety, etc. I noticed this site is for marrieds (partners) and such, but what about kids of NPD parents? Am I welcome here to find answers, or would you direct me to another site? Thank you for your consideration.
Hi,
What’s the song of the male narcissist? where could i read it?
Hi Allison,
Remember when Kim discovered some painful things that Steve was up to? That was Kim’s turning point to take charge of her situation and her life by facing her fears (becoming her own hero). Kim had come a very long way, but this was when the heaviest work began not only on Steve, but on herself.
All our decisions are based on FEAR. Probably one of the biggest fears each one of us here faces is the fear of losing or leaving our loved one, or the fear of being abandoned or rejected by them.
We become dysfunctional physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually if we let the FEAR of losing our loved one override our perspective on being true to ourselves and our core values and beliefs by not taking a stance on what is morally or lawfully right. We do this by PROTECTING our loved one from the NATURAL consequences of their unacceptable behaviour or actions.
If you know that a particular behaviour by your husband IS morally unacceptable, or against the law, or is harmful in some way to yourself, your family or to others – and you DECIDE NOT to do anything about it by not getting the appropriate support, or you shield them from the NATURAL consequences of their actions, then you need to self-analyse what FEAR in you leads you to that decision, and address that fear.
Our decisions are ALWAYS FEAR DRIVEN, whether or not that fear is positive or negative, rational or irrational. However there is a difference between:
• Deciding who you will get support from, and not standing in the way of the natural consequence of unacceptable behaviour – which may or may not in turn bring about change in him. Even if your husband does not feel compelled to (or resists) change he will certainly have felt the heat of reality being turned up on him at that point in time;
• Not deciding what to do because you have not yet figured out what the real issue is or the solution, or what the natural consequence to the unacceptable behaviour should be, or who to get support from. This is why self-soothing is so important – it brings us back to earth from being angry and hurt, and perhaps reacting impulsively – maybe missing a bigger picture in the process;
• Deciding that you will not do anything because it may be at too great a cost to your husband, and/or that you don’t want to “hurt” him, or that you fear his reaction to your stance (perhaps abuse and/or his abandonment of you). Ultimately your fear is that you may suffer in some way as a result of taking a truthful stance for what is right morally and/or lawfully. This path actually hurts both you and him by ENABLING the unacceptable behaviour to continue, and it breeds disrespect for each other, a loss of self-respect, and it allows the fantasy side to your relationship to continue;
We must stand up for what is right and we should not protect our loved one from the NATURAL consequences of their unacceptable behaviour or actions. To do that we must zero in on what our FEARS are that hinder us from standing up for what is right – and reject those fears by having the courage to override them – to change the things we can (but remember that “things” are not people).
Maybe Kim felt she had nothing more to lose, but everything to gain by facing her fears, and by getting real with herself and Steve – which set herself free to take charge of her life, and the result was that she built mutual true love, respect and trust in her marriage – and part of that was by making Steve face reality and the natural consequences of his actions.
Kim did not take the role of judge, jury and jailer, but instead, after assessing any given situation and getting the appropriate support, she became the “middle person” or mediator/messenger to get the appropriate support or action required for Steve to get in touch with reality at that time. Kim had made a conscious life changing decision NOT TO PROTECT Steve from reality anymore – she had to become brave and to be her own hero – to set aside any fear that she may have had of losing her husband or publicly embarrassing, shaming or humiliating him and/or herself. This last point is what I admire so much about Kim – her intuitiveness, courage and determination to face each challenge no matter what the consequences to Steve or herself were – but in the end, the truth and reality set them free from the fantasy.
For example, Kim made her husband face the law where the natural consequence could have been that Steve would go to jail – that must have taken a huge amount of courage! But it also stopped the behaviour that had existed in more than one of her relationships.
Kim had to deal with many different issues in her marriage, and she dealt with her husband’s (perhaps benign) search for fantasy love in the most appropriate way as she describes throughout their material. I would say that Kim then had Steve so busy worrying about the bigger REAL issues and what she had coming next that he apparently did not search for fantasy love again!
Just for now set aside your emotional hurt about your husband searching the internet for his ex – it is still fantasy for the moment – and the intent may have been harmless – searching for someone who now may just be a friend and he may have just been curious about whatever happened to her. If you know it is more insidious – then SNIP it for now anyway!
Think about his real and bigger issues which you have spoken about before – and how you have addressed those issues so far, think about what successes you have had and how you have grown and what challenges remain. Do you need to build on your support network to bring him to account better than has been achieved so far? Do you have a back-up plan or a nest egg to keep a roof over your head and food on the table, etc for you and your children in an emergency situation?
I do feel for you, it is not easy – but have courage and faith and always remember that you have the love, support and understanding of many people here as you face each challenge. Think about how long you have been following this program and how far you have come. Think about how difficult it has been to change your own attitudes and behaviour – it takes time, a lot of contemplation, self-discipline & self-discovery, and only you can most deeply and intimately take your own personal inventory. And as you reflect on the last six months or so about yourself, you will then realise that it is impossible for you to do your husband’s self-discovery work for him, only he can do that for himself in order to change his own attitudes and behaviour – and he can only be inspired or compelled to do that by facing the natural consequences of his actions.
It is a fine line, but it can be walked – your changed attitudes by following what is morally or lawfully right is the right thing to do for YOURSELF, and the right example to set for your children, and also your husband. In doing so it may inspire or compel him to follow your path toward truth and trust, while feeling safe and loved, but not shielding him from the natural consequences of his unacceptable behaviour.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD.
Hi MR,
Thank you for your kind words – you are truly an inspiration to me. When I recall that a matter of months ago you were very distressed about your husband’s abuse, his extremely high expectations, and him threatening to leave you many times, now you are taking a step back, not in fear, but more confidently looking objectively at the dynamics of your relationship and seeing things more clearly – and this can be difficult to do when emotionally involved.
You husband doesn’t seem to be threatening to leave you anymore?? If not, maybe he was all puff and smoke back then (just as mine was)?? Maybe you have successfully diffused that emotional blackmail. Maybe he is all puff and smoke when he is being tyrannical also?? I found this the hardest thing to judge when my husband was being critical or nit-picking of me – whether he had a cause for genuine complaint, or whether he was just throwing his weight around because he sees himself as the centre of the universe and the world (including me) has to revolve around him. All I know there is a lot of guilt, manipulation and smoke-screening involved, and the more assertive I become and the less I let my world revolve around him the more he respects me and backs off.
I am glad you found my “little imaginary practical joke” about the toilet rolls funny and now have a giggle every time you go to the washroom. Based on personal experience there is nothing like a laugh to relax the face muscles and restore some happy endorphins when faced with a husband who frequently tantrums over nothing really!
I am happy to say though that my husband finally agreed (after years of encouragement by me) to go and see our doctor about his insomnia, and to get something to help him sleep. After two weeks of Stillnox and less insomnia, including short periods of quality sleep he is so much better and almost like his old lovely self again.
Unfortunately he was only allowed to take it for two weeks at this stage, and the first night without it he was awake again for most of the night. Hopefully he will go back to see the Doctor again and attend a sleep clinic or something because he can now see how used to sleep deprivation he had become, that he didn’t know what it felt like to be “normal” anymore. He has realised how much better he is feeling, coping and behaving for even just a little more sleep each night for two weeks. He was really operating at a “dog-eat-dog” level before that – it was awful for both him and me.
Thought I would share the below quotations as they often sprang to my mind in times of constant criticism, they helped me keep perspective, and my inner peace and strength countless times over the years.
“Whoever is out of patience is out of possession of his soul.
Men must not turn into bees who kill themselves in stinging others.”
(Jonathan Swift)
“It is easy, terribly easy, to shake a man’s faith in himself.
To take advantage of that to break a man’s spirit, is devil’s work.”
(George Bernard Shaw – Candida)
CD, Australia.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all of the posts.
Kim has been working hard on building a new blog that will be focused on Kim’s articles and her writing.
This wordpress blog will remain as a discussion board, and we’ll still be contributing where we can. The new blog will however allow for more interaction if you choose to join via Google Friend Connect and Gmail.
Here is the link,
Narcissism Daily Mirror
Hope to see you all there,
Steve
Kim, I am not sure how to contact you via email and if that is possible. I see comments but not sure how it is that they are interacting with you.
I have read your material and I was involved with a man who had narcissistic tendencies but not your classic. More introverted than extroverted characteristics.
Question – I broke up with him due to an illness. I did not want to plague a troubled relationship. After I left, I realized more about him and how to love someone like him. I returned and told him about my illness but his ego and pride won’t allow him to understand enough to come back. He started dating someone weeks after we split up. He still cares for me and is torn over the hero in him wanting to be here to save me and the new gal. How do I win his heart back so he can see what I have learned and how we could be so much happier together. He is very hurt I called it off and can’t see past that enough to believe that it would be different now that I have had an enlightenment on life and us.
From CD’s posting
“I found this the hardest thing to judge when my husband was being critical or nit-picking of me – whether he had a cause for genuine complaint, or whether he was just throwing his weight around because he sees himself as the centre of the universe and the world (including me) has to revolve around him. All I know there is a lot of guilt, manipulation and smoke-screening involved, and the more assertive I become and the less I let my world revolve around him the more he respects me and backs off.”
It has been a rough day here interpersonally about just this issue. My husband came down after I had done breakfast and gotten 2 of the 3 out in the snow and was working on the third. He asked for his snowsuit (which I already had out) and went out to help/play with the boys who were shoveling. He started with many “correcting” comments at me, including my not getting pictures of the littlest one who by now wanted to come back in, and not getting up the water/snow off of the floor.
I then worked on getting things cleaned up a little and then on getting myself ready to go out in order to get the baby back out for some pictures. We started on the porch and then went to the front where the others were shoveling. My husband got upset that I was disrupting what he was doing (and trying to teach the boys – to finish a task they start – another indirect jab at me) I tried to help shovel, to help get the boys to finish, and he took this that I was trying to be the “man” etc. He kept trying to send me inside to do something or another, and I said (after making him a coffee that he never drank) that I just wanted to spend a little time playing in the snow with the boys.
Shortly thereafter the youngest needed to come back in, and I brought him in. My husband came in to start screaming at me that I had disrupted what he was doing, and I am always ruining when he is having a good time with the boys.
Things escalated off and on during the day … and I wish I could have disengaged better than I did. Finally it ended with his saying I was being a shrew etc and I said that he is the one who is constantly nit picking and criticizing. He said that wasn’t the definition of a shrew, it was just a yelling female. I looked it up and read him the first part of it which I took as supporting that it was criticizing, and he eventually got me tangled in the fact I did focus just on the first part of the definition that used the word person, and not the full definition that said a woman. My whole message got lost and undermined by the fact that after hours of pushing at me, I did manipulate by focusing on the “person” part of the definition, and he took this as validation that I am a liar and would even lie about what the definition said, and how can you ever work with a liar. Yes I did not give the whole definition, but that is so far off of where things started that it is secondary. I do not see that this is an example of how I always behave, or that I was also manipulating when I came out to join in the snow … allegedly purposely to disrupt what he was doing.
I loose touch with what it reality and what is reasonable. He tells me I am the one who is the cause of all the problems, that I am the one who is “mentally ill,” and that I have been the unreasonable, abusive manipulative person throughout our relationship. I don’t think so, but I start to doubt myself, because he will find the partial truths and flaws I do have. I know focusing on the blame and the cause is futile, but these discussions really throw me off. I then do not get to things I want, or get upset, get irrational, or don’t spend time with the boys.
I think the real issue is this power struggle over who is in charge, and I don’t want to be in charge, but I also don’t want to be put down and act like I am subservient. The arguement expanded to telling me that I should stop working, that I always do what I want and the only thing I do accomplish is working because that it all I care about – that I am trying to be the man of the house.
Sigh …
Hi MR,
I think you deserve a medal for your patience and certainly do not think that you are mentally ill or should be doubting yourself so badly!
You have already seen that you should probably have disengaged from this one sooner and I think you are right on the ball there, “Stop telling me what to do”, or “I am not discussing this with you, I am going to …” would perhaps have been better answers.
The thing that you might pick up from this episode however is that I think perhaps he is very self conscious of knowing how to play or be with your children? This coupled with your own qualifications in this area may be very hard for him to deal with and leave him feeling cornered with only his false pride to protect his very fragile ego which can’t admit that he does not feel natural being a father.
This may also explain the desperation, immaturity and blame he displayed at not knowing how to handle this type of situation. Steve was similar except because of his Mediterranean background he was less academic and more
intimidating and vocal in his insistence that I let him be the head of the family. He would even lord over the kitchen and until I learned the courage to firmly kick him out and tell him to stop telling me what to do, me cooking anything was very uncomfortable. When we were first married I was very proud of what a good cook I was, but eventually I just let him take over and would actually hide in my room a lot and only come out to protect the kids if he got too angry with them.
So yes I think you are right about the power struggle and in the end I believe you need to acknowledge this fully and also be ready to consciously take it on and win it. Your will needs to be stronger than his. Steve and I share responsibility now but that only came slowly after a year or two of him proving himself with solid achievements. When I wrested control off him (with the help of my support network) I made no bones about it. I would say “You lost your right to be in charge, you were dragging our family into the gutter!” or “When you were the cook we were all overweight, get out of my kitchen!” My eldest son denies it now but when he was 7 he would say “mum is the boss, because when mum is the boss everything is good.” He is now 13 so now of course he thinks he is the boss, but only this morning he told me I was the coolest mum in the world! I loved that but I also know it may have something to do with Christmas coming (Ha ha ha)!
I would say, somehow or other, you need to have back up and not be afraid to stand up for yourself and what you know, and put a firm stop to his insults and bullying; using both the bill of rights exercise and your support network. He needs to know that if he escalates the fight there will be consequences and outside officials/peers he will end up having to deal with.
That is my take on it anyway.
The other thing is that if I was you I would find a really great father/son parenting course and I would blatantly challenge him to join it. You can say “I dare you to to complete this program” or, “if you think you are the expert let’s see what you are really made of?” or even “Let’s see if you are too big a know-it-all to think that you might learn something from this?”
What is really strange is that Steve would even ask me to use reverse psychology on him. He would say “I like it and it works on me.” Isn’t that funny? Even now sometimes I will say “I bet you can’t …. ” and he will look at me and say “I know what you are up to” but he still can’t resist it. I had a really big revelation about this once on just how powerful this is when Steve had been behaving very tersely with us again for a few days and I was very confused why he was falling back into his bad old ways. We talked about it and he came out and admitted he was mad because he thought a challenge I had given him recently was too hard and it was really bothering him that he didn’t think he was going to be able to achieve it. I had even forgotten the challenge and we sorted it out pretty quick, but how is that for an example of how far he has come in taking what I challenge him seriously, from a man who used to leave us at home with no money and no car and without the phone even being connected at one stage!
OK so I hope this helps some Maria and that you and your family have a safe and wonderful Christmas. You can do this I just know it, you stand firm and proud of your strength and your knowledge and your courage. He will be head of your family only when he proves one day he is capable of humility and maturity!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
PS. You might also tell him that it is only lower class men who feel they need to dominate and control their families! While I say this slightly tongue-in-cheek and in the same sassy style as the reverse psychology challenges above, there is actually a lot of truth in this. The more a man has responsibility at work the more he will often long to be dominated at home and have someone else take the burden of making decisions from him, while the more dominated he is at work the more he will look to play the boss with his family. There are some interesting studies on this in fact about how the desire to be dominated is largely undiscussed but in fact is very common. Once you learn to do this with confidence my bet is that you will find he loves it (-:
Hi Rebeca,
I do not answer private emails any longer and you have to be very lucky to catch me here but I am trying to keep up a bit better with my new blog at http://kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com/ – the thing is that I really have to give the bulk of my time to writing articles and books that then are then available to help many people. I have also found that the more people work at putting our ideas into practice rather than asking for too much individual advice the faster things tend to get better.
As for the man you were dating, trust tends to be a very big issue with people with these symptoms and so you may have trouble with this one. I would state simply what you want but then make sure you stay grounded and focused on your own life and goals. This is best for you and will also make you attractive.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi MR,
I just had a stouche with my husband too at the beginning of this week where he caught me off-guard (I still don’t think I have completely restored my balance). He asked me to promise not to tell my daughter what he wanted to say to me. I said that if what he wanted to say was not something to be repeated then he should not be telling me in the first place and I would not promise anything when I did not know what the nature of the promise was.
Unable to restrain himself and despite my requests for him not to, he proceeded to tell me anyway. He set about criticizing and demeaning my daughter. (I have learned over the years that he criticizes my son or my daughter to me even without valid cause for criticism, because he knows it is a button that can still be pushed – and sometimes he just wants to pick a fight – he gets such a “buzz” or narcissistic supply out of fighting.) I said “stop right there – I don’t want to hear this, that I hurt when he criticizes or demeans my daughter – he then of course denied that he was doing that, and continued on relentlessly. Of course by now the strings were pulled, and I became his puppet – all of my attempts to “thwart” his criticisms of our daughter (and now me included) were met with his fierce verbal abuse, diversion and distortion. Consequently confusion for me set in as the original topic expanded into many topics – and as quickly as I was defending this one or that one he was off on another tangent.
After a lengthy heated exchange, and getting back to the original topic of criticizing my daughter and now me as well – I asked him apart from his mother – what other woman or women in his life does he truly respect?
I know he loved and respected his mother (may she rest in peace), but perhaps he subconsciously disrespected her also for “allowing” herself to be abused by his father, and perhaps because she may have not stepped in and shielded my husband and his sisters when they were children from their father’s verbal and psychological abuse. I believed he learned his father’s behaviour also and now sees himself as the “powerful head of the household” – that respect is extracted by inflicting “pain and fear” in us and others.
In answer to my question above my husband said “Well I respect you, and my daughter, my two nieces, and that is about all. I asked him why I had never heard him criticize or demean his two nieces where he would frequently do that to me and our daughter. His answer was: “Well that is different, you are my wife and she is my daughter and that is just the way it is, obviously I can say things to you and our daughter where I don’t have the right to do that to my nieces.”
He then asked me whether I thought he was wrong to do that – but already exhausted from the fight – mentally, physically, psychologically and emotionally – by now crying and in the foetal position, I was not willing to respond because it would only guarantee more arguing (right-fighting) that I would never win, and he had to win at all costs. I would have liked to reply that he is wrong to think that he can destroy me, or my daughter, or my son because he sees that he has a right to do so by perceived “ownership” of us, that we are his “possessions” or “objects” and that his behaviour is aggressive, narcissistic and highly misogynistic towards my daughter and myself.
Instead of replying, I said that I did not want to continue with this, and that I was going to go to the beach for half an hour to calm down. I expected that he would have gone off to bed, but he waited for me to get home wanting to know “what I had decided” ??? I briefly said that I hate all the secrets and lies he breeds in this family, and then I cut any further conversation off. He went to bed and I remained on the couch, angry, tearful and hating this terrible disorder called narcissism – where he also gets to dull or even forget the pain of it with alcohol.
I wonder if the parallel between your experience and my experience is that my husband is basically from the “cave-man” era where women and children should be seen and not heard. It is ingrained in my husband that he should be “head of the household” (and our business) and in control of everyone and everything. He does that by criticizing me, his son and his daughter, and everyone else. He is negative about everything except things he has achieved. He constantly plays the victim whilst he wreaks havoc in his family and the community.
It is interesting that your husband should call you a “shrew” – does he relate to the husband in “Taming of the Shrew”? In William Shakespeare’s play, Taming of The Shrew, Petruchio, who seems interested only in money and fine jewels, tempers the headstrong Katherina (the shrew) with various psychological torments until she becomes the obedient bride.
Petruchio marries Katherina for a large dowry, and he begins taming his new wife. He keeps her from sleeping by blowing a trumpet, invents reasons as to why she cannot eat, buys her beautiful clothes only to rip them apart with a bread knife. Eventually Katherina demonstrates her complete subordination to Petruchio agreeing that she would regard “the moon as the sun and the sun as the moon”. There is an element of misogyny in this play and Petruchio uses language to objectify Katherina – for example, where he claims her to be his “property” when he says:
I will be master of what is mine own.
She is my goods, my chattels, she is my house,
My household stuff, my field, my barn,
My horse, my ox, my ass, my anything.
Was Petruchio a narcissist – I think so! Is this is how our husbands objectify and treat us in a quest for our obedience and subservience while implying that this is how we will earn their love and respect? Only to be treated as disrespectfully as a doormat when we do so? Today’s woman is educated and usually with a career or a job on top of running a home (which is challenging enough on its own). I think the “cave-men” of today are threatened by the current era of multi-tasking super-women that they can’t resist but pick on their women for what hasn’t been done instead of showing their appreciation for what has been done, and chauvinistically excluding their women in what should be family or together time.
I strongly recommend that you have plenty of EXCLUSIVE fun time with your boys to help them grow into men who love, respect and understand women (in Oz we call them SNAG’s – Sensivitive New Age Guys) . I often wish I could record my conversations with my husband to see how we interact (with his permission of course) – to see myself more clearly instead of trying to recollect the transpiration of events and conversations – and how I could handle things better or detect patterns of behaviour.
I do hope you and your family and everyone who posts here have a happy and safe Christmas, and that we keep in touch – especially if the going gets rough.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Oops – spell check SNAG’s – Sensitive New Age Guys!
Cheers, CD
Hello Kim,
Thank you for your response. I find your material focused on those who are currently involved with a narcissist. That makes sense but there are those like myself who believe that a relationship is worth saving and or re-establishing if you find the key or tools to understand and better love your narcissist. Otherwise, one is no better than the classic narcissist who moves onto from one person to the other and never learning how to work hard with one person. Trust issues as you mentioned. I am unclear on what that entails as I am dealing with him now that he is outside the relationship. I am beside myself trying to understand how he could so angry and hurt that I called it off, (he does not say this but his actions say otherwise) yet I did it because I have cancer and now that he knows this, he feels bad and wants to be here for me but is with a new gal of a couple months and she will now allow it. I am having trouble finding any material that addresses the underling issues here. I have looked at your books and articles (those sent to me) and I don’t see anything that deals with his anger/hurt and love for me, yet his pride will not allow him to yield to me even in a time of serious cancer. What am I missing here to better understand him if/when he does come my way?
Hmmm that is tricky Rebeca as your situation is quite unique. I might suggest that you check out my site
http://www.therules.info
I hope that this helps and you take care (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Thank you again for your response. Question on the male narcissist and the hero role. It seems my (N) was attracted to me because I was strong and independent. His ex-wife of 17 years was totally dependent on him. He married her knowing this but complained towards the end that she would not work. She also did not bring much to the relationship such as interests, hobbies, goals, etc. I came with career, education – real go getter. He liked my energy, plus I am very passionate and extremely intense when it comes to romance. He seemed to really like this, however our relationship was very tumultuous and he could not stand the ups and downs. I handles far better than he did. When we would have fall outs it would just ruin his day at work and eat at him. I never saw this but he would tell me that. I on the other hand would know/believe things would be okay and be fine the next day. We were supposed to get married but as the issue drew nearer he started coming up with reasons why not to marry and they were all me. He stated he began to be unhappy with the relationship because – little things/stupid things; I was to picky about house cleaning, I did not cook enough; I was always watching my eight and it was hard to find places to eat with me; if bad things befallen me (car accident, layoff from work) I was always having drama in my life. His first marriage was smooth sailing for the most part. Few arguments, no drama except the loss of his mother (sudden) and his divorce. However, I got the impression that she did not say/do much since he had the final word and she was dependent on him. When they divorced she hated him and has not spoken to him in years except through emails and the courts told the ex to join support groups on abusive relationships, building your self-esteem etc. I did not think much of this and ignored it. I took it that she was just a weak person. Well as I spent time with this man I found that his picking at me and putting marriage off was putting me in a vulnerable state and the script was flipping between us. I started doubting myself and trying to work harder on the things he was pointing out. But he kept changing them and I began to think he is never going to marry me or real verbiage, I am never going to be what he wants. ARguments started and they were constant. He was very stubborn and we would go days without talking to each other and existing under the same roof. I would go about my evenings with friends and outings and he would stay home. He had no friends. Not one since I met him. He then started to tell me that he was unhappy because I did not treat him well. My self-esteem really started to take a hit and I began to believe that i was this mean person and this strong person that would normally reply to comments remotely close to telling me I don’t treat you well would likely be…”This is as good as it gets and if you don’t like it.” In the end, I had a number of bad luck events that happened to me, car accidents, loss of job, mirror fell on my head in store and injured me for years (not effecting my work but our personal life) and so he kept telling me he was tired of all the drama as if it were my fault and me. When I got cancer I just could not tell him. I feared he would throw in my face more drama and to hear that would kill me. I tried to tell him but panicked several times and just broke down one day and called it quits. Weeks later I tried to call him and tell him why I did what i did but he would not hear the truth. He was so angry and said, no you called it quits, I am holding you to it. See you later, I am moving on, I am glad you did this, I felt a weight lifted off my shoulders etc. I had never heard him talk to me like that. He was always passive and quiet and would stuff things. Never in our relationship had I heard him yell. So I took this hard and he never quite knew what was wrong with me. As I was away I realized my wrong doings and learned more about him from therapist we had gone to earlier (twice). By the way I was trying to work on fixing what was wrong with us prior and asked him to not give up and go to therapist with me but he reluctantly went. He would never say no or speak up but I took his reluctance as rejection and we cycled like that for awhile. So the therapist, two different psychologists told me that in our few sessions they both saw issues with him more so than me and he was a narcissist. He is also a cop and this is typical of a cop. I started to read and learn more about this through your website and others who told me about your website.
So now that i know more about him, I realize that he moved on a couple weeks after we broke up. He could never look back but i have written him to tell him what I learned, what I know of me and how I am sorry and asked for forgiveness as well as explained the status of my cancer. He replied with brief but cold email. I then sent a letter a month later telling him what was going on with me and being friendly. He called me and told me he had moved on and it seemed I was trying to get him back. His anger and resentment right now towards me is he thinks I am trying to get him back and this angers him. I am unclear how this plays into narcissism. If the ego is what needs attention and they want someone to adore them and “WANT” them then why offended by someone wanting to restore things. I told him I was seeking friendship as the letter stated. (I feel that we would need to start over and I want the time to befriend him and see things from a distance). I also told him all the wonderful things I liked about him and told him how appreciative I was of all the things he did for me and my family. It was a letter of ego stroking at best. He softened in our conversation and said he did not want to turn his back on me and he wanted to be there to support me but he did not know how the new gal would take it. He said he needed some time to figure things out. I had not had any contact with him other than these two letters but after talking to me, he realized that I was only seeking his friendship and he seemed to back down and be okay with this. The idea of me wanting him back would send him into a rage, why not sure but when he talked to me and heard how I was doing and I had no one to be here for me and spent Thanksgiving alone, he felt bad. He knew months ago I was sick but he chose to only hear what he wanted to hear in my letters and that was that I wanted him back and not that I maybe dying and I just want to tell you what i have learned, what I know, how I am sorry and if I had to do it over again… I find that he likes being the hero. Although he was now talking more like his old self and he was not taking the cold hard cop voice with me, he would interject every now and then with the cop voice saying but I cannot see you. I am not going to get sucked back in and seeing you is out of the question. I was not asking for anything other than an occasional hello hi email. He went back and forth as if agonizing on what to do. He did not want to turn his back on me but yet he wanted to be there for me, yet he has this new gal and he does not want to jeopardize it and yet he thinks she should understand since she has a terminally ill brother. He said give him some time and he would let me know… I read in Steves Blog that they are inmature. I have hard that a lot from my family since we broke up. My family has also told me including his daughter that he loved me dearly he is just hurt and angry I called it off and sick or not sick, he is not hearing that he is only hearing the selfish inmature voice of himself and his wounded ego. He is now dating a woman who is a high-powered attorney. One of the things he disliked with me (my strength from being single and independent my adult life) was when I would call the shots. He did not like the idea of me telling him what to do or he feeling he was not controlling things. So now my questions for what my guy was like and what I am learning through your blogs and books on narcissism but not sure about the following:
He called me a week later after our first conversation and told me that he talked to his new girlfriend and she does not like the idea of he talking to me and she does not want him to have contact with me. I said okay and was sorry to hear that, I thought she might understand. He said she feels there is alterior motive. (By the way she is a criminal defense attorney). He told me he did not believe that and he wanted to be there but he had to respect her wishes. He asked me to give it some time and maybe later on he could be friends with me. He wants to be friends with me but needs some time to secure things with her and…I did no believe for a second she will ever be okay with this and it seems he does not see the brevity of my illness. So questions on “N” men.
Do they tend to like to be the hero? Lacking empathy tends to be a trait but how does guilt play into this? This guy is driven lots of time with guilt and I am not sure if it is out of true affection or out of the ego just not wanting to look bad to others? Women like this attorney who are very strong and very straight forward and have not problem calling the shots and being in control…I thought this goes against the typical “N” man and what they like in a woman. I can’t believe he allowed her to tell him no but I suppose since it is affiliated with me and therefore a threat to “them” and not something she is picking on or about himself, he is overlooking it? Does any of this play into the role of a “N” man. I am guessing that he will contact me for one of two reasons. Guilt and wondering how I am doing, things start to go bad with the new gal. His daughter told me he loved me more than her mother of 17 years and his ego is wounded and he is very hurt and now jumping to someone else. His daughter also told me that he is selfish and does not know what he wants, is looking for that perfect partner and he will regret losing me, I was the best thing for him and the first person to get him outside of his box. She is only sixteen and we have been in contact since the split. HOwever, as of last conversation when he told me that the new gal does not want him to befriend me as I have asked, the new gal also wants me to not have contact with daughter since she is having trouble bonding with daughter. What here is playing out for narcissism?
hi everyone i am in desperate need of some help. I think i am seriously going insane. I have been following Kims books and
advice and it has helped me a great deal but recently every time there is a setback it pushes me back where I started from.
I loose my confidence and dont know what i am doing is the right thing. My husband who is an (N) has changed a bit. He is
able to control his anger better than before but the tantrums are still there and his N side comes to life now and then
although the span has increased. He has become a bit better its now me who is going crazy. My problem is weired. I cannot
look at my husband and speak to him noramally. I feel intimidated and scared of saying anything wrong so my lips tremble
and i go all wiered and it looks like i am lauging at him (i am actually nervous that i might say something that might
trigger him). the more serious the discussion is the more wiered i get and am unable to engage in the converstaion or
project the correct emotion.For example if he is talking to me about some problem at work instead of showing sympathy or felling for him i get wiered and looks like i am lauhging.(i do not intend to) This is destroying my relationship my husband. He feels that i am making fun of him at the
time when he is seriously talking to me about an isuue and needs all my support. He has started to feel what good is a
relationship when he cant even talk to his wife about something. He has been trying to ignore my behaviour so that i donot
get anxious may be this problem will go away. But then there are days when he looses his patience and the N comes alive and
i am back where I started. Is anyone able to relate to this or i have i seriouly gone crazy??.. Now he thinks that i am
trying to hurt him and get back at him for all that he has done to me in all these years ( i have been married to him for 3
yrs and in relationship for 5). I told him that i would like to see a psychologist because i am not able to control it but
he does not want me to go to a psychologist (he doesnt say why). I dont know how to fix this problem and now he has got all
the more reasons to blame me for this failing relationship. I am in tears even when i write this. I feel all my efforts are
wasted i have lost everything.. my life my husband and my sanity
Hi Rebeca,
I am sorry that I have very little time today but I will offer you a few tips;
The first is that although N men like to be in control this is out of fear and lack of trust
and in reality they long for someone strong enough to make them feel safe. Imagine a kid
who never had limits put on their tantrums. Yes they rage and rage but deep down they are
disappointed and terrified that there is no one strong enough or wise enough to “contain’ their
rages or bad behaviour and make them feel safe. Some say the only cure for a bully is a bigger
bully but that is only half true. The bully really wants proof that good is stronger than evil and
so they test everyone and feel disappointed when everyone fails. See a narcissist really wants a
worthy opponent. Someone who will see through their lies, stay calm and in control no matter
what they dish out and who will know how to put them in their place regardless of what they
try. Indeed they want someone stronger and tougher but that person certainly doesn’t not need
to be mean or cruel. It is the parent who is stronger and wiser than their bad side and able to
put limits on their bad behaviour which they never had that they still crave. I am older than Steve
and it seems very common also that someone with narcissistic tendencies will choose a partner
who is older than themselves.
The classic police drama where a tough no nonsense cop brings a rebellious (and truly bad) teenager
to the point of trusting him and by doing so turns his life around is the storyline these people crave.
This change never comes however without the policeman being tested beyond what most people could
endure.
If this man is a policeman are you really up to this? Especially if you are sick. The battle I had
to face with Steve was not easy and I had a lot a stake. If you are lonely and needing care at present
I doubt this man is a good choice for you right now. Even if you overcome his defenses and turn him around
he will be very vulnerable and as helpless as a child for quite sometime. This is why he is with who he is with now.
He actually craves and needs this woman’s strength. Whether he is redeemed by it or he manages to pull her
down only time will tell but you need to take care of yourself right now.
I know that you love him but I would suggest that for your heart and your health you look at our introductory
special on codependence. I believe this is your lesson in all of this and that by working on healing the part
of you that will put yourself at this man’s mercy, even in the weakened condition you are in, you may find
that you health problems resolve themselves too. You do not need him now – what you need is yourself.
To become your own best friend who knows what you need, what you are up to taking on and what is good for you.
I wish you a very Merry Christmas Rebeca and I am sorry I cannot give you advice on how to win him back, sometimes
however is is us facing and accepting that we have lost something and feeling the sorrow of this deeply that allows us
to move on.
You getting stronger and better at knowing how to take care of yourself will make you more attractive as well.
You will not convince this man that you can protect him or keep him safe (what he really wants) when you are
sick and needing care but still putting yourself in the line of fire from a high powered and possibly dangerous
woman who he has now committed himself to.
I hope you will give this some thought and take care,
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
I was very interested to read your response to MR. I hate being caught off-guard and I should have not allowed myself to get sucked in. I wish my first response was always to limit the abuse instead of getting sucked in – I guess I am like a lioness when I sense or understand that my son or daughter are being criticized or putdown either in person or behind their backs. Even though they are adults now I still have a strong maternal instinct to protect them from harm or being backstabbed by my husband. I have a personal bill of right that states this and that boundary was crossed. I understand that the only way this is going to change is to have an appropriate natural consequence or support from my support network for unacceptable behaviour and make him accountable.
It has been very difficult to find people I can make part of my support network because there doesn’t seem to be anyone that my husband outwardly respects – not even the law or authority figures.
However recently when I suspected he was playing one of his mind games, I said I would go and talk to our mutual friend and explain to her what is going on between us and with him and his depression so she and her husband would understand why we don’t come to visit regularly like we used to. My husband immediately (and revealing a tiny look of panic) said “Don’t you think it is too soon to take it that far?” I knew then that he WAS playing mind games and was trying to isolate not only me but the both of us from our friends. I responded that this has been going on at this level for more than 2 years now, that I was not prepared to let this continue anymore without seeking the support of our friends on this. Added to this I insisted that he see our doctor and get something to help him sleep.
There has been a big about face since then – he is behaving much more sociably and relaxed with our friends, and he has actually been good company and instigated our visits to them. I did not confide in our friends, but I will do so if this current acceptable behaviour turns out to be temporary manipulation. I guess that is why I got caught off-guard when this other curved ball was delivered unexpectedly to me.
The thread of my story above is that even though he behaves like he is answerable to no-one outwardly, maybe it is just his fragile ego – but hopefully he does inwardly have a conscience after all and if so he has unfortunately smoke screened it so well that I have found it extremely difficult to reveal the people he would least like knowing about his unacceptable behaviour. I am not afraid to build a support network and call on it, and I have talked to some people I have never talked to before about our problems, but I am afraid that I would not find the most effective people to stand up to his verbal aggressiveness and defiance, escalating the behind closed-doors unacceptable behaviour toward me (my fear), then I not knowing (my other fear) who better to seek support from apart from the law – and there is always the unacceptable behaviour by him that does not break the law especially his put-downs and criticisms.
I was surprised that my stance on telling our friends had so much power – but it remains to be seen if that is a temporary manipulation of me by him. I am wondering though why this stance had so much power because most people including our friends know what he is like anyway – maybe it was because I was going to talk to people about my situation where I don’t normally talk to them about it?? I haven’t wanted my friends to be put in the situation of potentially taking sides, but I would have taken the stance of being concerned for my husband and myself, and sought their understanding and support for the both of us.
Thank you to both you and Steve, both individually and together as a couple – you are both an incredible inspiration to me. I wish I could capture Steve’s sincerity, humility, empathy, love and compassion towards his wife and family – put it in a magic pill and make my husband swallow it! It is sad to see my husband locked in a world of doing it the “hard way” instead of trusting us – that we love him and want him to feel safe enough to trust us and love us back – that we are not the enemy and will never intentionally hurt or harm him. We all try to prove this so much in every way every day – but he continues to test our love and patience over and over – perhaps believing that one day it will be over and he was “right” all along – that he believes he is unlovable and no-one is to be trusted with his love.
CD, Australia.
Hello and thank you, great insight. Yes I have been looking at the codependence information. I really was confused and questioning whether he fit the profile for narcissism. He is quiet, low key and always in control. He does not portray the typical behaviors that most therapists speak of when DSM’ing a “N” and the blogs posted from a lot of your readers, describe behaviors that this man has never portrayed. He is always gentle, kind and never looses his cool, temper or tongue. HOWEVER, the strong woman you say he craves now, that was me when we met. When you said bring her down, I think that is what happened to me without seeing what was going on. Since we split up I have learned much, gained awareness of me and how I contributed to his cycle if you will and if I had just stood my ground as I did most of the time things would have been different. But I believed him when he started to critique me and began to think he was just afraid of marriage.
So if this man is meeting the criteria of a narcissistic man then as you say he is craving someone strong and tough. If this be the case then how did that fail with me? I was very strong and very tough, and kept strong boundaries. In the end I called it quits due to illness. Does he not see that as strength? If these men crave strong women then how does this play out when men meet women like this attorney? When a “N” meets a strong women like this and they are unaware of his “N” but as in this guy he is very low key, amiable, one dimensional, he seems like a really nice guy then how does the women become disenchanted with someone like that or is it he that becomes disenchanted with her?
Thank you for your concern of my health. Yes I am very strong and I take good care of me and yes I could deal with him, now that I understand his shortcomings. I was on the right track, but when it came to taking that next step, I did not get that he was challenging me, I took it as he was losing love for me as he began to test me. Had I known what I know now, I would have stayed on course.
So can you explain to me the lack of empathy and guilt. I hear you say they lack empathy – yes. That is true with this guy to a certain extent but he does hold high standard to looking like the good guy and guilt plays a lot on him. He does not say this but I know it to be true. With my health issues, does this not make him feel bad not being here when he wants to be here but not willing to rock the boat with the new gal? What is it with the “N” men that what i did could be so wounding and so hurtful that he is scared to death to come near me or have contact with me in fear that he will be “sucked” back into…what????
I may have mis-spoke when I told you win him back. What I meant was I would like to have the opportunity to be a friend to him and not be involved romantically while I get healthier and allow a more casual, caring, nurturing relationship to blossom, knowing what I know now. Well since my illness and my new awareness, I have had a 360 and short of a total personality change not only have I gained so much insight to him but life. My goals, my desires, my priorities, my temperment, attitude and my way of life have changed. My family can’t believe the changes but when you think you could die.. you either get it or you don’t. I got it and I have shared this with ex. He did not believe me at first but after talking to me couple weeks ago, he did and that is when he acknowledged that he still cares and he does want to be here to support me but… Yes, loving him would be hard and being with him would be a challenge and yes I could find so many more easier and better. But I was with him for four years and I was determined to figure it out. A little late but I did. I am just seeking to find an open door to allow a new beginning so I can see how my new understanding applies. My health is on the mends and the outlook is good which is why I am trying to understand how best to deal with him when and if he does contact me. He says he wants to be friends with me but again as said earlier not sure if this is just a line to get rid of me (I have never experience him not to say what he means, it is just getting to that point that is hard for him but when he does…it has never untruthful). He said down the line he would like to be friends but now sure how and what. This I took as he wants time with this new woman so she will help him forget his feelings for me. I could be wrong. Meanwhile, he was quite bothered when he told me that he does not want to turn his back on me but he has to respect new gals wishes. He was coming hard at me but I understand he was feeling pressure. Your experience, how does this type of guilt or concern or thought of me (if any) play out in not looking back or making contact with me and if when this progresses, tips on how to handle the attitude I will likely get when this happens. He tends to come off with the tough guy cop, how are you, good, brief and to the point. I know he does this so he can stay detached. Tips on how to handle these interactions when not involved in a relationship and don’t have the time or opportunity to melt his heart like your other readers? Also if you can touch base on earlier question of how does a woman like this attorney play out with a man like this. Thank you again for your thoughts on my health. I have a good family and good support group that is there for me and was there for him. Oh one other thing while thinking of feedback. How much does the partners family play into the needs of a “N”. He loved my family and they adored him. He has little contact with his own so he was pretty much adopted by mine. We would have family night and game night a lot. This was foreign to him He was raised by alcoholic parents (functioning alcoholic parents) and baby of 7 kids with strong catholic background. I know he misses my family as he tells my son but he won’t let that guard down for nothing. Look forward to hearing from you.
Hi CD,
I think that you and MR both might get a lot from the email I just wrote to Rebeca.
Verbal abuse is very tough to get outside help with and so in this case it is really important to be able to shut them down really quick when you see where it is going and be able to walk away and get on with it. Leaving them standing with their mouth open so to speak!!! Even if you have to use the trick of getting mad early (one of Steve Biddhulph’s) so it comes as a surprise and while you are still in control and can play act with it a bit. “I have work to do and don’t you ever speak about our daughter like that again to me!” and you walk off and get busy and refuse to engage further.
In reality they love this strength especially if you can do it while you are still 100% in control of yourself.
The problem is that their false pride has left so much that they still don’t know about how to be with people. Steve is even still learning how to be with the kids without the gruff I’m the boss exterior. Because he feels safe with me now however I can actually step in and say “You are not listening Steve and it is you who is being angry (when he is telling off one of the kids for being angry) and he just melts and becomes one of the kids and let’s me take charge. That really surprised the kids when it first happened because before of course that would have made him very angry. So even though he still even now finds it hard to show them his soft side they know everything is OK and that really he loves them.
It is interesting too about your husband being nervous about you talking to your friends and this does not surprise me. You see this is their game to bad mouth people behind their backs and this is why they have to keep everyone separate.
It may be best that you did not actually go through with talking to them (for your own privacy and self respect) but I would make him aware there is always the possibility. If you can arrange it so that sometimes he sees you talking with other people but he doesn’t know what is being said will really unnerve him too. This is not to be done in a cruel way, because the way I see it their false pride comes unstuck eventually anyway so in a way you are manouvering this so that it happens when you are ready to catch them.
You have probably heard it before but the person in my support network who had the most sway with Steve was someone I introduced him to and in the end I never had to talk to him anyway. When I asked Steve if I would really need to talk to this man (who was an ex minister) about my concerns about his pornography addiction Steve nearly fainted. Before this he could pretend it wasn’t a problem and that I shouldn’t be worried about it, but when he was confronted with the prospect of this information being put to this man who really believed in him, suddenly he saw how ashamed of his behavior he really was and how far he had severed his fantasy world from the reality he was projecting to others.
I let him off the hook then and I said OK I won’t mention it and don’t worry I am going to take care of you and I won’t ever leave you, but all of the BS has to stop and I want you to let me put security software on your computer. You know I will never forget the look on Steve face then, it went from terror to defeat to complete gratitude and dependence in only a few moments. He was then like a little kid that just wants to be close to mum and go home once the big scary night of being lost in the woods is over!
So now I am working on better role models of fathers as friends for Steve and this is helping him learn how to drop his guard more with the kids and of course still tackling my own codependence but I am really starting to get better. It is quite amazing to me now to watch and notice other peoples anxiety and nerves and see people putting themselves through inner hell like I used to and having to pinch myself and say “Wow look how calm and grounded I am!” See before I was lacking in empathy too because I was so nervous and anxious myself I hardly ever noticed it in anyone else!
OK I gotta run but I hope this helps!
Hang in there!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Thanks for taking the time Kim, I appreciate it so much – Christmas is never an easy time in our household.
Your advice helps greatly as always! I am glad you think it better not to involve our friends – I don’t want to risk losing them either as they are lovely well-balanced and caring people and I treasure them. I haven’t involved them in the past out of respect for them. But I will stage something as you suggest – my husband does not like not knowing everything that is going on at all times – you can see him behaving nervously and anxiously if he senses he is not privvy to everything that is going on because his “House of Cards” requires knowing everything to be able to hold it together.
Your pointing out recently his jealousy and envy issues has helped me understand so many dynamics in our relationship.
Thanks once again & take care.
CD, Australia.
Okay Kim and Steve, I think I am getting it now.
AFter reading your postings and your emails, I think I am finally getting the hang of what you are saying when it comes to handling someone like this. When he called me a couple weeks ago after receiving my letter he called to tell me to stop writing he had moved on and he was in a new relationship. I said okay. He barked a couple more orders and I said okay. I thought that was the end of the call and then he said to me is that it? I replied by saying yes, unless you have something else you would like to ask me. I heard what you said and I am going to respect your wishes. I told him that we still had a number of furniture items and things to exchange but we could do this later if he thought best. He said okay. I thanked him for calling and then he stopped me and said I wanted to ask you some questions about your letter. It seems the tone of these letters is you trying to get me back. I said, not that was not the case. He started to pick the letters apart and I answered him based on his questions. He then paused and told me that he was surprised at how I was talking to him. I asked him what did he mean and he told me that he expected me to be upset and crying or desperate to get him back. I told him no, the letters were to express this….and to let him know that I was grateful for all that he was and if we were not to speak again….he then went on a rant again about how it seemed I was trying to get him back. I responded in a parental tone if you will that this is what I meant. He never once addressed my cancer as if it did not exist. I called him on it and said, do you realize I have been diagnosed with cancer. I talked about it throughout most of the letter and it seems you did not understand the purpose or intent of the letter. WE then talked and he then softened and started to tell me how we had a lot of time together and he wanted to be there to support me etc.
Is this what you are referring to when you say how my change in demeanor, strength and just addressing him as if unemotional is what threw him for a loop and he was surprised by it?
Second incidence – since you emailed me he called me upset because a couple weeks ago he asked if I could not contact his daughter or let some time go by since she seems to be “confused” and his girlfriend is having trouble bonding with his daughter. As if that one is hard to figure out. I said okay I would do that. Well he did not tell his daughter this (of course he avoid all conflict when possible) and she text me a couple times. I did not respond first time but second time I thought to myself, that I have known this girl for four years and we have been close so I thought it right to contact her and let her know that I thought it best we put some time/space between us while his new girlfriend is getting use to the dynamics of the three of them etc. I left a message on her phone (texting rude) when I knew she would not be able to answer it. She responded by saying okay but she missed me. I get a call recently by him and he has that cop attitude. I heard you contacted my daughter. (apparently he asked her if she had talked to me and she answered nievely not knowing what he was doing) and he started to scold me as if “I thought I told you not to call her and now I hear you called her and you went against what I told you to do.” He then went on to tell me that I had asked for his friendship and now he is beginning to think twice and if I keep pushing this then he is not going to be able to be my friend and if I push this am going to lose out. I did not say anything I let him talk. When he was done he literally had to ask if I were there. I said yes and he said well.. I said I was listening to what he was saying. (Usually I would be on top of this type of talk and him). In a calm voice and controlled manner I apologized if it seemed that I was going against him or undermining his wishes. I told him that I could see how this would look given our last conversation and that it is apparent his new girlfriend is concerned about my having contact with his daughter. I told him that I had made one last phone call to explain things to his daughter and …he cut in and told me “that was my place to do that.” I agree with him it was his place and I had hoped he would have talked to her earlier in the week but in recent days she texted me and I explained the situation. I told him that I felt it only right to call her and personally explain….
He backed down a bit in how he addressed me but his tone stayed firm. He told me that he was in a pinch and he did not need my name coming up and he wanted to be friends with me but he needed some time to let things simmer down for him and…but if I pushed this… I responded by telling him although I understand you are in a squeeze here, but I ask that you try to put yourself in my situation and consider that I have not only lost my health but you and your daughter all in a month and for the last four years you and your daughter have been my life (so to speak). The least I could do was return her call and leave her a personal message. I continued by saying that as much as I would like to have your friendship and as much as I value having you in my life, I do not deserve to be talked to in that tone. I told him that in the future if he chooses to call me I expect him to address me more respectfully. He was speechless. He did not know what to say as I was once again acting different than my norm with him. He said okay real tough. i told him that it was nice to hear from him again in spite of the purpose of his calling and I told him that I wished him well and lots of love in his new relationship. Again he was speechless and paused quite a bit and responded by saying.. give me some time and..I said that is fine, don’t worry about it, do what you need to do,l thanked him for calling and hung up.
Now is this what you are talking about when you say changing the roles and not allowing him to get a “rise” out of me and yet being firm in what it is that I expect and not buying into his emotional antics?
One other question: My family is beside themselves. They cannot believe that he is abandoning me as they call it when I am sick and though he is dating someone else they find what he is doing cruel and just can’t believe this is who he is. They would never have thought that he would not be here as a friend. Narcissism is not something easily explained. However, I have questioned whether his lack of being her right now is narcissism and selfish maturity that is keeping him from looking at my situation and the brevity of my health issues, or is he just one cold callous person who never cared at all and does not have any regard for my life now that he is not part of it? I find this hard to believe but this is the way my family and friends are seeing it and I am trying to find some insight to what i want to believe and what you know to believe if this man se following patterns and trends of narcissist.
It seems all of this is beginning to make sense but i have a feeling that i am going to hear from him again and I need some guidance on whether I am handling conversations correctly. Thank You
Hi S,
When I first started in a self-growth programme years ago which dealt with the narcissistic behaviour associated with my husband’s addiction to alcohol and my co-dependence, I was an emotional, mental and spiritual wreck. I had lost who I was, my core values and beliefs. Going to Al-Anon was like pouring oil on troubled waters for me – there was a lot to learn & let go of, self-discovery and recovery work to be done and many challenges to be faced within my relationship with my formidable husband.
It was overwhelming for me at first, and I can remember my mind being out of sync with my body language – many times my body, lips and speech trembled in fear and perhaps with an element of excitement that finally I could stand up for what is right knowing that right was on my side. This uncontrollable trembling happened whenever I stood up for myself or my rights and sometimes just in general conversation too. I had been a long time oppressed and my self-esteem was extremely low.
It was very difficult to stand up for myself when faced with a stern faced eye-contacting husband who would see me trembling in fear, and my face contorting with all sorts of uncontrollable expressions. Nevertheless as time went by I slowly and gradually grew stronger and stronger day by day until eventually I not only had greatly restored my core values and beliefs, but also my self-esteem and this problem subsided little by little.
I have been following Kim and Steve’s programme for 10 months now and have learned so much more, especially very good lessons on how to limit abuse and to be assertive – skills that I am still trying to master.
Don’t worry too much – just believe in yourself and that things will get better for you after a while – just work on you and put yourself first for now. Sarah Chamber’s audios are amazing to help you relax your nerves and anxiety and to gain inner strength and peace – my favourite is The Phoenix. Prayer and meditation are also extremely valuable for healing and regaining control over yourself and your life.
CD, Australia.
Hi CD,
Thanks so much for replying to my post.Cant tell you how relieved i feel after reading your reply.I have been very depressed lately. Reading your reply has once again made me believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel and i have not gone crazy.Just a few days back i was quiet nervous about an issue – i had got a good christmas gift from work and i was worried that my husband would get upset and feel that i am showing it off.(if i told this to someonelse they would think that this isnt even an issue to worry about. But here i guess we all know how even a smallest thing can trigger a N) and when talking him later because of my fear i lost all control and got a bit shaky any expressions and lips where totally uncontrollable. This set him off and he started throwing and breaking things blaming me that i was lauging at him and making fun off him cause i feel that i am better than him (honestly there was no such thing going on in my mind) i was just nervous and it all ended up the way i was trying to avoid — a few broken glasses , mugs and his own laptop and my confidence gone back to zero. I was trembling for a long time after this incident but i made sure he did not see that.He came back to me once he had cooled down and said he understood why i was behaving like that . But i honestly dont know if he truly understands the stress i feel around him sometimes. This cyclye is going on and on.. I have been listening to Kim’s audios on Codependence and selfesteem and also the one for anxiety. They have been very helpfull but its just episodes like these.. seeing that rage..the anger in his eyes that stare pushes me back a million miles . How did you handle this cD? Did you avoid conversations with him? Did your husband notice that you were not able to look at him and speak normally? i dont know at this stage if i should be avoiding him or continue talking to him?
Hi Suhela,
Do you have “Back from the Looking Glass?” It is vital that you start putting together a support network and get help protecting yourself from this type of behaviour as soon as you possibly can. You cannot deal with this alone.
Kim
Hi Kim,
Yes i have been reading your books and following them. Thanks to you!! dont know what i would have done without them. Building a support newtwork is very hard for me as I have been only a few years in this country and am from a fairly conservative background. We do not have any close friends here and and any that we do are are through my husband. I cannot talk to them as they are all men and i am not very frank with them (so i dont know if any one will believe or help in any way) and cannot contact any one personally as my husband does not approve of me being friendly with any male (no matter what age and also there is no one that he looks up to).I never tried to make even many female friends before as i was trying to prove my love for him (he always said that if you really love me you shouldnt need anyone else , you should be able to live with me even in a jungle) . I was young and foolish then and had no idea about narcissism. All my family is overseas. I have made a couple of friends now and am trying my best to build up a network but it is extreamly hard as he needs to know everything that i do and gets very insecure as soon as he starts to feels that i am getting a bit independant. He now knows that he has issues and has taken some steps like not calling names and demeaning me as much as before (or may be i should say that what i have learned from your book is doing the trick) But there is still a long way to go. He says he really wants to fix things between us and has also been listening to the npd audio.And one thing i must say Kim.. your magic sicssors really do the magic.. I am going overseas in a couple of days alone to see my parents (dont know how this got his approval.. i am still shocked!! this is the first time i will be away from him in last five years since we have been together) I wonder if i should say anything to my parents? I never did all this while as they are so far away and did not want to worry them. And if i do tell them should i tell my husband that they know?? i feel if i do that he may get angry and try to cut my ties with them or say that he is trying to make an effort and i m ruining it for him
S
Hi S,
Before I found my way into Al-Anon, there were some times when my husband would come home from work under the influence of alcohol and my son, daughter and I would all be in fear of saying or doing the “wrong” thing to set him off in a rage of abuse. There were many occasions where he was physically intimidating and although he never hit the kids or me, we lived in fear that he might. On one night he punched his fist through a door as he was raging at us – the children ran upstairs to my daughter’s room and they huddled together in fear, and hid from him while I weathered through the verbal violence and physical intimidation figuring that while he was concentrating on me his attention would be diverted from the children – this is the only way I felt I could protect them – knowing what I know now I could have – with ample justification – rung the police. I was on the misunderstanding in those days that he had to actually hit me to justify calling the police.
After I found my way into Al-Anon I learned so much about the behaviour behind alcoholism – but that behaviour was never identified as “narcissism” through the Al-Anon program and we had to find our own solutions to our own difficulties within ourselves and with our partners.
With the loving support of the beautiful people that were in my local support group, some who had suffered much more than my children and me – I gradually found an inner strength and peace that gave me the courage to love myself again and to stand up for myself.
There is a saying that “A journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step”. I had to take baby steps for a long time and initially my husband did not trust the changes he was seeing in me – but he did not know that I was going to Al-Anon for about 2 years. What I did learn was that I could not change him, that I could only change myself and establish boundaries, and that he may change himself for the better in response to my personal recovery and growth.
It was the establishment and protection of my boundaries that I found most difficult BECAUSE we had to find solutions to our own difficulties. Nevertheless things did get better and my husband gradually felt safe with the changes in me as they happened. However alcoholism is a progressive and downward spiralling disease and this time last year was an absolute nightmare – we were at the threshold of parting ways and divorcing.
I definitely believe in a Higher Power – and I believe that is God – and He must have sent the lifeline to me, my husband and my marriage because while working in our home office about last February, a documentary came on television about a Narcissistic man who posed that he worked for the World Health Organisation. Many aspects of his narcissistic behaviour was frighteningly so familiar to me – I went immediately onto the internet – and among other websites, I discovered Kim and Steve’s information and their program which I felt offered REAL HELP. The core values, beliefs and messages of their program not only supported what I had already learned through Al-Anon, but Kim and Steve had definitive advice on how to handle the various levels of unacceptable behaviour. Different from the Al-Anon program where advice was never given, people desperately in search of help were not left to find their own solutions with Kim and Steve’s program – especially in what can sometimes be dire situations of emergency and threat to personal physical & mental safety. People are given clear instruction on how and where to get help and support in Kim & Steve’s “Back From The Looking Glass”.
If you do not have Kim and Steve’s “Back From The Looking Glass” please start right there – WITHOUT DELAY. You must get in-person help from people or authorities in your community – a support network that you will build yourself. You will get valuable help and support through this forum too, but you must get the in-person help as Kim describes in “Back From The Looking Glass” for the abuse and intimidation you are experiencing right now. You mention you work so you must have some financial independence where you can make this purchase without your husband’s knowledge, permission or approval if you fear him raging at you if he knew.
While you are studying Back From The Looking Glass and getting a support network together, try not to take your husband on confrontation wise just yet, try to remain calm, respectful and agreeable – to buy yourself some time to learn as much as you can about Kim and Steve’s program. You will know when you are feeling more confident and ready to stand your ground and you will use your support network as necessary instead of trying to fight this battle on your own – and this truly is a battle that is extremely difficult if not impossible to win on your own!
In answer to your questions, how did I handle the nervous trembling and twitches ? Instead of trying to control or fight them “I went with them” because I found the more I tried to hide them the worse it got, and they gradually went as I gained courage and feared less. When I felt it was safe enough to do so I spoke my personal truth quietly and clearly while respecting that he was entitled to his opinion, otherwise if I did not feel safe or composed enough to express myself, I said I felt confused (even if I wasn’t entirely confused) and did not know what to think or say at that moment in time.
I would suggest that you try to find a way to “exit” these times of confrontation – say you need to go for a walk for half an hour (self-soothe), or go to the toilet/bathroom or something like that. Time-out is is always a great way to regain your composure and think of what you can do to diffuse the situation (instead of resuming the confrontation) when you return – a routine, a chore that you would normally do, or some other activity that you can get on with. Return from your time-out like you have forgotten about the confrontation, and do whatever you have decided to do instead of continuing the power struggle with your husband. Use your magic scissors if he tries to get you back in there,and call your support network if necessary.
I am hoping that while I am away from tomorrow until New Year’s Day with my husband and my family that we will enjoy each other’s company, but if things go haywire I will try to remain calm, respectful and take all the time I need to self-soothe. I am also starting to think of what goals I would like to set myself for the coming year – mainly small achievable goals that will be good for me, and my health and well-being – because we had a saying in Al-Anon “What is good for me is good for everyone” (including my husband).
Good luck, stay safe and in touch,
CD, Australia.
PS: I can’t sing to save my life, but when home alone, I would put on my favourite CD’s and sing loudly and unabashedly – apart from enjoying myself it helped me relax and voluntarily control my facial muscles – and I also love music! Tina Turner is one who is great to sing along with to release many tensions! She is a also lady who suffered abuse within her marriage.
Hi CD and Kim,
Thank you so much for your replies. I have the book ‘back from the looking glass’. I had read the book but it had been a while since i had revisited it. I thought that i was on the right track but i read the book again this morning. And now i understand what you both are trying to tell me.Well i had stared off on the right track but somewhere down the line my C(codependant instincts have come to life again). I think this is why the circle never breaks. Just like the N comes alive in my husband, the C comes alive in me. I have to work on myself first, regain my confidence again and not get cornered by him.
CD – what you said is so true “What I did learn was that I could not change him, that I could only change myself and establish boundaries, and that he may change himself for the better in response to my personal recovery and growth.
“.And yes I will try to get some support as well.
Have a great christmas and New Year
cheers
S
Kim,
I have been married for 24 years and have told my husband that I want a divorce of Dec 23rd. I was looking up verbal abuse on Google when I came across your page two days later. When I read it I felt as if I was reading about my life. I am typing you now with tears. I have been in this relentless cycle of abuse that I want to stop. I have finally come to the conclusion that I deserve to be loved! I have been telling my husband for years that he doesn’t love, respect, or cherish me. He finally admitted that he doesn’t. If only I had come across your page sooner. The pain that could have been avoided. I am to the point that I am going to work on me, not him. I told him I am no longer going to attempt to make him happy, because no matter what I do I can’t seem to make that happen. I have realized I am obviously a C, no doubt! I went from a dad who was a N to marrying my husband who is a N. I am now 43 and have decided to make me a priority. Thank you for what you are doing to help others reclaim our lives.
Sarah
Hi All,
hope you had a nice Christmas/Holiday! I’m struggling, as I bet many of you are with the holiday season and the stress, anxiety, and frustration of managing the season, children and most difficult the Narcissistic behavior.
My husband just lost his job!!! ARGH! If you remember any of my earlier posts, I have been fearing this would happen for quite a while now because he hasn’t been working this “job”. He has been coming up with a million and one ideas about how to build his empire in real estate, real estate investing,etc.
I thought I’d be really pissed. Because I have been thoughtfully and cautiously reminding him that if he continues to use his work computer to do other business, and continues to blog about his other business,and continues to update his linked in profile with all this other work he’s been trying to do… he will probably be looked at seriously as not valuing the job he is being payed on.
Well it happened and I don’t feel as angry as I thought, I’m totally and completely afraid of what we are going to do now. We can’t keep up with our mortgage. We can’t keep our children in their schools. We have to seriusly face the facts and make some HUGE changes that he has never wanted to make.
He’s NEVER accepted my opinion or my suggestions as valid. He has ALKWAYS taken my position as one that is trying to keep him from his happiness and achieving his dreams. I can’t make any points to him that make any sense in our situation. I don’t know what I am going to do at this point because we can’t talk as partners and share the responsibility of the decisions. He has been in denial and so have I been numb to make the hard decisions that were inevitably coming and now HAVE!
I don’t know how to work through this with someone who wants nothing to do with sharing the decisions. It has been his bad decisions that have gotten us in this position, and my lack of strength and understanding to make change occur for our family and our children.
How do you defend boundaries that get crossed over and over? How do you allow accountability for a person that is void of it?
He won’t tell his parents that are spending the holidays with us (and have been since November!!!) He won’t let me tell anyone. He doesn’t want to ask for support, or “burdon anyone with his business.” he says. He needs support, He WON’T accept it from me. What should I do?
I have been fearing this for 2 years – losing the life I have known.
Thanks for listening, any feedback would be great!
Allison
Hi Allison,
I hope that others will respond to you as well, but briefly, sorry to hear about the bad news you have had over Christmas. The first thing I think you need to do is protect what money is yours! You need to get a very good financial advisor, a friend perhaps (?) and protect what assets you can and cut back on your expenses. Downsize and restructure!!! I think you need to also be very wise now. Obviously your husband has not liked his job for sometime if he has been pursuing other interests. I am guessing he needs guidance in a career change where his dissatisfaction with his past work is considered and also what he wants to do now. The gap work exercise might help here …. where he is now on the left hand side where he wants to be on the right and the steps in between. Is there any chance he can make what he is working on now viable? Maybe you need to reconsider and get a bit more interested and involved and see if you can help? Steve and his family treated me like I was crazy for many years while I was learning web design etc. and said I should just concentrate on the job I had which I hated and finally got sacked from before I took the leap of faith in self publishing my books, so perhaps I am biased, but Steve getting behind me even when I had to get a credit card just to live on for awhile while I set this business up was a huge turning point in trust for me in our relationship. That was how I really knew I could finally trust and count on him, because through that period he supported me and believed in me and helped me make it work even when I was scared. You also need to decide if you are going to tell his family (whether he likes it or not) and if you do, I would suggest that you do it in a way where you come from the point of view that you are concerned about him and concerned that he seems to be in denial. Do not try and get them to take sides etc. just say that you do not know what to do and that you are scared. If you want to have a go at supporting your husband in his new venture and his family would be against that however you may decide it best to not tell them at this point. If he is going to have any chance at making his own business work he will need the support and help of other people who are in business for themselves, people who are wage earners might mean well but their advice wont help.
You are going to need to be very strong and grounded now so please take time to take care of yourself and make sure you don’t let your fear drive you to drinking too much etc. and make sure you get enough sleep. Your family is counting on and needs you now and I bet you are up to the challenge! Have courage and hang in there!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Sarah,
I bet you found us at exactly the right time so please don’t worry. Your decision to work on you is the right one and is the only thing that will change things in the future with him anyway. I had a lifetime of living with narcissistic behavior (and even became very narcissistic as a teenager) so I can relate to where you are at, it is going to take patience, time and effort on your part but things can get better for YOU no matter what happens with him. Please let us know if you have any trouble purchasing our ebooks and you just take your time working through them. The special offers on our introductory sales page will help you a lot whether you do end up divorcing or not and are the most economical way to buy our material by far;
http://www.narcissismcured.com/special_offers.html
Life really can get better from here and I am glad that you found us …
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hello Everyone, I am asking for some input on a couple comments I made on December 21, 2009. One comment was as follow-up to kims advice on my health and my trying to understand whether I was really dealing with a narcissist. My buys behaviors have not mimicked a lot of what has been discussed with many of you. However, the reply I got from Kim noted that he was challenging me and thus why he has turned to the woman he has turned to. Meanwhile, I have been having some health issues but my strength and my support and my fervor is very strong when it comes to trying to deal with not only a man I love(ed) but someone who I know from second posting is not yet done coming in and out of my life. With that, these questions from previous postings that I could use some help with. The other woman is very strong and has been calling the shots as to his communication with me. I am a very strong woman, however, I did not understand or realize my N so to speak. I took his criticism and his subtle ways of not connecting with me as rejection. I could never put words on it but I always felt he just wasn’t into me the way I was to him and it seemed the more I pushed him to be upfront with me about how he felt about me, the more he came back at me with totally stupid reasons for not wanting to “move forward” with me. I began to reverse my strong role and started to try to please him. The more I did this the nor pushed me away.
Okay so we all know how that goes. So I call it quits, not knowing what I was dealing with, he moves onto new woman right away and she is of strong profession, etc. Please read earlier post if you can. Question. Why does he feel this need for strength when that is what I represented. Was my role reversal in the end trying to please him rather than standing my ground who/what i was willing to do and give up etc…a death for me in the relationship? If you have lost your boundaries and your strength (not realizing the game played on you) do you lose all credibility?This man is not your typical egotist N. He is humble, kind, loyal, honest and never leave kind of guy. He was married 17 years but never yells, profanity, drinks etc. He takes great pride (ego) in his higher standards of conduct and values/morals. If anything he is always cool, calm and in control at all times. When he does get angry it usually brings tears not rage. The flip, he horrible at nurturing relations, initiating/leading, one dimensional, lives in a box, very structured/routine, and likes to be the hero or think he is hero and is not one for competition, conflict or friends. He prefers women that are less fortunate than he (need caretaking) and he is BIG people pleaser. Does this sound like a N to any of you. If so, why pick a district attorney who makes more, has more and does not need him when that is how he operates. Is it just a rebound from me? i know my aggressive nature was very in your face, said a LOT of things that I am sure really wounded the man. HIs first wife rolled over and never said a word or raised her voice to him. I was a double barrel shotgun compared to his ex. How does this woman play out or factor into this scenario at all? Also, if you can read my last posting, you can see how I responded to him when he came at me gruff.
Am I getting a grip on this whole N behavior. Did I handle the conversation correctly and when he calls in the future, knowing he still cares and I just want to know how to better deal with him and trying to get a better assessment on whether this man is operating as a typic N and how best to deal with him next time.
Hello I am 30 yrs old my husband is 48 yrs old I have been married for 9years the verbal abuse have been going on the whole time it use to be physical at times. I use to be real close with friends and now i feel ackward and sad all the time.My relationship with family has suffered. I have no children. My husband makes up a lot of lies about his childhood and even who his parents are. He makes up alot of stuff to the point it makes me squimish. Please help me for I have been isolated he never takes me out all I do is work and come home to work again .
Hi Rebeca,
I do not have time right now to go through your past posts. I remember that you are trying to find a way back into his life when he and his new partner had both let you know that they were not comfortable with this? As I recall it was you who ended the relationship which had been troubled for sometime. As I see it rather than putting the focus on him you would be better were things now stand to start looking through and seeing what work may benefit you. If you look at our site at http://www.thelovesafetynet.com/The_Love_Boat_Cruise.html there is a whole series of free movies and transcripts that might help you get some ideas where your relationship skills may need work.
I am sorry that I can’t help you more but I think that if his present partner is not comfortable with him seeing you and he has agreed to this with her, there is not much you can or should do – I know that is probably not what you want to hear but sometimes accepting the pain of what we have lost helps us be able to see the silver lining and move on.
I feel for you and sorry there is not more I can offer to help.
Kim
HI Kim, thank you for your quick response. You are correct on all matters except a couple bits of information that has created confusion for me. I am not trying to find a way back into his life as much as trying to figure out how to deal with him knowing now that he is a narcissist when in the past I did not deal with him in this manner.
Our relationship was troubled, I became seriously ill, and I did not want to burden the relationship further. Besides in hind sight he was portraying a lot of N characteristics as therapists pointed out but unbeknownst to me at the time, I reacted to it, and took problem as me and when I got ill was just scared to bring one more issue of “me” to table. I called it quits. I explained reasoning for calling it quits but he was too hurt and angry to hear it and moved onto new girl.
He expresses anger of moving on and glad to be gone, hurt/angry words but yet calls me to befriend me (as I have asked) but confused with new gal. I told him take care of new gal, not to worry of me, if he can offer friendship etc. fine if not… He flips flops in mixed messages from that conversation to next conversation and this is the confusion on how best to handle him when he does make contact and whether I dealt with him properly during last conversation given your books, readings videos etc. that I have looked at and considering he has narcissistic tendencies. (Great videos by the way thank you for the emails!)
This a similar pattern as before but we are not together and I don’t want to continue old pattern given my new understanding. Hope I clarified things a bit.
Hi Rebeca,
Yes you have but I am still not sure what you want and where you see this going? If his current partner is not comfortable with you being friends then that is probably not going to work. What outcome do you want? I am glad that you liked our movies, the info in them is very up to date even if we are not actors!!!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
One useful suggestion that has been made is to journal – essentially to write down and document what has happened during difficult exchanges. I have found it helpful to calm down when upset, to stratagize about how to respond to things in the future, and just to ramble on with myself to figure out what is right and reasonable. At least sometimes it helps to calm and self soothe.
I’ve never had the nerve to implement this with an N, but a support site for parents with severely emotionally disturbed special needs children (who can be quite verbally abusive at times) recommended writing down word for word what is being said to you – in the moment with the other party watching … and asking for feedback and clarification as you go. It is useful because it gets your focus off of what is being said that is emotionally hurtful, and distracted by the act of transcribing the diatribe.
CD – Reading your last posting I was trying to figure out what I could say that would make things better … but I know that there isn’t an easy solution. However the 2 week time limit on sleep medication is not a rigid recommendation – especially for chronic insomnia. See if your PMD or another doctor will reconsider. There are many options. Alcoholism does not have to be a chronic downward spiral. If he can be willing perhaps helping your husband’s mood or anxiety can help turn the tide.
My thoughts are with everyone,
MR
Hi Dawn,
I answered your post yesterday sorry but the screen must have been closed before I submitted it sorry. It is hard sometimes working with the kids home on school holidays. Briefly I want to say thanks for writing to us and also let you know that you are in a lot of danger. I am afraid that things won’t get better without some very courageous action on your part. I strongly recommend that you look at special offer 1 on our introductory specials page here;
http://www.narcissismcured.com/special_offers.html
If you need help purchasing our products or don’t have a credit card then please go to our home page here;
http://www.narcissismcured.com
and at the top choose live customer support. Don’t let any reason stop you getting in touch with our help desk as they will help make sure you can access our material. They are wonderful people who we love having on our team. Whatever you decide to do I would suggest that you take as much time as you can (while staying safe) reading all that you can and listening to our online radio shows (or reading the transcripts) before you make a plan. I really feel for you Dawn, I was VERY isolated at one point in my relationship with Steve (we were on a farm in the middle of no-where) and that was a VERY bad time in my life. You must learn to overcome your embarrassment over the fights and abuse and still find the courage to reach out and stay connected with the outside world.
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner and please take care,
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
I appreciate your response, thank you. I hope your holiday season is going well…must be busy, busy, busy!
Hi Kim,
I need your help, tell me what to do please. What do you do when a child a 14 year old daughter has been the victim of the NPD tongue? She never really did like him but over the holidays he attacked her verbally and now she hates him!!What do I say to her if anything? He seems not to care because he has yet to say he was sorry, in fact we never even had Christmas with him but he made sure that his two daughters had a Christmas and it is New Years day!!! I feel that I will loose my daughter and her respect if I continue to have anything to do with this person. Please respond or if anyone else has any suggestions it would be helpful. Thank you.
hi Trisha. I was headed to bed but decided to pop on to read some posts.
I’d like to give some advice regarding your daughter. First of all, assure her that this man is the one with the problem, not her. Let him “own” his behavior and do with it as he chooses, but be sure your girl knows that whatever cruel things he said, it was out of his own voids and nothing she did to warrant that treatment. As far as what you should do from there, I’d be putting lots of spece between this man and her. She doesn’t deserve that.
The biggest concerns I have when I read this board, is the many women who are not married to these narcissists yet they stay with them. You didn’t mention in this post if this was someone you were married to or an ex or whatever, but if you aren’t, get your daughter as far away from him as possible.
Hi Trisha,
I agree with Laura’s advice and do want to make it clear that if you are dealing with abuse you really need to follow the steps in “Back from the Looking Glass” and “The Love Safety Net Workbook” and not just what is written here. The steps in these ebooks are about setting up a zero tolerance of abuse policy in your home (with teeth) for yourself and your children which hard as that can be really must be done.
And BTW Allison thanks I have been very busy with the kids, but I am around to help all that I can (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Laura
I am in a second marriage for 1.5 yrs to man who so far only verbally abuses us. It started with me and now has moved to my daughters. I talk with them openly about what happens when they hear him ranting or he rants at them, but I am still concerned about the effect this will have on them and their future relationships.It is serious. We have to protect our kids even if we cant protect ourselves. I wrote this in my journal the other day because this is my life ( please excuse the language but this is what I hear from a man who professes Christianity:
Verbal abuse from your spouse is like someone pointing a gun at you. You know they are going to hit you with a bullet but you don’t know where or when. You anticipate the pain of the bullet in different parts because you are not sure where the bullet will enter. It consumes you – thinking about the chance that they are going to shoot you sooner or later. You find yourself looking around the house to make sure you have things just so. God Forbid the sweeper should be left out or the foot rest on the lounge part of the sofas left up because that will bring you more snide comments. It is living with name calling and put downs. What are you today? A piss poor mother? A bitch? An asshole or are you just plain down right STUPID? Are you aware they think it is written across your forehead and will even tell you so?
The abuse is not only name calling…it is about asking them a direct question and they don’t bother to answer you or maybe they make a smart reply. Its about changing what they said originally the next time it comes up, they deny saying it or tell you that you were confused and you were too stupid to understand. They can leave the house and never tell you where they are going or when they will be home. They can tell you they have superior thinking and logical skills and you “obviously” are lacking in that dept. Its like standing on sand at the beach as the waves come in, it is constantly shifting and changing. Anything you agreed on a week ago changes in their hands.They ruin plans and take things away from you as “consequences”. Living like this is not healthy.
My daughters 15 and 18, are feeling unsafe in their own house.There has not really been any physical abuse to me but when he gets angry it appears almost demonic and uncontrollable.My biggest concern is for the effect this already has on them and will have on them. I feel like I brought a monster into my home.
I have read the love safety workbook and feel like maybe I need to take even more steps to protect my daughter’s emotional/psychological well being. We are living with verbal/emotional abuse as you are and many of you are.
I know I need to take new steps to change this situation.I dont know what they are yet but I will continue to make steps for safety.
Talk to your daughter. Get her counseling too.
good luck!
Hi all,
I’ve been quietly reading away and working away at bettering me over the last few months, but I’m so far from getting it right yet. These holidays haven’t gone well. His abuse escalated, I also lost my temper and my way.
I resigned from my job via email yesterday evening because I thought that 2010 should be different (we work together). Now, I can’t get out of bed. I am having rolling wave after wave of panic attacks. My daughters are downstairs just playing and watching TV for two days now.
I am scared and lost and honestly wish that I could end my life, I am so sad from all that has occurred. I have no way to pay my bills now and the ‘fight’ that I’ve always had – the fight to get out of bed and try and repair my life – is gone. I’m massively in debt from the depression I got with this situation last year. Everything’s gone haywire, even my washing machine has broken!
My girls need me, not a zombie. But when I try to force myself to do something with them, I just scare them. I try not to cry and be happy, but I can’t stop and they can see this weird clown’s mask on my face where I’m trying to smile.
I’m so scared. I thought resigning would be the right thing, to get out from the situation, from out of his control but now I wonder if I’ve just stepped back into a trap. If I can’t pay for my life, I’ll have to ask for help. He is the only one I know who CAN help and the bank won’t loan me money now!!! I’m having a house valuer visit this week to maybe put the house on the market because I don’t know what else to do! If I sell it though, I’ll even have trouble renting, my credit rating is so bad now.
Sorry everyone reading, I need help.
Thank you Laura for your advice. No I am not married to this person only dating him for three years, was engaged to him but he took my ring so many times and finally he threw it in the yard never to be found. I am keeping him away from my girl and have informed him that she is angry with me because he has yet to say he was sorry, hint, hint. He didn’t get the hint about the sorry part so I guess he isn’t and has no respect for my daughter or me for that matter. It hurts because of how he treats his own daughters, if I was to do the same thing to his jewels he would not even be talking to me he would be so mad at what I had done. I did tell him that because of the feelings we have, hers and mine we would have to have some healing and his response was to say “lets just move on”. To me that is the cowards way, maybe the easy way but if he had any feelings for me he would work it out and make it right somehow. After reading about the NPD person I see that they don’t operate like that, it would be too normal or right. I refuse to answer the phone when he calls like he did last night, 6 messages about how wild he thinks my daughter is. Well she is not, she is 14 not alloweded to date, go in cars or do much of anything. What makes him mad seems to be the fact that I allow male and female friends over to the house. I am always home and present so I really don’t see the problem he has with this. I feel that there is something else brewing here. Please commet to me, I need support so that I don’t start second guessing myself. Thank you so much!!!
Trisha
Hi Tracy,
I think you leaving your job is very wise under the circumstances. It is also normal for you to feel grief over that and fear about the future. You have so many skills that I am sure you will find a new job soon.
Once you accept that this part of your life is over and feel the sadness that all the ideas about what you hoped might be are not going to happen (at least in the way you thought they were) it will be easier to go on. Facing loss hurts but it also allows the silver lining to appear.
I don’t know what social services help is available in your area but please get in contact with people who can help you and don’t be proud. You do not have to solve all of your problems at
once. Your biggest priority now needs to be finding some energy to be courageous and strong for your kids and get out of bed and perhaps take them to the park. Getting out of the house will help. They don’t need all the answers from you just some time in nature and the reassurance of your smile.
Please Tracy, write here as much as you need to but Steve and my message is all about getting outside help. There will be agencies in your area who can help you please contact them today.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Tracy,
As I sit here crying my face off at my life in turmoil at the moment, your post came through. I feel for you, and I’m desperately worried about you and the children. Is there anyone you can call to chat with rigth now? Is there someone you can speak to that can help you take one step at a time and regain control over yourself? Can you reach out to a family member that might be able to offer you support. You sound like you are extremely in need of help. Your children need you. Take one thing at a time and stop beating yourself up. You might feel at the moment that not dealing with this would be better than going through it but you can do it. ONE step at a time. Is there anyone you can speak to?
Tracy,
I see Kim was on this immedately! There are people here who care about you and all support your health and well being. I agree you need to contact someone who can offer you a more professional way to deal with your issues at the moment.
I too have been in your position. Unable to get out of bed. Embarrassed and guilt ridden at the fact that I couldn’t seem to find the energy to care for the kids. It won’t last forever Tracy. You can do this, I believe in you. You are a mom!!! Right there you possess something unique and special – if you tap into that you will remember who you are and what you are capable of!
I hope you don’t find me trivializing your situation. I just know that you can do this. It is NEVER easy, but you can do it. I appreciate you sharing your feelings and reaching out. Please know you are loved, you are a valuable individual and you are worthy of happiness
Prayers & hugs to you!!!!
Hi Trish and Joyanne,
I will look at The Love Safety Net Workbook today and start seeing how I can make the advice in it clearer as it concerns me that you have read it and my message has not come across as it should have.
An apology from him is not going to change things.
If you look at the personal bill of rights exercise you will see what I suggest if you are going to have any contact with this man. In both of your situations you need to inform the police or child protection people in your area or else someone with authority over him such as the minister of the church he attends or his boss. Choosing the right person needs to be given some really serious thought. He chooses to speak with you and your children the way he does because he thinks he can get away with it. He doesn’t speak with his boss or the police etc. in that way so you see he does have control of it really. You need to put REAL limits in place with this ASAP.
If whoever you ask for help from says you should just ‘get away’ you also need to be prepared with an answer. If you are planning on leaving well then you need to say “Yes I am working on that but that also has the danger of making him even angrier and I so I still do really need your help. You need to tell them clearly that you want them to warn him of what the result will be of him continuing to threaten and intimidate you and your kids. This cannot be an empty threat and this is not you getting him in trouble it is you getting out of the way so that he can get the help he really needs. He has caused this and not you and he needs to face the consequences.
If you don’t want to leave you are going to need to be better prepared with answers or ready to look for someone else to help if the person you talk to tries to make it your fault. In this case it will help to get your language right.
I really hope that you have both read “Back from the Looking Glass” because this is what it is all about. You can’t stop this and leaving is not always going to protect you.
I charged Steve with assault and he was dragged through court 3 times before he started getting the point. I was also very clear with him that (in my case) I didn’t want our relationship over but that the abuse had to stop and as I didn’t know how to handle his behavior I was going to have to bring in outside help. I didn’t want to leave Steve and so it was very hard getting help as most people just wanted to blame me and tell me I should just leave him and if I didn’t it was my fault. In my case I felt they were wrong. I had 3 kids to Steve and even if we separated I was still going to have to see him because of the kids and I knew and feared that leaving was just going to weaken my position financially and in all sorts of ways and still leave us wide open to the abuse.
Steve did pull through and wake up to himself but only after he saw that I would throw him in jail as fast as I could blink if he threatened me again. Once I finally learned to get support from the community (with is what BFTLG is really about) Steve saw his game was up. I know this is hard and it is why I write about it.
What I don’t share often (but you will read on my blog and in my ebooks) is that I did not grow up with very good social skills and although undiagnosed am probably on the high functioning autism spectrum. When I am distressed I don’t flap my hands anymore but without embarrassing myself the fact that I used to I hope helps you get the point. I am sharing this because if I could learn to present myself better so that I got the help I needed I believe that you can too. It is not so much about skill in the end anyway but determination and the realization that you real do NEED and have a right to ask others to help you, especially if it is their job.
I will share a story that perhaps might help here and might end up on my other blog today as I have been a bit stuck this week wondering what to write …
My son had some glass in his foot last year that became infected and he only showed me the night before we were meant to leave on holidays. I took him to the hospital and after waiting for 6 hours (in casualty hell) and after hearing that he would probably not be seen for at least another 2 days I decided that I should go home and leave on our holiday as planned and take him to the country hospital (that wouldn’t be so busy) when we arrived. The whole journey I stayed by him and fed him vitamins and the right food as well applying other remedies taught to me by my mother and father who were both medical being a doctor and nurse.
When we got to our destination the hospital told us we needed a referal and we waited to see a doctor who then proceeded to verbally abuse me for my irresponsibility at proceeding with our holiday instead of waiting at the hospital the night before.
When we left and waited for Steve’s mum to pick us up and take us to the hospital my son said “Mum that man was so rude and horrible to you and what he said was so unfair, how did you manage to just sit there and listen to him and not get angry?” I then said to him “What would have been the point? He wasn’t there and he didn’t know what it was like in hospital waiting (they would not even allow my son to have any fluids even though he was not going to be seen for over a day) or that I do know how to take care of you while we wait to be seen.” I also said “Even though he was wrong to talk to me like that he actually thought he was doing the right thing. He was angry because he though I didn’t care about you. So what matters now is that you understand this …. we are going to have to wait again at another hospital now and who knows how many people we are going to have to talk to. Some of them might be angry and who knows, all we need to hold in our mind is ‘is this the person with the courage and skill to get the glass out?’
So that is how we got through the next day and in the end we met another three people until a young Chinese doctor finally was the one. When we got to the country hospital it was a woman doctor who helped us and as the infection had cleared up and he was doing so well she was actually going to send us home without taking it out! I knew this would be a big mistake as it was under the thick part of skin on his foot and possibly take years to come out on it own. I said “You know it drives me crazy because I grew up in a country medical practice with my family and I just wish I had a bit of local (anaesthetic) and a scalpel and I would get this bit of glass out myself!” I said this smiling and half joking but it did the trick and she said “Yeah come on and let’s get it out,” and then she organised the young Chinese doctor to do it. It was healed completely and he felt no pain in it after only a day.
I hope the point of my story is not too obscure here but in life just because people are in positions of authority does not mean that they possess skill valor or courage and when you need help with something like an infection and piece of glass in your child’s foot or an abusive family member you need help from someone with all three and your own skill, patience and wisdom to find them.
This is not a game! Life is dangerous and I hope that you will draw on your own courage and internal wisdom in finding and getting the help that you need in protecting yourself from these men. If they wake up to themselves eventually great but you cannot count on it and first things first you need to 100% make sure that you are safe.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Thank you Kim for making things more clear. What doesn’t help is that my computer had crashed and I lost the file with “Back From the Looking Glass” as well as the Love Safety Net. I do need them both. My question to you is that I will contact someone for a support group but I feel that the minister is not effective or the police. I do like the idea of the child protection agency. I feel that will impact him more because he has children of his own and Would not want to do anything to put that in danger. Is this a good idea or am I inviting an agency in that might just cause more problems than I already have? Do I tell him in advance or do I just do it and then tell him? I will do whatever I need to do to stop this bad behavior for myself and my child. Thank you again Kim, please let me know if you think this is sound option.
Trisha
Hi Tracy,
My heart goes out to you Tracy – and I would like to offer some words of support too. Although your current circumstances are not what you had hoped for, and even though you feel you have lost everything at the moment – you still have YOURSELF – and yes you are feeling devastated right now and you will grieve and cry and not feel very strong – but you ARE strong! So strong that you have grown into an emotionally intelligent woman all while you have devoted so much of your time, energy, inner strength and wisdom to someone you loved who is suffering, someone who constantly tested your love, tolerance and patience. It is now time to turn all of your strength back into yourself – for YOUR sake – and therefore for your daughters’ sake. Always remember that “When one door shuts another one opens”. You will be OK now – you have new found courage and wisdom from what you have learned through this program. Take control and charge of YOUR LIFE – your girls need and love you so much. Start by greeting them warmly and saying each of their names – remind them they are special and loved very much by you – tell them you are sad right now but you won’t be sad forever – children are naturally compassionate – and they will appreciate seeing your virtues shine through once more and they will learn from you – how to overcome sorrow and to find your inner peace once again.
The challenges you face now may not be as big as the ones you have just faced.
Write a short simple list of things to do at the start of each day – and DO each thing! Turn on the radio, listen to some music or talk back shows – don’t allow your mind to think about your situation 24/7. Reach out for help – there are many wonderful compassionate people in the world – and perhaps social support systems in your area or state. Would it be viable for you to short-term rent your home rather than selling it, and to look for emergency accommodation with relatives or friends until you find a job and get on your feet?
You can do it girl – you may need to force yourself out of bed each day, but it will get easier, and you will have a better chance of healing from your grief more quickly if you do so. This challenge has come your way for a reason and in facing that challenge you will find out what that reason is – the silver lining that will be your reward for bravely facing your current uncertain future. You can do it – you have endured so much – now it is time to different things, and be all that YOU can be – who knows what joy and fulfilment that will bring you!
Good luck, and write to us often and let us know how you are getting on, we are thinking of you.
CD, Australia.
Hi ,
On Kim and Steve’s website http://www.thelovesafetynet.com you will find access to purchase their e-books and audio products. Start with “Back From The Looking Glass” and then follow on to their Lovesafetynet workbooks. Also there is access to archived radio shows which I found extremely valuable – they are free and I recorded them to CD to play in my car while driving – effective use of travelling time and great company. On this website there is also the Love Boat Cruise – certainly worth the journey! Once you have worked through this much you will no doubt cast a lot more light on your situation.
Take heart also that there are several mental health professionals (either training or qualified) posting to this website who are in romantic relationships with a narcissist and who also question themselves as to why they were attracted to an N, even when they saw warning signs. Many, if not all, Narcissists can be very charismatic and know how to turn on the seductive charm, and there are also probably just as many women who understandably get hooked by the narcissistic charm and charisma. What closely follows though is the bullying, the entitlement and possibly addictive self-soothing. The woman then overlooks this negative behaviour when it occurs initially, and then she works very hard at trying to get her “happy”, charming, and charismatic lover back again – she may temporarily succeed, but the cycle is destined to repeat over and over like a merry-go-round (carousel) until the woman gets real help for herself and indirectly for her lover.
You are in the right place here, there is a lot to learn and do – and it is not easy when you are emotionally involved – but the greatest journey you will have is one of self-discovery and recovery.
I am currently studying “Disarming The Narcissist” by Wendy T Behary – her book is packed full of incredible information and offers real help also that compliments Kim and Steve’s Program.
Good Luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi MR,
Thank you for your posting and thoughts – sadly I think it is too late for my husband and I – we have perhaps said and done too much to each other to recover from events over Christmas. I had looked forward to our Christmas holiday with the family at our holiday cottage, but Christmas is never without a drama being created by my husband – he has never been one to enjoy the joy of Christmas – perhaps there is a history there that I don’t know about – perhaps it is the hot weather and heavier drinking episodes – perhaps he just can’t stand the sight of me, who knows?
My husband is not willing at all to give up his anaesthetic of alcohol – he is a very troubled man. The clinical psychologist who was seeing my husband said he is in extreme and stubborn denial that his drinking is causing him problems and claims that he does not have a drinking problem because he only drinks a “few” low alcohol beers each day. However he has admitted to a doctor that he drinks 12-18 x 375ml cans of beer per night – I used to count his drinks before Al-Anon days trying to establish & prove his addiction to alcohol – but that was pointless because he doesn’t do all of his drinking in front of me anyway, so there is no way I could tell how much he is drinking. I learned in Al-Anon it is not how much alcohol and how often – it is the behaviour associated with it – which I now know as narcissism.
I am currently reading Wendy T Behary’s “Disarming the Narcissist” and have found it extremely valuable to not only get inside the mind of the narcissist, but also to help me recognise what makes me tick from my childhood influences and how I can over-ride these schemas, and respond assertively as an adult to the various forms of abuse directed towards me by my husband.
Behary reveals how I can overcome my flight, fright and freeze (numb) reactions and stand up for myself as an adult, and much, much more. She also explains “the child” within the man (narcissist) that is behind “The Show Off” “The Bully” “The Entitled One” and “The Addictive Self-Soother”. I wish I had been able to finish reading this book before Christmas – I would perhaps have handled a very bad situation much better than I did. I have not seen “The Show Off” very much for a long time – ever since he has been suffering deep depression.
I believe he needs psychiatric help but he would never agree to that, according to him there is nothing wrong with him – it is just the rest of the world! He would rather anaesthetise his pain with alcohol and stay within his comfort zone, bullying everyone to keep them outside of his self-made fortress – extracting what he can from loved-ones and people-pleasers while stuck in a time-warp of self-absorption.
I don’t mean to sound scathing – quite the opposite – I only seek to understand why he behaves the way he does, and learn how to effectively relate to him – otherwise he retreats into a suit of armour whenever he experiences or senses vulnerability with me or others. He states he cannot get close to anyone – perhaps it is more accurate to say that “he chooses not to get close to anyone”.
Our relationship is extremely strained – I am exhausted and feeling ill-equipped to deal with his deep-seated resentful and self-pitying ways and his often-times distorted negative perspective about me and on life in general. I am seeing paranoia in him too now – maybe it was always there but I didn’t realise how paranoid he is. To him the world is a dangerous place and it is safer to stay at home, and strangers mean danger, and so on. This paranoia is at odds with his big strong image of no-one messes with him!
He refuses to go back and see the doctor to get more Stillnox – he would rather be a martyr to his insomnia – constantly complaining about it to me and to everyone who would listen – sometimes visibly enjoying the sympathy it attracts. I witness him getting at least 4 hours sleep per night but he tells others he gets 0-2 hours/night – maybe it just feels like that to him – he does not have sleep apnoea, and he claims he doesn’t dream. His brain is constantly ticking over about his business affairs, and he is hyperactive, hyper-vigilant, hyper-sensitive, extremely anxious, and angry at the world.
I saw a documentary recently where a lady had the part of her brain affected by a stroke that they recently believed is responsible for dreaming. She was deeply disturbed that she could not dream and felt that she had no concept of being asleep when she was asleep – she felt that must be what it is like being dead and she feared going to sleep. She was very happy when that part of her brain healed and she was able to dream again. I wonder if this is why my husband believes he does not sleep at all if he does not dream.
I don’t know if this latest crisis will blow over, and I don’t know if I even want it to – it is difficult living with someone who chooses to sulk and distort everything. Life is passing me by and I am exhausted, and I could waste the rest of my years hoping he will see the light and search out real help for himself.
Hope things are going better for you than they are for me now,
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Hi Trisha,
Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you, I have been very busy with my kids as it is school holidays here. I am also sorry to hear that your computer crashed, if you email us at info@narcissismsupport.com our help desk will refresh your purchase links.
The story I told before was to highlight the patience, courage and instincts needed when drawing in help and support. The trials and mistakes I made learning this is in my eyes the whole lesson now. In every exchange we sum up whether we are more or less powerful than the people around us whether we acknowledge this or not. An abusive relationship is a grave power imbalance and unless those of us who have suffered abuse learn to be able to call in help and earn the respect of those whose help we need better, our relationships long term are unlikely to change. Why won’t we let ourselves have power? Why do we let others make us internally quake?
In short I have had very good and very bad dealings with child protection agencies and you are right to be wary of what this move may “pull in” to your life. On the other hand if you believe you have the courage and strength to limit this man’s abusive behavior and make a go of a relationship with him you are going to need to become very grounded and sure of yourself and able to judge for yourself in real time if people can be trusted and if they are on your side and how best to win their support. I used to cry and rant and blame. Now I stand tall with my hands at my side or behind me and really gauge each response I get to what I have said. This is where I changed and not Steve.
The first question is if you really want a relationship with him or not? He is not the charming man he pretended he was once. He is a damaged soul who has given up on being treated fairly or life improving for him many years ago or he would not act the way that he does. Are you really strong enough to rescue him or are you risking drowning yourself? If you call in child protection when you do not have the resolve to also stand by him and be the very solid and brave parent he lacked that is able to set this boundary while also showing him love and compassion the result is unlikely to be good. If you think it will change him while you stay ambivilent and looking for someone to rescue you at the same time you will probably make him extremely angry as he will just see it as an attack and in this he will probably be right.
It is about what is at stake in your life and what you really want and why. If it is simply love and affection you are looking for be smart and swallow your pride and give him cause to let HIM dump you so he feels no more need to play games and it is done and you move on (this is the smart move because otherwise his pride will not let go and even if you dump him he will want to get back so he can return the blow). After this then work through our material and learn what this type of relationship is really teaching you and spend some time with your kids. Loneliness is not a good enough reason to take on re parenting this man.
On the other hand if you still want contact with him and he will be around your daughter the line needs to be drawn in stone and you need to become incredibly tough and incredibly warm and also very patient. He is a damaged and wounded man and no prize.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Kim,
Thank you, thank you!!! Your response to me was just right, not only your thoughts but in how you presented them to me, just the right amount of forwardness to get through to me. I am going to work and believe me I will be going over the options. I will let you know what I choose, either to stay or leave and even why for the others that read this. Your response was just right because I can see him in each situation doing just what you said would happen. Right now I don’t think I can be the warm and loving person he needs me to be. I am tired of the cycle and since we don’t share children or married it seems to me that leaving is a possible option. I do love him, but not all of him, and I love the good guy that he can be but is that enough? I don’t know that right now, I need to think on this and figure out if I am ready to do this. I wish I didn’t remember the good guy, it would be so easy to let go if he was always creepy. Again your strengh shows through to me in your words to me and I thank you for that.
Hi once again –
I posted my first post to the website back on Nov. 21 and am still processing/evaluating Kim’s excellent response, and trying to figure out how to complete her step-by-step suggestions. The holidays got in the way of everything and I’m just now getting back into a normal daily schedule.
Anyway, I had another quick question -
Is it normal behavior for an NPD to stalk their “target”? (In this case it would be my widowed next door neighbor being the “target”)
Thanks -
Wow this is my first time on a blog–funny how so many of the stories seem to share a bit of mine. The looking glass really lays things out there-not always pretty. I’m working in the workbooks, and really I would never have even thought “narcissism” had a counselor said it to me in a private session. My husband lost his job and he’s mad at his employer, so he drinks more and more and only talks about how badly he and fellow employees were treated. He spoke at a council meeting and took up for other employees–I was proud-he even managed to control himself fairly well. He has a lot of rage and deals with depression. I am now the target of his unhappiness and try as I may to be patient and understanding I am worn out with it. I did not even attempt to let him know how left out of his life I was feeling until he asked–that didn’t go well, he really didn’t want to hear me say I needed a bit of his time. I’d like to cook and converse and laugh a bit, find some happiness in the dire financial straights we have found ourselves in. I’ve dealt with infidelity even, but tonight just broke my heart, he screamed at me and told me I was the reason that he was depressed and drank, and if I loved him I should shut the @uc* up. Self soothing isn’t working at the moment:) I’ve seen the cycle and I knew it was coming, but I really am so tired of being the blame of everything. I’m even to blame for his past infidelity but I don’t bring it up, he did, he just dumped the last 10 years of our life on me in scream and spit! I walked away, but I hurt. How does everyone else deal with these episodes without really losing it? Help sought and appreciated. Kudos to Kim–you really did overcome a statistic, I still have trouble fathoming how you found the courage. I need to sort socks or seeds or something!
Hi Stephanie,
So strange! My husband went on a rant at me last night too. Same thing. ALl the things that I’ve done wrong, pointing out all the ways I’ve been responsible for us getting here. (He also got fired a couple days before Christmas). Making fun of me because I’m a “codependant” (a word which he’s only learned because I’ve admitted that WAS a path I was on for most of my life). Telling me no one held the gun to my head when we bought this house, I signed on the line. Telling me I have no dreams and no ambition and no fight in me…. Blah blah. And I sat and cried and felt bad and wondered for a minute why the F**k I have taken this beating for 10 years???? Then I remembered that I am fighting a fight, just not the same one he’s fighting.
Hope today goes better for you. I feel like I find success and scrape whatever happiness I can manage out of these situations when I step back and take one thing at a time. I often find myself trying to solve these problems with some equation that will work out neatly and precisely. The problem is that there is NO simple solution. I have spent the last several months trying to wrap my head around the fact that my life can’t be figured out in a simple formula. Reminding myself of that and stepping back to keep MY feelings and reactions/emotions in check helps me to realize that I can handle it. I HATE IT plenty, but that doesn’t take it away, it doesn’t make it easier to deal with and it doesn’t ever make me feel successful when trying to find happiness. When I can say those things to myself about all that I DO have and how I have managed to cope before because I am strong and smart I tend to be able to smile again.
I am in a similar situation as my husband has just been fired and we can no longer afford to keep our home. I have been very angry over the past couple weeks over this. He was not doing his job, and trying to build his own business during work hours and then some. I had asked him to consider the consequences and discussed this as a bad idea for over a year with him. Finally I gave up, put my head in the sand and basically quit. I quit on my family, I quit on myself, and I quit on him. I pretended that the state of denial I chose for myself was support for the new ideas he wanted to pursue. I pretended that It wouldn’t happen, I pretended that he’d find success in his new business, and we would be able to keep our life the same. I didn’t find work or look for a job even. I knew we were struggling financially to make ends meet, I knew that the pressure of starting something new was going to take a toll on him and our family, I decided to ignore ALL that I KNEW and pretend everything would be fine in the end. I am PISSED. So now I have to wake up, figure out what to do. I am angry with him, no doubt! But more so I am angry and sad that I wasn’t stronger, more powerful, and active rather than passive. I hate to admit it, but I am responsible for letting all of this fall down on me.
This makes me feel so frightened but at the same time extremely empowered. See we are super lucky. He has another job offer already, and we have family with a home for us to move into without worrying about rent. It took me a couple weeks to get over it and get back up, but I’m better now. I mean when I finally was able to think clearly it was evident to me that “god” couldn’t have made a cushion any softer for me and my children to fall on. Yes, we lose our home, yes we have to move, yes we have to go back to a lifestyle that is challenging and uncomfortable – but we HAVE a home to go to, we HAVE a job lined up, we HAVE family to support us. Many people don’t have any of that and they still need to plow through and figure it out. I am going to consider myself VERY lucky in this situation.
Now, I am considering moving on without him just due to the fact that I can’t seem to create that partnership that I really don’t want to live without. But I’ll tackle that later on down the road. He makes all the decisions, good and bad. And our family suffers the consequences. He refuses to let me in. He refuses to trust in me and know that I am here for the good of our family. The narcissism won’t let him accept that I love him and that I will love him “as is” rather than the standard of perfection that he strives for every day and continuously fails at miserably.
I can’t compete with that and I’ve become exhausted in the fight. But one day at a time here. I am feeling great at the decision to finally get out there and find a job. Even though I don’t want to work (since I have been putting it off for the past 5 years) I know it will give me the strength and control over my situation in which I have chosen to remain powerless in over the past several years. I will find much satisfaction in being able to care for my children financially as I never have before. I have never been independent in this life and if my lesson here is none other than to finally get up and take control over my life, I’ll take it!
I agree and OFTEN wonder how Kim and Steve pulled it together. Sometimes I feel like they were granted their miracle and that was for us all to find comfort and strength in getting to know ourselves and all that we are capable of. At the very least, but of the most importance I have grown more this year than I have in my entire life. This was probably my hardest year with him, but this was the year I grew self esteem, courage, and now independence and power. I feel better than I have about myself today through this work than I have all my life.
If I can’t salvage my marriage, at least I know I will be ok, I know my children will be ok, I know I did with no doubt all I could and that I am not a failure. I can’t battle the disease that has no cure for the rest of my life.
We all have our own journey maybe my husband’s doesn’t include this family, who knows. But I have come to accept that I can not change him, only me. And I’m working on being at peace with that.
Good Luck! Don’t let his negativity and verbal abuse cloud your judgement of yourself. You have all the power in the world to make your own happiness. He CAN NOT take that away from you. He can NOT control how you choose to feel about you. KNOW that you are one of the strongest people you know. Grab it from within. IT IS THERE for the taking
Stephanie,
I don’t know how much I can help, I am struggling along with all the others. I do know that they never take the blame for anything, it is always someone else who is to blame. I also am finding out that if they don’t get the adoration they “think” they deserve they will become increasingly unhappy and look elsewhere or think that the grass is greener on the other side. It is hard to give this person adoration and respect when so little is given back if any, and yes I know what you mean about the anger and spit. I have started to just hang up the phone or leave my own house if need be just so that I don’t hear the junk. I am lucky as I am not married to this person and we don’t live together. Maybe that is a plus or maybe it isn’t. Not living together makes it easier to take a break and then when the good cycle is present to go back but the bad one always is coming. Maybe if I lived with the man I would find the courage to just get out I don’t know. I will be looking for other comments and help myself. Good luck and the best to you.
Trisha
Hi Trisha,
Good luck!
Hope things are getting better for you and you are learning some positive strategies like the “magic scissors”. That helped me SO much in the beginning. It’s when I got past that initial stage of empowerment that I truly realized that the road ahead was quite long and painful. It became harder for me at that point. Because I wanted it better, and I wanted it to stay better… I didn’t expect to continue through the process with my newfound voice and my self esteem. Then I’d get upset all the time saying, “I don’t need this” I have the right to be treated like a person. But then I remember why I started the process in the first place. FOR ME!!!!! And that is what always gets me back on track, back to focus only on that which I can change, ME
Hi Allison,
That was so well said!!! Congratulations that you have found your inner strength and courage and although the workforce will certainly have more challenges for you, what you have learned this year will help you stay grounded and focused on your own goals no matter what anyone else dishes out. It will be wonderful for you too as you say to have the independence and sense of self determination that your new income will provide.
You know sometimes I don’t know how I did what I did either – I think maybe it was because I had no choice. There was no other house for us to move to and if there was I certainly would have chosen that option so don’t feel I am judging you when I say that. I just didn’t have anywhere left to run. I could see the next step down for us would be us living in a slum and I wasn’t going to let that happen. On the financial front it felt like climbing out of a hole with vertical walls with my bare hands and my family on my back. Finally after 3 years of that (even after Steve had got better and was helping me) the miracle came and an old school friend who is now very wealthy found me after searching for me for over 20 years! He is happily married and a practicing Christian so it was all above board (as far as romantic boundaries etc.) but he did offer me some financial support at a time when I don’t know how I otherwise would have been able to keep handling the pressure and the grind of it. So miracles do happen but I still had to do an enormous amount of the work.
On the bright side I bought a second hand car last week, my families first car in 4 years and the newest car I have every owned. It is nothing flash but to me it is amazing. Steve used to be so arrogant about the fact that we were carbon neutral because we walked or got public transport but with 3 kids at 2 different schools I don’t know if anyone who has always had a car can imagine how hard that was. The worst of it was that it meant I had such little time with the kids as they were always getting rides with other people or the bus. Yesterday I took my eldest son to registration for classes he is taking this year and we had such a wonderful talk. I can’t believe we have made it this far.
On the financial front I will give you a few pieces of advice I discovered climbing out of the hole …
1. It is easier to slide down than climb back up. I would say this to Steve all the time when he wanted to move to bad parts of town. Taking pressure off is fine but living in a slum is not a way to save money. it is easy to get there but very hard to get out. Much better to accept others charity or live in a house that is not the best in the street but still in a nice part of town.
2. Leave your ego out of your career; Find someone you want to help and figure out how you can help them. Don’t be proud / be smart.
3. Don’t eat food just because it is cheap; I used to borrow a friends car every week and take it to the wholesale fruit and vegetable markets where the shops buy their produce. In our city there is one hour a week that they let the general public in just to get rid of what the wholesalers have left over. I would fill up the car with whatever was cheap but also nutritious. I would also wash the car and give my friend who lent it to me a box of produce so that I showed I really appreciated her lending it to me. I would then have more than we could eat but stuff I could give to people to say thankyou, trade for things we needed or even on sell. We still do this in fact and this week I got about 10 kilograms of cherries (it is summer here now) for only $20. It was the first week I went in my car!!!
Eating lots of bread and noodles just because they are cheap and filing doesn’t benefit you in the long run. Better to buy cheap over ripe bananas and freeze them and make smoothies in the blender or better get a food processor that after they are frozen will make them into ice cream without adding anything else. We have one of those and the kids love it. There is always chopped up frozen bananas in the freezer and they can make it themselves whenever they want.
OK so hang in there girls and you know self soothing doesn’t mean you have to sit there and take it. Here are some of my favorite comeback lines (as I disengage) from the past …
“You are not better than us”
“you seem only determined to drag our lives into the gutter and I am not going there with you.”
“If you are not going to help me make a respectable life for us then leave me alone.”
“Stop insulting me and take responsibility for yourself”
“Look in the mirror.”
OK so some of these will certainly make the fight worse unless you DISENGAGE as you say them and walk away. One way that is very effective at helping do this is to put your hands up (finger tips pointing up) in front of you slightly out from your body for a moment as you walk away. You can BTW also do this without saying anything.
If you feel safe enough and in the space to do it you can also say something like …
“I am worried about you and I don’t know what to do? I hope that I am not going to have to talk to ………. (the person they would be most embarrassed knowing about this behavior and who has some authority over them (but not their family) about what you are saying and doing now. You are not yourself and this has got to stop.”
OK so great work Allison and you hang in there Stephanie and Trisha (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
PS. I am usually very careful not to be political here but I would really like to share this movie, simply because of the values it represents;
I don’t live in the US and so please don’t take this to mean more than it does and please note that political argument on this blog will not be approved.
“
Hi Jean,
I remember your situation and I say it would be normal as he had probably realized he had been leaching off you for too long.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Allison,
I have been reading this blog and have really identified w/ your posts in a huge way. I feel like you are writing my story for me, although, I am not nearly as far along w/ my codenpendence issues and feeling secure as you are. I have known for years that I was codependent and thought I had gotten past it…until, my narcissistic husband (who was grandiosely adored like yours) admitted to our whole marriage being a very compulsive gambler. The debt is insurmountable. He also used to go from job to job in search of the big moneymaking scheme. He would also work at his “real” job, you know, the secure, safe one because there was always something better that made more money so he could cover up the gambling debts. Now, as I said, the debt is insurmountable and we have nothing. Luckily, we still have our house and he still has a job..right now anyway. I’m only a few wks into this knowledge and a few wks in to trying to get myself to be independent, for once! I literally let him take care of me and make all the decisions after I had the 3 kids. I felt that this is what we agreed to..he would work and I would stay home w/ the kids! I held up my end and he did too, but instead of making wise choices w/ our money (he was a financial advisor!!), he gambled our money away. I’m just now and to this second trying to figure out our finances and trying to live w/ this man whom I do not trust. That being said, I have really loved reading all the posts on this blog. I really had no idea anyone else was in my same position. Anyway, thx to everyone for sharing. Allison, stay strong and just wanted you to know my husband is your husband’s long-lost brother or something!
HUGS,
Lynn
Allsion, I don’t know how you do what you do but I am so proud of you. It is hard to be beaten down verbally and then be strong, somehow it just doesn’t belong in the same sentence. I just got beaten down because I was told I was a bad mother to my 14 year old daughter. He feels that I let her do too many things, what I don’t know. She has hardly no social life, she is popular with both boys and girls and I have set limits on when she can date which is about 15 to 16, more leaning on 16 depending on how mature she is at that time. I don’t know where he is coming from but he did verbally tell my daughter what he thought of her and he really doesn’t know how to fix things with her except to tell me that he has some stuff to work on. I gave as good as I got because I told him that I know a certain mother who didn’t do too well with her own three kids, meaning his mother. I know it was a cheap shot but it sure felt good. I did go down to his level but I was hopiong to knock the wind out of his sails. No way, the only thing I can do is not answer the phone and take the answering machine off so he cannot have anything more to say, he likes having the last say and I am taking that away from him tonight. I know I am going on and on so I will quit. Please pray for me as I need a lot of help. I am safe though and so is my daughter that is all that matters. We survive no thanks to any efforts on his part so I don’t need this stuff. Trisha
Hi All,
Since this blog has become the place where people write when things aren’t going so well at home, I thought it would be time to share a bit of positivity.
I am pretty much full time on the help desk these days. The help desk is where we receive all of the positive testimonials from our work. So I will share a few that have come in recently…..
Dear Kim & Steve
Before this year has gone, I wish to thank you both most sincerely for
helping me save my marriage. At the beginning of this year, all seemed
hopeless and my husband and I had separated under very unpleasant
circumstances. Totally distressed and unable to make sense of my husband’s
behaviour, I stumbled upon your website ‘by accident’. This, as well as your
wonderful emails and podcasts helped me to gradually understand what had
been going on in my marriage. Nine months later, my husband and I are back
together (and have been since May). We are both very happy and respect has
become a vital part of our relationship. It has taken time and great
patience to rebuild trust, but our friendship is stronger than ever and for
the first time I feel he respects me for who I am. Every day is a blessing,
even though there is still work to be done.
We would not be together today if it were not for your wonderful website and
positive message. I am sure many people have already said this, but please
never doubt the good you both do.
God bless you and yours this Christmas!
EK
*****************************************************************************
Hi Kim and Steve,
It has been on my mind for awhile, just to write to tell you how very grateful I am for your support. The work that you are doing is defiantly paving a path. The day that I assimilated Narcissim with my husband was a mix of emotions both very painful, but at the same time liberating in the sense, that now I had some sort of explanation for his behaviour, and I now knew what I was dealing with, instead of the constant confusion. On so many occasions during paritcularly challenging periods, I find myself thinking that I just don’t have the skills to deal with this behaviour, and there in my email is another peice of wonderful advice that has either provided clarity, answered my questions or validated that I am actually doing ok… On so many levels your insights and research are so valuable and I understand the absolute dedication that you are putting into this work that is helping so many people. I am certain that one day you guys will
be well recognised for your achievments.
warm regards and blessings to you and your family for the New Year,
C
*********************************************************************
Hi Steve and Kim,
Thank you sooooooooooooo much for all you have done. You have completely changed my whole life and outlook towards my husband. I was at my wits end bit you have given me tools that I needed. Have to go and I will finish later.
Thanks again B
*******************************************************************************
Steve Cooper
KIM COOPER, I LOVE YOU
& thank you!!!
Lynn,
Wow. That is what I feel like could happen to me. There has been infidelity in the past, that was a huge blow! But I feel like he could be doing something right under my nose and I wouldn’t even know it. I try hard to pay attention, but I have a big history of denial…
Good luck to you in your process. It is not easy. Most of the time that I am struggling I come here to this site and gain comfort from venting and identifying with others who have used strategies in Kim’s program that have worked. It always makes me feel better to know that even though I hurt because of the realtionship I long for but don’t have – I have me, and quite frankly that’s better than anthing else.
Keep growing and love yourself for all your efforts!!!
Hi Kim,
Just wondering if you and Steve will be making new radio shows in 2010? If so I have a request for a show topic – dealing positively with verbal abuse.
Since it is not easy to get outside help for verbal abuse, it is difficult for me (and no doubt many of us who blog here) being emotionally involved to know how to approach the verbal abuse.
I get the value of and use the “magic scissors” and self-soothing, but when I have calmed down and feel ready to deal with the crisis/drama – I find that my husband is not always approachable or receptive and I have always known that I lack the skill of positive assertiveness. If I say to my husband how his behaviour has been unacceptable, and how I feel hurt, etc – he only sees all my best efforts as lecturing and self-righteousness – he might be partly or wholly right – who knows – but I really need to work on my communication skills.
I have recently learned how to approach things differently – by using reflective listening to mirror my husband’s stories/dummy spits and projected emotions back to him.
This then shows him that I am listening and that I “hear” his emotions and in reflecting those emotions back to him, I am allowing him the opportunity to own his own emotions, and showing him that I understand how difficult it is for him cope with his own emotions (even though I may be feeling unsupported and like I don’t matter to him).
Encouraging him to own his “bad” feelings may show him also over time that he can & will survive those feelings and move on. He has had difficulty all his life dealing with “bad” feelings.
The art of reflective listening can also promote a balance of power between us, and reciprocity modelling.
The other thread I would like in this show is how to give an effective, genuine apology, and when not to say sorry – for example – out of habit, or sarcastically.
Throughout your material you have many great examples of how to respond to abuse, etc – it would be great (especially in times of crisis and despair) to have a radio show that is a one-stop-shop with lots of examples on how to remain calm and grounded while using language and content that will promote recovery & growth not only in the Narcissist, but in ourselves.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Hi Allison,
Wow! You have come such a long way, and become so centred! In reading your story, I don’t think that even if you had actively continued to try and stop your husband’s self-destructive choices that you would have stopped the eventual outcome – it may have slowed it down for a while but not stopped it unless there was some miraculous awakening in him.
As far as him blaming you for the situation – it goes to show that they don’t like or want to have to take responsibility for their own actions. Of course there is some intertwining of choices and decisions made as a married couple, however you did not make him pursue his personal business ventures during working hours with his previous employer – he chose to do that himself and at the expense of his job!
This same thread applies to Stephanie’s husband who blames her for his drinking – Stephanie does not bend his elbow to make him drink – he makes that choice (albeit obscure to him) out of escape from his pain and unmanageable life and GUILT. (To Stephanie – if your husband’s drinking is causing him problems – then he may have a drinking problem – I got so much help by going to a world-wide support group called Al-Anon and you may have a group near you- it was like pouring oil on troubled waters and it compliments Kim and Steve’s program in many ways).
A large problem not only for Narcissistic people, but for all people throughout life is dealing with BLAME and GUILT. These two things are behind most (if not all) verbal abuse – we tend to hear that we are being blamed, but what we often don’t see or “hear” at the time is the GUILT that the person is experiencing, and how they are not able to handle the guilt along with their other “bad” emotions that they are feeling – probably in part because they have never learned that skill, and partly because of their irrationally high expectations of themselves and others, and partly because of their present inability to love and accept themselves as a fallable human being and that it is OK not to be perfect, etc.
When you can recognize the guilt behind any blaming type of confrontation, you can then see the anger, hurt, frustration, fear, etc that is being projected onto you or others because they cannot deal with those feelings within themselves – and that is why it is pointless trying to defend yourself – in doing so you may appear self-righteous to them.
I have just asked Kim if she will make a radio show on how to deal with projected blame, guilt, frustration, hurt, fear, etc in the form of verbal abuse – how to see and reflect the emotions that are being projected on to me so I don’t have to try and defend myself or strive for recognition that “I matter” because I never win anyway – and the emotional ping-pong match may continue with no real winner or positive outcome.
From what you write Allison, it sounds like you didn’t get into the blame game, but found your centre again quickly and you are now taking control over your own life. It is one of life’s greatest gifts to find that you can only change yourself by rediscovering your core values and beliefs and developing new ones, and learning to love and accept yourself again exactly how you are in the present moment – a new you that empowers you to do anything! It is so sad that this light has not yet switched on in the one we love – but it is their life’s journey and we can only set an example for them to show them the way – whether you stay together or part ways.
Good luck Allison!
CD, Australia.
Thanks CD (-:
OK I will let the cat out of the bag about our plans for next year …
I don’t know about radio shows yet as with me becoming taxi driver for the kids (my choice to build attachment with them) I am going to have to be even more super organized than I am. I won’t share details but Steve and I have also been going through an onslaught for the past few months from a narcissistic person close to us which has been horrible but also has given me new insights and shown Steve exactly what it is like dealing with this from the other side (LOL). OK so to cut a long story short this has caused some new major breakthroughs in our understanding of this condition. The first is how much anxiety plays a core role in both Narcissism and Codependence (as well as so many other conditions). Because of this I am looking at creating a new website this year just dealing with anxiety and doing a massive amount of research on this as well as developing and licensing new products, diets etc. for this problem.
On the other hand and more direct to your ideas I had already had close to the same idea but instead of a radio show I think it might be an ebook full of responses to verbal abuse. Ebooks always take more time than I think they will but hopefully I can get this done pretty quick and since you have asked for it I will start on it before I start the new website.
A bit more on the anxiety insight is that what I have realized is that controlling behavior is really just a means used to try and control anxiety. We have all probably witnessed this when we stop letting ourselves be controlled that our partners anxiety increases. This is what happened with Steve and in my case I had him in a position where he then actually collapsed from his own internal stress and I was able to then take charge and take things to a better place. With many people writing in here however and from my own experience too I see that this is not always easy to do and some peoples ability to handle very high levels of anxiety without backing down differ from what happened with Steve.
So I hope that by researching anxiety I might be able to also come up with some ideas to come at this from yet another approach. If anxiety is the base line issue for both parties I feel it may be possible to come up with a program that highlights couples similarities (anxiety) rather than differences and helps take the pressure off rather than having to push it to the point of breakdown as I did with Steve.
OK so this is all in research stage right now and I will need to give this a lot of time but I thought I would share these insights as I know that all the people who visit here and you especially CD are very wise about these matters and this might help you come up with some ideas yourself.
You cannot let down your guard however!!! Back on the war front please consider this …
Most teams in sport are either good at offence or defence and few really good at both. If you are always running defence and you live with someone who is always on the offence it can be really scary but also worthwile to realize that you may need to change strategies if you want to win the game. This is like what happened with Steve and I. He was really good at playing boss and intimidating us but when I finally found the courage to stand up to him and run offence myself I discovered that his defence was very weak.
I am not talking about being abusive back but I am talking about being really clear about what the result is going to be for the bully in your life if the abuse continues. Letting someone know that you can and will report them to the police or even that you have a recording of their verbal assault on you that you will give to the police or other significant authority figure in their life if they don’t wake up to their problem is not you being a bully too it is just you standing up for yourself. Please note if anyone tries this please do not show or tell them where the recording is or threaten this if you do not have the courage to go through with it. At all times rule one is keep yourself safe.
So until I figure out more about anxiety this is really in my experience what it MUST come to before they will cave. Steve didn’t turn around from me playing nice guy but from showing him I was in control and not him and that his game was up.
I hope this helps.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
You are right – anxiety is a huge factor in the both of us – my husband tries to calm his anxiety with alcohol & workaholic – I try to calm mine with food & workaholic – both methods are “emotionally stupid” and self-destructive.
The traits of narcissism are not far different from the traits of co-dependency, and I have always wondered whether anxiety is at the heart of it all – fuelled by fear, blame, guilt, inadequacy, frustration, self-pity, anger and resentment etc. I mentioned in one of my posts recently how my husband is hyper-active, hyper-vigilant, hyper-sensitive etc and chews his nails until they bleed! Clear outward evidence of anxiety in him! I on the other hand am thought to be a calm and patient person by others – if only they could see how hard I clench my teeth and try to relax that clench by chewing or singing, etc!
I have often contemplated whether each one of us have both the traits of narcissism and codependency at the same time, and at all times – and by learning and growing emotionally intelligent and becoming emotionally mature we evolve into a ??????. Pity there is no “label” for what we are all striving for – we have labels for disorders and diseases, but not for a place of healthy emotional maturity – or is there no defined level of that because there is always more to learn, always a higher place or level of understanding to achieve? Or is it so that the egotists and self-righteous, etc of this world should not claim or exploit that “label” when their judgement might be blinded by their own light? There would have to be a way of proving yourself or being assessed for a right to be awarded “label”. And what happens if you later lose your way and don’t deserve that label anymore? Better then not to have a label??? Sorry – just a bouncing ball in my brain!
Thank you for your comments about taking a tougher stance than the bully – whenever I try that I always end up defeated and suffering for it – in fact I think he has left me now because I tried to stand up for myself, but if not then I guess that is what I have to work on – right? To plan on winning the battle?
If your new production is to be an e-book, could you also possibly publish it as and audio-book for sale? I have found the radio shows excellent because I can still work or drive while listening to your message – an audio-book on CD would be the same convenience. Unfortunately time is not always on my side to read your wealth of material over and over.
One more suggestion – could you provide links on each of your websites to your other websites, this site and your new blog site, etc?
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Hi Kim,
(Below is an e-mail draft I had prepared yesterday but did not send it because I thought it was too long. I instead drafted and sent a shorter version today – then after reading about your coming new work about anxiety I responded earlier today – but then I thought perhaps I should send the original draft to hi-light my various anxieties about my communication skills, especially with aggressive people – in fact I have anxiety in almost all levels of verbal interaction – scared of saying the wrong thing or offending someone. My husband is quite the opposite however – he doesn’t care who he offends (or does he? since he is so anxious all the time?) – I know he bluffs his way through life, but many people seem to like his grandiosity, his star-like persona, his stories where he is both the victim and the hero, and his harshness and arrogance – but there are many people who don’t like him also – he has been labeled by some as “notorious”.
Anyway I thought I would send my original draft, because there may be something useful for you in your new approach regarding anxiety – I try hard to truthfully and candidly dig deep into my own personal inventory, and also my husband’s inventory in order to understand how I might relate better with him. If I could overcome my anxiety and help him overcome his then we may calm down and feel safe to trust each other enough to form a healthy attachment again. I hope this draft is of value to you in your new work.)
Just wondering if you and Steve will be doing radio shows again in 2010? If so I would like to make a request for a show that concentrates on the art of effective communication – by staying in charge of your own emotions while listening carefully to your partner, “hearing” their emotions behind what is being said. From that I would like to develop and use scripts that are compassionate, empathetic and respectful toward my husband that will encourage a power balance within the relationship, and therefore hopefully promoting reciprocity by modelling – in other words communicating in a healthy way as an important part of re-parenting my loved one.
One of my greatest challenges is that I feel ill-equipped in the present moment to respond to verbal abuse or negative emotional confrontation. I sometimes get too panicky in my mind to sort out the “this from that” and I may respond in what I think is the most positive or assertive way – meaning no harm – but inadvertently sometimes adding fuel to the fire, or I run from the confrontation, or I am too numb or freeze on the spot through emotional overwhelm.
The other thing is I have trouble dealing with these days is – complexity within the interaction – being older and now not so spontaneous as I used to be to deal with too many threads at the same time. Sometimes I have a short term memory problem through medical factors, being over-extended and stress, and I cannot always recall what has been said in its entirety – in other words I have mental blocks probably from stress, anxiety and confusing interaction.
I therefore find it hard to do the mental acrobats required to listen and retain all that is being said while analyzing what emotions I thought I “heard” to reflect back to my husband (in the face of potential verbal aggression). Another factor is my husband denies, or selectively does not recall, what he has said or done, or he races off on other tangents – perhaps as a way of avoiding his emotions.
My husband will deliberately provoke a fight and you can actually see him getting an emotional “high” when fighting, and he does not stop fighting and tantruming until I or others are left in a muddle of confusion and despair, and find ourselves sometimes apologizing to him regardless of the circumstances. He calls this prowess “streetwise” – I call it bullying but he doesn’t believe it is that. Of course he sees it that everyone else is the problem and to blame for his anger and shortcomings.
I know the importance of the magic scissors and self-soothing – and use this to cut off pointless string pulling and/or to take time to consider the most appropriate response to negative confrontation, but sometimes I do not realise what is happening until after the fact and we have collided yet again.
In “Disarming the Narcissist” Wendy Behary talks about “reflective listening” – the gift of balance – and her example of this revealed to me why my husband may feel “lectured” by me when I respond according to how I feel or my point of view – rather than showing that I “hear” how he feels by reflecting what he is “emotionally saying” relative to the topic, and that it is important not to defend any criticisms of me or others, but instead show understanding, compassion and respect for him when he may be feeling anxious, inadequate or powerless (although he might be portraying powerfulness and control by bullying at the time).
This is showing that I “hear” he may be struggling or suffering emotionally and that he does not always know what emotions he is experiencing – that all he knows is he is angry.
Behary also talks about placing personal attacks on a mental shelf and picking the right moment to reflect those comments and respond in the most appropriate way or at least to let it be known that you have heard the comments, and then to let it go if it is not worth pursuing or if it could become a ping-pong match of accusations and escalation of the conflict.
Behary however is professionally trained to do this – but to the lay person who is emotionally involved it is a mine field of fear and uncertainty, that is ultimately psychologically damaging for both parties and difficult to recover from – especially because verbal abuse is not easily revealed or proven to others, nor something that the police would be particularly interested in – let alone take action upon, and it is difficult to find a mentor that my husband would respect.
I also would want to keep it as simple and natural as possible – my blogs are frequently too long here and I need to learn how to be more concise and to the point! I am not professionally trained in psychology and do not want to pretend or sound like I am – especially because my husband who discredits “all that psychology stuff” – and he may resent me sounding “too smart” for him creating further power struggles.
I know my husband is not in a very good place at the moment, but I need to learn or further develop this skill of “hearing and reflecting” and the virtue of empathy anyway.
Throughout your material you have some great examples of responses and actions to take. It would be much appreciated and invaluable (especially when lost and in despair) for me and perhaps others who suffer from verbal abuse, criticism and put-downs to have a one-stop-shop radio show or audio-book that we can purchase on CD that we can listen to that specializes in “hearing” what your loved one is really communicating underneath the hostility, and a collection of various “I hear your emotion” type responses while staying in charge of your own emotions.
As you said in one of your articles – you only had to do this a few times with Steve and once he felt he was being “heard” he stopped being so angry at you and your family all the time.
Also, I would like to hear material on when and how to give an effective, genuine apology and examples of that, and when not to say “sorry” – for example out of coercion and/or submissive habit, or just plain bad habit etc.
The level of calmness, understanding, compassion for others and the feeling of being grounded that you talk about is the level of serenity I am continuing to strive for – and that requires raising my communication skills, self-esteem, confidence and spirituality to stay above the button pushing and focus on listening and hearing the “real deal” and speaking with compassion and empathy.
It is difficult to remain unmoved when my son, my daughter or myself are the subject of the criticisms or put-downs – at the time my mind races about the validity of the complaints, my emotions run wild, and my self-esteem is constantly being eroded only to require rebuilding again, and again – and that can cause me to miss catching and dealing positively with all the “curved balls” that are thrown at me.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
This is a question about my situation. I will sum it up as best as I can. I was dating someone whom is NPD on and off for about 6 months. The last breakup he met someone 2 weeks after me and went into a serious relationship that turned into him getting engaged after 8 months of dating her. I am in love with this man and I will do anything to be with him. I had been seeing him in passing for on a monthly basis in which he would just stare at me and not acknowledge me or me acknowledge him. I finally ran into to him yesterday in a supermarket and he acknowledge me and we talked he looked in shock to see me. He then told me that he had gotten engaged to the girl he was dating a realized about a week later that it was the biggest mistake of his life. He then said he stated a few months to see if things could work and he plotted his escape out. He has been apart from her for 5 weeks. I gave him my number because I had changed it and he gave me his because he changed his as well and then he gave me a kiss. What is my next step? Do I call him or wait for him to call me? I know he has commitment fear and I don’t want him to run. Please advise, I’m confused, I don’t want to loose him again. Also, I had approached him when we broke up that I though he did have a personality disorder, he stated I do not.
Thank you.
Dee
Hi,
Examine your fears one by one – be totally honest with yourself and dig deep. You have realised that little by little you have allowed this man to take over your life and your home – for example you will not communicate with your friends on the phone in front of him, and by your own self-analysis you are becoming more and more isolated from friends, and introverted when you used to be extroverted. It is important that you maintain your friendships, and not sacrifice them for this man that you are trying to please or placate.
Don’t allow him to come and go just as HE PLEASES with little or no regard for your plans – change the locks if necessary and don’t give him a key – he is behaving like he has Title to your home when he is not entitled.
Say NO when you should – and don’t put your life on hold waiting for phone calls and text messages from him.
Don’t fit your life into his – make him fit into yours by having your own plans and goals – and sticking to them! Revolving your life around him is handing control of yourself over to him, and he is not respecting you or your needs for that – it can take you back to a place where you have been before, and you don’t want that – your over-eating is possibly a warning sign of this pattern reoccurring.
Make sure you have a hobby, interest or goal that requires daily or at least weekly commitment – so that if this relationship does dissolve you can keep your mind busy while trying to make a clean and final break from the relationship, instead of falling into a state of despair where it hurts so much you may go back to him.
In the meantime you will become more attractive to him if you put your own needs above his – and it is good for him too to learn to respect you and your needs.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
I don’t know where to begin. I feel like the life has been sucked out of me. I have recently decided to stnad up for myself and I’m paying the price. I am a “stay at home mom” and if I stnad up for myself he won’t give me gas money or grocery money. When I asked him for money he told me to take back a Christmas present and to use the money. He is an awesome gift giver but I finally realized that it is show so other people will think I’m crazy when I try to tell them how mean he is to me. Please help me. He has been accused of having a girlfriend and I found some really disgusting sites on our computer history. Of course not long after our computer of only 2 years messed up and my husband took it to be fixed and never brought it back home. He tells me to shut up constantly which I was taught was very rude and disrespectful. He has forced me to do things that I will not elaborate on. He is a carpenter and has a side business but will not fix things around our house. When I ask him why he puts his heart into fixing other peoples things he says, “they pay me”. He started a screened in porch about 9 tears ago and will not finish it. I don’t even mention it any more. He will fix things for his parents and brother though. It’s like he is constantly seeking their praise and approval.If he goes out to shoot baskets with our 14 year old son he (my son) either comes back almost in tears or frustated beyond words. My husband competes like a child instead of acting like the adult. He coached our son in baseball and he was awesome at it. When we would get in the car he would yell at him for the one thing he did wrong even if he had made two homeruns and a triple. My son finally said he didn’t want to play any more.He NEVER compliments any of us. Our 7 year old commented on the way to church ond day, “daddy did you tell mommy how pretty she looks?” His reply was she didn’t tell me I look good.”I am so tired of my husband treating us (the 3 kids and I) completely differnt in public. Our 17 year old daughter thinks he has 2 different personalities. He will help with the trash and even the dishes at church but rarely takes out the trash at home and thinks dishes are the womans job. He sits in the car while I carry out 2 or 3 casserole dishes to take to church and then when we get to church he jumps out and helps carry them in in front of church memebers. One time we were heading up a meeting about vacation bible school and I had brought a t.v. so our youngest would be occupied during the meeting. I carried the t.v., the vbs info, movies, pencils, etc. to the car. When we got there I was leaning in the back to get the t.v. out and a male church member pulled up. My husband jumped out of the car and literally leaned over me in the car and said I’ll get it. I was angry and said “no I’ll get it, just like I did at the hosue.” I had it in my hand and he jerked it from me slammed it into my arm and carried it in. As we sat down I pulled up my sleeve and it had instantly left a bruise. He actually said sorry, which is rare. I really need help. I constantly compalin to my kids. I think I say stuff to them because they are the only ones that truly see how he is and it is so frustrating!!! This is not fair to my kids and I take complete responsibility for this. People see him buy me things (nice things), put his arm around me at church, fix things at church, make things for the church, coach. He pays the bills. He is a hard worker and I get to stay home but I pay the price. Outside of our home he makes comments about how glad he is that I stay home with the kids. In our home he says things like “I’m tired, I’VE been working”, “You don’t do anything”, “if you want something go to work”. When I took an entrance exam to go back to college he said NOTHING when I got my acceptance letter in the mail. He then planned a surprise trip to the beach during the time I was supposed to start classes. It was miserable. I hate going to the beach with him. The kids even get grossed out by the way he stares at girls. One time I was at the pool reading and I was right in front of our room and 2 younger girls (about 19) were laying in the chairs beside me. I didn’t know my husband had come out until one of them said, “oh my gosh there is a creepy guy behind us staring at us.” I turned around in my chair and sure enough there he was. The girls got up and left. He literally stares right at peoples clevage. It’s very degrading to me. I have tried to maintain my weight and I try to put effoert into my appearance and I now know it will NEVER be good enough. He has gained a bit of weight and I don’t care. We are supposed to be at a comfortable stage in our marriage.I feel like a prisoner. He pays the bills but goes crazy if I ask him about how much he made on a side job (carpentry work). He never puts money in savings but works a lot of hours. The only $ we have in savings after 18 years of marriage is from our tax returns. Every time the check comes I put it in savings. It is true people think your crazy if you try to cofide in them. Thanks for caring. I feel so lonely and scared!
Hi
On Sat I told my husband of 1.5 yrs ( second marriage) that I loved him but he needed to move out and work on his issues by Jan 31 or I was filing for a divorce. Ii told him I would no longer support his verbal abuse by putting up with it.
In Nov I had written him a letter asking him to get counseling and telling him I had zero tolerance for any more verbal abuse. He said at that time he would move out if there was more.Last week when discussing it he blamed the name calling on me saying I push his buttons.
I moved out of the bedroom because he wakes me up at nite to yell at me. Ii told him Ii would no longer ride with him in the car because he yells at me and I am captive and because he drives 80mph when he is angry.
It is hard to set boundaries but I am going to try and stick with them.
Now he is talking like he does verbally abuse us and he is going to go to counsel. time will tell since I am taking this new path after talking to a lawyer, counselor and pastors and friends.
Oh Tonya,
I feel for you. It is a hard road and with it comes a whole bunch of challenges. I can’t write much right now, but I will try to respond to your post asap. Please know that your worth is NOT to be measured by ANYONE other than you and your efforts in this world. DO NOT let this man allow you to decide you are not in control of your happiness. You are a very special person, strong (which I know – because anyone who has faced someone with narcissism HAS to be to survive) and capable. Please reach to your inner strength and get to a “better” place and hopefuly you can use some of Kim’s program (ebook: back from the looking glass) to get a handle on how to get yourself back!!!!
Good luck!
Kim,
Your information is very helpful for people saving their relationship. My situation is of a little different nature. I have depression,anxiety, and OCD. These issues were not real issues until the end of a very bad relationship (she is a sociopath/personality disorders) and I’ve been trying for months to recover from loving this woman and what she did and it’s not working. I’m looking for help I haven’t been able to find. It’s killing me…literally. Where can I find some useful information? I don’t have money, btw. Another issue created from her.
Thanks,
Ed
Hi Tonya,
Have you been able to purchase Kim & Steve’s e-books “Back From The Looking Glass” and their workbooks? If you are unable to afford it, is there one of his gifts he has given you that he wouldn’t notice if you took it back to get a refund to purchase the above?
Just for today though try not to tackle all your problems at once. Try to get your head around what you are dealing with by reading, listening, studying, and communicating with everyone here – gathering knowledge, wisdom and strength as much as you can before you take him on yourself. This will take some time though – so give yourself that much needed time.
You do need outside help urgently though for your safety and basic human rights – Kim’s e-books above point you in the right direction on how to limit the abuse and stay safe, and where and how to get the appropriate help from outside.
Unfortunately your children cannot help you with adult issues, and it is best you don’t lean on them – talk to your local domestic violence officer, minister, or us instead – adults who can possibly help you with adult issues.
Reassure your children that you love them and that things may get rougher for a while, but you must be strong and get outside help urgently to stop the unacceptable behaviour (which is financial abuse and the other forms of abuse that you are suffering at the moment – but don’t say this much to your children even if they probably already know it anyway). From this they will see the beginnings of a new found strength in you and that is a great example to set for them.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Ed,
Please know that you have many people you can talk to here at any time and draw on their strength to help get you through this – there IS a light at the end of the tunnel – you just can’t see it right now – but have faith – you will get there! In Australia we have help phone lines and internet sites such as http://www.beyondblue.org.au for depression, anxiety and other conditions.
Maybe you have something similar in your country – especially on the internet, otherwise log on to the Australian Beyond Blue website – you may find some help there.
Please, please keep reaching out for help and you will get through this – you are worth it – and one day your experience and recovery may help someone else who is on a path you have already travelled.
Living with a person who has narcissistic personality disorder or narcissistic tendencies can cause serious psychological problems in those who are closest to them – but you can and will recover, however it will take time, patience and courage.
Just take baby steps for now – and make sure you stay in touch about your concerns or progress no matter how great or small.
CD, Australia.
Hi,
Reading your information has been very helpful. Thank you. I am pleased that there is information that focuses on the positive. That helps a bit. What is not helpful in my situation is that the information I have read has been helpful and useful, but not effective in my case. Well, not yet anyway.
I have been dealing with this in my marriage for almost a year now. I guess technically, I have been dealing with it for 14 years! But, I addressed it last January. It was not the first time issues were addressed, but the first time that I really addressed my own issues and didn’t get caught up in the whole game. I stood firm and finally asked for some consideration. I knew that I needed that, and finally considered myself for a change.
What I have been dealing with is all of the obstacles that have been thrown in front of me to get in the way of taking care of myself and my family. I really have enabled this to happen to a certain degree (up until a year ago), but I assumed that I was dealing with someone who had our best interests at heart. I have found out over this past year, that he isn’t really capable of REALLY doing that. He is intelligent enough to know what to say about it to give the impression that he knows. But doesn’t actually do anything to show it. How’s that for an overly general explanation?
My life has been reactive. It is hard to take care when you are constantly reacting to situations. Because the reactions are the goal! Ugh. I am faced with “stunts” daily. Many of them are small. But they sure do take up space! And continue to keep me off balance to a certain degree. But, now that I know more, it isn’t as deeply frustrating. I am more deeply disturbed by other, bigger issues in our relationship.
What I have figured out is that I am stronger than I thought, maybe a little smarter too(?), and can control my emotions enough to function. Which is good! I have also discovered how I am able to care for people. I have paid attention to what I actually do and why…also good!
So, my husband doesn’t really respond well to my type of care. Because my method is to consider my feelings and limitations, communicate why (I think) I feel the way I that I do. He takes this personally because I end up describing all of my reactions and what I react to (his behaviors). I try not to sound accusing, so then I ask questions. Why did you do that? Why aren’t you home? Why wouldn’t you ask me first? Why don’t you trust me? Things that I don’t agree with and really KNOW the answers to (a.k.a. the stupid stunts) I ask about. Ya…he doesn’t like that. Early on, I tried going back to just doing whatever. I’m afraid that it made me pretty sick to my stomach. Then I created some boundaries to create space. I have had less space than ever, which is bad because I didn’t have space before! I have tried not reacting and just being. Still asking from time to time how he is…all not effective.
Rational though isn’t working well. Saying the “right things” aren’t really good either. I am not optimistic. I just don’t think I am really the right person for him here, and I know, from what I have seen, he isn’t good for me. But, we have a family. And I am open to whatever may change. I am getting pretty tired of asking questions and not getting any response except that he doesn’t feel compelled to talk to me when I get a certain tone or whatever. But, I am not allowed to respond negatively to him because he is going through depression (which I’m sure he is, but it is not his only issue). I am supposed to support and understand. Well, I do. I just don’t blindly accept anymore. And I also will not let him manipulate me anymore.
I’m just reading and thinking and taking care of my responsibilities. I am even listening to my husband when he chooses to share something. But, I am wondering how much more I can take. I am not in a position to leave. He isn’t living at home, by his own decision, that I don’t disagree with. But I am being punished for him not being here. But he knows the door is open. I believe he just wants me to “come to my senses”.
I am just waiting to see and putting things in place to protect myself and leave if I think that is the right thing to do. Because now, my instincts tell me this is not good. But I also don’t believe that breaking things up now is the right thing. Not good for anybody. I just don’t know yet. I am being pressured into deciding for us all. That’s not cool. But, I won’t. Not until I am ready.
Thanks for reading.
Lori
Thanks so much for the words of encouragement. This might sound strange but it is almost comforting to know that someone understands and has been in your situation. There have been so many times that I have felt so alone. I look back now and see very clearly that our relationship was toxic even when we were dating. He cheated on me with a neighbor and even got physical (pushed me off of a bed onto the floor and I hit my head)when I told him I did not want to be with him any more. He asked people out behind my back and made the typical promises that he would never do it again. He is the only person I ever really dated (one other guy for about 2 months). My dad left when I was about 8 and I only saw him for about a year after the divorce. I guess what I am saying is that I really craved love and affection, so to a point I guess it was my fault that I setteled for someone that treated me like that. I see now that my husband deliberately denies me of affection and gives it for only one reason. He has gone hunting when I was very sick and had a sick baby as well. When I tried to tell him that I needed his help he said I got sick just because I knew he was going hunting (which was pretty much every weekend).I now know I would rather him not be home even if I am sick. I am going to try to get Kim’s info but was cut short yesterday, (I thought my husband was home), which explains the poor spelling from yesterday. Please pray for my family, especially my kids and my husband. My kids are so incredible especially considering the things that they have seen and heard. I don’t want my girls to settle for someone that treats them like this and I don’t want my son to treat another human being this way. I sometimes feel so overwhelmed. I try to think positive thoughts when I wake up and thank God for another day. My kids need me. I love the Lord and I know that he is in control, but I heard the comment on your video about making changes. It’s time, I’ve got to make a change. I have tried so hard to ignore his scary body language and his rude comments. Just Sunday he called me stupid because I put a tape in to rewind it for my son and his friend.My husband was watching t.v. and a commercial was on at the time. My son’s friend heard him and it embarrassed my son. I just ignored him which made him more mad. What do you do when his family contributes to how he is. I tried to confide in my mother-in-law and she just made a comment about how he buys me nice gifts. I don’t want gifts I want to be hugged and held when I’m sad and to be taken care of when I’m sick and praised when I’ve done something good. I would have liked for him to have helped me when I had a baby that was up all night. Wow I guess I had a little pitty party, sorry. I finally feel like I am not alone. I know that this is the beginning to the answer of about 20 years of prayer. I do see now that I have been waiting for some light to go off in his head and that he is going to feel remorse and get help. He has apologized a few times to the kids and I and has even told the kids that he has a problem with his temper. Last year he even cried and told them that he would work on things and within less than 24 hours was yelling at us at the top of his lungs. He so rarely apologizes that it catches me off guard and I fall for it. I am very compassionate and I sometimes wonder if this is a curse. Thanks again for the support, concern, and friendship.
Love and God Bless-T
Hi Kim,
Do you know if there’s any correlation between Narcissism and scizophrenia? My Husband’s mother was diagnosed with it and I’m wondering if they are tied. My H is a narcissist who displays all of the symptoms. Is contradiction a symptom? He says one thing and does another. He tells us that he loves us today but tomorrow will tell us to get out.
Hi Ed,
There is free information to you available at thelovesafetynet.com. If you unable to purchase Kim’s products due to financial reasons, please contact the helpdesk at support@narcissismhelp.com.
Kind regards,
Kerry – Admin
Hi Kim,
As you may get these letters alot I accidentally stumbled upon your website. I was quite intrigued when reading about your marriage and Narcissism, I perhaps know how it feels to be in a relationship with a person who has these traits. My boyfriend and I have been together for 2 years and I love him dearly but I always knew in that there was something wrong I just could never put my finger on it. In the beginning everything seemed great and I fell fast. In the mean time I had gotten sick, he was there for me, then out of the blue he dumped me while I was in the hospital. This completely devastated me and I was upset, in his response, he said I was being clingy because I was questioning him on his day. We ended up patching things up, but in any circumstance of him having to relate to feelings he pushes people away. He’s well aware that he does this. He has a daughter and so do I, and he has told me that to show her affection is sometimes uncomfortable for him to do. He is a very distant person and yet when he does become a warm person, which is barely ever, I feel like I better appreciate the short lived actions. He doesn’t have many friends and was neglected in his childhood and has many disturbing memories from it. Although he’s not physically abusive he’s very demeaning, he makes me feel like I’m not good enough, although that was mostly in the beginning. When I didn’t know him all that well I would blame myself for everything and I would praise him all the time thinking that maybe it was his self esteem or something. The reason for this, He had gone through a horrible breakup and he blamed his ex for everything. I don’t think that is the whole case but I do believe that she contributed to the outcome. She was manipulating, cheated on him with his brother and left him with there daughter to take care of her while she was out feeding her alcholism. These things are true I’ve seen how his Ex is for myself. I don’t know if he lost faith in relationships or if he does have this disorder. He is very critical but laughs and says hes joking when addressed or says its his sarcastic humor. He treats his daughter differently thatn mine he’s more stern with my daughter than his own. When we argue he’s always the right one and very rarely apoligizes for his behavior. Not to mention he keeps me to himself and doesn’t take me around family members even though he spends most of his time with me and they know about me but it seems like he keeps them at a distance and out of the loop. He’s often very polite to strangers and can carry a great conversation but with me sometimes I feel like I’m just a nobody. He boasts about his body and how he looks and how he believes he’s an Alpha male. Along time ago in the beginning when we had way more problems, I seen him curling weights when his ex walked through the door to pick up their daughter. He’s very sensitive to criticism. Some things that I would dismiss and attend to at a later time, he would either act quickly over something small or knaw on something for long periods. In order for him to do something that I believe would be a logical thing and if he disagrees I have to swing it into sounding something for his benifit for him to compromise. He stays stuck in that past and its very hard for him to move on. I sometimes feel like I’m the one here to help him even if at some points I can be manipulative it is for his benifit. I also read Nacissitic people have tendancies to be manipulated and abused themselves for that of which I think takes place mostly with his ex, then of course, I have to take another stance to turn it the other way. I would have never stayed this long if actions didn’t speak louder than words. I know from his actions he really truly does care for me but this is hard to deal with and I’m glad that possibly I will be able to find the answers I have been waiting so patiently to find.
Hi Kim and Steve,
I have been following your book and website and also a couple of days back I had to see a counsellor regarding my depression and anxiety. Even she stressed on the point.. “get you money sorted” mostly for the reason that I need to feel safe. All our money is in a joint account. I just usually have a $100 -$150 a month with me for my day to day expenses. Other than that I do not have any money separately (nor does my husband.. that’s what I know of). So last night with great courage I bought this up that all the money that we have in joint account can be there but from now on I’ll keep what ever is left of my pay after expenses in my individual account. As expected that did not go too well. He thinks its all about money and now I have become money minded and don’t trust him. I am taking the relationship backwards instead of forward. He is adamant that whatever I said is completely wrong. And if I still feel I should have my money separate and want my independence back then there is no future to this relationship and I can take the share of the money and end the relationship. He says that there is only so much he could have changed in himself and he has done that. He says that he has always been constant in the relationship (been the same and had the same demands) but its i who is the confused one as I was first submissive and now i want to be independant again.I am now totally confused about what to do. Please help
S
Ok slighlty confused about the N I have in my life. First and foremost. I have been told they have double lives, mine on the other hand has one with me and the kids and the other with his family, which I’m included but not always. He allows me to be around his mom just not his brother for obvious reasons. We have separate accounts but I have access to all his spending, with him knowing, and there isn’t a shread of evidence that he’s done anything different than he does now. Hes quite the penny pincher and nothing goes to waste. Although about him possibly not being attracted to me may be true. I have gained weight but I noticed when I become more of an independent person emotionally and feel good about myself his response to me is quite different. Although the one thing that jumps out at me to make me beleive he is an N are 1. He’s very critical and sacastic. 2. Holds his emotions at arms length and pushes people away. 3. When he grew up he was neglected by his stepparents including by his mother. 4. When there is a problem with his behavior, he somehow tries to twist it in becoming your problem or someone elses fault and very rarely says sorry. 5. Can become overly dramatic and very sensitive. 6. Can be somewhat self absorbed in his looks Ex: Bragging, but he thinks its good to be positive about your looks well of which is true to an extent. Although, describing these symptoms of a potential N in my quest for research for obvious personal reasons I have learned that there are different variations of an N. In my quest, I want to find his type and how to deal with it in a positive light. I do believe in the close future, I will be buying Kim’s books when I have the funding. I’m happy I stumbled onto this sight, in which it gives you hope for potential and that it could lead to a positive outcome. One thing that I have learned that is somewhat frightening, is that looking back in my history my last serious relationship which was with my daughters father is that he I believe to was an N. Unfortunitely he was to far gone to be saved I guess you could say. The lying and abuse was enough for me to say See ya, and when I did, he made it very difficult for me to leave. But I thank my local law enforcement for helping me in our separation. I never looked back but I was definitely scared from this. I think about how these men are attracted to women with low self esteems and that there are many people out there who have this disorder. I also want to learn ways of pointing out these types of men and how to boost my self esteem and get myself together. This will help me just in case the future starts lacking in my current relationship. So if I do decide to start dating again I will know the signs and run as fast as I posssibly can. Til then I know I have a long and educating journey in front of me.
Oh how I can relate to you. I am also unmarried but have been with him for three years and we do not live together thank goodness. I am trying something new and I will pass it along to you to see what you think or others too for that matter. To condense my story my N boyfriend has extended his verbal put downs to my 14 year old daughter. The omething different I am doing is that I am not taking his phone calls at all. We have just started talking on the phone last night, he called and I felt sorry (not so new behavior). Today I informed him that my daughter has plans for the afternoon that involve me driving her and her friends to the mall and dropping her off with another mother picking them up and bringing them home. I will be gone for about 1 hour total but he told me that the day was shot and he didn’t want to hang around all day to see me. Here is the new me coming, I said fine even though his statement is off the wall. We never in the past seen each other during the time I will be gone but fine let him have his way. I feel that if a person wants to see another person, 5:00 in the afternoon is not too late. I also told him that I have homework to work on and of course that didn’t go over to good as well. I am going to college at night. You know what? I don’t care what he thinks anymore. I am tired of it being about him. I am a person and this is my life. If he looks upon my life and doesn’t like what I am doing with it he should move on and not waste my time and his trying to rework it. I sub teach 5 days a week, go to college at night and maintain a home with bills with no help from anyone. If he cannot see the value in me I will let him make his own choices and let it go. Please don’t feel sorry for the little child in the grown up body. How would you treat a real little child if they did the same thing? Hopefully you would stand your ground and say this is what it is about and if you don’t like it too bad.I refuse to feed into that little child that is disrespectful, mouthy and selfish. I withold the only thing I can with this adult child and that is the presence of me which I feel is special. I hope that helps. I used to feel sorry too, not no more, its time to grow up for our N boyfriends!!!
When my husband and i met he was a very loving generous man 10 years ago then he became very abusive i put this down to him drinking excessively he is a charming man or so everyone tells me outside yes but at home he cuts me off he lives a double life affairs lies i had decided to divorce him then the bombshell he was diagnosed with cancer i love him and forgot all that had gone before which i had considered living hell but no there was more hatred for me in store he told his children i wished him dead his ex wife who had not spoken to him since their divorce was supporting him he has tried to write me out his will he tells people lies about me he says very upsetting things to me and when i respond he tells me he is taping me he will not talk to me then all goes quiet he deletes all texts and phonecalls to and from his ex so i cannot read them his children and grandchildren no longer come to the house and are not speaking to me everything that has happened is my fault these last six months have been hell i have gone through every emotion possible he has never once considered my feelings i am so tired i cannot write a lot but all the things i have read here tells me i belong so at least i know i am not totally alone thanks
Hi Trisha,
It is good to hear you are re-thinking how to handle your situation. Your boyfriend sounds like he is floundering while still trying to call the shots. It will take a long time and a strong stance on your part to successfully re-parent him. It sounds like you have consciously detached from any unhealthy emotional attachment and are getting real with how things need to change – especially putting yourself and your daughter first.
How has your daughter been since your boyfriend hasn’t been on the scene like he was before? If your boyfriend is to come back on the scene, I would like to suggest that some clear boundaries are drawn about how actively involved he should be in the disciplining and rearing of your daughter. Dr Phil has an excellent article on the role of a step parent which is worth reading regarding your situation at http://drphil.com/articles/article/243/
While your boyfriend’s intentions may have been good toward your daughter’s welfare – there obviously are some differences between the way you and he think children should be raised, and there are differences on how he treats his daughters versus how he treats your daughter. It also needs to be established – based on the level of commitment of your relationship – how much right he has to directly discipline your daughter, or if he has any concerns to instead bring those concerns directly to you to assess whether you should discipline your daughter directly yourself while maintaining the right to raise your own daughter in your own way. This should work vice versa for his daughters also.
If he is narcissistic, there is a danger that you have an adult child who is emotionally immature having an influence on your child’s upbringing. Whatever happens – your daughter needs consistency and balance. She needs to feel safe while being raised to be a responsible and emotionally mature adult.
Raising children is not easy – especially teenagers who are still children and frequently behave narcissistically to get what they want – this is a skill developed right from early childhood. It is up to the parent(s) to ensure that the narcissistic side of their child is set straight with gradual and consistent progress (albeit obscure progress at times!) that they are not the centre of the universe and that the world does not revolve around them – and that life is easier when they come to terms with that.
There is no substitute for learning good parenting skills – and in order to achieve consistency and balance this could be a requirement if your relationship with your boyfriend is to continue – that both you and he are to study a good parenting program (and the same one) to iron out your differences in parenting. There is an old saying “United we stand, divided we fall” and children can readily learn how to expertly and perhaps narcissistically exploit the divisions – even divisions that you aren’t aware of just yet!
The side benefit in studying a good parenting program may be that your boyfriend could expose how his upbringing may have been deficient or negative, and how he might improve his life – in effect maybe re-parenting himself a little or a lot. This last point may also apply to the co-dependent regarding their own upbringing – and also how to re-parent themselves and the narcissistic side of their husband/partner/loved one.
A program that I thoroughly recommend is “Powerful Parenting” by Davina Sharry and you can view information and excerpts about her program at http://www.powerfulparenting.com.au
Probably the last thing you need now on top of your work and studies is more reading! However I found this program excellent for strengthening my position in dealing with the narcissistic side of my husband and other narcissistic people that I may encounter. The result for me was that the time I spent became the time that I saved in more readily recognising when the child within the adult was acting out – enabling me to reduce my anxiety levels by effectively and appropriately cutting off immature and manipulative behaviour sooner, and then getting on with my life/goals immediately. As Kim said the narcissist is looking for a strong parental figure – and mine chose me, but he had worn me down until I found out why and a better way – and that is the hard lesson that I am still gratefully learning.
I hope these suggestions help you in some way.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Ya,
I’m afraid I have a pretty significant problem with the whole parenting part of this. When I got married, I was under the impression that it was a two way street. The meeting of two individuals, two people that are there for each other, supportive, dealing with all of the crap of life together. Maybe being able to meet at the end of the day sometimes and even enjoy each other’s company to some degree.
Yes, my husband needs some serious guidance. But, I don’t really feel like my job as a WIFE is to teach him how to be an adult. He is a big boy and is intelligent. He knows what the right thing is to do, for whatever reason, he just won’t. And if it is because he is immature and self absorbed…does that make it impossible for him to alter his behavior? He knows he needs to, he’s said that out loud!
For the last year, I have stood up for myself with my husband. I needed support from him AND personal space. He has NO CONCEPT of how to give me that. I had no idea how much I was robbed of that for so long until recently, when I have gotten even less. He continues to fight me on everything, doesn’t communicate regularly, has very sporadic behavior, unpredictable as usual.
My strength has certainly been his downfall. He has been stomping his feet like a child for a year now. My personality is NOT attractive to him. He just wants me to accept his goofy behaviors and continue to support him. All of this with no real promise that I will ever be able to count on this from him in return. I haven’t ever really seen it before (except financially, and he has since stopped working, ugh!).
I will continue to support him, and help when he lets me. But, his behavior is extremely unattractive to me. And teaching him how to be is even more unattractive to me. I will do it, but I don’t know if I can stomach it as his wife. Blech! Not a fan. I have three children already! And I enjoy their company! My husband’s, not so much anymore.
Not optimistic.
Lori
CD,
Thank you so much for your suggestions. I will try to find the time to review all of them. It is a challenge. Just today, he called and left me a message saying ” I love two people so much and he has a problem because we view him as a monster”. Well I can think of some other adjectives but I won’t. When he does call back I will remind him that he still hasn’t explained to my daughter his veral outburst, (I gave up on an apology and don’t feel it would be effective anyway). I feel an explanation would be better and it seems he doesn’t remember that we were the only two people that he loves that didn’t get anything for Christmas from him. I think of him as a child and then plan how to deal with him as if he was a child. That is all I can do for now. We have not seen each other for about 2 weeks now and to be honest it is easier to detach. The bad thing is that I want to hurt him life we hurt and that is a bad thing to have on a heart. So any suggestions would help. Thank you again Trish
Hi all,
I’ve been working on some of my own things, and have some catching up to do, but wanted to put in my 2 cents on a few things that were mentioned back in the postings a bit (still have to read the last week or so.) Sorry this posting could use some editing, but sleep is more important.
CD – I too have gone through the Behary’s “Disarming the Narcissist … it is now a rather dog-eared book. It has been very good for insight and ideas about setting limits. All of these resources help bring back strength and hope when I’m feeling low. I have learned that I have to be careful that I do not get to depressed, hurt and defensive after reading a lot about narcissism. If I say things too critically or too defensively it easily makes for a rough patch in my relationship which generally has been getting better.
I know yours was not a few weeks ago, and during my last nadir you encouraged working on building attachment … I don’t know if you feel able to do that now, but you two have shared a lot of things together … perhaps you can when the holiday strain has passed. Perhaps also you can indirectly (maybe have someone else) remind you husband that alcohol really destroys his sleep cycle next time he is complaining ???
For everyone – Regarding the radio show (or e-book) about how to respond to verbal abuse … I too would support that idea. The empathic listening strategy has helped me too, both because communication can get so distorted, and because it seems to allow my husband to hear that I am making an effort to make him “feel good.” (ironically his words -from one who typically focuses only on the principles and logic in conversations). Sometimes I am really struck by how much my husband hears what I am saying more negatively and more critically than I think I said it. I know that the reverse is also true. I also am seeing how sometimes my schema of being defensive gets triggered, and it is much better when I can hold off and not respond back.
Several people have remarked on the fact that all of us have some narcissistic tendancies that compound all of this. It infuriates me when my husband points those out in me (ie my giving half truths about my computer being at work for some new communication software because I didn’t want to admit that yes it was not working fully and it was getting repaired, and have to hear his lecture about how I am too careless with it.) He is right I should not have been deceptive, and that is weak, but that does not make me responsible for all of our issues (as I tend to internalize when he starts pointing out all of my mistakes and flaws.)
Anxiety / stress management / and taking responsibility for our own self soothing – I agree these are part of the dynamics between narcissism and co-dependence. If I have time I will put together some more cohesive thoughts on this.
Sometimes I can identify the anxieties of my husband’s that are behind the criticisms, – the days when he doesn’t just let something go that he might another time. I wonder/worry if there are things he is covering up, but I am still responsible for that part of my behavior which was wrong, and need to stop trying to avoid or take an easier out. If I can just answer – yes your right, and reinforce what he was saying, and then tune out much of the tyraid, it is usually shorter. This seems to give him a safe space to dissipate his angst which is probably stemming from more than whatever triggered it. Coming back with something nurturing later seems to help … some days – like this fall for me, it is really hard to do.
Hope these thoughts help someone.
I have not been able to purchase any of Kim’s info. I did however see that Kim stated on one of her blogs that the higher your expectations are about the N in your life the more disappointed you’ll be. That has helped me more than anything. I still after 23 years found myself expecting an apology after one of his mean cruel verbal attacks. It has been harder for him to get to me since I read that. It seems as if my heart has a small shield around it now. I was always taught to apologize if you said something that hurt someones feelings. His family is very prideful and thinks of this as weakness. He does not feel remorse like most people. He has said the meanest things and then proceeded to tell me to, “shut up crying, I can’t hear the t.v.”. I am a very forgiving kind-hearted person. This is not something that a N admires. It is something they prey on. Even last night he deliberately kept me awake for two hours by abrutly moving around in the bed because he was mad because I did not do somthing with him. We had not gotten home until 12:30 a.m. because we had gone to visit some friends. By the time I got in the bed (after getting our three kids in the bed, feeding the two dogs, and brushing my own teeth) it was 1:30. I read my bible and finally turned off the light. He by the way had taken a 3 1/2 hour nap before we went to visit our friends and went straight to bed when we got home. I finally gave in so he would let me sleep. I was already exhausted because he snores and had woken me up several times on and off all week. He has sleep apnea and if he is mad at me for whatever reason he refuses to wear his sleep apnea mask, to punish me. I have been stronger since reading Kim’s free info. but it is hard not to get worn down. I really want to go back to school but when I try it’s as if he sabotages it. Even if he didn’t I sometimes wonder if I could handle it given the stress, lack of sleep, and to be honest lack of confidence. I truly feel for the person that has to get up and go to a full time job. Some days it takes everything in my power to get up put on a happy face for my kids, take them to school, and make it back to the house. To top it off about 7 years ago we refinanced our house and I went with him to sign the papers. Months later when I went to make a phone call about our mortgage payment they said that my husband had to call because I was not on the house note!!! I had no idea that my name had been taken off. We couldn’t even get our home loan without both of our names when we originally purchased our house. I have been a stay at home mom for 18 years. I am terrified that I am going to be left to live in a card board box. I don’t enjoy being around him. He is mean, controlling, and very unpredictable but I feel trapped. Today he is working on his brother’s basement for free (making it into an apartment for his nephew) but won’t finish anything around our house. In our house five people share one bathroom. His brother has a huge house with 3 bathrooms and a full basement. Right now our son is trying to figure out how to change the oil in a go-cart because my husbsnd has been telling him for two weeks that he would change it but never seems to have time. My daughter has been waiting since Christmas for him to hang a heavy picture up over her bed but again he won’t make the time. I normally would hang it but it needs anchors and a level to be hung. I asked him if I could use his level and he said it was at his brother’s. He won’t bring it home. I know he does not love me and that he would replace me just like that. It dosen’t hurt like it used to but I’m not sure what I need to do. I am tired. It’s nice to know that someone out there cares.
Hi Tonya
Reading your story really hit home for me because a lot of what you talked about could be almost my exact situation. I can definitely relate to what you are saying as I’ve somewhat walked in your very shoes!
I have not purchased any of Kim’s info either, but I read this board and watch Steve and Kim’s videos.
I have been also somewhat of a Youtube expert in this area, making videos of my own as another outlet for the frustration I have felt being the wife of what I term “an Intermediate Narcissist.”
I stopped expecting “normalcy” from this man a long time ago, as I realized all my hopes and dreams would be crushed if I continued to think he’d suddenly magically change into “prince charming.”
Just as you said, there are obvious signs of dysfunction through his entire family!
My husband really does not feel remorse or empathy either…and that, when you have little children and grandchildren who get hurt, can be SCARY…or, even if YOU need medical help. His reply was always and still is “ohhhh you’re FINE. They’ll be alright.” I can’t tell you how many near-death experiences I’ve had because I almost LISTENED to him and didn’t go for help!
The meanest thing he has said so far was the other day when he said “shut up or I’ll punch you in the mouth!” I hadn’t heard a threat outta him in years, so this caught me way off guard. Unfortunately, I found myself then threatening my daughter to smack her…UGH, that’s NOT ME at all…that
s me picking up on his ugly projections!
As far as being kept awake, my husband ground his teeth for YEARS AND SNORED! I snore too, but I lost weight recently so it’s not as bad. (It is CRUEL that your husband refuses to wear his sleep apparatus!)
I am so glad to hear that you read your Bible. God is the MAIN help in time of trouble, isn’t He!
As far as the sleep situation, I finally got tired of being sleep-deprived, and began sleeping upstairs with my daughter since summer. Only the other day did I manage to get a queen sized bed to afford my husband and I more room and space, and I moved him back in with me, under stipulation that all CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECTS REMAIN OUTSIDE THE BEDROOM!
Regarding going back to school…I tried 4 x and every time my husband had not turned in the tax info so I couldn’t get my grants! I had gone back a few years ago but he stopped doing the tax info suddenly so I had to drop out. Recently, I signed up for online classes and told him “If you ruin this for me, I will LEAVE!” So far, he hasn’t screwed me over on it! I am working toward my Bachelors in Psychology.
Financially, my husband always got bank accounts and other things in HIS name. As soon as I started working, I took out a bank account in my name, just in case I had to leave. The bad thing was, when I wasn’t working, it depended on HIM to fill the account, which of course, he let slide and I defaulted and lost the account entirely. THis happened several times….ugh again.
I don’t enjoy being around my husband either, but not because he’s unpredictable. He is VERY PREDICTABLE, like living with a robot and everything always has to be done the SAME WAY or he has a meltdown. So I’d say he is BORING more than anything and acts like he’s about 7 or 14 years old at any given time. It is almost like living with someone who has dissociative identity disorder. He DOES dissociate too, which is really irritating when I’m trying to handle serious matters with him and he Zones out!
I DO understand. I DO hear you. I DO care. I am LIVING it too! Do what you can to reestablish your identity apart from him, like I did.
If you want a friend to talk to, feel free to email me at futurehopevm@gmail.com
~Laura
Oh Tonya,
I was reading your post and I had to say I completely relate to the “punishing” aspect of the narcissist. That has been one of my biggest downfalls. My husband can’t handle me being angry with him – even though I’ve learned how to better defend my boundaries and also learned how to (though sadly I don’t always practice) disengage and walk away. I can say I no longer feed into the arguements and try to defend myself like I used to. I know I have rights, I know what he does isn;t kind or respectful. I don’t second guess myself anymore. After 8 long years of doing that and getting nowhere but more confused I’ve learned to walk away. It’s such a different animal; the narcissism. I mean after I read these posts it’s like we are in a alternate universe here. It’s sooooooo hard to get your head around the fact that most people around the narcissist (like your husband’s brother???) think these people are so fantastic (because of their lack of being able to say no, or disappoint people), while we experience the downfall of them trying to playing that role.
I am in the middle of a HUGE trauma at home and this is actually the worst it’s ever been. My husband is punishing me for being angry with the situation I’m in right now. I am not treating him badly, I am not being unkind. I am trying to focus on ME and my children and figure out how to best care for them now. He isn’t pleased that it is taking me time to figure it all out. He has been provoking me for weeks. He refuses to come to bed at a reasonable time, so he wakes me up in the middle of the night. Then he refuses to get out of bed and help with the kids. He disappears and won’t answer the phone when I call to see if he’s going to make it home for me to go to my appointments. He refuses to engage with the children so that they can see he loves them, he actually withholds love from his children, which obviously makes me sick! He verbally abuses me in front of the children so I will have to engage him in a reprimand about how that isn’t appropriate. It’s awful, I know what you are going through – AWFUL!!! So sorry!
I seriously feel like I’m in the twilight zone sometimes because of how crazy it can feel. I go through these phases of feeling strong and powerful to feeling completely defeated and weak. I also get very impatient with the process. During the really tough times I waiver, and wonder how to get the hell out. But I know that if I hit the door running, I’ll still have to deal with him and his madness, for the kids. So I guess I keep trying to figure out how to make it right for me. I am in the process of trying to get a job. I have been a stay at home mom for 5 years. I don’t really want to get a job, but because of the fact that I have been financially dependant on him rather than be able to take care of myself and my children – we are losing our home and the only lifestyle that my children have known… If I had been able to contribute maybe it wouldn’t be the case, maybe it would, but at least I’d have choices. He was trying to get fired because he didn’t like his job, and then he spent large amounts of $$$ trying to start a business which never amounted to anything but a waste of $$$ and 2 years time.
So, I have learned that I need to rely on myself and even though you would want to believe that the person you chose as a life partner is going to protect and care for you and your family – it just isn’t the case for the narcissist. They have no understanding of union and 2 becoming 1. As long as you say, yes, yes, yes do that. It’s fine. When you say, “I’m not sure that works for this family” then the world falls apart and you’re on your own, confused and angry.
I hope you have some luck. And yes there are many people out there going through this together. Many times this blog is the source of comfort and strength that I need to pick myself up and hammer through it.
Allison
Hi CD, MR…
I read the book (disarming the narcissist)in July and that was my turn around point. But man, I feel like I need to read it every day for it to really sink in during the tough times.
My husband sees this book often because I use it as a resource often. He once commented that he was willing to readt it. Of course I was excited, and said sure. But he never picked it up nor have we spoke of it since.
What are your thoughts on the narcissist reading the book. I mean am I totally mad to think he’s get anything out of it anyway? He has been trying to deal with “intimacy” issues in therapy. He admits he’s a narcissist, says it’s true he doesn’t trust me. Said the other day, even though I have never given him reason to believe I don’t want what is best for the family which includes him, it doesn’t feel normal or natuaral to make compormises in his decisions. He admits that he has made many mistakes which might have been avoided if he considered my input in the process. At the end of the day, he says it doesn’t feel right to do things any way other than what he believes to be “the right way.”
I do beleive that he wants to build a partnership, but he openly admits that it doesn’t feel right to him. He also openly admits that making all the decisions and disregarding my position/boundaries is no way to get what he wants in a marriage (love, respect, support – dare I say admiration).
What do you think about how the narcissist would recieve the information in that book????
Is it better for me to just keep trying to run my own program and forget about what he should be doing to make an effort?
Thanks
Hi Kim /Steve /CD
Kim/CD thanks so much for your support. I am following your advice and building a support network (I don’t know if you remember.. I am unable to look my N husband in the eye.. my lips tremble and twitch ). I also went to a counsellor and here is how it all went..
I hope one of you guys can guide me with this one..
I had posted the below last week..
“January 15, 2010 at 8:40 am
Hi Kim and Steve,
I have been following your book and website and also a couple of days back I had to see a counsellor regarding my depression and anxiety. Even she stressed on the point.. “get you money sorted” mostly for the reason that I need to feel safe. All our money is in a joint account. I just usually have a $100 -$150 a month with me for my day to day expenses. Other than that I do not have any money separately (nor does my husband.. that’s what I know of). So last night with great courage I bought this up that all the money that we have in joint account can be there but from now on I’ll keep what ever is left of my pay after expenses and rent in my individual account. As expected that did not go too well. He thinks its all about money and now I have become money minded and don’t trust him. I am taking the relationship backwards instead of forward. He is adamant that whatever I said is completely wrong. And if I still feel I should have my money separate and want my independence back then there is no future to this relationship and I can take the share of the money and end the relationship. He says that there is only so much he could have changed in himself and he has done that. He says that he has always been constant in the relationship (been the same and had the same demands) but its I who is the confused one as I was first submissive and now I want to be independent again. I am now totally confused about what to do. Please help”
Now after all this my husband came to me the next day and apologised for all that he said (that he cannot change.. I shouldn’t have married him..etc etc)
He said that he did not mean it and just said it all because he was angry. And whatever he is saying now is with a sane mind. I explained how I an still sacred of him and though is not physically abusive any more or has stopped calling names he is still very much intimidating. Screaming in a fit of rage ,breaking and throwing things around is not acceptable. Even if he allows me to do something he may pick a fight about it or put me through so much pressure that I cant even enjoy what he is letting me do. Every time we are at a social gathering I have to keep looking for his approval as to what I said or did is right or wrong. I cannot pick up his phone when he is not around (doesn’t a wife has the right to do that…just say yes he is not at home / in a shower .. how are you .. we are good.. can you call back later / I’ll let him know you called ) I am sacred that I might have to face false accusations. After all this he said that he realises that what he is doing is wrong and that is his basic nature and he does this at work with his subordinates as well. We also discussed about his anger issues that he says that he has no control over what he does or says and later apologises. He seems to be addicted to anger like someone may be to alcohol. Alcoholics do all sorts of things when they are high and then later apologies or say that they do not remember as they were drunk. He seems to get a high from anger and probably it gives him a feeling of control over the other person. He said “yes”. He accepted what I was saying was correct and he wants to work things out. He feels he is at a stage in life where he wants to settle (buy a home) and have a family (we do not have any kids yet) and does not want to ruin things. He said that the money discussion we had was still wrong (and it was bad on my part to say that I wanted to keep my pay separate. These are just temporary fixes and will not help in the long run) but if I wish to keep it in my account he will not say anything. Well after all this the conclusion was
– he said he will fix two things immediately
1. Not be so critical and judgemental about me over silly issues
2. He will not stop me from being in touch with my friends and family.
– he accepted that he has anger issues and other issues he needs to deal with (probably is possessiveness and insecurities etc) and he will seek counselling for the same.
Now this seems to be a total turnaround from the night before. I do not know what to make of this. I would be thankful if Steve could also suggest something regarding this. As I am unable to understand what is going on in his mind .Does he really want to make things better or was it just be cause he did not know how to deal with me as I am now trying to be more independent and bold. He also said that he does not want to be alone. I wonder if he is thinking that I might leave him as I asked to keep my pay separate (although I assured him that I wont). Is he trying to save our marriage or his dream (of a perfect marriage ,a home , kids) cause if I leave him his fantasy will fall apart. He has never mistreated me in public. To the world we seem like a perfect couple.
S
Hi MR,
Good to hear from you – many thanks for your words of encouragement – I especially identified with what you said:
“Sometimes I am really struck by how much my husband hears what I am saying more negatively and more critically than I think I said it.”
My husband is so defensive and resentful he construes things I say negatively or critically, even if there was no negativity or criticism spoken. This has been exposed to me by observing that my husband thrives on drama – he is constantly on the alert for confrontation of any kind – if there is no drama then he will create a drama because that is his “supply”.
I consciously try not to feed into that supply by taking notice of other things happening in my life and the world and making conversation about those things instead of focusing on him (so as not to play into his self-absorption).
Many times I have talked about things that had nothing to do with him but he distorts what I said by claiming that I am really saying things about him “in between the lines” – Uugh! This man can be impossible at times! Maybe even super-paranoid!
How come I can have a light hearted two-way conversation with almost anybody I come into contact with – but with my husband – all I see is a scowl and the guns blazing – and quite frankly I am exhausted from dodging the bullets! Our marriage guidance counsellor told me not to internalize everything he says – that he is not just angry at me – he is angry at the world! What is he hiding! What skeletons! What is he doing now that he doesn’t want me to know about? I know he is addicted to alcohol – are there other vices too?
Time may tell!
I am trying to rebuild trust and attachment, but it is very difficult to do with an angry grizzly bear who so self-absorbed he can’t see the light of day!
Hope things are going better for you.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Hi Allison,
I don’t see any harm in continuing to leave “Disarming The Narcissist” lying around for your husband to read – but he might not like or believe what he reads if he does read it – or he may just read it to see what you are up to in order to block your efforts to re-parent him, etc.
My guess is he has already had a bit of a read and does not like what he sees. He is therefore continuing to be in a state of denial and is disconnected, abusive and dodging accountability again.
He would also be suffering truck loads of guilt over your current financial predicament – and he can’t bear the pain of the guilty feelings he is experiencing right now and for being held accountable for what has happened (his problem though – not being able to cope with his feelings). So he is trying to make you or others his scapegoat one way or the other to make the pain go away, and to retreat into La-La land again.
Try to avoid the “blame game” on what now is history – focus more on what you and he can do either separately or together – ask for his ideas and input. However he probably doesn’t have much if any confidence at the moment – probably not such a bad thing because he is possibly feeling (underneath the guilt) quite humble at the moment – a better place to be though to make more realistic decisions from.
Thank goodness you had done so much work, and had your head screwed on so well when this crisis happened.
These challenges however are also opportunities – think hard and act upon the challenge/opportunity that has come your way right now. Your husband is at a rock bottom – a casualty by his own hand – and that is why a book that I think he is more likely to pick up, read and get more out of initially is “The Art of Happiness” by the Dalai Lama.
Hopefully your purse strings will stretch enough to be able to buy a copy in your current financial situation – maybe an early birthday present for your hubby? maybe you could borrow it from your local library?
I believe people are more inclined to read material that guides us towards happiness and contentment first – especially during times of great unhappiness and despair.
Then once we get a better perspective on the truly valuable things in life, our minds become more receptive to examine the deeper and more confronting personal issues that we have. This is difficult for a narcissist to do – especially when the issues are not very flattering to the narcissist who protects his image and avoids reality at all costs!
Your story has been an inspiring one Allison, keep up the good work and please stay in touch.
CD, Australia.
Hi Suhela,
Kim is about to post an amazing piece of writing on her blogspot account about many of the underlying issues around verbal abuse and aggression that you are talking about.
http://kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com/
I am certain this will answer many of your questions. I have similar anger issues but I’m beginning to learn how to weed it out sooner rather than later these days. The big step for me was to realise that the team I wanted to play for was the team that is Kim and I. I’m also completely committed to the team that is Kim, the three kids and I too, but that is a close second to the most important relationship that is Kim and I.
The kids are my blood and we will always have that link. Kim and I are a married couple and modern pressures are always gnawing at our heels. If we do not commit to any kind of solidarity to each other, there are a million competing forces out there that will try and drive us apart. I won’t find a better woman than Kim, but for some silly reason, I used to think I could. That was the bad old days, when Kim and I were not a team and when aggression was a regular feature of our home life.
I hope you enjoy Kim’s post, I really think you’ll get a lot of answers from it.
Steve.
Hi Kim,
Congratulations once again on writing such an extremely incredible and helpful article! I feel that this article on how to handle verbal abuse is as important as Back From The Looking Glass and your Workbooks. Could you still possibly make it available in e-book form for purchase? It would be great if it could be printed in a pocket book size – personally I would keep a copy in my handbag – readily available to read at any time in times of crisis or despair and/or to keep focused on the bigger picture.
In my own mind I have dubbed this article as “The Little Book of Empowerment” – designed not only to help the victims of verbal abuse – but also indirectly to help the abuser overcome their false pride and misguided ways and attitudes.
Your article is the empowerment needed to help the verbally abused rise out of their victimhood and perceived powerlessness to stage a successful “mutiny” against the verbal abuse in their home (or outside world/workplace) where there is very little direct help available for this problem.
This article got me thinking that maybe Steve (and you) could prepare something from the Narcissist’s point of view, the struggles he suffered and how he overcame (and continues overcome) the self-defeating ways of narcissism. I would think that if a book like this was available in e-book form for purchase also that it would be in high demand and a good thing to leave lying around for the narcissist in my life to pick up and read. I am sure many others would like to do the same as me too!
My husband has said that he doesn’t know what is wrong within him, that he is scared to change “it” for fear of losing “it”! (“Control” in other words albeit “unhealthy and tenuous control”.) So my husband continues within his comfort zone believing no-one could ever understand him. The break down Steve suffered is the break down my husband fears most and me too!). It would be important I feel for my husband (and others like him) to read Steve’s story and know that they can and will survive it – that life is good on the other side (out of the bubble) – and that there is at least one person close to them now who has a better understanding than many about this disorder and that they are prepared to support them through it. To read about narcissism from the perspective of the narcissist is probably better than reading about narcissism from the perspective of the observer. Just a suggestion anyway – to provide help for the narcissist too that is.
Congratulations again, and thank you so, so much from the bottom of my heart to the both of you!
Cheers,
CD, Australia
Thanks CD.
I feel bad I haven’t got back to you until now but as you can see I have been busy! These type of articles take a lot out of me and you know finding the answers always teaches me something new too. The stuff about adding the virtue that is missing is honestly so counter intuitive to me but whenever I do it I am amazed at how fast it works.
I have talked to Global Talk Radio and they will be helping me produce this as an audio CD for sale early this year so thanks for that idea and yes I might also make this into an ebook, I am just going to really have to schedule my time so carefully this year with me having become taxi driver for the kids! That plan is working well however and we have already had some great heart to hearts.
I am so glad that you liked the article I really put my heart and soul into it (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
HR – In one of Kim’s first two books is a section on ending a relationship with a narcissist. Briefly, be overly solicitous and let him believe he is the one making the decision – however go to the source as I do not readily have the time to review the details for you. My suspicion is that “letting him go” any other way will leave you too vulnerable to being pulled back in.
Allison – regarding spouses reading Disarming the N. I suspect my husband has seen it around, and perhaps also some of these sites … he occasionally says that I am what I think he is … meaning I am the narcissist (or that I am just like my mother – implying being totally self-centered as he has concluded about her.) As I have said before, there are kernels to that which I think are true (and some recent events are making me re-reflect on that) however I don’t think that is the whole picture. I really do not think having him read the book would be a good idea, and I suspect it would just provide further information for him to use to push my insecurity buttons.
CD –
I too find it difficult to really listen and hear my husband in the middle of an arguement. He knows just what to say to push at me, and to get me into a space of being defensive, so that I am no longer being rational and I no longer feel confident in my perspective or understanding about anything.
I am cautious about explicitly saying “I hear your emotion” type responses, because when I have tried to say “I hear you,” or “yes I understand.” in response to criticisms it can escalate if it comes across as a canned or insincere response(which if I am already feeling angry, it can very easily be.)
You said in an earlier posting,”It is difficult to remain unmoved when my son, my daughter or myself are the subject of the criticisms or put-downs – at the time my mind races about the validity of the complaints, my emotions run wild, and my self-esteem is constantly being eroded only to require rebuilding again, and again – and that can cause me to miss catching and dealing positively with all the “curved balls” that are thrown at me.”
Oh how true … I too can get caught in defending against the minor details where his criticisms of me are wrong, and in the process escalate the whole arguement rather than just being able to diffuse it. I wish I could apologize better, and accept responsibility for what I have done wrong without accepting and buying into everything else that seems to get attached to the situation (both by what he says, but also by my own mind.) Clearly this has much to do with what is in my own mind, and not really in what exactly I say. I think for both of us there is a trigger of feeling overly culpable and in the same way defending back against being wrong.
MR
Hi MR,
Your comments addressed to me certainly gave me food for thought! I understand what you are saying and totally agree that things can escalate in the middle of a confrontation if I try to analyse and show him that I “hear” his emotions behind what he is saying – especially if he detects a lack of confidence or insincerity in me, and that can be difficult to conceal when emotionally involved.
It is a case of being caught between “the devil and the deep blue sea.” My husband is constantly looking for sympathy and understanding – and seeks that not only from me but others too – and when I pointed that out to him 12 months ago, giving him as close to verbatim examples as I could recall when he denied seeking sympathy from everyone, I suggested that and he agreed to go to the doctor and get a referral to a psych to get help with whatever issues he has and his depression and insomnia.
He has brought my comment about seeking sympathy up several times, since then – either defensively or attackingly – saying that the NLP said there was nothing wrong with him . . . . that I am his problem (I doubt a professional would say that without interviewing “the problem” also). I also doubt that she could remain totally impartial and objective because she knows him at a personal/emotional level. I also believe that he concocted his own story to tell me and others about the result of that consultation because he was telling it in a gloating way. He said he got nothing out of the marriage guidance counsellor. He claims that no-one could ever understand him – and says that sometimes looking lost and in despair, and other times with an air of arrogance, contempt, and I would even say “pride” – that he is unique and beyond the reach of all of us peasants!
It is when I see that latter side of him that I wonder why I hang in there trying to reach him – but when I see the lost and despairing side of him I want to help him.
The trouble is I don’t always know when he is masked or unmasked! When he is for real or playing emotional games! I also question why I would want to help someone who has treated me with so much disdain and disrespect for so many years – then I remember the good times in between and continue to hang in there holding onto hope, and also from realizing that I have been with him for 35 years and only known about Narcissism for just under 12 months of that time. I takes a long time replace old habits with new ones, and I think I am getting a real handle on it now.
After reading Kim’s article I am going to take her responses, and create more of my own if I can, to respond to confrontations of a personal kind towards me by my husband – including any taunts or button pushing about my son, daughter, grandchildren, family and friends – anyone whom I am emotionally involved with.
In deciphering which sort of response would suit each type of future situation that might arise – I will recall past events, how I handled each event and whether it had a positive, negative or neutral result – and if I were to have handled it differently using Kim’s advice – which response I would have used, and perhaps using the missing virtue (if I was able to recognise it in him whenever I not overwhelmed by my own inner emotional turmoil at the time that would have clouded my perception and judgement).
On the other hand, when he is confronting me about issues of a business kind – I will not only use Kim’s responses, but also on occasion use the reflective listening method only when the confrontation is not personally directed at me.
For example: From “Disarming the Narcissist” I thought I would try to develop a script of reflective listening that perhaps may have handled a situation better than I did recently by being DEFENSIVE at the time when my husband was name-calling and character assassinating one of our clients to me (although it was probably a personal attack on me in disguise because the man was MY client in the first place!).
These types of character assassinations by my husband can often be without substantiation – fabricated in his own mind probably in order to provoke a fight with me or others.
I consider myself a good judge of character and I found this client to be a warm and sincere person – but my husband didn’t have a kind word to say about him! My husband seemed to be threatened by him in some obscure way. My husband claimed that my client was devious and was trying to get extra work done without having to pay for it – but he seemed to be reacting to a greater threat than what he was saying.
I don’t believe my husband’s claims were true however, I was at every interview, and I defended the client, produced evidence, and also reminded my husband that he was given the opportunity to properly quote the extra work at the time, and that our client was prepared to pay for it.
My husband got angry at me for disagreeing with him and began to hurl abuse, see-sawing between being the aggressor and playing the victim over and over – saying such things to me like – What would you know? You don’t know anything! I am always wrong! I don’t know anything! (From these and other statements I could see the power struggle between us that Behary was talking about. I am comfortable with people having their own viewpoints and opinions about things and can respectfully agree to disagree. However my husband does not like people disagreeing with him – and he will right-fight to a bitter end.)
Realizing where the disagreement could lead to I disengaged immediately, but thought about what had just transpired – the offence, the defence, the volcanic eruption of his feelings “behind the story”, his apparent feelings of powerlessness, aggression and the need for understanding and sympathy – not about the topic of his story – but his struggle to cope with his emotions behind anything at any time.
A few days later and after contemplating the power struggle between us I developed the following script based on an example in “Disarming the Narcissist” which I hope has captured the essence of “reflective listening” – attempting to “hear” his feelings behind the bullsh*t (and since this same sort of story/topic comes up over and over about clients I will have a chance to use this script next time such an event occurs):
“It is very clear to me how upset you are feeling – I know how hard you work to give the best price you can to all of your clients and how unappreciated you feel for that.
I understand that you are feeling angry and frustrated because you believe you are being exploited by our client due to your fear that we may lose the job if you charge what you should and you feel that this is a burden you carry on your own.
I can’t imagine how difficult it must be for you and I can feel your tension about this.
Is there any way I can help?”
The emphasis in the above script is “hearing and acknowledging his feelings” behind the event – because it is clear that right from childhood through to adulthood he has not learned how to recognize/acknowledge and/or cope with many of his feelings, or maybe even been taught to suppress or deny his feelings. This is common in men like my husband whose father’s brought them up to be “tough” – no tears, fears, affection, appreciation or other “girl-ey” feelings, etc.
So hopefully I have some success at “diffusing the bomb” by choosing Kim’s methods for dealing with his confrontations against me personally within the marriage and our business, and using Behary’s reflective listening method when he is being confronting about business matters where I can easily remain emotionally detached and have to deal with business matters without always having an opportunity for self-soothing and disengagement.
One thing I do know is that my husband continually tries to sow seeds of self-doubt in me, and then attempt to reap tyranny from that – just to try and keep me down and out. He has always had a lot of respect for my father, but not my mother. I love my mum, and I do recognise her strengths and weaknesses/flaws – but she is an imperfect human being just like the rest of us. My husband said many times early in our marriage he found her “overpowering”. He treats me with the same contempt as he treats my mother – he has never outright said it – but it is plain to see he thinks I am just like her!
However my husband has a lot of problems with a lot of people and things that I can perhaps safely conclude that he is the common denominator in all of his problems – and he is his biggest problem!
My own assessment of my mother is that she is a law abiding citizen, a caring person who was active for many years prior to physical disability in helping children with cerebral palsy, and later running a school canteen for many years, sacrificing her own needs when she was raising us to see us educated, fed and clothed and much, much more. Other people love her very much – why doesn’t my husband? She has been married to my dad for more than 60 years and he respects me dad. Is it just plain misogyny with my husband?
I am yet to learn how to deal effectively with my husband’s various levels of disrespect towards my mother which in turn hurts me – but one thing I can always do – is not to doubt myself when my husband implies that I am just like her because I am proud to be her daughter, and she has made me so much of what I am today (and strong enough to deal with this terrible disorder called Narcissism!). I think I have just realised what to say next time he implies that I am defective because I am just like my mother!
Sorry this is such a lengthy post – I hope that my personal story and thoughts help in some way.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD,
Sorry to butt in – just a brief clarification …
I did not sympathize with Steve’s false pride, I completely went to war with it and would be very ruthless in not tolerating him putting other people down including myself. My reactions to this could probably have been seen by others at the time as me being very dominating and even somewhat of a tyrant (LOL). I would even stop him in front of the kids and say “Don’t you speak to any of us like that again”, with the most dead serious tone of voice and look on my face. Once he knew that he could not intimidate me or I would get straight on the phone to the police and I could also not be sucked into an argument he was really cowed by this. On the other hand however I was sympathetic to his gaps in a way that was very real. I stepped in and did battle with anyone who was expecting too much of him and even supported him financially while he learned skills better suited to his real needs and potential. I also helped him get out of debt and set challenges for him. I made it very clear that if he fought me he would be dealing with a tiger with metal teeth but if he surrendered and dropped the BS he would be 100% safe and I was there ready to be the strong and kind parent he was needing.
This is something that came up with a woman a few years ago whose husband did let his false pride crumble but then she was surprised when the tantrums started all over again. She was working a full time job while studying for a PHD and looking after her kids as well. I had to explain to her that if she really was committed to helping him she was probably going to have to find more time for him. Once Steve dropped the act he was nearly 100% dependent on me 24 hours a day for nearly 8 months while he relearned how to even watch TV with us. He would be so vulnerable and talk openly (and even cling to me) when we were together but in public or even in front of the kids he was for a long time just quiet or his old act would come back (to a degree) simply because he did not know what else to do. I was very understanding of this but I kept a very close eye on it. He was a full time job.
It is hard for me to talk about that side of things on our radio shows because it is still a very protective role that I play for Steve’s still somewhat fragile ego. He is much better now and he has tackled some very difficult challenges in the past 4 years that have made him very solid but there is still that pain around exposing his true self and vulnerability. It is a somewhat sad joke between us when I will praise him and sometimes he will look sad and say ‘but really I am still just a joker/clown’ and I will smile and say – “Yes but you are real with me sometimes too.” He knows I love him when he is sincere and unguarded you see but ‘the act’ is all he knew for so long that it is still of course a big part of him and learning to relax and be real a gradual process. I don’t jump in and say “You are not a joker” because I know him and the pain that getting carried away with others praise used to cause him (and the crash that would follow) was terrible. So my love is real love. I know that he does not respect anyone who lays it on too thick and I am always careful that I keep it 100% real.
For this reason I worry a little about the script that you mentioned because it is so important that he does not feel manipulated or that he can suck you into his self pity. Maybe I play it tougher than what would be right for you but personally when he carries on about not being understood by anyone I would look him straight in the eye and say “but we both really know that is BS and really you were just never taught manners or how to feel good about yourself” and then I might say “I feel plenty for you but NOT while you are telling yourself these fairy tales … if and when you are ready to drop the crap and admit how scared you really are and how much you hate yourself I am here for you.” After that I would get on with my own business but not be too far away so he knows you are truly available.
OK that might be all wrong for your situation but it is just my take on it!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
CD – once again I am struck with the similarities between our spouse’s behaviors. There is a hurtful judgemental, negative side to my husband which seems to be brought out by anxiety and sometimes the acute trigger of my repeating some mistake (reflecting his failure at picking the correct spouse???) I’m often on guard for that returning, but I find our interactions are better if I am not – if I respond as if he were only the “appropriate gentleman,” he would like to be, and almost don’t see anything else. (I need to think this through further, but wanted to pass on the strategy – our husbands present so similarly.)
I have some other thoughts about what both you and Kim have said, but need some time to mull on them.
Hi Kim,
As always your input is much appreciated – just a couple of questions though to help me absorb and comprehend fully what you have said.
Does all my husband’s criticisms, put-downs, negativity (even tantrums) = his “False Pride”? (I am trying to understand the term “false pride”.)
I have said things over the years to my husband like “Don’t you ever speak to me that way again!”, and “Stop criticizing me!” and so on. It always results in him punishing me for days and days on end by sulking, the silent treatment, disappearing, exclusion, verbal abuse, etc or while he is bottled up and sulking he gathers together a heap of (most times) derogatory remarks or accusations to hurl at me about how horrible and lower class I am (he nearly always regrets doing this later though but he gets to feel better venting his resentment – and I get destroyed again on top of the original criticisms and insults!)
Also for example: If he is sulking and I say to him “Are you going to stop sulking and (do whatever he should be doing)” he denies sulking – and therefore adds lies to the equation (tantrum).
I know he does what works for him and works on me and I wish you could bottle your strength and wisdom because I would buy gallons of it! I have always been good at defence – even in sport – and I get that I have to become good at offence in this situation – but I have never really been good at that – however I guess that is just another area that I have to develop the courage to change in – it is not a shortcoming, but rather growing an “unbreakable backbone” – and “metal teeth” as you put it – (Wow! I think I would even frighten myself if I got that good!) (LOL)
“—because I know him and the pain that getting carried away with others praise used to cause him (and the crash that would follow) was terrible.”
Can you explain the “pain” and the “crash” as used in your statement above – so long as Steve is OK with that being revealed of course?
Is my big bully really scared underneath his brutish ways? I reckon I have seen it many times but he is quick to bluff or mask his way through any situation where any of his insecurities or inadequacies might show publicly or privately – he covers up by being the life of the party, the big successful businessman, or by intimidating people – the smiling assassin that sucks everyone in with his charisma, charm and notoriety! And that is the crap that I would like to see him drop – because I know the real unmasked person – and he is a nice man – he doesn’t have to be more than his authentic self for me and others to love him.
Obviously from a low self worth, my husband scoffs at and does not accept at any unsolicited genuine (not gushy) praise I give to him, and yet he seeks praise from people and me all the time! And if ever he detects or suspects that I have put myself down – he gets very angry with me for doing that – which is very contrary to what he does to me.
With everything that is going on, with all that I know now – do I have what it takes to win the war??
Thanks Kim,
CD Australia.
Kim,
Thank you so much for posting those helpful phrases to use!!!! It’s so common sense, yet so out of my comfort zone at the same time.
We learned these same types of phrases to use in some parenting classes we’ve been taking, so it makes sense to apply to it to adults as well.
Thank you for making these helpful tips free as well…what a gift!
Hi CD,
Your questions have given me some ideas for a new blog post I will try and write in the next few days …
Hang in there (-:
KIm Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
I am looking forward to your blog regarding my questions. In the meantime I googled “false pride” on the internet and found a website that had not not only some good info regarding false pride but many aspects regarding human behaviour as well including “Tyranny”.
I have often referred to my husband as being tyrannical – not only with me, but with our family, clients, workers, business associates and others.
This article may interest and be of great benefit to MR as well since our husbands display so many similarities in their behaviour.
The website address is http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/tyranny.htm
This whole website has cast a lot of light on the dynamics of my relationship with my husband (and business partner).
Thanks again Kim for all your kind help.
CD
Thanks for that CD, what a great site!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hello MR
Well I did what you are not supposed to do with a N person, I broke up with him and I did the breaking up. I wrote him a letter, basicly saying that because of his actions, arguing,not seeing me because of the arguing, putting his teenage daughters over me and so on and throwing my engagement ring and breaking up with me and the list goes on, I am done. So done. I did call him afterwards and told him that I don’t hate him but feel that he doesn’t put any effort to make things right, just argue with me I feel that he wants to be done with me anyway. I know he is afraid of being alone and I think he just is nice enough to me to keep me there but is waiting to start something new with someone else. I am sort of on hold till that new person comes along, my feelings but they hurt so I cut it off, my idea. Now what? I need guidance. I am so serious about not being the safetynet till someone else comes along. I feel that this is coming because we have nothing right now together except fights. Is this the way a N person acts? Help
Hi CD,
As I was reading your post regarding “False Pride” I thought you were speaking my mind. It’s the same behaviour that I have to face. Recently as I have been trying to gain some control over things and I am facing this behaviour more often. Waiting for Kim’s blog on this one. I read the information on the website link on your post.. its great!. Thanks a lot for sharing that. I was thinking.. will it be a good idea if somehow I got my husband to read it?. Lately one day he says its all my fault that I am suffering from anxiety and depression as I know what kind of person he is so I should just ignore whatever he vents when he is angry. But the next days he himself agrees that he has issues and will try and control his behaviour. I don’t know if it will make things better or worse.. any suggestions?
Cheers
S
Hi S,
If this is the same ‘S’ that first posted to this website in December last year – I would first just like to say well done on showing so much courage and determination in the face of uncertainty – you have been very brave, and no doubt your husband would be feeling scared of losing you – hence his opposition to you and the importance of Kim’s instructions to make your loved one feel loved and safe at the same time as receiving strong messages about what is right, just and acceptable behaviour.
The website address I posted here this morning offers a huge amount of information regarding human nature, behaviour & emotions by clicking on each of the blue highlighted links or words in the text.
In my case my husband would not be very receptive to an article that would again paint him in a bad light or “image” because he is so convinced (or bluffing) it is not him – it is just the rest of the world!
My husband is hypersensitive to any direct or indirect judgement or criticism towards him – and the result is always futile, negative and sometimes abusive.
However he would most likely be receptive to another article on the same website regarding “The Importance of Emotional Competency” at the following address:
http://www.emotionalcompetency.com/need4.htm
This article is not directly about him (but very much about him and many others in the human race, perhaps including me). If I were to show this article to my husband it would be the most non-threatening way I have found so far that would hopefully awaken him as to how emotional stupidity is so self-defeating and/or potentially harmful to himself and others, perhaps even downright dangerous.
My take on this is that my husband already knows what negative and destructive emotions and behaviour I think he has – but he is too proud to say “I don’t know what to do about it” so he denies having a problem or needing help, preferring to stay in his comfort zone instead – because he can!
He reckons he has changed all that he can change, that he has done all the work and I have done nothing!!(??), and that he doesn’t understand all that psychology stuff!
I believe he is too proud and “above all that stuff” to ask for help from me or anyone else because he has got to be right and win at all costs.
I also think he is lost and in despair, but puts up walls to shield his vulnerability by using his smoke screen of tyranny. I, however, have to grow some metal teeth, as Kim puts it, to tear down those walls – but I confess I am really concerned whether I have what it takes to do that and to pick up the pieces from the fallout – and the consequences to our business and the people we employ. However courage is fear that has said its prayers!
In the meantime I am going to buy Daniel Goleman’s book “Emotional Intelligence”, and the Dalai Lama being interviewed in the book “The Art of Happiness” by psychiatrist Dr. Howard Cutler. I would think these books would be available at most public libraries – but if not could maybe be ordered in.
I plan to openly read these books myself for myself in front of my husband, but I will not be canvassing him to read them. If he was to read them it would have to be out of his own choice and curiosity, or his own need to learn about emotional intelligence and/or the art of happiness. For me to leave these books lying around is only making them visible and accessible to someone who may want and reach out for help – however the choice is ultimately his. All I know is I am going to continue on my voyage of self discovery and emotional intelligence because my happiness is my responsibility, and his is his.
Take care now,
CD, Australia
HI everyone
CD- I completely agree with your statement and sentiment about your happiness is your responsibility and your husband’s is his. However, how much of that is put into practice by any of us in reality? Saying it is so much easier than actually doing it isn’t it? Caring for them and loving them despite the difficulties makes it a huge challenge to say the very least! I know I have struggled with my own feelings of guilt in considering my choice to ‘abandon’ him and kiss our relationship goodbye.
There is still a part of me that wants to help him even if I cannot consider being his significant other. I do not want to leave him and have him not understand why it’s over between us and would like to be able to explain it to him. I know though, that the likelihood of him taking any of that on board is very remote. ANY show of guidance/advice will be seen as a direct insult to him and will not be taken well. Yet I know he has to at some point in his life, realise and accept that he is in charge of his life even if he really has not got a clue how to move forward constructively and comprehensively with that.
I have always believed that one should walk a mile in another man’s moccasins before finding fault with someone’s actions, however, as all of us here know, it is not always so easy to uphold that belief when loving people with this disorder. I have searched the very depths of my soul to find understanding for him before I knew what I was encountering. I am still searching for answers even now, in the wake of deciding to end my relationship with this man.
I have to speak from my own very deeply personal experiences, when I say that since joining this blog only a few weeks ago, I have really got into my own head space in a much more profound and explorative way than I ever have before! I have learned a great deal about N behavioural tendencies and traits and found out a lot more about why I am in this relationship and have felt immensely comforted by the fact that I KNOW I am not alone in this quest for not only knowledge and empowerment but also healing for us both.
H
Oh how I wish we could talk in person. I feel for you over this weekend. Let me tell you that the N person does not care about birthdays, only theirs of course. I have had mine spoiled by him, him not even wishing me a happy birthday. I am different than you though, I wouldn’t dream of paying for my own dinner!!!! I wouldn’t mind the meals at home but going out, he would have had to do dishes or something. I did tell you that I told my N in a letter that I was done. Now is is only one day later and I feel great. I am sure I will be sad some days and I was this morning when I woke up, but all I have to do is remember him on my birthday, throwing my engagement ring in my yard, never to be found, his mistrust of me, his damaging and cruel and judging words to me and let me tell you it feels good to turn the tables and know that without a shadow of a doubt I did the right thing for me. He asked for it as far as I am concerned, not only asked for it but worked real hard at getting the result that he did. I was always raised that you reap what you sow, well this is it for him. I am not saying that he was always bad, he was at times so wonderful, but lately not so wonderful, and I don’t want to be married to someone who can say or talk to me so unlovingly. You have to do what you have to in your own time, I guess my time is now. Write back to me please.
Trisha
Hi Kim,
Your article on false pride has revealed what is probably behind every tantrum my husband throws or egotistical display of superiority. The issue that happened over Xmas was a situation where had my husband left his mobile phone turned on I would not have had to try and get help from other people.
I ran into trouble when I was driving alone on a lonely country road 3 days before Xmas late at night – and I tried to call my husband (for help) who was already at our holiday cottage waiting for me to arrive. However my husband habitually turns his mobile phone off each evening before he goes to bed and therefore I had no way of knowing whether he had just turned off his phone and was awake waiting for me to arrive, or whether he had gone to bed and fallen asleep assuming that I would soon arrive safely at our holiday cottage.
Unfortunately I had become stuck in a lonely isolated place in the country, a woman alone late at night in a car filled with Xmas presents, personal belongings, an unpowered car freezer filled with frozen food on a hot summer’s night, and also with a large dog on board (Golden Retriever – certainly no guard dog!).
With no room left to be able to sleep in my car if I had to apart from sitting up in the driver’s seat, I did what was the common sense thing to do – think about who I could call for help and make the mobile phone calls – and thank goodness there was phone signal available!
I was not angry or feeling reproachful toward my husband at all because I know he is a creature of habit (turning off his phone) but I had no way of knowing if he was awake or asleep! After having made several phone calls, including calling and texting my daughter and son-in-law (whose phones were apparently out of earshot at the cottage) I finally found a friend who could help and 45 minutes later help arrived.
However just as I finally got to the holiday cottage my husband had been awake after all and had just realised that I was more than an hour overdue from arriving, and expressing his concern he said to our son-in-law (who was also waiting for me to arrive) that I would have rung if I had got into trouble. My son-in-law asked him “Have you switched your mobile phone off as you normally do?”
My husband turned on his phone and returned a missed call from my son (although strangely not returning mine first as I was the missing person at the time). My son told his father of my plight and how he had got help for me. As I arrived my husband’s greeting was not nice – he verbally abused me for not having just waited for him to realise I was overdue and come to help me. Then when he found out how many people I had rung trying to get help he got even more angry and abusive (I recognised out of embarrassment, and perhaps anxiety for not wanting to be held accountable for the situation).
Instantly I realised the irrationality of what was happening at the time (that he was only concerned about what I had done “wrong”, and himself, and not my welfare). I tried to calm him down -saying that neither he nor anyone is in trouble here – that I am OK and everything is alright, that I haven’t done anything wrong and only done what was the common sense thing for me to do.
Well he did not stop ranting and raving at me, and I told him to stop yelling at me, that this episode is now history as far as I was concerned, and that I was not angry at him for not having his phone turned on, but he was making me angry now by carrying on like he was, and to “get over it!”.
At that point he shut up and went to bed still fuming and now sulking as well! I was to find out later that my son-in-law could hear everything that was going on and was just about to come out and intervene because my husband was so out of control with his verbal abuse and my son-in-law feared for my safety.
It is rare that my husband’s verbal abuse is exposed to anyone else (it usually happens behind closed doors), but not only did my son-in-law witness my husband’s irrational verbal abuse, but also the person who came to help me saw the first part of it. I was to find out a week later (when my husband revived the incident and starting tearing shreds off me again for the same thing) that he was so engrossed in his own emotions he wasn’t even aware that there were witnesses to his initial verbal abuse – he was horrified when he found out there was an audience apart from me!
The articles on verbal abuse and “false pride” that you have written about so far have been invaluable to me Kim – to reinforce the bigger picture as I saw it during those episodes over Xmas, and other non-related episodes that have happened since then. Putting a label on the behaviour helps me to decipher what to do about it as it is happening.
I think now that I have been doing what I should be doing – perhaps with fledgling wings – and I will hang in there a while longer – because even though I am enforcing tough love on my husband and he is sulking and silently threatening to leave – has hasn’t left yet! (Who will they turn to?) He still acts like he is superior at the same time as being the wounded bird.
His gaps and lies are critical – sometimes hard to expose because of the thick smoke screening though.
I get goose bumps every time I read your story about Steve in the Kitchen!
My husband “critiques” what is on the menu and how I am preparing the evening meal every night when he arrives home from work. I had given up cooking more than what I needed to years ago because it basically is only him and me now – and with his constant criticism – I think why subject myself to more criticism than is absolutely necessary? But I enjoy cooking – so stuff him – it is just politics after all!
I am going to cook more again – and donate it to my daughter, son-in-law and grandchildren if he doesn’t like or want it – at least I know they appreciate my cooking as much as me and everyone else except my husband! The same as with the “organisational skills” and “friends” – my husband constantly tries to organise me and tells me I have not got any friends. Neither accusation is true! But he is so strongly opinionated and convincing he has me doubting and constantly character analysing myself!
It seems that I am always feeling a little unprepared in many of these accusations – I should have known immediately that these accusations were unsubstantiated – that I need to get a stronger grip on who and what I am whenever challenged by him to cut his BS off immediately, and even whenever doubting myself in the moment to believe in myself anyway regardless of his opinions and accusations!
Thanks so much Kim – I am really looking forward to Part 3!
Cheers,
CD, Australia (The Generous Contributor!) LOL
Hi Kim and Steve
In light of the fact that some of us are regularly sending messages to each other on here in the bodies of our blogs but ever watchful of not giving too much personal info away, i.e., email addresses for instance, would it be possible do you think please for you to consider setting up a link where we can ‘chat’ in a private messaging room?
I am not suggesting that we should not still blog here as I do think there is invaluable info here with shared experiences for not only the existing bloggers but also anyone new joining the circle of friendship and support. But it would mean that more personal conversations could take place, also being able to see who was online at the same time as us, which would in essence provide us with someone to chat to when things are really bad and worrying us. It would be a lifeline I am sure for a lot of us. I have a group of very good friends I see and speak to regularly but unless someone lives with this in their primary relationships, no one really understands what it is you are so troubled about.
Another question for you too Kim and Steve, is where should I suggest a friend looks for help with regard to her grandson being what she now fears an N. He is 12 years old and verbally abusing everyone who is in his path. He is well behaved at school but shows absolutely no remorse or empathy she says for anyone, not his mum, not his granny .. nor his friends. She is very upset by his behaviour and realises that her daughter has not set firm enough boundaries and totally over indulged him, giving in for a quiet life she says. He is having horrendous temper tantrums too which he should have outgrown by now. He is seeing a therapist with his mother who also has had her own issues. But I am not sure this is helping at all. For many years he has been the only grandchild until nearly 2 years ago, and that too may have stemmed some angry and insecure feelings for him although he sees his baby cousin occasionally and apparently seems to be quite fond of him.
I told my friend that I would look up some info for her and send her the links as she is a very busy social worker. She is at her wits end with his behaviour and thought I may be able to help given that I have started to find out more about this very sad and debilitating personality disorder. I don’t want to send her down the garden path of all the links out there so one geared to children would be ideal if either of you OR any of the contributors here can offer some sound advice for my friend. They live in the UK.
Thanking you for all your help again and again….
Best regards
H
I have been divorced from my ex for about 10 years (I am very happily married today to my husband of 7 years). I still get so upset dealing with my ex because we have two children together, 16 and 14, both boys, and I still have to deal with my ex to some extent for them. My biggest concern and challange at this time is my 16 year old. I see so many of these npd trates in him, just like his dad. I gave up on my ex, I will not give up on my son but I do not know what to do with this child who I love dearly. It has been soooo hard for all of us but I get the brunt of it (hurt the ones you love the most?)Does anyone out there have any suggestions? Any help I have gotten my son, my ex has put down or discharged him from the program. I only have a year and a half and he will be 18! What can I do to save him???
I am getting pretty tired of being manipulated. My head is spinning. It also makes me feel a little sick. I have gotten many forms of the manipulation. I’m pooped!
Hi
I have been reading these posts for a couple of months now and have also downloaded most of Kim’s publications. What a life changing relevation it has been for me to finally understand my husband, and my own co-dependent behaviour.I want to thank everyone for sharing their stories, some of which I can relate to so well they have made me cry.
My mental health has spiralled downhill over the 21 years I have been married to the point where I have decided to take charge and concentrate on getting myself well and strong. I have taken six weeks off work and left my husband and two teenage boys for 2-3 weeks while I am taking a self-help course for depression (which I highly recommend – you can find it at http://www.uncommon-knowledge.co.uk Their information on depression is particularly clear and helpful) and also working my way through Kim and Steve’s stuff and reading “Disarming the Narcissist“ by Wendy Behary.
I am starting to think about how I will approach my husband when I return. We have been in contact on the phone and e-mail and his personality shines through these interactions! But it is a lot easier to remain calm and strong from a distance. I know that my real work begins when I go home. I wonder if anyone can give me some advice on whether or not to try to talk to him about Narcissism. I am pretty sure that it will not go down well and that he will completely dismiss the idea that there is anything “wrong” with him. Kim, I get the impression that Steve was formally diagnosed sometime? This must have helped.
I suspect I am better off practising all the techniques for dealing with a Narcissist first and continuing with my own self strengthening, but I wonder if there is also anything I can do to get him to start connecting with his inner self?
My other question is how much to tell my son’s who also struggle with their Dad’s behaviour. They are 16 and 17 years old and I feel they are pretty well grounded. I have invested a great deal of energy over the years trying to compensate for their father’s emotional immaturity. Now that I have answers I want to share my knowledge with them but also do not want to over burden them? I am thinking of writing something to them as their attention span with me at their age is very limited! And that way they could dip in and out of it when they want – perhaps at times when the are upset with his behaviour as I know they sometimes are? What do you think?
Once again thank you all for your support. It really has changed my life. I have not gone into any of the detail of my story but I can relate in particular to what CD and MR have posted, thank you, the toilet roll story keeps me strong through my husbands rage over petty things!
Sally
Hi Trisha – how are you? You have been in my thoughts a lot this past couple of days! I hope you are doing okay. Let me know please!
Lori – I know just how you feel, as we all do! I wish there was something I could say to you that would make sense. The only advice I can give you is to make yourself as strong as you can, find healing thought patterns for yourself, either through meditation, or through therapy if you can afford it, hypnotherapy works well as the messages to the unconscious mind will strengthen your resolve. The unconscious mind wants what we want, it will act on whatever you tell it to. Think of the old days when parents called children stupid and lazy.. very often those children grew up believing they were stupid and lazy. The condition of the mind is such that it will create whatever we tell it to. So change what you tell yourself, believe that you have a right to a better life. A life where you are understood and respected and loved for who you are, your right of passage, your birthright.
If you can buy the downloads or CD about codependency I can recommend it. I am a hypnotherapist too and (yes you would think I would have seen my N coming wouldn’t you?) I have to say that Sarah Chambers voice is calming and yet directive. You will gain a lot from listenig to her therapy session. I have also bought a book which although I know from my own training sessions, is teaching me nothing new than I have learned already, but somehow this is different and its really resonating and I am believing that not only my clients are entitled to a wholesome life but that I am also!
the book is ‘The Power of Your Subconscious Mind’ By Dr Joseph Murphy. It may work for you too. Belief in yourself is vital to your survival.
Hi Donna – I am sorry about your son, I know how difficult it must be for you. I posted here the other day about a narcissistic child of 12, whom my friend is worried sick about as this is her grandson. If you do find out anything about the sort of help that is out there, please post here and I will also for you if I find something.
Hi CD – how are you? I do hope you are alright! I feel for you so much and the storms you are riding through so admirably but at what oost to you? xox
Take care everyone and keep safe.
xxx
Hi Sally
I just wanted to say that you have chosen well with your depression course. Uncommon Knowledge are the one of the best in the business I have to say and I am speaking from personal experience. I trained with them 3 years ago and when they did actually have a clinic, I referred quite a few friends there and took my daughter to see one of my tutors there too for therapy. Let me know how you get on with that! I am sure you will do well and enjoy the benefits immensely!
Hope everyone else is okay! Trisha let me know you are okay please – worried about you!
xx
Hi CD,
Replying to the post on 25/1/2010.
Thanks for writing back to me. I am the same person who had posted to this site in Dec. I agree that its probably not a good idea to show him the article about tyranny. But I could leave the article regarding the “The Importance of Emotional Competency” open on the pc and may be he will browse through it. My husband is also extremely hypersensitive to any judgement or criticism towards him. Infact he immediately gets very defensive and angry. Sometimes if two people are laughing and talking in the corner of a room he thinks they are laughing at him!. He also does not believe much in psychology. At one time he promises me that he will go for anger management counselling but the next minute he says its all crap and these things don’t help and even discourages me from going to the counsellor. He has not had any tantrums in last few days. I had been so stressed and depressed with things going on in my life but now I have learnt to self sooth. I am now going to try to have some “me” time and focus on getting better. Some days I am full of energy and ready to take on anything that comes my way. But then there are days when I feel emotionally and physically so drained and weak and that’s when even I question myself if I have the strength to go on . I have been nice to him greet him lovingly (like Kim mentions in her book). But I sometimes feel I cant get through to him. He shows as if it doesn’t really matter. I wonder if this is his smoke screen and he doesn’t want me to know what he is really feeling when I am nice and polite to him. I am planning on buying these books too for my own benefit. My husband is not into reading books. So I am not sure to even bother to read it. He feels he would rather watch a movie than read a book. Actually thinking about this are there any movies relating to narcissistic behaviour? .
How are things going at your side? keep me posted
Cheers
S
I am being manipulated. Every day it is a different story. A different demeanor. It is pretty horrible. Blech!
I find in reading all about this disease that not only does my wife fit many of the areas discussed…but I to have issues in many of the areas discussed.
I am trying to STOP my areas which I know only escalate the fights and bring the majority of all problems to be labeled MY FAULT. BY speaking softly and not addressing every comment…complaint…put down or challenge and choosing my respomses I feel less hurt and can stay alittle more forcused on the hopeful outcome of the discussion. By not challenging every statement I feel my wife cannot respond and also that her initial statement was to take the discussion to a place where she is in control and I am just defending myself…probably nothing to do with the original issue.
The anger is severe and the blaming is constant…and seems to be strong and then in alittle while(hours or days) subsides and thing s contnue on.
I cannot say I haven’t been abusive(physically in the past and at times continue the verbal harrassment
to this day) and once it starts it is very hard to stop(verbal).
I need to know what steps to take to gain back my personal power and knowning of self worth and value. I feel very unsure of myself and have alot of diffuliculty moving forward for fear of failure and truly being alone(parents deceased…only step children fully grown…a close
friend and 57 years old).
I believe that with changes (both of us together) our lives can be better and get to a place where peace is constant.
I also need to know the steps to stop the engagement of conflicts and how to difuse some of the issues I am blamed for.
How can I not accept the blame without conflict or rebuttle that is truly is my fault. If she willnot listen to my response and plays the superior role how do I come out without cuts and bruises AND with some sort of peace(without being told I am controling?
Is there anyone out there who can give me some help and answers that might work
thanks
Hi H
Thank you for your validation of Uncommon Knowledge. I came across them searching on the internet and I am impressed with their self help programme. So far it is certainly helping me. But it is reassuring to hear your view of them, i will keep you posted. I agree with you that it would be good to be able to chat with people sometimes. I have some great friends but no one who really understands what we are all going through.
Sally
Hi Kim,
Congratulations again on your article Verbal Abuse 3. This is yet another great article from your hard won experience regarding your self-growth and healing your marriage.
All 3 articles leave me feeling assured that I have got somewhat of a grip on matters, but also clarifies the areas I still need to work on. These 3 articles cast so much light on how to deal with negative behaviour that I consider them a must for everyone to read.
Just one thing though, my husband is either in true denial about his abusive and/or negative ways, or denies it out of not wanting to acknowledge it or take responsibility for it (in other words he lies about it to keep from facing the truth).
My husband claims abuse is only when you hit someone – that yelling at, insulting or putting down another person is not abuse – maybe there are various levels of this that are not abuse? I wonder how many people out there like me are not sure where the line gets drawn – what constitutes abuse. Some may not know what the many different forms of abuse are – from physical abuse through to financial abuse? Maybe this is another topic of discussion to educate people on – to help them define healthy boundaries?
I feel I have become somewhat de-sensitised over the years to the abuse – I don’t know whether I am tough or weak! I know I have had to be tougher than ever in recent times to let the abuse “go over my head” and try to deal with the child in my husband who is acting out – it is hard work – but I figure I have got nothing to lose and everything to gain in getting tough, with or without him in my life. Where my husband would tantrum and storm out when confronted – now when he starts to do this, he stops himself right away because he knows I won’t bend to his tantrums anymore.
He opened up in front of a couple of friends and myself two days ago how much he hated how his father treated him as a child. He must trust us more now to start talking about it. But then the next night he was back to being the “entitled one” and being superior and abusive toward me! He is a Jeckyll and Hyde and I wish I could figure out who is boosting his ego that he changes his attitude so radically towards me. I still wonder if it is me not handling things in the best way, but at the same time he seems to now like my tough love, almost seeking it out by testing it over and over.
I have got to dig deeper with the false pride and support him with his gaps plus work on myself at the same time! So much to do and it takes so much time, patience, compassion and understanding!
It is hard to tell who the genuine person is sometimes. I even wonder if he was really just boosting his ego by looking for sympathy regarding his childhood – but then I dismiss that because I know it was bad. I didn’t know him or his family in the first 17 years of his life, but I was on the scene during the next 13 years of his life until his father died and I know how his father treated him then – it was awful! I can only listen to what he and his late mother told me regarding his childhood relationship with his father.
I know this situation is at great cost to me in one respect, but on the other hand it has been a character building experience – as I see things much more differently now. I realised a long time ago that there is a positive in every negative – it may just take some contemplation to reveal the positive, but it is worth it.
CD, Australia.
Hi CD,
I have been so busy, I was just lucky to catch this post. I haven’t had time to read any blog comments in the past week or so. I will get on top of it however and from your inspiration Steve and I will be doing a new audio product as soon as I can get to it.
You really do sound like you are probably making more progress than you might realize. He does like the tough love I am sure, good work and yes I certainly think it character building!
When you asked who is boosting his ego I think you are on the right track there too. It may not be someone who is doing that overtly, it may be someone who he feels he can’t show his vulnerability to and has to keep up the lie with. With Steve it was his social worker (who he had told I was tyrant etc.) and when I enlightened her that this was not the truth Steve was so relieved it was a major turning point.
As for what constitutes abuse that is a good question. I think anything that leaves you feel threatened and where you feel hurt or humiliated and that your boundaries have been crossed. I don’t worry so much about labeling it. It is more a matter of learning how to command respect and be treated well and not poorly.
Bravo on not tolerating his tantrums and not engaging in the arguments. Keep saying his name warmly and showing that you do accept him (just not the bad behaviour) and you may have a breakthrough with him deciding to lower his defenses. Something is going to shift I would guess, because he must be beginning to see how foolish and immature his behaviour is becoming compared to the new strong you!
Hang in there!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi John,
Kim’s story in Verbal Abuse 3 (www.kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com) about how she stuttered and stammered when she was in the circle of identity was exactly how I felt at the very beginning of my voyage of self-discovery.
I did not know what or who I was anymore! I had lost sight of my core values and beliefs, what I enjoyed doing in life, and the time had come for me to surrender to the situation and get real help and understanding – and I first found that in Al-Anon.
Both my husband and I were behaving extremely immaturely, and when I started to “grow” in Al-Anon, and with each change in me, the situation got worse for a while until my husband felt “safe” with those changes in me. Nevertheless I had to emotionally and mentally grow up for my own sake, and the sake of my family, and learn to deal with the BS at the same time. I took a form of mental and emotional “time-out” to re-focus on myself while still living with my husband – it was difficult – and I had to let a lot of stuff go through to the keeper until I got my emotions and thinking sorted out with lots of enlightenment into the behaviour and suffering associated with my husband’s alcoholism.
I would never have thought that he was “suffering” – but he does suffer tremendous guilt and an extremely low self-esteem hidden behind a smoke screen of abuse. He has even admitted to feeling guilty about many things lately.
One of the greatest and best lessons I had to learn was that I cannot change another person – that I can only change myself. The extension of that philosophy is not to change myself in order to change someone else, but to turn my attention onto myself – to find my identity – who I am and what I want for myself. This journey of self-discovery and building a solid identity (which I think is a never ending journey) has been so personally empowering and exciting – even when dealing with character traits I don’t like in myself – but I still love and accept myself now for all my strengths and weaknesses – which I did not when I first started this journey. This is important to do to be able to regularly emotionally detach from the BS and deflect the criticisms, put downs and insults.
I started to re-discover my personal identity by reflecting on what I liked to do as a child and young adult, my passions and my dreams in my pre-codependency days.
I then figured out which ones I could do as a much older person and would enjoy doing again. I started to play squash again, joined Rotary International, and returned to College to study and achieve my Diploma in a field I am passionate about – which is Architecture. I also love to swim and to fish, and being with people. This was the beginning of taking my focus off my husband and starting to live my own life. I haven’t been able to do much in recent years due to a physical disability – but I am starting to find out what I can and would like to do instead.
Searching out my core values and beliefs ran side by side with “getting a life” that I have outlined above.
It is OK to be different to your partner, and where there is conflict it is also OK to respect each others opinion while remembering that there is always my opinion, his opinion and the right opinion – that neither of us may be right. What is more important – to be right? or to be happy?
When my husband is behaving like he is superior to me I really know now “that he is not better than me” and as the Dalai Lama says – “We are all the same” – in other words we are all human beings and entitled to be imperfect and individual. I have to take care not to behave like I am superior to him – but only to quietly, clearly and with courage and conviction stand up for what is lawfully and morally acceptable, and to take the appropriate action against unacceptable behaviour.
Regarding “blame” – getting someone who is narcissistic to accept blame when they are at fault is a battle that you probably won’t win – simply because they can be so skilful at dodging accountability using all sorts of emotional tools such as accusations, insults, put-downs, abuse, blame shifting, distractions, disappearance, sulking, and so on.
In times of conflict and blame games, it is always important to remember “How important is it?” and if it is worth continuing a disagreement, and if and when an impasse is reached, then “agree to disagree” -therefore each of one maintains their dignity and viewpoint at that time. Sometimes it is good to repeat back what your partner is saying so they know you have heard their side and to tell them you will take some time to consider their viewpoint. You are then neither agreeing or disagreeing, defending or giving in, but each one can walk away in a form of truce.
Good luck and stay cool and in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi everyone
I wish there was some private space we could chat on here because I am now having to be very aware of what I am personally expressing for fear of being sprung as it is possible my ex N (!!!) may eventually find this place. It ended recently with him calling the final shots, just as had been recommended. However, we did agree to stay friends, although we all know how problematic that can be too, but I was honestly and truly prepared and more than willing to be there for him as a friend and to let him be the friend that I believed he could be if he really put his mind to it!
He had to remind me though that it had not worked for various reasons (his reasons of course!!) and I did not agree with him about this but said that we had to agree to differ, this has always been the way I have conducted myself in all my relationships with my children, work colleagues, friends and even my parents as I matured. I have not ever considered that only my opinion counts, I have always been ready to listen and willing to change my thoughts if someone came up with a case that perhaps swayed my thinking to a more sensible or rational belief.
Yet I found this incredibly difficult if not absolutely impossible with him as he would refuse to listen to me, I would see his eyes glaze over and you could almost ‘see’ his brain switching off and the rolling of the eyes or raised eyebrows,the curl of his mouth, the snide expression, the walking away from me all sweeping out in front of me, followed then by the stonewalling, until of course, I ‘came to my senses’ and opened up the doorway for him to stroll back through, without having to apologise or be accountable in any way. I did this and I am sure you all do it too, just to keep the peace and get some sense of normality back into the day.
Sorry I digress – So there we were, ending on a relatively good note (if there is such a thing) and then I made an ALMIGHTY ERROR OF JUDGEMENT and am now being severely punished as he has shut down on me completely, he has cut me off from his life in every way possible.
I realise now, that I was lulled into a sense of false security, given that he seemed fairly responsive to the issues I had raised regarding the problems we had encountered in our relationship which we had just finished discussing. His mood changed instantly, yet he did not speak, although when I asked him if anything I was saying made sense, he said he did not know .. rather than just ‘no’, which to be fair, I had expected him to declare.
The conversation, however, came to a very abrupt end with me wishing him well and to take care but his hostility was evident towards me. He has not only shut me out but also mutual friends and my family. This upset and puzzled them as they are completely innocent in all this. However, I do know why he has done this, I have rumbled him and he is clearly afraid I will alert someone to his problem.
We have all been cast out, like broken toys, we have fulfilled our uses and cease to exist in his world without a thought for what any of us shared together in the past.
At some level, I do truly believe, that he knew exactly what I was talking about. I also know that he will be out there now seeking a new NS to take my place. I hope he finds somewhere inside himself to change before he meets anyone else, I do not want another woman going through what I did in loving him. Alas, I think this is highly unlikely.
How do I feel now a few days on? Well I know I feel sad, and I also feel somewhat bereft, it is like he has literally just dropped dead and his body has disappeared, because his personal belongings are all here but he is not! At some point of course, he has to contact me to collect these and I have placed a time limit on this.
Yet, I also KNOW that I am going to be in a better place soon as I have been very troubled, distraught and confused over the past year, having dealt with some tremendous blows to my self confidence and self esteem, I have been hurt beyond all imaginings with his intentionally cruel criticisms and also his sick games. He once criticised me for being defensive when I was being criticised by him! I picked him up on this paradox, but he could not understand at all what I meant by that, he felt he had EVERY justifcation WHENEVER he CHOSE, to be as critical and judgemental as he WISHED to be of me, and any defensiveness or upset on my part was just seen as a weakness and another way to manipulate and control me. With what I have learned here, I can now recognise that. This is how my co-dependence was being built and maintained.
Yes of course I miss him.. and there is a part of me that will always love that man I fell in love with, because he is lost to me forever. I know that he will not return, I worked really hard to get the old him back, not realising at the time exactly what I was up against.
I still take my hat off to you Kim and Steve and to CD, Lori, Trisha and so many others here who have really worked so hard at rebuilding your lives, your marriages and relationships. In some ways, you know, I truly envy you. You have the opportunity to possibly beat this beast, not into submission, god forbid, that would not be right or ethical to command such power over another human being, even a narcissist! But to be able to feel that you are actively working for the good of your marriages. I did not have that opportunity, given that we did not live together and that has made me feel sad in so many respects.
I know though in time, I will be okay, I am a survivor and in fact, I intend to be better than okay! I am already taking slightly bigger baby steps than when I began this journey a month ago so I can see the grieving and subsequent healing taking place bit by bit as I learn to accept I have loved and lost ‘him’ to ‘himself’.
I am listening and reading the Co-dependence package I downloaded here and am really becoming aware of the re-rooting taking place as I find my inner sanctum once again.
In early January, when I discovered this site and the support and love that you all transcended, not only to me, but for ALL of the ‘members’ out there who are all going through some very challenging times, I can only humbly express a VERY BIG THANK YOU TO YOU ALL who have shared your stories giving me hope and comfort or who have given me sound advice to guide me through the dark days.
So on that note, I will still be here, either to support you or come back for advice I am sure as the hours and days progress into weeks and months, I will need it again as I know there is a measure of healing and rebirth to take place within. One of the main ways I am healing is that I have taken back my life… I had not realised how much of this was all centred around him or how much of my ‘POWER’ I had literally given away.
Love and light to you all
HM
PS to that last correspondence – I am also taking Rescue Remedy! Lots of it!
x
cd,
thanks for the note…its good to know others are in the same situation.
I want to get enough strenght to be able to know when to stand up and when to just let things pass by. I notice by responding to the put-downs…threats…and hurtful statements(which have the response that they are FACTS) I only dig a larger hole…one I eventually cannot get out of.
BY just listening I am acused of ignoring her and not giving her any answers. A lose-lose situation.
The threats get bigger with any rebuttal and the hurtful statements hit harder and harder. I cannot get my point across and cannot have her see any possible errors on her side. From here the battle escalates by her defending EVERY action she makes and the nerve of me to even control and question her actions.
I want to be able to leave believing that this whole 30 years is not my entire fault and there was some love and goood times to be had.
MY heart hurts so badly and its very difficult to accept that her issues are just that.
help
Hi HM,
I feel for you, you must be experiencing a lot of mixed emotions. Maybe it is better for you both not to have contact for a while “to let the dust settle” and to prepare yourself for the next possible encounter.
Whatever you had said to him where you now believe you were lulled into a false sense of security (believing that you could discuss something as emotionally mature adults??) obviously he was not receptive.
He may need time now to chew over what you have said, deal with it one way or the other, or continue to deal with it by disappearance.
It takes a good level of emotional and mental maturity to remain undisturbed by the viewpoints of others.
It takes even more maturity to consider the merits of the viewpoints of others in an unbiased and non-egotistical way, and then after taking every thing into account – arriving at an unchanged or new personal point of view whilst remembering that it is possible not to see or know ALL the facts right at that point in time.
Keep going learning as much as you can about narcissism and co-dependency – based on personal experience it is well worth the time and effort.
“Maturity is the capacity to withstand ego-destroying experiences, and not lose one’s perspective in the ego-building experiences.”
Robert K. Greenleaf
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
PS: MR, S, Lori, Sally, Donna, Trisha and others – how are you all going? Hope you can stay in touch too – we all learn so much from each other!
Hi John,
Things sound really rough for you at the moment. Have you purchased Kim and Steve’s “Back From The Looking Glass” and workbooks yet? Many people here have found it invaluable to limit the abuse even in highly abusive relationships. There is a lot of help available through Kim and Steve’s program and the people who post here.
I would like to give you a “thought” to silently think whenever your wife is trying to provoke or sustain a fight or being abusive:
“Whatever I am, or whatever you think I am, does not excuse your abusive behaviour right now.”
You can do this while still listening to her of course – and as you gain confidence and courage – and whenever you feel uncomfortable or threatened by her behaviour use some responses like:
“I don’t like where this is conversation is going, we have been down this road before, and I don’t want to go there again because right now I am going to work/sleep/take a shower/etc.”
“I hear what you are saying and right now we need to take time out to think about things and we will discuss it again later after we both have calmed down.”
“Stop criticizing me!”
“I can see why you would think I am ignoring you, but right now I don’t know what to do or say when you are so angry at me. I need to go for a walk/cycle/drive for ? minutes/ ? hour(s) to calm down.”
After each of these type of statements make sure you follow though with self-soothing or do what you need to or should be doing.
While your wife is insulting you, putting you down and emotionally beating up on you she is focused (perhaps unconsciously) on making you to blame for all of her problems and difficulties her life and her marriage, instead of realising and/or acknowledging it is most likely her own self-destructive ways and shortcomings that are her biggest obstacles to herself.
There could be many reasons for her not facing her own difficulties/shortcomings some of which may include a low self-esteem, self-hate, inadequacies, addiction(s), guilt, self-pity, resentment, sleep deprivation, history of a dysfunctional family, lack of manners and/or communication skills (throws tantrums?), lack of lifestyle balance (work versus play), hormone imbalance or other health problems, lack of a good diet, exercise and the good oils (Omegas 3 & 6) and so on.
Your wife probably knows that she is not in a very good place, but doesn’t know how to climb out of the hole she is digging deeper and deeper for herself – it is much easier to blame you and to see your “faults” than for her to look at her own, and to pull you down into the deep, dark hole with her.
Once I understood what struggles my husband may be having I was able to (little by little) own my own difficulties, and recognise what was actually my husband’s own difficulties even if he did not want to own them. In so doing I was then able to apply to my life and relationship the full strength of the Serenity Prayer:
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.”
It is important to remember though that “things” are not “people”. The Serenity Prayer is a great way to climb out of the “hole” by calming and/or inspiring yourself in times of despair, anger, hopelessness, complacency, etc. – it helps you to become centred again and focused on your life and goals. As time goes by, and you reclaim your own identity, you will begin to learn to love and accept yourself again and to command respect.
No-one can know you as well as you can know yourself – and that is not always a quick or easy task – and it is your obligation and your right only to define your authentic self.
If you already have Kim & Steve’s BFTLG and workbooks and are trying to implement the strategies, then it pays to remember that things are very likely to get worse for a while before they get better.I believe this is due to what we used to call in Al-Anon as “Excited Misery” and “Stinking Thinking”.
When our relationships end up in such a bad place we may have become so “addicted” to dysfunction and anger that when we look for and have the good fortune to find real help (like Kim and Steve’s program) and start making the necessary changes to our attitudes and strategies – our partner will still be caught up in the old behaviour patterns, and will attempt to “keep you in there” out of habit, bad attitudes and poor relationship skills.
This may continue for some time until your loved one learns to feel safe with the new dynamic in your relationship, and it also may re-surface from time to time as you continue to make changes to yourself. She may even sense that she is losing you because you have risen to a higher level of emotional maturity and calmness than hers – so where you are more in fear of losing your wife and your marriage at the moment – the tide can turn with changed attitudes and truck loads of patience, understanding and self-soothing. Take heart though – it will get easier after a while – and the rewards are great and character building!
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD
Thank you so much for your very supportive and empathic post concerning my recent relationship break up. You are so right about the mix of emotions! The 1st few days I felt bereft, all I could think of were the good times we had had, however, since a few days ago, I have felt very differently about it all. I have compartmentalised my feelings about him in a very rational way I feel and whilst have remembered the good times have also been remembering the not so nice times with him which sadly had become far more frequent than the pleasurable times. Those memories of his abuse have kept me on the straight and narrow regarding feeling safe now.
He has been in touch and of course blames me for his blocking all contact from me, well we all knew that was going to be the case didn’t we? He told me that I should have demonstrated ‘dignified silence’ after it was decided to end it and not contacted him. Although I replied about his belongings and when he could pick them up, I have not reacted at all to any of the negative comments and guilt transferences that he made to me. This is what he expected I am sure, for me to retaliate as I have done in the past when feeling the necessity to defend myself from his verbal attacks and constant criticisms of my every being. I have stepped way back and now feel able to look at things from a new perspective. I have been able to see so much more than I saw before.
I have to share that it feels ultimately a calmer place inside my mind and body this past 3 days and I really feel as though I have broken ground at last with regards to understanding how I fell in love with hiim and how I ‘allowed’ him to continue to behave badly whilst always finding it in my heart to forgive him time and time again, only to be insulted even more so as I became weaker in his eyes and less attractive. I can see with so much more clarity now.
I have been ill for weeks with a virus I have not been able to shift and I know that the reason this bug took a hold like it has, is because my immune system has suffered a great blow too just as my self esteem, self confidence and happiness were also taking regular blows from this man. The immune system, under attack from stress cannot cope and the resultant issues will be resistant viruses, headaches, IBS, joint pains, back pain….emotional eating etc etc…..
The resources for this recovery which I have made and is still a work in progress, came from reading Back from the Looking Glass and your heartfelt recommendation CD, to read that and I am glad I listened to you and did. I also downloaded the Co-dependency package and have found that invaluable too. Again too, CD, from your recommendation on the Wendy Bahary’s book Disarming the Narcissist, I have also learned much. Another book I would like to recommend on the subject is ‘Why is always about you? The 7 Deadly Sins of Narcissism’.
So thank you again CD for your infinite sense of wisdom and reality.
John – I am so very sorry that you are in such pain and we all know what you have been through and are going through and the fear in your heart for what lies in the future.
I really felt for you when I read your post and have thought about you a lot. We all need a fair amount of support here and it seems crazy to think we can get that level of support from a few post its on a site but do not underestimate the power of this site of Kim and Steve’s. There is so much love and support here we all radiate outwards to each other, I am sure you are already aware of that.
Follow CD’s advice, she recommended to me that I read the e book, Back from the Looking Glass and various other books and I took her advice and read them and the healing began, from the inside out. Make sure you get plenty of restorative sleep especially as you are low at the moment, this is essential to keeping you emotionally stable, not enough sleep will make you susceptible to emotional swings and you will find it harder to bounce off the hurtful comments from your wife. Get some exercise as its the quickest route to feeling better when you are depressed with all that life is dishing out. Do you also know of EFT? I have found it has really helped me a lot this last week. I also have been using Rescue Remedy, at least 4 times daily.. 4 drops under my tongue.
Trisha – not seen you posting for a while, hope you are okay! Come in and let us know.
Hope all of you are doing okay!
Blessings
xx
Does a co-dependent ever give up on the relationship without making a conscious effort to do so, or do they usually stay with their N partner for an extended period of time?
I know that’s like asking “how long is a piece of string”, but I was curious as to whether a co-dependent eventually realizes that they have to make the first move in bettering their relationship.
Hi HM,
Its been along time sine I have talked to you, again I wish we could talk in person. I have led and interesting time lately. I broke off the relaionship with my partner, I wrote a letter and basically I told him we were done. I know thi is against what we are supposed to do but I guess I am a rebel. I even talked to him on the phone afterwards to clear up any thing he may have. I told him never to call me, forget me and that he earned what happended to him, I kicked him to the curb. Well he did respect what I said and did not call. It took about 4 days and he did call. I was very firm and told him no more. I did give him conditions though if it was ever to work with me. Now he is in counseling and on medication and has found the Lord. He seems to be a different person. I have gone very s l o w with him, I would not allow him the same privileges that he used to have such as coming over every night, taking me for granted and so forth. It seems that I have a new person on my hands. His guidance is coming from his belief in God and doing the right thing. So far so good. Like I said he is on medication and seeing someone for counsel. I don’t know, to be honest I see him 3 times a week rather than the 7 of before, he treats me nicer than I have ever been treated by him as well as my daughter, he seems to be thougtful. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop. I hope this doesn’t blow up in my face, if it does I know what I have to do, start all over and this time no matter what he says or does it is done!!!! I did it once and to be honest it felt so good. For a change I was the one finding fault, and not being the happy one. I gave him what he gave me, and I dumped him on top of that. The only way I got through that was thining that he earned it and he did. I just hope he stays the same, I have no guarantees, but I do know I don’t want any more bad behavior and I will not take any for any reason. You get what you sow. What do you think? Is this just the good time? I hope not for his sake because I do feel I am a different person. Hang in there HM, I wihs I could give you a hug, in fact we all need a good hug.
Talk to me soon,
Trisa.
Hi Trisha
I am here! I was hoping you were okay, I sensed you were back together with your BF and taking time to sort it out in your head. I am happy for you that you are back on track with him and that he seems to have found a means of recovery too.
Take care of yourself first and foremost and continue to read up on the subject to learn how to protect yourself and how to dissarm him should there be a repeat of his past behaviours. Take note of what CD says, she has a good grip on the whole subject! Have you read downloaded the Co-dependency Package yet? I can give it a good review. Even after the 1st time I listened to Sarah Chambers, I felt an instant lift of my spirit to a more awakened and enlightened understanding.
You and your daughter are the most important people in this equation and you can only look out for you and she, not for him, he has to take responsibility for his life and his happiness. I cannot hide the fact though, that I am concerned for you, I hope that this does not come back to bite you in some way.
If he has truly found God and this is giving him comfort then fine, as long as its not a means of covering up or masking your eyes from seeing the real situation. Please take care!
Prayer is a means of talking to the unconscious mind, our mind will create what we tell it to as the unconscious mind wants to be one with us (and our conscious mind). This is followed through in Dr Joseph Murphy’s book, The Power of the Subconscious Mind, which I am presently reading. Or also in Gary Zukav’s book ‘The Seat of the Soul’ another good read.
If in his prayers he is asking for help to be whole and good and kind then who knows, with your love guiding him, he may well become a better person and free himself of his N tendencies. Be aware that is all, do not become complacent that he is changed already, he has a lot of work to do and so do you in rebuilding your relationship and in empowering yourself, you do sound more grounded now though, I must say! xx
My ex and I broke up last year for a few weeks, got back together and he was better for a while, unfortunately he clearly decided that I was not worth the effort and started to withdraw again and preferring instead to spend his time in the company of others, particularly females he works with. I think he found my new rules about what I was willing to tolerate in him, not to his liking.
It has been nearly 2 weeks now and I feel so much better, I feel calmer and my path is clear again, whereas before the road ahead was something that was blcoked from my vision. All I could feel was pain and sadness at how he was treating me and treating our relationship. Every attempt was thwarted to find the man I had once known in him. I started to withdraw from my social circles because I found the whole thing just too much to cope with……that is so not me! I was once known as the life and soul of the party, I had started to become quite reclusive and I recall once trying to explain things to him about how I was feeling and that this side of me was beginning to worry me… of course his reply to that which was not even an accusation to him, was one of “well you can’t blame that on me!” I had not said a word..but we know that this is how an N usually responds, it is always, always going to be someone else’s fault and not ever theirs. I think on that day, something started to shut down inside and the last few weeks of some appalling behaviour of his had really finished me off, they were the final straws.
I have no regrets that it is over and none that it started, I do not believe that having regrets ever does any of us any good. I met him, I fell in love with him and we parted…end of story and another chapter of my life is here, it is all part of the same book however and has proven to be a HUGE learning curve for me. I thought I had learned it 11 years ago when I split up from my husband, for the same behaviour. I am sure that if I had known then what I had been dealing with, there would not have been another N in my life. At the 1st sign of trouble, the door would have been shown for them to leave.
I am seeing him soon for the collection of his ‘stuff’ from my home, I am not particularly looking forward to it I must admit, not because I am afraid of him and not because I am worried that he may try and creep back into my life, or that I will weaken when seeing him. I know I won’t. I simply do not want to expend any more energy on him being at the forefront of all that I do, as I have done for 2 years! I will be polite and keep it short and to the point, there is no point in prolonging anything. He thinks we are still friends, however, I am not entirely sure that I want to be the sort of friend that he is thinking I will be. A friend that he can call upon for a favour or to meet up with him when it suits him because he has not got anything better to do. I know this may sound harsh to some of you out there, but I gave so much of myself. Too much. I have taken back my power in the last couple of months although it has been a slow process and is still a work in progress. I know that the abuse I received at his hands is not going to disappear overnight but I am taking bigger steps forward now to my recovery.
His mother called me last week and wanted to lay some blame, he had asked me not to tell her the truth about anything to do with why we broke up, it was tempting I have to say when she was suggesting that it was because of me. I just drew a short breath in, held it for a moment and then breathing out slowly let her think whatever floats her boat. I know what I know and I do not need anyone else now to satisfy me that I have made the right decision in ending it. I made a decision based on what I also know about her, she is the reason he is the way he is, she is THE N in HIS life. She is the woman who raised him, indulged his every whim and thought of herself first and foremost and still does, she has no genuine empathy or compassion for anyone except herself. It is always about her, just as it is always about him. It is a strange relationship he has with her, he loathes her, he complains about her being self absorbed, selfish, thoughtless, tactless, cruel, that she lies about her health to gain sympathy, and yet he sees none of these traits in himself at all.
I am thankful for having had an upbringing where my parents laid firm boundaries down for my behaviour and taught me right from wrong and taught me the important lesson of being accountable and responsible for your own actions. How to say sorry and make amends and give unconditional love. I did lock horns with my parents some times as most children do, we always found a way out of it with love and understanding of what each of us were trying to convey, a compromise would be sought, sometimes I was grounded though as my parents rules were paramount over mine.
Whereas he missed out on those important lessons of life and that is very sad.
Whatever any of you decide to do, make sure that you really are doing what is right for each and every one of you in terms of your emotional and physical health. The other decisions you may need or wish to make will follow when you are in a good and balanced place in your mind.
Life is too short to be unhappy. Take charge of your life, it is one lifetime you have to think about – THIS LIFE NOW!
My friends are commenting on the fact that the old me is returning .. I am slowly emerging from my ‘hiding place’ and shining once more. I feel free for the first time in such a long long time. I can wholeheartedly recommend the feeling! It feels akin to a rebirth. However, please note that this tact of ending it has worked for me, it may not be right for you Trisha or any of you out there. I just have this amazing feeling of peace inside me now and I want to share it with you all.
I have learned so much about myself in this journey to where I am now. I found out about what was making me a co-dependent here on this site through support, advice and the friendship connections that we all share here with each other and most importantly the one thing that binds us all, is that we all have true and sincere EMPATHY for each other.
I wish too Trisha I could give you a hug, we do all need one!
Blessing you all and sending one big virtual hug
Love and Light for all our journeys
HM
cd & hm
thanks for the notes…as always very helpful
I want to share a short tale with you that just happened…the other night I had a situation where out of nowhere we had a very loud discussion regarding a very simlpe opinion of mine…wow the quickness and volume of the situation was like lighting a match. Caught off guard I retreated to a neutral spot and did not respond to all the things being said to me and the tone of the statements. The night was finished in silence, The next day I left for work w/o speaking and in the afternoon I rec’d a phone call in which I heard a apology for the way the night before was handled and a statement that she should have handled the issue in a better way. I did not ask what the beter way was thinking its better to leave things without another issue.
I bring thsi up because I was proud of myself for not getting caught up in her issues and therefor DID NOT have the problem become mine. I was pleased with the phone call but it did not mean as much to me as the progress that I felt I had achieved in handling the situation. I know its only one step BUT what a step it is. I will continue to work on MYSELF for that is the only place where change can be counted on…its my life at stake not hers and as soonas that is realized things take a turn for the better. YOu cannot yor strenght thru someone else unless you accetpt that that strenght can be false and taken away at any time by the other person.
Once youseperate yourself enough from the other person you can see a little clearer what needs to be done.
Its not fixed…its justnot as broken!
will talk again…
peace
john
I decided 6 months ago to leave my narcissist husband because I could no longer take the verbal/emotional abuse and being blamed for EVERYTHING in our relationship. Even though we were separated I did everything I could to try to make the relationship work. He started to date other people even though he was telling me he did not want a divorce (I believe for financial reasons). Yet after a few months he asked me to move back in and because he had shown no commitment to working on our marriage, I said no. A week ago I was told by him not to contact him anymore and that I do not live at my house anymore and should not ever be there (even though I have been giving him money) because I play “mind games” with him (ha!). I decided now that I do want a divorce because I can’t take the devaluation and put-downs any longer. My question is: I have so many belongings in that house that I want to retrieve, we need to make financial decisions but he will not talk to me and I do not want to contact him. I am afraid that if he finds out I get a lawyer, he will destroy my property and my finances. Does anybody have any experience in dealing with this? Do I sneak in and remove my belongings and just leave divorce papers? How do you tell someone like this that you want a divorce without facing the horrible abuse that I know will follow? Thank you all so much, it is nice to know that I’m not alone.
a current situation in my life:
The N of my past is a minister and has a website that she started back when we were in ministry together.
Recently, I decided to venture onto it, hoping that maybe God had changed her heart in some way and that she was doing good for people.
The endearing comments that I put on the site 5 years ago were still on it. I did not feel good about this person anymore and I did NOT want my name or comments looking like I was in support of her, so I decided to have the comments removed.
First I contacted the site owner, not realizing it was one of her main past goonies. When I looked at the site again, the comments seemed to still be on there. So, I wrote to the N and asked her to remove them. She assured me they had been removed.
Next, goonie emails me, calls me a “stalker and jilted lesbian lover, tells me she is considering putting the comments back on there and I’d better leave her alone before she “changes her mind” and does that.
I thanked them for removing my comments and I’m leaving it at that, but needless to say I DESPISE the feeling of being “controlled” by these people.
Dear Kim;
Hello, and how are you. Me. I am fine. Sorta’.
I am going through a transition period in my personal
life and stumbled; as it were early this morning upon the NPD SITE that you have posted on the internet.
I am of Indiginous First-Nations (Indian) of Canada.
Raised in a Foster-Home.
One (First) failed-marriage; one disastrous open marriage. And now..,my last marriage all but completely ruined. Perhaps all is lost; I am not sure anymore, Kim.(?)
There is for me at this juncture; however, a light at the end of the tunnel; as it were. And the oncoming light at the end of the tunnel is your web-site……,NOT a “freight train”! Which is just
another way of saying that perhahps there is hope for me after all. In any event, I will definately
avail myself of this wonderful opportunity to-at the
very least; try and implement these useful “Online
Tools”. So that over time, I may be able to live out
my remaining years here on earth..,
in Peace and Co-existence.
Thank-you so much to you and your wonderful partner,
Steve. You undoubtedly are Champions of a Great
Cause more than you will ever know!
Your newly-acquired friend……….,Airfeather.
Hi everyone
How are you all doing?
KL – I am not sure what you should do regarding your belongings as such and it does depend too I think where you live. For instance here in this country (UK) I could not stop my husband coming in to the house without my permission, that is, until I commenced divorce proceedings. We had separated for a few months before I started. It used to infuriate me though that he used to use his key to come in and even walking upstairs uninvited to knock on the children’s doors when he came to see them! I once came out of the bathroom, half naked and he was at the top of the stairs, it really freaked me out. He used to come and take pictures off the walls and all manner of things that he considered he liked or that were his, even when they were things I had purchased in our marriage. So it is not something I imagine your ex will be very pleased about if you do go in to the house! It will be seen as an uninvited intrusion and he may not be at all reasonable about this, you could even find yourself with a legal rap across the knuckles, so take care there with whatever you decide.
So perhaps if the house deeds or mortgage are still in your name also, you then may be able to let yourself in and take your things. Perhaps leave him a note to say what you have done and what you have taken and be sure to only take things which you know for sure are yours and yours alone. Do not remove anything that is subject to being joint assets as these have to be divided at the time of divorce.
I would not leave divorce papers though, just let him get those by mail in the normal way. Also it may be good practice to actually write to him before you wish to go there and suggest to him the items you know are yours and ask if you can drop by and collect them .. if he can gather them for you to do that.. be polite and to the point, make no threats or make him feel cornered. What might be a good idea though is to speak to the CAB (Citizens Advice Bureau before you do anything! At least they can give you impartial advice.
I understand your fears about him destroying your things, however, at least if you can prove that you have written to him, requesting these items be returned then you at least will have some back up to substantiate that you tried to work things out amicably. I don’t know what any of the others on here think about this? Perhaps they can offer advice too.
Hello Airfeather and welcome! We are a friendly bunch here and we do all support each other with empathy and compassion for what we are all going through or have been through. Read all that you can that Kim and Steve have put together and read some of the other books out there. Listen to the downloads, I recently bought the Co-dependency package and even after the 1st session of listening to the hypnosis one in particular, I felt a lot better about things. My ex N and I parted company .. semi amicable .. he is coming tomorrow to collect his belongings and that shall be it. I have no regrets that it is over now though, although in the beginning I went through the tears and pain of separation that we feel when a relationship has broken down. Now I feel peace in my heart and I am sure in time you will find your peace too!
Laura – I am glad your comments were removed for your peace of mind. I completely understand your feelings about feeling controlled by the N’s in our life and how helpless and frustrating you and we all find that. I think though if you could find the way to somehow let that go, then you would feel somewhat different about it all. Ask for God’s help in not feeling so angry towards her. I felt the same way towards my husband when we were together and also to my ex boyfriend, whom I have just broken up from a few weeks ago. Something that helped me to move on from despising my husband for example and I have used the same tool again to help me find my peace with my BF, was that I had read Marianne Williamson’s book called ‘A Return to Love’. The particular chapter in question was about forgiveness and healing. It involved repeating a mantra over and over until it settled quietly in your mind.
I remember lying next to my husband and absolutely hating him and everything about him and yet feeling so distraught and ‘bad’ inside myself for feeling that way towards him. I had tried so hard not to let my anger show ever as I would really get it in the neck if I did, and also I did not want my children seeing this in me either, they saw enough of it in their father without me having it also. So there I laid looking at him and reading this book and then looking at him and reading a bit more and I kept thinking to myself ‘I can’t say that I forgive him and send him to the light…how can I?’ Then I realised that I did not want to forgive him.. in hating him and being angry with him made me feel as though I was actually fighting back in some way, protecting myself.
What I did not realise though until that moment, was that I was really hurting myself more than anyone else, certainly more than him. He really could not care a hoot whether I loved him or hated him. He did not love me, he told me often enough, it was ingrained on my soul. So I gave it a whirl.. The author recommends 5 times…well I had to say it 20 times over and over.. it started off very angry.. and I could hear the resentment in my inner voice as I silently voiced this mantra. “I forgive blank and I send him to the light” by the time I was getting to about 10 times, I could feel the anger dissipating and not love returning but certainly no more anger and with it went the fear of him too. I even looked at him with real compassion for his battles he personally was facing within himself.
The next day I woke and felt different. I felt stronger emotionally, than I had felt in a very long time. Over the following weeks and months, I noticed subtle changes in my behaviour towards him, I stopped rising to the bait every time he tried to goad me into an argument. I said this affirmation several times a day for the 1st few days and I definitely felt a major shift in my conscious thoughts because I was using the power of my unconscious mind to make this event come about.
Of course I had lapses .. and the most current one is proof of that. I had started repeating my affirmations of forgiveness when I started to find peace of mind here on this site, when I connected to others here who are going through similar situations.
You have the greatest asset at your finger tips, through what you have learned in the ministry you can tap into the power of prayer. Pray and ask for guidance to feel less anger and negative feelings for your sake. It is so easy though I know to lose our way, I have done so many times in my life. I do not pretend to know all the answers or even a lot of them, but I do know what has worked for me in my hour of need and all I can do is share that with you. What I can promise you though,is that you will start to feel a whole lot better when you let go of the negative thoughts and replace them with the positive ones. When you are angry with others, you are actually relinquishing your personal power and handing it to them. Don’t do that to yourself! You are worth more than that!
Night night everyone, time for bed.. late again.. story of my life!!
Love and light to all
HM
Hi friends
I wanted to share what for me has been a momentous and challenging time and now I can safely say I have just had the final closure on my relationship with my ex N. He came today and collected his things and it was okay! I was okay! I was not sure how I would feel as I had not seen him for a month as it was. We were both a bit tense as you can imagine for a bit, although he was more chatty than me, telling me all about things in the same way that he always did.
When he came to leave though, we had a hug for old times sake and to say goodbye, I wished him well and I felt myself holding on to him that bit longer than I expected to, he also with me. For a brief second or two, I felt as though I was afraid to let go, it reminded me of the safety and the love I once had felt when he and I were close, I felt very emotionally charged and felt a tell tale lump in my throat emerging swiftly. I was determined though that he would not see tears from me. We both let go the same time, although I can honestly say that there was still a something there, a spark of energy between us and if I had not been as strong and empowered as I have been gaining here on this site, I daresay I would have said something about being sad it had come to this, but I knew I must not go there and also I did not feel that inclined. As I shut the door I burst into tears and rang a close friend for a bit of moral support and talked it over with her, knowing she would understand and empathise with why I felt that way, we are both divorced women although she has a partner now.
Despite the tears and the surfacing pain, I know it’s the right thing to be apart from him for all the various reasons which I have shared here with you all for the past 6 weeks or so.
Goodbyes under the best circumstances are not ever easy, we all know that from times we have said goodbye to friends we do not see very often but to say goodbye to someone who really does not get it made it seem even more of a strange entity.
I know there will be more tears I am sure today, even whilst I sit here writing this to you, hot tears are brimming over onto my cheeks, my emotions are getting the better of me, but I also feel these tears are healing that part of me that he hurt and damaged so badly and with cruel intent. That I think is what makes it so hard to comprehend at times, the knowldege that he deliberately abused my trust in him so many times. He feels no remorse for the way in which he has conducted himself at all.
In the recent past I asked for some of my posts to be removed as I was afraid of him becoming difficult if he saw them, if he ever decided to look up NPD for instance, given that I attempted to talk to him about this issue. Now I do not worry, I know what I know and it matters not what he may think now of me writing here as I have.
I know there is light at the end of the tunnel, I have seen it and behold it now, and as Airfeather also expressed, it is not the freight train coming! I am still smiling..
Albeit a wry one and in time I do so hope sincerely that it will be a much wiser one.
For all of you thinking about ending it with your N’s…life still does go on!
My new chapter which began a few weeks ago, continues… watch this space!
Thank you again to all of you who through your own pain and suffering have felt able to share your inner most thoughts with us all, I think you know how much you have helped me recover.
I have much to do, a lot of my life and career got put on hold whilst I was searching for answers and trying to find new safe ground to continue my life’ path.
Love and light
HM
HI CD,
How are things going with you these days? Things have been a bit better for me last few weeks. I still have the anxiety issues (my facial muscles etc) but it is getting a bit better. Its more on the days when I am stressed about something . Kim’s anxiety audio has been very helpful. I sometimes listen to it at bedtime and I can feel that I sleep better on those days. I have been having insomnia as well (probably due to stress). Before I used to be terrified of saying something that according to a N is wrong. Now I keep telling myself that its ok if a make a mistake. All I need to be is a good respectable human being, my husband has to love the person that I am. I don’t have to be the fantasy that he loves. My N husband has been behaving a bit better as well. He is not getting angry that often. But there is still a lot of gap work to do. He still behaves like a kid at times and the worst bit is he say that himself… “I am a kid and I don’t want to grow up”. I don’t know how to handle this. .. he chooses to switch from and an adult to a kid at his will. I have told him in the past that he has to just be one ..either a kid or a grown up.. and decide how he wants to be treated. But I don’t know if this was the right thing to say. I don’t know how to handle him when he does that.. any ideas???.. Also I have read that you have a cd with Kim and Steve’s past radio show. I can listen to them online but there is no option for download. Don’t know if I am looking in the right spot. Can you please send me a link where I can download these?
Cheers
S
HM,
My heart goes out to you and in spirit I am with you. I will pray for peace for you and please remember, he earned what happened. If he was a good guy, he would have earned a life with you, so just remember we reap what we sow. I am happy for you that you got off the rollercoaster ride, it is not a good one. I will look for you to write more,I need to know that you are okay, I feel that we are all sisters together.
Write me soon, Trisha
Hi Trisha
Thank you so much for your concern and yes I agree, we have connected at some deep level haven’t we? A spiritual connection perhaps. What country do you live in out of interest? I am in the UK.
I was not wrong when I said I felt I would be shedding more tears, I cried buckets yesterday but I felt that they were healing me from the inside out. Today though I had some retail therapy, did not buy much, just a pretty cushion for my bedroom, very cheap at £3.99 but it will look nice on my bed. I went with a close friend and it was nice to have the day out with her. We both said how we must do it more often, we are both always so busy in our hectic lives but it was a real gift you know? We chatted and window shopped at all the lovely new season clothes and sat and shared lunch together. It was a healing day.
My ex N text me today and said we must stay friends and see each other occasionally. Yes it would be nice if we could do that, whether or not that is possible of course is unknown to me at the moment, only time will tell. We did enjoy shopping together (my ex husband HATED shopping with a passion and so it was such a novelty to have a man who actually enjoyed it!) and so maybe in time, that is something we may enjoy in the future but as he does not live locally to me, it is highly unlikely we will do that often.
So Trisha, what is happening with you now since your last post about you and your boyfriend getting back together? Still going well I trust!?
Did you see that link that Kim put on here above about her blogspot? I checked it out last night and it seems we can join the groups on there and chat to people privately. Howe we would find each other on there though I do not know as I would not have set it up with my real name for example. I do not know what else we could do except perhaps to set up new hotmail or yahoo accounts and post those here and use them only for chatting to people on here? That way it would not be divulging anything too personal as an email addy. I am not really sure though. Anyone else got any ideas of how we can do this please without anyone here giving away personal info?
Take care Trisha – with you in spirit too sister.
Hx
Hi Everyone,
I have been so busy lately trying to achieve some goals I have, and then my brother took seriously ill last Friday and has been hospitalised in intensive care ever since. My family is very close and we quietly and calmly support each other during times of need, and no-one seeks to have their efforts of support acknowledged or gratified.
However with my husband a typical picture has emerged once again – my husband has become moody and sulking ever since my brother’s condition was revealed to us – the same attitude he had when my father was close to death in January of last year (fortunately he recovered but unfortunately with a lot of disability). My brother is probably suffering from the same heart condition as my father (hereditary?).
My husband has over the years never been able to support me whenever there is a personal crisis happening for me, although I don’t begrudge him for that and I don’t need his support because I can emotionally lean on myself during these times of stress.
What is difficult for me to cope with is having my husband sulking and behaving badly during these times – adding to my stress – and I don’t need or want that. It goes to show how emotionally immature he is at 53 years of age! It would be nice to have some empathy from him but it is pointless getting upset about something I know he is not willing to give because he is afraid to show intimacy at that level.
Kim’s article on Verbal Abuse 3 (kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com) is so right on the mark. My husband sulked and sulked until finally I asked him what was wrong and then all hell broke loose. He claims he is angry at the world because he is constantly being “scrutinised” – he directed this shot at our friends, but I knew between the lines that it was a shot at me because I have exposed some of his lies lately and he does not like that one bit. He has been publicly embarrassed and I am responsible for that – the authority figure that he does not like being answerable to – in fact he does not like being answerable to anyone! I have witnessed our friends taking his BS to task (probably taking licence from the stance I am taking against his BS) and I think that is what he means by being scrutinised (my husband makes statements but does not or cannot elaborate on what he really means).
But now he is stuck in his false pride and he is retaliating by trying to turn things back onto me – holding me to blame for everything! It is difficult being in business together where we both carry a lot of responsibility and sometimes he readily blames me if things don’t go right, or accepts blame himself in a martyr-like way expecting me to so “No, no …it is not your fault” . I don’t do that though especially if I know he is being a martyr – I just say “Stop being such a martyr!” Of course he denies being one. While my husband is still caught up in his blame games – I try to keep “blame” out of my thinking and dialogue – however I am continuing to try and make him accountable via natural consequences. It is difficult though to be in a “third person” position in matters relating to our business.
Guess I will keep soldiering on not giving in to his tantrums and manipulation to keep the boundary between fantasy and reality from becoming blurred again. I also have to be sure of what is factual and/or morally and legally right before I take a standpoint on any issue and also to keep consistent – I am having a little trouble with consistency because my husband, in typical narcissistic fashion, diverts and digresses so quickly and skilfully from the original topic into a whole heap of other “junk”.
Hi John – what awesome news and well done! You have made so much progress in such a short time! I liked what you said:
“You cannot get your strength thru someone else unless you accept that that strength can be false and taken away at any time by the other person. Once you separate yourself enough from the other person you can see a little clearer what needs to be done.”
You have captured the essence of “detachment” and learning how to emotionally, mentally and spiritually stand on your own two feet while still loving and living with your loved one.
Keep up the good work and stay in touch – it is so important – and helps others too, including me!
Hi S – like John above you have made so much progress also in such a short time too! Those face muscles beginning to relax I think is a good indicator that you are becoming more and more confident! Perhaps a relaxing head, neck and facial massage might help too? Maybe your husband might oblige especially if he is more calm now.
I think it is basically what we are dealing with in narcissism – the child within the dysfunctional adult – the one who has learned to get what they want all their life through tantrums and irresponsibility – the one who has been too anxious and afraid to grow up from being dependent….to being independent and accountable.
There is a saying that is good to assess when someone needs to learn to stand on their own two feet:
“Never do for someone what they could or should do for themselves.” I have used this many times when my husband is just being “needy” (my husband is very capable and self-motivated most of the time).
You may have already listened to Kim & Steve’s Globaltalk radio shows – but the archived radio shows that you can download and play for free on your computer are from http://thelovesafetynet.com
When the home page opens scroll down the page and under the big heading “Welcome Aboard” you will see “The Love Safety Net Radio” – click on that link and then scroll down to the bottom of the next page even though you can see some radio show titles already – click on “Go to Archive”.
On the next page that opens you will find links to all the old radio shows and if you click on each radio show link you can download each show for free to your computer via email – just follow the instructions (some shows will say “coming soon” as they are not currently available – but all the others are available). It is a long time since I downloaded the shows to my computer so maybe some procedures have changed(?). If so the Narcissism Help Desk will assist.
You can also record these radio shows to CD and play them on your CD player in your car or at home if you wish while you are driving or doing chores, etc – effective use of time and great honest company!
Hi HM – good to hear you are feeling comfortable and healing – will talk again to you soon!
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi all,
For starters – CD, once again I am struck once again by the similarities between scenerios you describe with you husband … it has totally been my fault when I have had car trouble and he did not (as he routinely does not) answer any of the phones. There are other similarities you have described recently as well.
Up until about 3 weeks ago, things were going fairly well. I found that when I was firmly setting some limits on specific behaviors and providing some reasonable alternatives and guidelines, even if I got some initial reaction back, later I might get some acknowlegement. I might get a warm gesture when I returned from walking away from a potentially escalating conversation. I might then say that something just gets triggered for me in our conversations, and that is why I needed to stop the conversation. He might admit that it is both of us, and it is a bad cycle. I felt more confident about where we were, even if all of my limits were not fully accepted and still being tested. Although there were some ups and downs it was a clear progression upward. I will say because things were calmer, it was easier for me to also focus on reconnecting with some playful interactions and I would consciously try and diffuse after a minor tension with something light or humorous.
The past few weeks he has gone back to lots of criticisms. I saw his sleep becoming more erratic and was asking why he was feeling stressed. He seems to need to point out the situations in which I have been wrong about how I handled something, or the times it which I have covered up about something I did (wrong yes, but motivated by trying to avoid the arguement and the I told you so.) Because I was wrong, it is very fertile ground to get me feeling very insecure and inadequate. For several days almost every comment he made to me, or to the boys in ear-shot of me, seemed to reflect back on this. Grrr ..especially when he then throws in how this ensures the boys will turn away from me in the future (ie, “you are teaching them to lie, and when they find out that you will lie to them, if they are smart, they will never trust you.”) This further snowballs in me because I then question if I am the narcissistic one, and I do not want to hurt my children going forward.
Because I am getting some trouble at work related to my being overwhelmed and taking shortcuts during two very bad periods in the last 2 years, I am more vulnerable as well. Angry too, because although the carelessness was my fault, both times were clearly linked to how he was treating me, and how I was letting it affect me – depression, exhaustion. I don’t slack on patient care, but on documentation, and my husband has always reminded me that, in a bureaucracy, it doesn’t matter what you do, as long as the correct documentation is there. He has told me at some point my “problems” will hurt me at work, and this is just another medium sized affirmation of that.
Just the past few days have been round #56 on “how much are you making?” (while also continuing on the how I am hurting the boys theme) I’ve answered this many times, to the best of my ability, in a variety of forms, and it is just a facade to some other worry of his. In the same escalating conversation I can get “well that is not enough, you need to do more” to “if that is all it is, that barely covers the nanny, why don’t you just stop working?” None of this is true, and there are no real financial issues. I put in an e-mail again what I can guarantee, and that there is some variability beyond that – I explained what that would cover, and that I expected that to be the end of this discussion. I’m saleried. I’m the easy to quantify part of our household income. This morning he started again looking to escalate the fight. The numbers for my salery amount was not sufficient information, he continued to argue what seemed to be contradictory statements, all the while telling me I was stupid and couldn’t think about anything clearly. I did not understand what he wanted, and only after the fact can clear my head enough to realize that there was no satisfactory answer because it was a smokescreen for some other anxiety. He pushed until there was an arguement in front of the boys (at the time of needing to get the oldest to school – violating 2 limits I had put in place earlier this year.) I hesitated on putting everyone into the car immediately, only because the younger two were half undressed and we still have snow. That seemed more unreasonable. The oldest was trying to convince dad to stop and take him into school so he would not be late, and the younger two were play hiding in the closet … not really out of fear, but just getting revved up and trying to distract, but the symbolism of their hiding really bothered me.
When he returned he continued, but it eventually came to “well you just take care of paying everything, and see how well you do,” followed by telling me to put it all on an excel sheet. I despise spreadsheets because of earlier interactions we have had, but my guess is that he is just feeling overly anxious about how much is going out and he doesn’t want to deal with it(and I know some of it is minor but extraneous spending on his part, and some recent big expenses) Since I have always handled our taxes, and payed most bills except for the major ones which he does online, I certainly can pay all of them, and I guess I can deal with working to put it on an excel sheet if it makes him feel better. Since I need to work on making myself have that level of organization there may be a point to it as well. (I’d be far more willing if he had just asked me to handle everything nicely
I give all of the details just to try and think about how minor stuff day in and day out is unfair and toxic. I’m also trying to keep reframing his behaviors as being driven by his anxieties and insecurities – perhaps just the fear of taking the next business leap, but maybe something more??? Reminding myself about this perspective is helpful. I’m not sure where is his “false pride” and I’m struggling as I am not living up to my own image of myself professionally whereas he is doing fine. I think the attacks on me as a parent are his doubting his efforts, (he gets really defensive if I say anything negative about what he does, and he seems to search for support of how he is a good father) In the big picture he is reasonable, does some really good things. He is insensitive sometimes, but it is the looking for accolades, criticizing everyone (me, teachers at school or other activities) or his need for the boys to be “unreasonable above everyone.”(in my opinion)” that drives me crazy. Sometimes his efforts are driven by what he wants, or how it makes him look in the eyes of others, rather than what the boys want/need.
By definition – is that not narcissism? I have at least mostly learned that trying to convince him he is doing that is futile. I don’t think that recognition will ever come, and when I allow myself to get hurt or upset at the arrogance things derail.
Sorry for the length.
MR
Hi CD,
I can understand the emotions that you are currently experiencing . I wish and pray that you brother gets well soon. Your husband acting like that in such a situation is a typical N behaviour. I guess he is feeling that all your attention is towards your brother and he is not on top of your list is making him sulk. So that he can have your attention. I think Ns feel that they should be the only one who can make their partners happy or sad. I have also experienced similar situations. An elderly family member passed away a little over a year ago. As I live in a different country to where my family is I could not be there when he passed away. We went there later in the year and remembering him I cried. I was feeling a bit upset and instead of being there for me all my husband said was.. “If you love your family so much why did you marry me. You should have just stayed with them” and sulked that I do not give importance to him etc. I was shocked how could he say something like that cant I even feel sad for someone who is no more. Just because I married him does not mean that I cannot feel anything for my family. He is a bit different now. He still lacks empathy but is better than how he was a year back. They seem to think that their problems are always bigger than the others. You are doing the right thing by not giving into his tantrums. Its good that you have a close and supportive family. It is so important for us.
Thanks so much for the link. I am able to download the radio shows now .
Cheers
S
Hi MR,
It is so good to hear from you and that you have made some progress. Just reading between the lines of your post – I might be wrong – but has your husband had any real experience or formal training in book-keeping? I know he is a professional but that does not necessarily mean he automatically knows how to keep books.
Your husband obviously has the responsibility of balancing the budget in your household, but I bet he has “the most elaborate and impressive spreadsheet” for that purpose – a spreadsheet that only he could understand – but not at a glance?
Spreadsheets are good but can be cumbersome. Although your husband may be good at designing spreadsheets (an attribute which he uses to put you down) he may have discovered he is not using the best method of keeping a pulse on your book-keeping and out of false-pride he is too embarassed, unwilling, unable or ashamed to admit this to you – so he continues to pretend that it is a whole lot of other reasons why the household income is being exceeded/overstretched. And further because you are possibly the chief or most reliable bread-winner in your family, your husband is probably experiencing some more false-pride about that also.
Your husband seems to have some extremely high (and perhaps unrealistic) expectations of you, himself and others too (Just like my husband in his world). Would your husband be too proud to admit to you that he has lost the handle on your book-keeping or is out of his depth all together if that were the case? (My husband chucks tantrums, and puts me or other people down when he is out of his depth). I am guessing also that your husband is challenging you to sort out his book-keeping problems for him – by earning more money, or by creating your own spreadsheet – because he would be secretly hoping that you would fail, and therefore he would not be held solely accountable for the budget not balancing, and he wants to bring you down in the pecking order!
You seem to have had a logical look at the situation – that there is more than enough income from you to cover the Nanny and the other household expenses – one would have to wonder where the rest of the income is going. Every couple knows it is easy to holiday and/or to fritter away suplus funds after expenses – but two professional people should be on more than just a comfortable income.. if you believe this comment has merit then I would encourage you to find out if your husband has a “habit” that is expensive and that he is concealing from you.
Kim says that false-pride is always based on a lie in Verbal Abuse 2 (kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com). It may not be a big lie like a concealed expensive habit, it might be “fakeness” also which can be seen at many different levels, such as Kim described about Steve in Verbal Abuse 2. It could be fakeness on a much more public scale too, who knows.
My guess also is that you have successfully run the household books at some stage? Perhaps your husband took over this task when you went back to work after your last baby – and you financially supported the family while he was setting up his home-based business which apparently is quite new and unique, but now is demonstrating some success?
Just an observation of mine too – that your husband treated you most abominably when he and your whole family were totally dependent financially on your income over the last year or so until his business kicked off?
If you have successfully managed the household books before – or feel that you could manage them in what precious little time you would have available – then accept his challenge – but first be sure to have obtained and learned a simple computer accounting package that your accountant recommends before accepting the challenge. It is essential to have an accounting program that records where all your expenses are going – the type of expense/income, who it was paid to/received from, how much, when and how it was paid/received, and that your cheque (checking) account reconciles with your bank statement, etc.
A good accounting program will also allow you to enter when future accounts are due. In Australia we have an excellent accounting package called MYOB (Mind Your Own Business) – I don’t know if it is available or suitable in America – but I used to run our business books on spreadsheets and one exhausted day I decided that spreadsheets were ridiculously time consuming, inefficient and potentially inaccurate for my accounting purposes. I bought MYOB and attended 8 x 2 hour classes held over 8 weeks and I have never regretted getting rid of those ghastly spreadsheets!
Our business has benefited by it also, and our Accountant has put many of her other clients onto MYOB as well and she thanks me often for making the change and indirectly improving the standard of so many of her clients book-keeping.
The other way of dealing with it is to challenge your husband to search out and purchase a good computer accounting program and learn it via an accredited trainer – citing to him also that it may save him time in the end – more time that he could devote to the success of his business ventures. I bet though that his pride will probably get in the way of acknowledging (if so) that his spreadsheets are not as functional as they readily need to be.
You may remember Kim talking about Steve learning MYOB and now how he reliably runs their books – but Kim had to search out how to fill the gap and Steve overcame the gap! Running the household books is as important as running a small business – at the end of the day it is important to be able to live within your means, pay your bills and taxes on time, and put a some savings away. I think that running household books is often underestimated – and it is often assumed that anyone should be able to do it – but it is not always that simple to many people – and it is sad it was not taught as a life skill during our school days – although I think it is being included to a minor level now but not to all students (not in Australia anyway). I believe lack of education or experience in basic life skills can be at the heart of a lot of false-pride.
I’m sure that you have already done the steepest part of the learning curve about living and dealing with narcissism – and now that learning curve should flatten out somewhat. This should allow you to concentrate more on your work again – so take heart, you are obviously conscientious and responsible – and narcissists are so needy and distracting – you know how to overcome the BS now.
I also have had to take stock because I got behind in my work in some areas too – however it was a case of getting my head in the right place to be able to cope and deal with the BS on a daily basis.
You are a capable, worthwhile and respectable person – you just have to believe it! Your peers know it, but your husband is telling you otherwise – what is he hiding? what is his false-pride? or have I guessed some of it above?
As you believe more and more in yourself, you will be less affected by what your husband says to you or about you to others, and you will gradually disarm the narcissist in your husband. Until then he will exploit your self-doubts and manipulate you and your children. You have the credentials and the public recognition to prove why you are where you are today – and you are where you are today whilst enduring a very difficult home-life – so why do you doubt yourself and your capabilities – and give credibility to his criticisms of you? You do not need his approval – and if he is like my husband you will rarely get his approval because of his false-pride – instead you will get put down. . . also because of his false-pride and I believe his envy of you and your capabilities, respectability and success.
Believe in, love and approve of yourself – your husband has no right to take your inventory, especially if he has a lot of work to do on himself!
Hope this helps in some way,
CD, Australia.
Hi S,
Thank you for your comments – you are so right – I feel it is a jealousy thing, not jealous of the person, but jealous that we can be close to another person. Because narcissists are so self-absorbed and see themselves as the centre of the universe – I am sure that mine thinks I think about him all the time – well I don’t! I think also that they are so insecure that they demand a bottomless cup of love and devotion from you and everyone close to them, but they are so afraid to allow themselves to become vulnerable at the same time. Who knows what events lead them to being so insecure and lacking of trust in others.
I hope you get as much from the radio shows as I have – I often recommend them to people – and there is The Love Boat Cruise on the same website that is worth the trip!
Keep in touch, your progress is inspirational!
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
To clarify a few details -
My husband’s undergraduate degree is in accounting, and through his various work experiences he has reviewed and assessed business plans and financial reports (ie government securities regulation work.)
That being said – perhaps because of differences between Canadian and US tax systems, I had to show him that you could deduct various things on US taxes, and refiled some of his old taxes shortly after we were married.
“Your husband obviously has the responsibility of balancing the budget in your household, but I bet he has “the most elaborate and impressive spreadsheet” for that purpose – a spreadsheet that only he could understand – but not at a glance?”
A flawed system has evolved – he takes care of some of the major bills “on line” but the majority of the little bills seem to get lost in a “mail drawer,” He used to go through it occasionally, but it seems more irratic over the past few years. I really did not want to take this back, but it has become more and more clear to me that many items are getting missed (second and third notices etc.) I have resisted taking this over, but I need to just deal with it.
To the best of my knowledge he does not have any detailed spreadsheet, but rather wants me to generate one. I have seen him itemize out budgets for his conferences etc, but any version of a home one has been very superficial.
I used to be the primary income – that flipped about 4 years ago (??) Mine is more consistent and stable, but when it was primary he was less volitile. Overall his put downs of me have been far more since he has been more in the traditional role of primary breadwinner.
“Your husband seems to have some extremely high (and perhaps unrealistic) expectations of you, himself and others too (Just like my husband in his world). Would your husband be too proud to admit to you that he has lost the handle on your book-keeping or is out of his depth all together if that were the case? (My husband chucks tantrums, and puts me or other people down when he is out of his depth). I am guessing also that your husband is challenging you to sort out his book-keeping problems for him – by earning more money, or by creating your own spreadsheet – because he would be secretly hoping that you would fail, and therefore he would not be held solely accountable for the budget not balancing, and he wants to bring you down in the pecking order!”
Reflecting on this, I think he is in need of someone else to do his business books, wants me to “find” someone (despite my wanting to hire an accountant last year, and his asking me to wait) I know I can’t do his records ( I would totally be responsible for any real or imagined failure,) and if I find someone they will be improper or inadequate. From past experience he also has a hard time allowing someone else to take a look at financials.
“You seem to have had a logical look at the situation – that there is more than enough income from you to cover the Nanny and the other household expenses – one would have to wonder where the rest of the income is going. Every couple knows it is easy to holiday and/or to fritter away suplus funds after expenses – but two professional people should be on more than just a comfortable income.. if you believe this comment has merit then I would encourage you to find out if your husband has a “habit” that is expensive and that he is concealing from you. “
Beyond taking himself and/or the boys out to eat at a resteraunt at least daily (and far to often for his health,) and a little over-indulgent shopping when he is in a “mood,” I have not found anything.
Regarding the basic bookkeeping issues – I have always done our taxes, have filed employment papers etc on some earlier nannies, so I should be able to do a more formalized budget etc. I just need to accept that whatever I give him will be “wrong.” I don’t want to learn corporate taxes and what records need to be kept for that … my time is better spent elsewhere.
I’m not sure why he is attacking me again, but I can see it is effecting my thinking and organization. That then leaves me open to making mistakes and giving him more room to attack back. Just tonight, he asked me to put an air filter on in the boys room because a new mattress had a strong odor. I had asked him to take them to their activity in the early evening because I have been up and down the past nights, and was tired. He said he did not feel well and could not. I fell asleep when laying down with the boys and did not put the filter on. He awakened a few hours later and starting tyraiding at me because despite his reminding me several times, I did not do it.
My guess is he is anxious about something, was deflecting this as anxiety that the odor was going to hurt them, and any reassurance from me was and would be futile. He was angry I did not do what he asked, and was using it to validate for him that I am “an idiot,” passive aggressive against him, and I actively and purposely do things counter to what he says. (and thus the cause of all problems)
Sometimes I wonder if I am capable of coping and dealing with it when the garbage flairs. I though my mood and functioning were better, but the past weeks have caused me to downslide. It will pass, but it the middle of it, it is exhausting and doesn’t seem worth the effort.
I hope your brother is doing better and would like to reflect back to you, that you sound more confident in yourself than you did right after the holidays.
MR
Just brainstorming on the the whole anxiety connection, which was something Kim had responded about a while back.
In my own life – my husband’s behavior is worse at times when I know he is stuggling with anxiety and worries. In the big picture he is always fearing how he measures up against some distorted perception of how he thinks other people live, and how much he thinks they/see judge him. (I probably underestimate how others do make quick judgements of us.)
N’s manage to focus in on our insecurites and fuel our own doubts and anxieties. Despite consciously knowing I won’t get it, I still look for and hope for reassurance from him about my self-worth etc., especially when feeling needy.
Addictions which are a part of many N relationships, are most definitely started and maintained by finding an imperfect way to relieving anxiety and then needing to do something again to return to that stress relief. Certainly the increased financial strain and unemployment of the current global economy is raising the rate/intensity of addiction (not to mention spousal abuse.)
My suspicion is most of us can sense when the tension is building in our relationship, and can predict when things are cycling back up again. How can we use this knowledge to both brace for and to diffuse the tension in ourselves and in our partner? It is very difficult to be more nurturing of someone who is verbally (or physically) lashing out at you.
I recently saw a good article on the role of oxytocin (nervous system chemical – released with sexual release, breast feeding, other relaxation states etc.) While only a piece of the puzzle, the paper described how some therapists are using inducing this state with couples to improve their connectedness and stess management. They have found measurable increases in blood oxytocin, when placing your hand over your heart, focusing on the sensation of your heart beat and your breathing and thinking of positive shared times/experiences. They have also found measureable increases in the subjective level of satisfaction with the relationship by both partners, after implementing this exercise. Certainly this is similar to other meditative techniques. I’ll have to hunt around and review the details, but the measured increase in oxytocin caught my attention (anyone who has breast fed an infant knows of the state of relaxation and sleepiness that oxytocin can produce once you are familiar and comfortable with nursing)
Early in our marriage, I noticed my husband breathes very shallowly and very quickly. He also has panic attacks (an anxiety symptom.) I have tried on numerous occasions to help him to slow down his breathing, to focus on his internal physical sensations rather than either ignoring, deflecting or just fearing them. These techniques are part of the basis to self-relaxation strategies, but he was fairly resistent. Perhaps others can utilize some of these techniques.
Just some thoughts,
MR
Hi Kim,
Just read your article Verbal Abuse 4 on kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com and like all your other articles on Verbal Abuse you have an incredible and invaluable understanding on human behaviour and relationships and it is so appreciated by me and others who experience verbal and emotional abuse.
No doubt what I have experienced in the last week (husband sulking) will happen again since my husband frequently does not know how to tap into his emotions, self-soothe and find solutions to or clear perspective on his problems (he finds his solutions through alcohol and verbal/emotional abuse).
His sulking still pulls my strings sometimes – although I try not to get sucked in. You have given me some clear ideas on how to stay grounded and focused on improving my relationship with myself while sometimes having my husband being clearly angry with me (or someone else, or the world) threatening to distract me from that important focus.
The next time he is sulking I will say to him (while opening the doors and windows up and bringing fresh flowers and music into the room)
“Whatever you are angry or sulking about right now is stinking this place right up, and since you are having so much difficulty dealing with whatever it is – how about you go somewhere private and write down anything and everything you would like to do or say to get your feelings and angries out, write a book if you have to, and then destroy whatever it is that you have written. After that you might even be able to ‘get over it’, or find a solution to or confront the problem, or at least get a more calm perspective on whatever it is that is troubling you so much.”
I may have to even give this spiel to him on a pretty piece of paper with my perfume on it if I feel I might not be able to say this in the right tone of voice, and then I would walk away and cheerfully get on with my life before he has a chance to dump his truth and/or junk on me before getting his angries out.
I have used this method of writing my thoughts, feelings, emotions and angries out (rebooting my circuitry) many times over the years and it has worked for me – it also sometimes brings to the surface and my attention my behaviour patterns, my intimate thoughts and feelings (especially those I have had to suppress because I fear my husband’s reaction to them) and it keeps me in touch with my core values and beliefs.
I really like being my own best friend, and I know the importance of it because if I did lose everything I know I can lean on, trust in and like/love myself. Sometimes I get worn down to a state of ego or defence, but I can recognise this and bounce back quickly – my husband cannot do this, and he can’t understand why I don’t stay down with him wallowing in self-pitying and resentment like he does. Attitudes are contagious – and I still catch his sometimes – afterall I am only a forgiveable and forgiving human being who has temporarily forgotten to detach, and to live and let live.
Gosh – just when I thought I was the only one who hated shopping for clothes – the hot sweaty unnatural exercise of getting undressed and dressed so many times in such a short space of time, the humiliation of a shop assistant swishing open the curtains exposing my undergarments and semi-nakedness to the world, or if fortunately dressed at the time telling me the outfit looks great and/or suits me when clearly it does not in my eyes, and then the trepidation of buying something or going home with nothing at all while in a state of mental, emotional and physical exhaustion and sometimes confusion. I hate it! And I thought all women were supposed to love buying clothes! I love clothes – just not shopping for them! I am glad I am not alone – thanks Kim – and thanks Steve – what a great idea!
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
CD – I just do not know how you keep managing to do it every day! You are out there for all of us and yet you have so much going on in your own life with your husband’s issues and now your brother’s illness on top of all this! I really admire you so much and wish I had the same handle on it all that you do. I think even with all the reading you and Kim and Steve have suggested, I still do not think that I would be quite as understanding as you are about the N in your life. I cannot even begin to quantify what it is you are doing or feeling or coping with! I take my hat off to you though and I am sure I am not alone in my thoughts about you and what you represent to us all!
To all the rest of you, take care of yourselves first and foremost, reclaim your lives. I lost mine for a while and am slowly and surely taking back my power.
I still hurt from time to time but now the memories of the unpleasantries of my recent relationship with an N, are diminishing into the grey mists of time and any sadness felt now is the usual sort of reflective thinking and ruminating that one does when any relationship comes to an end. It is the smallest of things that can evoke such powerful thoughts too. It all seems like such a long time ago now too and it has in reality only been 4 weeks and feels like 4 months! Maybe though because I had been shutting down from him and the havoc he was creating in my life for the past 8 or 9 months at least. This was when his behaviour had really changed and I was seeing more of the wolf and less of the sheep.
I feel encouraged for you all though when I read of your personal triumphs in focusing on your recovery and keeping the N from destroying your self esteem any more than they have in the past! I do feel that so many of you have really captured the essence of what you need to do to protect yourselves. I feel I failed to do that for myself until it was nearly too late. It has been a hard lesson but a worthwhile one too. I know more about me this time around than I managed the 1st time around with my ex husband. He gave me the opportunity to learn about what makes me tick as well as wondering about him. I hope that the lessons learned here are long remembered by me!
HM
Hi All!
I have been out of touch for a while, as I’ve been trying to sort through my story and figure out how my husband’s new job role would play out in our life. We had a few good weeks there – it was very nice. I fely like we were turning a corner. But, then I was reminded that nothing in life is really that easy.
So my husband got fired back in December, and decided to take a much less paying job in a similar field that he had been working. He dreams of becoming a real estate investing “superstar”, and building an empire in his name. He spent the past several years on his education in real estate and business. (Most likely why he lost his job, as he wasn’t really working at all for his employer).
He decided to go work with some collegues that he had worked with years ago. He was SUPER excited at the opportunity at first and despite my concern that it wasn’t what he “really” wanted, he sold me, yet again that he would be pleased and excited to do this new job.
It is 3 weeks in and he is losing interest and focus already. I DO NOT know what to do or how to support his dreams and ideas. I am looking for a job and trying to find something of value to help out with our bills, as we are struggling to make ends meet, especially with the pay cut and had to put our home up for sale.
He sounds like he has fallen into his habbits of spinning his wheels under the pressure. He also, as a narcissist can’t say no to the collegues he has built relationships with over the past couple years. He sells himself as this distinguished buisiness man with all these great ideas and goals, but he has never been able to bring any of his ideas to life. He desperately wants to but gets in his own way of success by demanding unrealistic outcomes in his ideas. His like minded business collegues obviously expect him to deliver and therefore even though he has taken a new and very time consuming position – he feels the need to deliver what he was trying to accomplish before he got fired.
I simply do not know how to watch this happen all over again without being angry and resentful that he refuses to hear my perspective. Also, true to the nature of the N, he agreed to concentrate only on this new job and to put the side business ideas on the back burner for the next several months while we struggle through the hardships that face us right now – losing our house, kids changing schools?, moving, a new job with travel, our overall health and relationships!!! Enough to deal with without ANY added stress of more work, more time away, more meetings and more spending.
I guess I would like some advice as to how to handle the situation. It is simply impossible to speak to him calmly even, about my concerns. Do I just sit back and watch him make the mistakes he’s made all this time. Because I am the one who suffers from his bad behavior when things fall apart because he puts too much pressure on himself. He reached out to a woman friend of his for an ego boost & some reassurance just last week. I HATE that stupidity, I really do.
I’m afraid of the fallout. More importantly, I don’t know how to stand by him because he is pissing me off with this all over again.
Any advice, please?!!!
Hi MR,
I sincerely apologise to you for getting too carried away in my last posting to you. I must remember to share only my personal truth and if that helps someone in some way then both the joy and pain of my life’s journey will have been all the more worthwhile.
In what I would like to share with you and others today is also partly in response to HM’s praise to me of what I am doing, feeling and coping with – and putting up with it . . . all while there is so much else going on in my life (Hi HM… and thank you for your comments). I question myself about those same things almost on a daily basis, however I always come to the conclusion that if ever I feel like I am putting up with too much, or I am feeling hurt or in a state of ego or defence, then I need to collect myself, get any self-pity, resentment and martydom I might have in check, and then take back my personal power by looking at the bigger picture of why things are the way they are. I then examine the difficulties I am experiencing, or how I have not sufficiently protected my boundaries . . . how I have not stood up for myself – something which I am deficient in not only in my marriage but outside of my marriage too – and then I search for solutions.
It is hard work taking a searching and fearless personal inventory of myself and it always comes back to how well I know, love and accept myself for exactly who I am with all my strengths and weaknesses – right at that precise moment in time.
How does that help me when I am not being treated well by my husband or someone else? It reduces or cancels out any hurt I might have suffered if I was not in a higher place of understanding, and also by knowing, believing in, loving and accepting myself – including all my weaknesses and flaws.
I am my own very best friend now, and no-one has the right to take my personal inventory in the form of insults and put-downs, etc. Likewise I do not have the right to take the personal inventory of anyone else either, including my husband, and I know I get caught up in that whenever I am trying to sort out any confusion or differences that may exist between us – but the Catch 22 is that it helps me to understand, know, love and accept him also at any point in time – for all his strengths and weaknesses – and to know where his gaps are in the short term, but to take a hands off attitude in the longer term.
For me, doing this work dispels any fantasy and keeps me in touch with reality – and it helps me overcome any narcissism or co-dependency that may exist within me – hopefully taking me to a higher place of understanding and emotional maturity and security. For this reason I am grateful that my husband’s alcoholism and narcissism lead me to the profound wisdom of the programs created by Al-Anon, Kim and Steve Cooper, and others who have travelled this path before me and found their way to their personal truth and success in life.
Doing this work on myself does not mean accepting blame for everything that goes wrong in my life – in fact it is quite the opposite. It is extremely important not to take responsibility for someone else’s shortcomings or to conceal the truth.
Whenever my husband verbally abuses, criticises, sulks, and/or puts me down, etc – (whether he feels he has a valid reason or not) I know that there is NEVER an excuse for this type of behaviour and he NEVER has the right to do that to me – to destroy my spirit, self-worth and self-confidence – and he must be stopped and be held accountable for that (by my standing up for myself and/or by exposing his behaviour to those he would least like knowing about it) – anything else is protecting him from himself.
It needs to be remembered too that it takes at least two people to have a conflict, and anxiety borne of fear and/or frustration is most likely the trigger for any conflict escalating to abuse. Each party to the conflict and/or abuse must take full responsibility for their own part in the fray – but taking responsibility for one’s own part does not always happen – does it?
It takes a lot of self-discipline, understanding and maturity in life’s virtues to take full responsibility for one’s own part in any interaction – but it is essential to develop honesty and trust . . . and for any healing to begin.
However, sometimes we really are the victim of unprovoked and unacceptable behaviour, and this becomes quite clear when we actively stop reacting to negative judgements and/or provocation by our loved one. We may even reveal that there may be other factors involved in their anti-social behaviour – such as inadequacies, or not meeting their own basic needs – for example: inadequate or improper nutrition, sleep deprivation, etc.
We remain a victim of this unacceptable behaviour if we allow it to continue by not taking the appropriate action against it, or by using the same weapons as them such as angry outbursts, intimidation, blackmail (emotional or otherwise), accusations/blame, tears, begging, put downs, withdrawal, sulking and so on. There is a right way and a wrong way to handle every situation – and two wrongs don’t make a right.
We can only take charge of our own life by getting to know, believing in and loving ourselves – dispelling any fantasy from our lives by getting in touch with the truth and reality, exposing the secrets and lies, and opening the doors to the natural consequences of unacceptable behaviour. In doing so we rise out of our victimhood because we are no longer aiding and abetting the unacceptable behaviour, and our loved one can at last see our actions as being totally honest and therefore trustworthy, even though they may be uncomfortable with or resistant to change at first – especially to those, such as my husband, who survive and thrive on drama.
For some time now I have been on the receiving end of some very resistant narcissistic behaviour – resistant to my stance against it – it has been very challenging and exhausting, and I have been very tempted to give up and I may do that one day – but in the meantime I have seen some evidence of my husband trying to face and overcome his difficulties and emotional immaturity – and this is significant because he has been locked up in denial, false-pride and a lack of trust for most of his life.
My focus now within my relationship is on being true to myself, and appropriately confronting the narcissistic/co-dependent behaviour in him. . . and me . . .with courage and the full understanding that a solid marriage is built on love, understanding, honesty, trust and respect . . . . . anything else may just be fantasy.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Wow – CD – you really know how to express yourself so well! I feel more at peace with what I know and understand again. Thank you for helping me re-connect with my higher self and realise that I don’t have to let it get to me. I know I can choose to do this or not, as we all have that choice. However, as all of us who are at the mercy of a tongue lashing from the N in our lives, it is not always so easy to remember to step back or to stand up and take positive action.
I never really mastered that with him I am afraid, by the time I found out he was an N, it was too late, the relationship was really on the rocks and I had not seen him for many weeks even by then. I was unable to put in place any of the healing and love from a distance whilst he was leading his double life.
Recently, I had reason to call his parents to see how they were as his mother has been undergoing some medical treatment. As before, she had intimated to me that I am the reason for the break up and how very upset they both are and how worried they are for their son, who lives in a small bedsit in a large city. It is my fault it seems for him ‘being back to square one’ .. but then she always did see me as being his saviour .. the one who made him happier than she had seen him for years blah blah blah.
I bit my tongue and kept my own counsel on my thoughts of her dear son, yet I did let out that their son had some very serious issues and that if he did not resolve these in his mid 50′s I did not see how he was going to ever. That I could not live like that anymore with those concerns about him. She said he had told them we were still good friends and I said that I was not totally aware of that fact as one really needs to keep in contact to keep friendships nurtured. She did not push for more information but I know they know something about him. They do know that he has very serious financial problems with huge credit card debts.
I therefore, following this phone call, sent him a text and said his parents were still feeling down and that I had mananged to cheer his mum up a bit and that I had heard from them he was away for the weekend visiting an old friend in my neck of the woods (my birthplace). This absolutely narked me I cannot tell you as I had not ever met any of his friends in 2 years! Now at the 1st opportunity here he was visiting an ‘old friend’ The thing that really annoyed me so intensely though at the time was that I found out from him in a defensive email was that he was visiting them as they had a crisis and he went to help out! OF COURSE HE DID!!! YEAH RIGHT!!!
Considering I had a crisis back last November when I discovered a health scare and have still not been given the all clear on that, and desperately wanted to see him and was so scared, but he was too busy with his other double life to come and support me… he came for the 2nd appt but only when I asked him outright… as for being a support and loving and caring, I may as well have been there alone for what good he was to me. He made me more saddened and I felt more alone than ever as it was like being with a stranger, he was there under duress clearly!
I also remembered recently when his parents were both very poorly yet was that not a crisis worthy of a son’s attendance? He went to see them for a few hours on one day only, and yet here he was away for the weekend ‘helping out an old friend’, whom he has not seen for 25 years! But oh they have vowed not to leave it another 25 years he said! He was very careful not to say whether this friend was male or female .. the word ‘they’ was used instead of he or she.
This is the ploy N’s use to great effect to confuse you and make you feel concerned and anxious that something is going on .. this is yet another way they exert their power over you.. they take great delight and gain powerful feelings from displaying this sort of behaviour. It is dangerous. The last few times I recall him doing this deliberately too was when he was fobbing me off that he was having an affair or at least was interested in someone else and when I asked him out right, he laughed and said he had been winding me up because he could! Sick man or what?! I was so angry and hurt at that sick game that it literallly paralysed me and I did nothing nor said nothing.
Yesterday my instant reaction was to reply and tell him what a despicable excuse for a human being I thought he was that he would use a crisis to gain power over that friend .. this is a favour he will recall at some point in time as that is what he always does. He does something like this, then stores it away until he wants something back from that person .. he NEVER EVER does anything out of the pure goodness of his heart… there is ALWAYS an ulterior motive and this is no exception. This friend, whomever they are, do not yet know what they have let themselves in for. But it made me so angry that he is at it again already! He wasted no time in finding another victim or N supply as we know they do.
I caught my breath though, and am pleased to say that instead of reacting to the email with the negative reaction I was first feeling, I CHOSE NOT to respond and have since ignored it.
I do still think about that and other things he did and said to me in our 2 years together and I still feel I made the right decision in ending it. I have stopped questioning that so know I am on the right road.
When you say though CD about exposing your husband to the people he would not want to know .. who are these people and what exactly do you tell them? Should I attempt to tell his parents what he is like? They have blamed me, his ex partner and his 1st wife for ill treating their beloved blue eyed boy.. or at least his mother has, his dad I think sits on the fence a lot and sees all but says nothing. Once though when I did talk to his dad very briefly about his finances, did say to me that I should not stand for any nonsense from him regarding money and that he must pay his way. Easier said than done though as many of you know. I still ended up out of pocket most of the time and even when we split up, as he owes me money for various things I paid for on his behalf.
He is continually punishing his aged parents because years ago he wanted them to sign their house over to his name so that in the event of their death, the government could not get their greedy mits on it to pay for their care in their final days. I suspect though, he really wants it for his own purpose .. i.e to be in a position to raise a 2nd mortgage to pay off his debts. This is a man who in his mid 50′s has squandered a lot of money!
What intrigues me now is though, where is his next NS going to come from? If he meets a woman who lives in his vicinity, boy will he have a problem… he will not want them to see where he lives that is for certain! Hence most of his friends live further away from him and I would love to be a fly on the wall of his bedsit to hear the stories he has manufactured for why a man in his mid 50′s, with his standing is living there? It would be a fascinating story I am sure! None of which would hold much water or truth, I daresay.
I have caught him out in quite a few lies, things he has told me and forgotten. I have a very good memory, unlike his selective one. I do think he should come with a health warning as he is a dangerous man to have around. He destroys so much in his path.
I am still affected by this man though as you can all readily see here, but I am getting there! As I said the other day, I still find the odd thing will conjure up the nice memories, but that is after all only natural in any break up. I am recovering each day.
I am glad I did not reply to that email yesterday. I would not allow him to get the better of me. That is all that he ever wanted and I shall not let him have it! My triumph not his for a change! The balance is being redressed finally.
I still also find it incredulous that I was fooled by him for so long and that I let him strip my self confidence and self esteem so readily.
I guess I find it all so frustratingly annoying still because he got under my skin, I loved this man very much and I trusted him implicitly even when I fought with myself that there was something wrong.. some hidden agenda.. I kept telling myself that it was just me being wary and cautious. I feel even now he is still endeavouring to annoy me and frustrate me just as he did when we were together. AND THAT is the key to my peace and inner sanctum. I must not let him do that. Yesterday was a prime example of him still trying to make me feel anxious….and guess what I fell for it… but on the brink of falling momentarily into the well, I remembered the footholes (knowledge is power) in the wall and climbed back up to a place of safety. Now I know what he is capable of for certain, I will be watching for a repeat of that sort of behaviour and will be more prepared for him.
As I have said though CD before, I really do not know what keeps you there. You deserve so much more, you are a remarkable woman with an amazing level of tolerance and insight. What does come to mind though when I read of your battles is that life is too short to be so mentally exhausted all the time at the hands of another. Please take care of yourself.
Hi to Trisha- how are you doing? Are we any further forward for writing to each other I wonder. One of these days, I may just open another hotmail/yahoo account and post it here… one I will keep purely for any of us here. I think some of us are in need of a more personal touch than a blog that anyone anywhere can read, even the risk of our N’s seeing things we write?! That did concern me when he and I were still together I must admit. It would not have gone down well at all! Nor would it now, but there we go. That is life.
Take care friends..
HM x
<<>>
Ohhhh boy, is this ever true!
This is the stage that I’m at right now and I can’t seem to make any progress in stopping my behavior that only antagonizes the situation. I guess there’s too much frustration built up over the time that I’ve been exposed to the N in my life…I’m like a pressure cooker about to explode and every incident that’s occurred has brought about an outburst from me…not good in any respect.
How does one manage to get a hold of their emotions may I ask? I have been called an overly patient person by others throughout my life, but I don’t feel that way any longer.
Any suggestions on how to control my frustration? Nothing I say or do seems to work – it only causes more outbursts from the N.
Hi,
Maybe someone can help me out with this. I’m struggling with 2 key factors here. I seem to find them in contradiction. I find myself wanting to protect my husband from his mistakes (which I am not suppose to do, right?) and at the same time have a hard time watching him put more pressure on himself and stepping aside so he can fail on his own, without me getting in the way.
So, what do I do?
The more pressure he puts on himself to deliver unrealistic expectations of perfection – the more failure he suffers. I then suffer as he makes me the scapegoat for his failure…and then in turn the bad behavior comes from the humiliation and I again am left to pick up the pieces of my heart.
Didn’t Kim say she was able to step in and diffuse those situations where Steve was faced with pressure to deliver something he simply was not able to deliver at that time. And Steve could not say, “No, I can’t do that” due to having to live up to the expectations. My husband will NEVER say no. So I (thoughtfully and considerately) ask him to say no, or I tell him it doesn’t work for us (because I’m trying to support his goals)…. This causes me to ALWAYS be the “bad guy”. He resents that I “hold him back” when I’m attempting to help him get to where he says he wants to be. I have not won this battle, so I”m thinking about standing down.
Do I step aside and watch him put more pressures on himself when I KNOW (from experience and intellect) that he is setting himself up for failure??? And perpetuating the false pride as well, by forcing himself to live up to the unrealistic perfect image that he needs to sell to more and more people as he widens his network?
Please help!!!! I’m in a catch 22. If I get in the way I suffer, if I step aside I suffer. What’s the best way to handle it?????????
I would LOVE feedback!!!!
Allison
Hi Everyone,
I believe I have just had a huge breakthrough with my husband. Three days ago, in the morning, I wrote and sent my previous post to this page. That post was about my current position in my war against the narcissism in my husband and proved to be timely for me to have written because I drew on my own personal strength later that evening when my husband came home and he was on edge – hot, dirty and very exhausted after doing hard physical work during yet another Australian heatwave day – even the trivialities of his day were weighing heavily on his mind.
We sat in a cool place together having a cold drink just talking, but as my husband was so self-absorbed, nit-picking, and not very good company – I just said (in a friendly way) – after a while of trying to cheer him up – that I had better go inside to start preparing the evening meal and so off I went to the kitchen. In retrospect I think my husband was looking to pick a fight and wasn’t happy when I just happily moved on and did my own thing – he didn’t get the drama “fix” he might have been looking for.
Within a minute or so my husband came in to watch the evening news, and after a while he went up to have a shower and later returned to continue watching the evening news. I did not notice anything that was not within his normal routine. After a minute or two he got up from the lounge and then stood opposite me at the kitchen counter and he started talking in a very agitated way, but then he immediately escalated to yelling and screaming: –
“Well, I don’t know how to say this so I am just going to say it! DO YOU REALISE WHAT YOU HAVE JUST DONE?!!”
I was extremely surprised and dumbfounded and my brain went a thousand miles an hour trying to recall what “I had just done”. I did not make any attempt to close doors or windows so the neighbours could not hear – because I will not conceal the truth from anyone now. I instantly went into “easy does it” mode and replied in a calm voice and without showing any fear of him (I have had to become an actor out of necessity for this re-parenting job!):
“No… what have I done?”
Right at that moment I remembered my words earlier that day “two wrongs don’t make a right” and I resolved not to engage by not defending myself at all, and to be as emotionless as possible, because his body language and the look in his eyes was such that I had never seen before!
Alarm bells were ringing and I was intimidated and frightened – he has never hit me, and I don’t think that he ever would, but right at that moment I thought that he was capable of it – and my instincts told me……. stay calm…..keep your voice low….do not dispute him or defend yourself in any way …..just wait to find out what HIS problem is …..apologise if warranted but without defence, or choose a different but more appropriate response if necessary – but remain calm, neutral, in control and do not show fear or hurt under any circumstances – stay poised, on guard, be ready to go, but for now just be the parent listening to the tantruming child.
This little voice inside my head kept me calm and in control while he was raging out of control – and I was able to do this by emotionally detaching and concentrating on his body language most of all – instead of just concentrating on what he was yelling about and treating the yelling just like background noise . (Jean, this may help you to overcome getting caught up in any provocation or battles even if your battles are at a greater or lesser scale than this episode of mine.)
Concentrating more on his actions (body language) instead of the what he was saying was amazing and perhaps the most powerful thing I have ever done yet to later bring my husband to account regarding his abusive behaviour – because up until now he did not believe he was ever being abusive – declaring that he does not hit anyone – and he does not understand all this BS psychology about verbal and emotional abuse (how convenient – if he did admit to being an abuser then he might or would have to give up his tools of control!).
The body language I saw was my husband leaning on his knuckles on the kitchen counter, with his body looking big and puffed up, muscles rigid and ready to fight with full eye contact with a glare of anger and perhaps even hate, and, being physically much taller than me, he was leaning over me a little, confronting me face to face, an authoritarian – an angry father yelling and screaming at his naughty, disrespectful child. My husband continued with his tirade….. yelling and screaming the same thing over and over (It is difficult to convey in writing the abusive tone and all the in between put-downs that were delivered by my husband that evening, but I am sure many of the readers here will “hear” the words below.)
“Do YOU realise what YOU have just done! YOU do realise, but YOU JUST WON’T COME OUT AND ADMIT IT! I HAVE TOLD YOU, AND TOLD YOU but YOU KEEP ON DOING IT!”
He was so angry that it was like he couldn’t get out of first gear to get into second gear to tell me what I had done “wrong”.
Finally after me saying several times
“No I don’t know what I have done wrong unless you tell me” . . . . . he then yelled
“YOU (the object) DO THIS EVERYTIME I WANT TO WATCH THE NEWS AND SPORT! YOU GO INTO THE KITCHEN and MAKE AS MUCH CLATTER AS YOU CAN SO THAT I CAN’T HEAR THE TV! And THAT is why I went upstairs TO HAVE A SHOWER because I WANTED TO WATCH A SPECIAL ARTICLE ON THE SPORT but because YOU MADE SO MUCH NOISE I COULDN’T HEAR A THING!”
At last I was informed of what I had done “wrong” and I could respond and genuinely apologise in a respectful tone (even though he did not deserve to be respected at that time) so I said . . .
“I am sorry, I did not realise I was making so much noise, I do apologise.”
However my husband continued to vent and scream at me, virtually just repeating himself over and over, adding more comments as if to give more weight to his argument (as if he needed to – I had already got a clear picture of why he was so angry!).
When finally he paused inviting me again to engage and to defend myself, I only responded once more by saying still in a calm, but firm and respectful tone:
“I have apologised that I made noise while you were trying to watch the news and sport, and I am sorry, but I don’t know what else I can do or say. I cannot change what has happened, I have apologised and I can do no more than that.”
My husband was now pacing like a lion and his continuing yelling and screaming became background noise to me once again so I would remain disengaged (I was still listening though to what he was saying – I wasn’t just blocking out – I was detached like an observer of the abuse so that I could get perspective on what was happening, what to do, how much and what to say, rather being the victim of abuse where I could quite easily get caught up emotionally potentially escalating the situation).
I continued observing his body language and deliberately made sure that he had the last word to say – because it was just like “my husband had assumed the power of his father” and I was the naughty, disrespectful, weak and pathetic child.
When he realised that I was not going engage any further, he stormed back outside to the cool spot where we had sat earlier – I thought . . . Good! he needs to cool off and calm down. I think he expected me to follow – but I had no temptation to do that because he was so irrational and out of control and he needed to calm down before I would even attempt to talk him again about anything, and I believe this was his (either conscious or unconscious) attempt to bring me back down in the pecking order again (below him).
I simply turned off the meal that had just finished cooking, covered it and put it into the refrigerator, then tidied up. My husband returned to the lounge (perhaps since I had not followed him outside I think he had then come back inside still trying to entice me into discussing the matter further – however I think he realised that I was literally unmoved by his power play and he didn’t know what to do or say next because I was not biting – and let’s face it – if he wasn’t looking for a fight right from the moment he got home, then he could have turned to me when the news was on and said (as he is capable of) “Hey, Honey – could you please hold the noise in the kitchen – I just want to watch the news and sport right now?” and I would have happily obliged . . . . or the other option was that he could have simply gone to watch the TV in our bedroom upstairs – far enough away for the noise not to worry him . . . . . but he didn’t do either of those things because he was looking for a fight – a chance to prove he is the “head of the household” by putting HER (the object) back in HER place again (so SHE won’t keep pulling cards out from his House of Cards).
Since he was now inside, I then went outside to the cool place to sit and contemplate the events – my husband soon came out and said in a loud voice
“SO? . . . . WHAT? . . .YOU DON’T RECKON I HAD A RIGHT OR VALID REASON TO SAY SOMETHING?
I wasn’t concerned that the neighbour could hear if she was within earshot (she divorced her abusive husband many years ago and I want as many people as possible to witness what goes on in our household now – because concealing it is LYING and protecting him from himself, and I don’t want to live a lie anymore.)
Well I responded to his question – otherwise he would escalate the situation by blowing up that “I was not talking to him now” . . . so I continued talking in my calm, matter-of-fact voice by replying (mirroring his words where possible)
“You had a right to say something – but you don’t have a right to yell and scream at me.”
Of course my husband’s response was an indignant denial “I DID NOT YELL AND SCREAM AT YOU!” – and guess what he was yelling this denial at me! I calmly and firmly responded “Yes you did.” and my husband yelled “I DID NOT!” and this banter went back and forth several times until he realised I was not going to change my response, or matter-of-fact tone, so he whirled around muttering something and stormed off upstairs and went to bed.
The Drama Queen had finally exited the stage having created the “fix” he needed – remember my previous post? he survives and thrives on drama – but the plot didn’t quite go as he expected!
However, in this encounter I was going to have the final word because his denial of the fact that he was yelling and screaming at me is LYING to himself and to me, and I was not going to let him win that one because I did not want his denial/lie taken to be the truth by him winning the final say – that battle for me had to be won at all costs and I am glad I stuck to my guns!
Right from the moment this difficult behaviour started earlier that evening I was coming from a higher place of understanding and emotional maturity and security (and it has taken me a long time to get there – so I understand that it does not come easily). I now had determined to win this battle – even though I knew it would not be resolved that evening. I gathered some things together and put them in my car – and then went to see my husband upstairs who was lying in bed – tight as a drum – with his back to me, rugs pulled up tightly over him even though it was a heat wave! talk about Emotional Stupidity!
I said “Well I am going for a drive now, and I probably won’t be back tonight.”
My husband said with a hint of panic in his voice but still trying to sound angry “What do you mean . . . I don’t know what you mean??” I repeated “I am going for a drive and I probably won’t be back tonight, so I am going to leave you in peace”. I probably should have told him where I was going, but I wasn’t sure of where I was going myself – so I couldn’t tell him!” My mobile phone battery was flat so I couldn’t call him until later that evening when I could access power supply.
I ended up driving to a nearby town where we have another holiday cottage, but first I pulled into a seaside carpark and watched a huge full moon rising over the ocean – it was beautiful and there was a slight cooling breeze coming over the water – I could not have found a better place for self-soothing!
After a couple of hours, and feeling sleepy by now, I went to the cottage, put my mobile phone on charge, and went to bed thinking it was too late to ring my husband just in case he was asleep and if he had tried to contact me then there would be missed calls (but there were no missed calls from him), and if he tried to contact me from now on – he could – but I wasn’t holding my breath or hoping he would call – in fact I wasn’t even wanting to talk to him again that night!
At 5.30am the next morning, after having planned to wait until my husband had gone to work, I headed off towards home – but much to my surprise my mobile phone rang and it was my husband, asking where I was – and I told him. He said he was out looking for me and was at the cottage – I said I had just left there and was on my way home. What was to happen next was something I rarely hear from my husband – a genuine, remorseful apology!
He said “About last night – you know I find it difficult to apologise at the best of times – but I do sincerely apologise for the way I behaved last night – I don’t know what came over me – and I didn’t sleep much last night thinking about how I could have done things differently.”
I simply responded “Well, I appreciate your apology, but this behaviour is unacceptable”.
My husband said “I know, and as I said – I sincerely apologise, can we meet back at home to talk about this further?”
I said “Well I am going home now if you want to talk” . . . . and that is what we did.
I asked my husband what else he could have done instead of blowing up at me – he knew the answers without me telling him. We discussed how short fused he is with not only me but with other people too, and what factors may be contributing to that – and what could be done to address those problems – including going back to see the doctor about his insomnia (my husband stubbornly refuses to get more help with his insomnia even though he did get some relief when he was on Stillnox, and after a few days was more like his old self again – he is afraid of getting addicted to sleeping tablets – which is commendable but there are other options). We discussed the stages of sleep in the sleep cycle that can be disturbed by excessive alcohol consumption (Thanks to MR and Kim).
Later that evening when he arrived home we continued our discussions and we spoke about his anxiety levels – some of the outward signs being chewing his nails until they bleed, hyper-activity, hyper-vigilance, hyper-sensitivity, impatience, poor temper control, using alcohol to try and calm his nerves and/or relax – but perhaps finding that this doesn’t always help these days.
My husband seemed relieved that someone else would see how much anxiety he suffers, and he started to talk about it – the conversation then developed into other areas, and we also discussed how on the previous evening, during his tirade of abuse, that his body language to me looked like The Authoritarian, an angry father berating his naughty, disrespectful, weak, pathetic child – my husband nodded – and I said that I don’t know if that is what he thinks is a normal way for family members to talk to each other, but he is not my father – and my real father, my brother, my son, and my son-in-law would never treat me badly or speak to me that way. I told him that I am considering going and talking to the family doctor and the local domestic violence officer about the situation.
My husband was shocked and protested that he wasn’t abusing me and he would never ever hit a woman . I persisted that he was intimidating and I was frightened, and that is sufficient grounds to talk to a DV officer. He was panicking that I was going to get a restraining order, I said I don’t know what options are available to me, but his body language was such that I thought he could hit me and I am not going to wait until I get hit before I get help for me, and get help for him.
I said that recently he touched on his relationship with his father and how he said he will never forgive his father for how his father treated him as he was growing up and as an adult. I validated what he had recently said by saying that I had witnessed and was appalled/heartbroken at how his father treated him as a young adult when we first met and for the next 10 years or so until he died. I said I often used to stand up to his father, and his father did not like me for that. My husband remembered that.
My husband reflected on something his father had said to him when he was about 21 and I felt that my husband was being open and vulnerable enough to ask him – “What was it like when you were growing up” He instantly became defensive and fierce again – “Don’t go there! I don’t want to talk about it!”
I said that is OK – you don’t have to talk about it with me, but if you can’t talk to anyone about it – then get a pen and paper, and go somewhere private – and start writing down everything you remember – write a book if you have to – then rip it to shreds and burn it – and in doing this you will release some anger – bit by bit. You may even find you will get a different perspective on some of the things. I suggested again to him that maybe it is time to forgive his father – not for what his father did or said to him – but only to forgive his father for not knowing how to be a better parent.
We discussed many things that night, and the next day when my husband went to work he rang me up and said “I just wanted to tell you that I LOVE YOU, and you are the most important person in my life.” I was stunned and speechless – my husband was so sincere. He rarely tells anyone that he loves them – although I do know that he loves me. Sometime ago he told our son and daughter that he loves them which was a big thing for him to do – and now totally out of character and out of the blue he has rung me up to tell me something from his heart, risking vulnerability by telling me that he loves me. My husband did not need to make that phone call to me as we had already reached a place of peace again between us – nevertheless he did!
Finally I believe I have some built some real trust and attachment – and that is a big part of what I believe true love is – however we are still a work in progress, and I am glad I have hung in there! Thank you Kim and Steve – who would have thought that “metal teeth” would be so attractive!
CD, Australia.
Hi Hm,
I miss you. Things have been hectic here. I am working and going to school right now and I miss taling to you. Well things are not good right now with my N boyfriend. If you remember he gave me another ring Jan 30, and was on medication, seeing a counsler and doing God. Reading the bible, church and t.v. programs. It lasted a month, that was it before he let his former self out again. It was over a stupid thing, like calling my daughter up while I was in school. I didn’t tell him that she was going to a friends for about an hour and a half. I didn’t think he would call during the time she was gone but he did. I did say I was sorry I didn’t tell him before I left for school and because she was going to be home before 7:30 that night, I didn’t think of telling him thinking that he would call her later taht evening. Well I was wrong. I told him that I was sorry and that I would never do that again but that was not enough for him. I would not argue that night, especially afer a full day of work and 3 1/2 hours going to school, it was 10:30 at night and I had enough. He didn’ think so but I cut it short. But not to worry he brought it up 4 days later. I told him that he suckered me in again, and believed that he could change and I also told him that no amount of pills he could swallow or bible reading would ever help him!!! I am so mad at myself for thinking he could be nice. He was for a month, not long enough for me. I don’t know what I will do now. I do know that I don’t want this in my life anymore and I am discouraged about his actions. So I am right there with you in those awful feelings of yuk and this time I put myself there again!!! I am so tired of him he is back like he has never left and I am so sad. Where did the guy of one month go??? Did he need that drama fix that everyone talks about? I am just so stupid, I hate what I do to myself. I am so sad and mad at me. I better go and chill or do more homework. Please talk to me, I need a friend.
Hey Trisha,
You need a hug, so here’s a big ‘un from me. Don’t ever call yourself stupid – you made decent decisions at the time with perhaps bad information, and you hoped for the best.
I’ve been given good advice on this website, but I just can’t bring myself to do what has been suggested. And things have only gotten worse in my situation. I am going to have to step up and take my medicine and swallow the bitter pill, but I’ve been told that I will feel better once I do that. But I just can’t bring myself to follow the wisdom offered here, and now I don’t know how much longer I can continue with this N in my life.
“Where did the guy of one month go?”, you ask. He was an illusion – a shining mirage in a desert wasteland of loneliness, emptiness and isolation…the closer you get to the glowing image of the man you thought you loved, the more it fades and disappears and moves away in the shimmering distance…it was all an illusion.
But you have to keep moving through the barren wasteland, even if it’s one step at a time, and eventually you’ll work your way through the desert and come to a much better place, where everything is real and solid.
Hugs to you.
Wow CD, so glad for you!!! I love those breakthrough moments, if only I was in that place where the breakthrough actually pushed forward to take me to the place of healing.
I truly need some advice here. I posted a couple times last week about my current struggles. I am torn between stepping in and taking action that will really upset my husband, or stepping aside and trying to get through the days and figure my own stuff out.
If I go to some of the people that he is close with and trying to do business with (friends of his) and let them know of our financial struggles and current stressors – he will be completely embarrassed and upset by my “getting in the way”. If I let them know my heart felt concerns for his stress with not being able to say no to them, he will look weak and like a fool for having his wife step in.
How do I get around this? Also, how do I seperate our accounts when he is the one making the $ and I am home with kids? Our accounts are in our names and what we are working with to continue paying the mortgage is HIS retirement account… Any advice on that?
I don’t know what I need to do at this point. How can I defend my boundaries and protect our family without causing more conflict and embarrassing him to the point that he does something awful?
Please give me some feedback,
Allison
Trisha,
I feel awful for you. I know exactly how disappointing (to say the least) it feels when you come off of that good feeling you had for how ever long it lasted. With me it was 3 weeks. 3 weeks of progress, holding hands, respect, talking, intamacy. And then like you said, right back to the drama. I also feel extremely discouraged. I too get terribly angry with myself for becoming vulnerable and open again. That is so hard for me in the first place because I know it won’t last long until I have to muster up the courage and strength to deal with the N behavior.
Don’t call yourself stupid. I NEVER feel better when I talk that way to myself, even if I feel it. You are a caring person who knows she wants a better life. There’s nothing stupid to be said about the kind of loyalty we have towards the N. We care about these people even though they do terrible things to us sometimes. They are sick, we need to figure out how to be and stay healthy and work on that!
Good luck! Try not to beat yourself up. Nobody deserves to be emotionally beaten. Try to focus on something positive that helps you remember who YOU are; rather than let who HE is take away your right to happiness.
Allison,
Thank you so much for your words. Today was no better, I had an awful day at work(sub Teacher at a middle school), came home called the N, he was critical and upset because Istopped and got dinner for me and my daughter and I was a little late. I guess I was supposed to report in, so instead of coming home at 4:30 I was home and calling him at 5:10. I did call him back up and asked him where the boyfriend of one month of bliss went to. I asked him point blank why he is critical of me, why he has no compassion, understanding or anything. He ended up hanging up on me. Allsion, I don’t feel that I can do this anymore. There is no good reason to do this, we have no kids together, not married, he is out of a job, and if he cannot offer me tenderness what does he have to give?? I just cannot believe the night and day difference in this man. On top of that I have a 14 year old daughter telling me taht she was right, that it was just an act on his part and I should have know better. Again, I thought that counseling, medication and religion seemed to work for 1 month. I still cannot believe the N is back just like before. Please tell me how to hanndle this.
Trisha
Jean, Thanks for the hug, I will take them anywhere I can get them. It sure was a great miarge, I just can’t imagine doing that for 1 month, what an actor and for what purpose? I wonder if he doesn’t miss that same miarge? I am probably spelling it wrong, just upset. I miss it, but I don’t have the strengh to chase it.
Trisha
Hi Allison,
Where I am at now is that I am going for it! I am growing “metal teeth” as Kim puts it – I figure my marriage has to be put on the line in the war against the narcissist in my husband – whatever the outcome – I have to become more powerful than the narcissist to make my husband face reality, and that requires me thoroughly believing in myself and striving for what is morally and legally right, and what is best for me while pursuing my own goals and serenity.
The most desired outcome for me is that my husband does face reality and his narcissistic traits (and alcoholism), and the less desired outcome is that he may decide to leave the marriage because he does not want to face reality – that he is happy to continue within his “comfort” zone to achieve personal and financial success – by his own commitment to hard work with his good traits and management, but also with some very anti-social and exploitative traits that are potentially damaging to others, including me. I am prepared to accept the less desired outcome if that should happen – I love my husband – but I can let him go if that is what he wants to do – my happiness does not depend on being married to him – and I think it is that level of confidence that gives me the real power that I have in my marriage at the moment. But then my children have grown and flown – where you still have yours dependent upon you and naturally you would want to keep your family unit together – the same way Kim did, but had to face some hard cold realities.
My husband sees who he is as what he does for a living and therefore he draws his “identity and status” from his business success. He often says he would go mad if he couldn’t work (because he would have to face his anxieties), but he couldn’t work for anyone else because he has to be the boss!
But what you do for a living is not who you are inside – and my husband is afraid to look at who he is inside, his core values and beliefs and what makes him tick.
My husband does not respect “weak” people and he can be very tyrannical and formidable – but every time I gather together the courage and take the appropriate action against any unacceptable behaviour I can see when he is literally “disarmed” and forced to face himself.
The gaps are all so important – but my husband’s “superior attitude” is still strongly and frequently masking his inferiority complex. I must say though that my husband is extremely capable in what he does and we now have had financial security since we have been in business together – but he does have problems with trust, dealing with his emotions and anger management, lying and exploitation, fakeness, etc.
We didn’t always have financial security though – before we went into business together and we were on wages, our children and I were given very little money to feed and clothe ourselves, while my husband had no conscience about spending money on his own pursuits of pleasure (eg: alcohol, smoking, gambling and other pursuits & toys). It created a lot of dissension and arguments between us – but with no good outcome. My family frequently gave the children and I clothes, food and money just to survive – my husband did not know about this because what I know now as his “false pride” would have reared its ugly head – and I would have copped a heap of abuse over HIS embarrassment and hidden guilt. In retrospect I was suffering financial abuse – but felt powerless and downtrodden because he was the breadwinner and had the “power” and in that way I feel I can empathise with your situation. Ironically – I have looked after the book-keeping since we have been in business together – and I am qualified and experienced to be able to do that – but my husband still feels he has the right to spend money without being answerable to me, but he always says something derogatory if I ever spend money on myself – even though money is not a problem for us now and I work 60-80 hours per week in the business! So I am still getting that same message from him – that he is the breadwinner and I am beholden to him! So I am still suffering financial abuse mentally and emotionally, but I will sometimes buy things as I need them and face the music later, or I will frequently pay for things out of my own income from my own business because of his miserliness and meanness.
On the other hand my husband can be very generous (especially to others) but he has to be the one to make the decision to spend the money.
I don’t think it would be wise of me to tell you which road to choose because I cannot possibly know all the details and dynamics of your situation, and I am not qualified to give financial advice, but I will say the following things for you to contemplate:
• When in doubt about what to do – then do nothing – until you find the right solution or response – do not support or denounce your husband’s ventures – be neutral and observe. Beware of when you are being manipulated – the decoying arguments that set you up to be distracted from him doing just as he pleases.
If your husband tries to goad you into an interaction when you are not ready – then just say you don’t know what to think, do or say right now, but you will let him know once you have had time to consider the matter (Magic Scissors). My husband hates it when he does not get an instant response, because he likes to know what I am thinking at all times to be in control – but he has to learn that sometimes I simply don’t immediately know what to think and that he can’t control everyone and everything all the time!
• Once you have chosen your position in matters of concern after much enlightening research, serious contemplation and/or seeking appropriate support – be consistent in your stance – have your sights set on the result you want and see it through, make it watertight and plan to win the battle! Narcissists do not trust easily and will exploit or take advantage of inconsistency or a lack of confidence to get their own way. Get in touch with your core values and beliefs and love and accept yourself with true pride and confidence to be able to powerfully confront the Narcissism – see my comment regarding Gam-Anon below;
• Show your approval and appreciation to your husband whenever he does something that is humble, honest, wholesome or good. Example: “I love it when you read a story to the girls, they enjoy that time with you so much!” or “I really appreciate it when you….” or “I am really impressed when you…..” and so on. Think about things he does that you can genuinely speak your approval of him, but pick the most natural times to speak your approval. (I think that the narcissist in my husband developed from trying to meet his father’s expectations by having to work as hard as he could to make as much money as he could so as to achieve “status and success” – in other words he had to move mountains to try and impress and win the love of his narcissistic father when he was alive – and that legacy of trying to impress and please has continued to exist until this present day, but I am working on him to show him that it is OK to just be.) In showing approval for your husband for the honest, good and humble things he does – it sends an unspoken message that he does not have to make big bucks to win your approval. I am not suggesting that you have expected him to bring in the big bucks, but somewhere in his life he may have got the message that making big bucks is expected of him and equates with identity, success and status – like my husband did – that you are only “someone” if you are rich, and/or mix with the rich and famous or high flyers.
• Challenge your husband to impress you by filling his gaps and/or doing more of the humble and good things that he does. You might think that your husband is not concerned about impressing you – but I am quite amazed since growing some “metal teeth” that my husband does want to impress me but rarely reveals it – he will mostly conceal this trait by appearing aloof and haughty (avoiding vulnerability).
• Because of the traits of narcissism, then naturally narcissists hear lots of disapproval for what they do or say from their partner/spouse or others – so it is important for them to hear some honest praise and approval to know that they are not all bad and to point them in a healthier direction.
Follow Kim’s advice to you under “Accountability”, open a separate account even though your husband is the only breadwinner at this stage (I would suggest you put a little away as often as you can for you and your girls for an emergency – get your own income via a small job if you can for a little financial security and independence for yourself. Also in the long term it is best not to be too long out of the workforce to keep your employment history as current as possible on your resume).
As Kim very importantly says also – call the gambling help-line – that what your husband is doing is a form of gambling – and try find some common ground when talking to your husband about matters of concern. I would strongly suggest also that you attend Gam-Anon meetings – these are for the family and friends of loved ones who gamble – there are no membership fees – only donations if and when you can afford it – it is a 12 Step Programme just the same as the Al-Anon program which I got so much out of for overcoming my co-dependence, and instigating my own recovery through awareness and self-growth – overcoming my powerlessness by rediscovering and developing my self-worth, inner strength, wisdom and peace (serenity).
If your husband finds out you are attending these sorts of meetings, he probably would think you are crazy at first – that he doesn’t gamble – but after a while you may find how to confidently confront him (and his costly liaisons with his friends/associates) from what you learn in the Gam-Anon program and through other members in your group.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Allison,
I rarely write, but see so much of myself in you…
I’ve written one time to you previously-perhaps in December?
Anyway, the day I chose to let my husband’s family/friends/associates know about his gambling and NPD was a very dramatic and incomprehensible day for me…It was this past Christmas.
It was scary and liberating. It was gut-wrenching and embarrassing.
It was freeing and life-changing.
But, whatever it was THAT day…it became the TRUTH to many people. And…I know this can be different to N’s, but my N was totally ready for it to all be over and wasn’t mad much to my surprise!!! He totally felt humiliated but was so glad to let the personna go. He had already admitted everything to me, so his gambling being “given up” to friends/family that were necessary to be accountable for were a necessary evil.
CD’s advice is just amazing…I wish I could give more advice and will later but generally, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone…He is pushing you to do what you need to do for you (and for him), you just don’t know it yet. The reason he chose you is because you are a strong, truthful person and he is not. Use that to your advantage. In the end, hopefully, you both will be stronger, like Kim and Steve.
All of Kim’s advice has been so life-changing and empowering! The struggles to get there are challenging, but keep on.
Feel free to email me, my husband is a gambler who only gambled w/ business ventures and I was soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo in your shoes for years….my email is: tracstrand@comcast.net
Allison…things will get better….stay strong!!! Please, keep updating us!
Lynn
Hi Trisha
I have responded to you 3 days ago but I see my comment is awaiting moderation still.. a glitch in the system perhaps. I will see if it gets cleared today if not then I will copy and paste it into another comment. I will be away until next week though and with no access to a pc but rest assured I am here in spirit and will be back next week.
I am seriously considering setting up a new email address just to post here.. okay so not ideal but if we all did that just for use here then it would at least mean we could share more personal anecdotes.
I am always a little wary of saying too much here that could point back to me as who knows if my ex N will see it.. he would not take kindly to some of the details about him, albeit they are factual comments of his appalling behaviour.
I am just a breath away Trisha .. .sensing your struggle in all this. I will say though now although I cannot or should not give advice to you,.. you have to follow your own heart, but what have you to lose by ending it? You may just have an awful lot more to gain though!
All I can share with you though is my own experience and that is that I can honestly say with my hand on my heart as I do, that I feel SO MUCH BETTER since ending it with my N 5 weeks ago. I feel like a HUGE weight has been lifted from me. I felt powerless during that relationship as I had not been aware how manipulative and deceitful he really was. I fell for him, hook, line and sinker and believed at last that my knight in shining armour had arrived in my life .. a man I had thought I was going to grow old with……right….grow old maybe….but yes ahead of my time for every minute of every day I was involved with him. He nearly destroyed me.. my self esteem and self confidence in myself and my abilities to accomplish anything were becoming seriously undermined. My career was failing because I spent all my time thinking about him and I and had no energy for anything or anyone else. The only time I felt any sense of relief was when I was caring for my granddaughter. I felt as though I had been robbed from the inside out.
My life is already looking so much brighter, my business is picking up and my old self has returned back home where she belongs, inside my heart and mind.
Take care all of you.
xx
CD,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. I am really struggling here. I want so desperately to build a partnership with this man, despite his ever effort to live like he is on his own.
I appreciate your advice and I thought long and hard about what you said about doing nothing until I know better what to do. That is one of my biggest weaknesses. I am always so insistent on changing the outcome of the bad situation. I often make things worse for myself by attempting to take action rather than take inventory and assess the situation.
I hate the feeling of being lost. I hate feeling like this so much that I try to deny the feelings. In the process, the denial causes the feelings to get worse and turn into resentment and disgust. Therefore I never go through the process to get through the process thus it feels even worse.
Thank you again for the feedback! I want to reach out to someone for help with being able to talk to him, someone he respects and will listen to – I just don’t know if it’s the right move.
Allison
Hi CD,
I have been so busy lately but my staff passed on that you had a had a breakthrough with your husband and I was so happy for you about that. I haven’t been following the posts here but I did see this one and the metal teeth is now a great thing for you to remember. It usually gets worse before it gets better I have found and you have laid so much ground work that I am sure you will win this battle. Your will is stronger than his! What is he fighting for? His own stupid pride, while you are fighting for all that you have both built together.
You certainly need to do something about you not being paid. Set it up so you both get a salary as soon as you can with your accountant and a lawyer supporting you if necessary.
Anyway I just wanted to drop in and really say hang in there now as you have worked so long and hard for this and from what Kerry who approves the posts here told me (she was so excited for you) it sounds like your husbands false pride is starting to show some cracks.
The trick now is being tough as nails but also show him that you are really ready to not only stand by him but also take the lead if he lets the whole thing (the he knows best act) come tumbling down.
Be using your 4 legged stool exercise and your bill of rights exercises now too – you are making a stand for a better way of living, not only for yourself but for the two of you.
We are all behind you here and if you really need me please contact our help desk. I fully believe you are ready to take this on on your own now however but either way – you play to win!
All the best,
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
Thank you for your comments and very much appreciated advice and support. I am not surprised you mentioned the 4 legged stool and Bill of Rights. With each small success I have against the narcissism in my husband – whether that success is permanent or short lived, I always revert to “Back From The Looking Glass” (and the exercises) to do a refreshed study of them or an update on the gaps, etc – sometimes something in your e-books needs to be reinforced in me or it becomes more meaningful or relevant as I face each challenging and usually dramatic event.
I probably need to clarify though that my husband does not physically stop me from spending money most of the time, he learned some years ago after me standing my ground (and after being in Al-Anon for quite some time) that I have earned and HAVE the right for some financial independence when I became what I consider a 50/50 partner in the business, not just on paper but in physical worth of what I do (book-keeping, architectural design and drafting, etc).
However my husband residually continues to try and make me feel guilty if I spend money – especially on myself. It is quite chauvinistic of him I feel – he likes to be in control of everyone and everything all the time – and if he can make me feel guilty, then he will have created a situation where I am mentally and emotionally ingratiated or physically enslaved to him.
So I get that being paid a wage solely for my use would change the dynamic of my situation, but at the same time impractical for our needs. Having said that – both he and I are paid a wage each from our business, but it becomes combined income in our personal account out of necessity to run our household and other expenses we have.
The problem with my husband financially abusing me mentally and emotionally does not lie just with him – the problem also lies with me in not knowing yet what to say or do that would permanently make him “shut-up” with his disapproving remarks whenever I spend money on myself (which is rare) when really I know he would take the top brick off the chimney for me! (False-pride again??)
I am not a spendthrift – quite the opposite in fact – I grew up happy with very little material things, and the early years of my marriage were years of severe financial hardship – so I appreciate the value of good financial conscience and stability.
It is time therefore that I contemplate a solution to the BS remarks – it is manipulation after all – not to stop me spending money – but to keep me mentally and emotionally down and controlled, owing him, and being “owned” by him – a huge insecurity and false-pride on his part. I think it gets back to assuring him that I am not going to leave him, but this form of abuse has to stop – I just have to find the most effective and appropriate way of doing that – and I think exposing this trait of his to someone he respects and would least like to know is the right way to go – our friends already know by their own judgement – but I don’t want to compromise our friendships with these good people by involving them in a way more than what they already naturally know – so I will know who the “right person” is when opportunity knocks .
Your articles on Verbal Abuse and Identity have been so invaluable – thank you again, Kim – I’m hangin’ in there!
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD,
Perfect timing it seems – I actually saw this post so it is meant to be!
I don’t have much time again – so much happening here it is unbelievable!
My first reaction to what you are needing is just looking over the top of your
glasses (if you wear them) at him and otherwise ignoring him.
You could also say “I won’t give you a hard time if you don’t give me one” In a
serious tone at the same time and again get on with it. Not letting them engage
you or get a hook in while showing your disapproval is the most of it.
I hope there has been some lessening of his verbal tirades – that would be the
most important thing I would suggest needs limiting.
As for his drinking too – I cannot recommend the books “Seven Weeks to Sobriety”
highly enough which you can buy on line. If he doesn’t get some biochemical
support cutting out drinking cold turkey will undoubtably worsen his depression.
Sorry I know you probably know most of this. I am just glad that I caught a couple
of your posts because we are all thinking of you here!
You are doing great!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Lynn,
I like how you put it to Allison and hope you don’t mind me taking your advice for myself too.
“He is pushing you to do what you need to do for you (and for him), you just don’t know it yet. The reason he chose you is because you are a strong, truthful person and he is not. Use that to your advantage. In the end, hopefully, you both will be stronger, like Kim and Steve.”
How you put this is a great reminder when being “tested” to keep calm and focused on the bigger picture.
I am looking forward to hearing from you again soon.
Hi HM,
It is good to hear you are doing so well – and it is good for many of us here also to know that life does go on when a relationship ends.
I am hanging in there because both my husband and I have had a lot of “growing up” to do and I figure that I have only had a little more than 12 months of following Kim & Steve’s program out of nearly 34 years of marriage – so I am going to give it a lot more time yet, especially in the light of some real progress. The alternative would be a very messy and protracted divorce, a break up of our family unit, a loss of a lot of what we have worked for all these years to lawyers – in direct detriment to our financial security close to our retirement years – and both my husband and I do not want that – and we both still have love for each other.
I have a feeling that life will be good for you now you are enlightened in Narcissism – keep up the good work.
Hi Allison & Trisha,
If you are both feeling quite in despair at the moment – self-soothe, find your centre again, look after your basic needs first and then pamper yourself as well – a relaxing bubble bath and music – take your mind off everything that is troubling you. This reparenting job is hard work and you need to look after yourselves first to be able to recharge your batteries for whatever comes next. Try not to devote all your thinking time to your relationship – if consumed by it then solutions will find it difficult to get through your crowded thoughts. Focusing on your own goals helps with this.
Try to lower your anxiety levels and you will rise above the challenges and see them better for what they really are in order to be able to deal positively with them.
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Kim,
I have reading glasses! (LOL) I like your suggestions and so readily available! My husband is very sensitive to my facial expressions – so that “librarian” look over the top of my glasses with a suitable comment might be enough to let him know when he is out of line! Thanks a lot for that!
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
Good evening everyone
How are you all? Doing okay I hope and coping!
I have had a bit of a funny couple of days, I have been thinking of my ex N .. remembering the good times we had and the plans we had made for the future (well my plans I guess more than his come to think of it, he rarely talked of wishes and dreams as we know that is often something they cannot contemplate or imagine!)
I know I will be okay in another few days, I guess it’s because I am going to a wedding this weekend that we were both going to and now I am going alone. That in itself feels odd and it has made me feel quite sad this evening. Then I came in tonight, logged on and there is an email from him asking if its this weekend (He knows it is!) and wishing me a safe trip and to give the bride and groom his best wishes.
One of his friends contacted me and said that they were sorry to hear we had split up and wondered if we could resolve it or whether I had to give him a proverbial kick in the *** if he deserved it and that life was too short to be unhappy with him. I wondered then for a moment if this good friend of his maybe knew something about him that maybe he was not letting on as such. He has said he will keep in touch with me so you never know I may well find out if they have their concerns about his behaviour too from the past. He certainly made no attempt to see any of his friends in the 2 years we were together and I never met any of them. Yet he had met the majority of my friends and we regularly socialised with them.
Oh well….life goes on as we know it does and tomorrow I will be busy travelling to the wedding destination and a busy weekend ahead and I know in time these sad and reflective moments will pass.. maybe one day there will be someone else in my life to share the triumphs and tribulations with but for now I am enjoying spending time with my family and getting my life back on track.
I do not regret my life with him though, we had some special times.
I will write to you properly CD when I return.
Take care everyone
xx
Hi Hm,
Thank you so much for your words and the virtual hug!!! I do have a question for you. Why can a woman like the woman your ex married put up with it, I like to think of myself as able to cope and deal with a lot, but what does that woman have that you or I don’t?? Maybe i am too sensitive, maybe I just should have laughed it off, ignored it, (hard to do) or what, I feel that somehow I failed. But I have to tellyou one thing he did to shoot himself in the foot. I got spoiled in that one month. I want more and I will not settle for less. That says it all for me, I am not going back for another bad ride, I want the good ride, the taken care of woman that I know he can do, and if he cannot do it on a solid basis, guess I have to find me a man who can. Sounds tough, but I really did get spoiled and I want more. He should never have been so nice, it makes it easier to see the junk when it came at me again. We will talk soon I hope. I hope you are okay, let me know, we will talk soon.
Trisha
Hi Trisha – I have not seen very many of your posts but it sounds like you are having a very hard time with a break up or weather or not to break up. I usually try to catch up on my reading during work so I move threw them very quickly. What I can say is the HM and CD are very insightful. I have on many occasions gained strength from their words. I too am struggling with a break up from an N. I know all to well the confusion and emotional upset that goes along with loving, leaving and trying to find myself. Here is my story…..
I left my N husband of fifteen years a year ago, for the last time, but still feel as though I love him very much. With what I have learned about NPD I have waffled back and forth over the last year with finding my strength, knowing leaving was the best thing for me and missing him deeply, our life and wanting him back. Sometimes these feelings are because I want him and I want him to want me (my ego I’m sure) and other times it is because of our children. I would like very much to raise them together. We have five children together. Two are grown and three still at home.
Before I even moved out of the house he signed up on an internet dating site. Within a week of me moving out he started seeing someone. Then a month later he started seeing someone else that he is still seeing which has been very painful for me. There have been several others over the course of the year but just one that has stuck around (or he has kept). They have broken up several times and gotten back together. Each time I think just maybe he will realize what he had and try to repair the damage that has been done to our family. But much to my dismay he has shown no signs what so ever that he has any interested in me or putting our family back together. However, when after eleven months of waiting, I finally finalized the divorce, he became angry. If I bring up getting back together or getting help for our problems he says “you’re the one that finalized the divorce” or “you’re the one that ripped our family apart”. He says this as if it was not him that was carrying on with other women or telling lies all the time. When I ask him what he expected me to do he has no response. There are still a few things we have jointly that he is reluctant to release to me including some of my personal things. He has just recently closed our joint checking account because it was going to start costing him money to keep it open. There is a judgment for money he promised to pay me and has not. I am scared to take him to court to get payment because I do not want to upset him (further ruin my chances of reconciliation). I do not want to make things worse for my kids and I don’t want to make things worse between him and me (still hoping I guess). I could really use the money to support my kids; we are barely making ends meet. I don’t believe he is any better off but somehow he can afford to date, buy new clothes and drive long distances to see his girlfriend and take time off from work. I have the children 80% of the time and he pays support base on a 50/50 split. There are other financial responsibilities we agreed to share that he is not upholding. When I bring it up he says he is paying me the support we agreed to as if none of the other stuff matters. I just don’t know what to do. I am so torn. I want to protect myself legally by getting a court order for custody, visitation and child support but at the same time I don’t want to rock the boat. He is paying the amount we agreed on (although it is not enough) and he does see the children (not as much as agreed on). My guess is there really is no hope of us getting back together. I would not take him back unless he agreed to get help or at least admit there was a problem. I too have seen the goodness and wont settle for anything less. I’m also told that two people with cluster B personality disorders together is like putting a match to gasoline, eventually you get an explosion. Someday I will over come my depression and dependency disorder (which apparently is different than co-dependency) but will that be enough for us to have a successful relationship; especially after I validated his greatest fear of abandonment? I don’t know.
I often wonder if it would be easier if I did not have to see him all the time. There are times when I honestly believe I can feel his emotion. I usually know several seconds before he calls that he is thinking about me/wanting something from me. I know it sounds strange or at the very least unusual. I have evaluated these events many times and all too often everything in my world is just fine and I can’t figure out why I’m feeling a knot in my stomach. Then he calls and it becomes clear. I have reminded myself over and over again that I am better off with out him. I am reminded every time I read the struggles of the women that write to this post. My life with out him is calm. I no longer have to deal with his drama. I don’t worry every night what kind of mood he is going to be in (only the days he has the kids). I am free to make decisions on my own without worry of criticism. All of my common sense tells me to keep moving forward and don’t look back. Yet, sometimes what I feel for him is so overwhelming it feels like divine intervention. I don’t know how else to explain it. It is unnatural for me to know the things I know about his life now and for my feelings to be as strong as they are. I made the mistake of revealing these feelings to him. I told him that I felt that God wanted us to work things out. I told him I think he has NPD. I went as far as outlining a few things that he has done that make me believe that. I tried to explain it as best as I could with as much love and compassion as possible. Of course his response was defensive and there is nothing wrong with him. He went as far as to say he thought I had bi-polar disorder. I can see why he would say this, for much of our marriage I was very moody and would become depressed but did not show any other criteria for that condition. I am seeing a counselor for my depression and I am making progress. It has been hard for me to look at my part in the dissolution of our marriage but at the same time it has given me the strength and knowledge to seek self improvement. He told me “there was no way he would consider reconciliation after what I did. He has moved on with his life, he has a partner and he meets or exceeds all of her expectations”. I find that odd because they break up every three months, she rarely comes over to his house to spend time with him and the children and she has her profile on a dating site. Hmmm. You asked in one of your posts “what do these other women have that you or I or whomever has. Well I believe that these women have the ability to continue to serve their N supply where as I know with me I was constantly holding my husband accountable for his short comings. Even if I praised and complimented him it was not enough. He somehow felt inferior to me and was trying to prove is superiority all the time. I often felt that it was not me he wanted that any women would do. Because of the feeling it was hard for me to be affectionate with him. At one point, about four years before I left him, we were in a good phase discussing the quality of our marriage. I had made the decision several months before to be agreeable, none confrontational, and to have sex with him whenever he wanted. I did not express any grievances at all. Therefore, the marriage was good. He was treating me nice and being the partner I needed him to be, mostly. Anyway, not knowing that I had consciously decided to withhold my opinions from him his comment on the good quality of our relationship was that “I had finally ACCEPTED being his wife”. I was mortified. I had given up all of my power, thoughts, ideas, opinions, hopes and dreams and now I was a “good wife”. After that I sank into a depression and lost myself completely. After my suicide attempt 3 years ago I thought maybe he had a wake up call. For almost a year I thought we had won the battle. Then I discovered he was involved with yet another women and he was telling lies that were so shallow I could clearly see that there were no boundaries in our relationship at all. It was at that point that I became so angry I filed for divorce. I felt as though for fifteen years I had been living a complete lie. The depth of betrayal was so deep it shattered my core. I wanted to die. What kept me alive was that I could not imagine my children being raised by this man alone. This last year he has proven that HE is his number one priority. I am happy every day I wake up and have one more day with my kids. I am amazed by them. Especially when I am feeling down, I look at them and realize that they are incredible people. They are bright and insightful. And I made them. They are a part of me. If they are that great then I must be at least a little okay. I draw on their strength when I can’t find my own and I strive to be a better person for them when I can’t do it just for me. Those days are becoming less and less and I find myself taking better care of myself physically and emotionally because it is what I need to do for me. I still miss my husband and the life we had and the dreams we made but it takes two people wanting it to make it so. One thing that I have started doing is at dinner time I sit with the kids and ask them to tell me at least one good thing that happened in their day. Then I tell them one good thing that happened in my day. It helps change the focus from what we do not have (daddy) to the things we do have. So with all of that said, do take care of yourself, find a little joy in each day, look for strength in others when you can’t find it in yourself and remember to always love yourself.
C-USA
Cindy, Wow, you are awesome. You are strong and you keep going girl. I don’t feel that I am in the position to offer much guidance, but we are all in the same position. The part when you finally finalized the divorce and he was blaming you for doing it sounds like he was just waiting again to blame someone(you) for his wrongs. I have found that I “caused” a lot of the bad things he did, according to him. Sort of like the devil made me do it kind of thing and so I was the devil. I can relate to a lot of your feelings of still loving him, wanting him back, and yes depression. I think that goes along with the N person either in your life or even if they are gone. They are so hurtuful, and don’t seem to understand the hurt they cause, or even care. My thoughts are with you. Don’t worry about what you may say or do to further hurt the relationship, after all what would you be hurting? I always thought that a couple BOTH tries to and does what needs to be done just to get along, not just one walking on egg shells. I don’t know what else to say, but you are right HM and CD are wonderful, listen to them, I am and they help. Peace always to you.
Dear Kim
I have subscribed to your ebook and workbook but I’m not sure really if my husband is NPD. He has always relied on me for everything (to explain I am a people pleaser) He handed over all finances to me when we moved in together 20 years ago, he askes me for a certain amount every week which is spent on diesel for his ute and lotto, otherwise he wants nothing to do with the financial side. He never goes anywhere not even to take me out, he is totally addicted to TV and his job, his job is the one thing that he will never be late for and in 20 years I have subscribed to your ebook and workbook but I’m not sure really if my husband is NPD. He has always relied on me for everything (to explain I am a people pleaser I do probably 99% of the thinking, organising, preparing, decisions making in our home) He handed over all finances to me when we moved in together 20 years ago, he asks me for a certain amount every week which is spent on diesel for his ute and lotto, otherwise he wants nothing to do with the financial side.
He has to be forced to go anywhere; he won’t even buy himself clothes. He has never bought a birthday present for his kids himself. He is totally addicted to TV and his job, his job is the one thing that he will never be late for and in 20 years I have only known him to have time off once due to illness and he constantly tells me he hates his job; the reasoning behind this is that he works with a bunch of idiots to put it mildly. Aside from work he is almost a recluse, I have to make excuses to friends that invite us out as to why we can’t go, if by chance that I can manage to persuade him to go which is very rare, he makes it so unpleasant for us (by getting very drunk) that I won’t ask him again for a very long time. He is extremely selfish, for instance if he is say hungry he will make himself something to eat but not ask the kids or me if we want anything, his kids he won’t even ask them I can’t understand that. Although it is true that he hates me getting any limelight and will do his best to upset everything.
He is not out rightly abusive but rather very subtle in his comments to me, what I would call sneaky and sly but what made me think that he may be NPD is his lack of emotional attachment to me and his kids. He has very little to do with them at all, my children have said that even if he did change and show them some love they think it is too late for them to warm towards him and this makes me so sad because I have a fantastic relationship with them both. My daughter is 13 and she tells all her friends that I am her best friend, I so want my husband to have that.
He has no aspirations, no dreams of a better life, he is quite content to let life just pass him by and no friends. There is one thing that I cannot understand and that is that if I try to talk to him in regards to his behaviour or treatment he will go on this “woe is me” kick everyone is against me, he will say things like “I’m just the worse kind of person” He says it a little more colourful than that but he does this to make me feel guilty, and I can feel guilty about anything. He will however manage to make everything about him, if I tell him what he has just said hurt me, he won’t look at it as something he can learn about me, he looks at it as if I am picking on him even if I say it the most gentlest way or if I put my foot down and say don’t do that again, he will take it as a personal attack on him but he will remember it and use it against me the next time he wants a piece of me; I know this because he tells me that he knows what to do to push my buttons.
So the fact that he doesn’t have a double life is not an attention seeker in fact he hated attention and compliments but in a very subtle way he does tell you how good he is adding expressions of “don’t get me wrong I know I’m not the best” or I’m not saying “I’m better than anyone else” But over the years he has managed to make me feel inadequate, stupid, useless and incapable of normal everyday tasks even though I perform them on a regular basis. When I am asked about my family it is very common for me to say that I have three children, my son, my daughter and my husband and this is truly how I feel.
I’m sure that your workbook will help me develop skills to boost my confidence and make me stronger, I’m hoping that by trying the reattachment exercises that I can change his emotional state to one of loving his family, I’ve tried just about everything else except this and this does make a lot of sense to me as his father was physically and mentally abusive to him and his mother wasn’t a person that could show her emotions too well so it makes sense that he has missed out on the fundamentals of learning how to trust and love freely. I would really appreciate it if I could get some feedback on what you think.
I thank God that I happened upon your website thank you
Regards
Julie
Hi Julie – I just read your post. My marriage was a little like yours. My ex did the same thing with the finances. He had no idea how much money we had or what our expenses were. The differance was that he would do work for his mother, she would pay him and he would keep the money from me even when I was having trouble paying bills or clothing our children. Later I figured out that he was spending the money on other women while I was at work. His involvemet with the children was superficial. He did things that made him look good in the eyes of the puplic or co-workers. He was very passive about his verbal abuse. It took me years to accept what he was doing was abuse. When I was pregnant with our fourt child the oldest two were in high school. I depended on them a lot for help because I was in pain much of the time and my husband was not around to help. Towards the end they were so frustrated that they wanted to run away until after the baby came. They told their father “she is your wife you take care of her”. He told me that I made them all feel like slaves and that is why the older children did not want to be there. It had nothing to do with the fact that he was not taking care of me or them.
I read a book called Disarming The Narcissis. It was very good and I found a lot of things in the book that were very much like my relationship. Finding yourself, your strength, and self respect is key to over coming the pain and confusion that goes along with dealing with people like this.
Good luck to you.
Thank you Cindy
I can not find anything that sugests that he has another life outside of this one, we are always together and maybe this is part of the problem you see we moved from South Africa to Australia and he had to leave all his friends behind, frends who he’d grown up with. In SA he went out a lot whereas here he goes nowhere at all and wont make friends, I think his other life may be his addiction to TV, I say that because TV features in his life so much more than it did in SA, from the time he wakes up (when he’s off work) till he goes to bed that TV is on and for the most part we can only watch what he wants to watch unless I insist or force him to let the kids watch but if I do that a lot of the time he will walk off and sulk or make comments on how stupid the program is.
So I don’t know.
Thank you for the support and recomendations, I think it helps if you can relate what they are doing to someone else, this is why I was confused as to whether he was NPD.
Thank you again
Julie
Julie – I do understand your confusion. Try to remember the best defense is your own strenght. Continue to work on believing in yourself. We really can not change others only ourselves and in that we can sometimes incourage others to change. The cycle has to stop somewhere and the men in our lives are not going to do it on their own. They cn not see anything wrong with them.
Just the other night my ex and I started to have a confrontation. I reacted badly at first (old habbits) but then came to my senses and the hole tone of the conversation changed and he became less confrontational. I think it shocked him a little. I still disagree with what he had to say but at this point it is not worth the fight. When I am upset my kids are upset so I try not to go there. I have not been able to buy any of Kim’s books but it really seems like there is a lot of good advise in them. If you can stick with it in the long run it will be worth it. If nothing else you will be a better, stronger person. Hopefully your husband will snap out of it and be able to enjoy the new life you have.
Hang in there!
Hi Julie,
Many of the partners/spouses/relatives of those who post here have not been professionally diagnosed with NPD – apparently it is a very difficult disorder to diagnose anyway. But regardless of whether your husband has NPD or not – the relationship skills that Kim and Steve teach in their program can be applied to try and make any relationship more healthy. While all the facets of their program may not apply to your husband, but some of them do, then only work on the areas that do apply to your situation at first. You may even find that what might not be obvious narcissistic behaviour right now may reveal itself to you later as you chip away at the armour.
It is important to remember though than you cannot change another person, you only have the power to change yourself – and the changes you make to your perspective and attitudes regarding your situation may compel or inspire your husband to own and deal with his own difficulties in life. There are no guarantees, but you can only put your best foot forward, and even if your husband does not face his difficulties, you will eventually find your own peace of heart, mind and soul for yourself and your children – and that is most certainly worth the investment of your time and energy.
With my husband he can be “a street angel and a home devil”. I believe my husband is narcissistic, depressed and has an addiction to alcohol, but he goes to great lengths to conceal how much he is drinking, and he convincingly denies or lies to others (and himself) about having this addiction.
My husband has been an outgoing person in the past – the life of the party – the star attraction – the man wearing the “happy-go-lucky mask” with a whole heap of rage and depression beneath the mask. That rage and depression was often revealed to me and my kids in his treatment of us, and sometimes his treatment of others, but mostly in the public eye he was fake – but a successful businessman at the same time (from which he draws most of his self-worth and identity)- boosted by alcohol into a euphoric state of “skin deep happiness”.
But now no amount of alcohol will boost him into that euphoric state – he strives to control his drinking in conflict with needing to drink to quell his huge anxiety levels – and the anxiety and depression beneath the mask can no longer be hidden.
In recent years, because he is either finding it difficult or doesn’t know how to work through his current level of anxiety and depression himself (as he has done in the past) he has now become reclusive, and his life has revolved around work and the TV, in silence – or an endless negative and depressing commentary of how the world is full of idiots – idiots in the workplace, sport, politics, races, churches, schools, authorities, voluntary organisations, shops, restaurants, and so on.
He has a “huge chip on his shoulder” – in other words he is full of resentment, self-pity and martyrdom but does not recognise (let alone acknowledge) that he is “the common denominator” in his negative world. An example of this is that – in his mind – HE goes out to work, brings home the “bacon”, but nobody appreciates HIM – and he only keeps a pittance of the “bacon” for himself.
(He conveniently and and narcissistically dismisses my 50/50 input into our business partnership and additionally my own income through my own personal business.)
In many other ways as well my husband paints a picture that he sacrifices himself for everyone and that no-one appreciates him for that, he therefore is the victim. From this mindset he is constantly sulking or seeking sympathy or attention in many ways from me and/or others. It doesn’t matter how much I or others acknowledge or show our appreciation or sympathy for him – he continues to feed off being the victim because his narcissism has made him so self-absorbed and attention seeking all these years – and it had become a cycle that is high maintenance for him and for everyone affected by it – a cycle that I largley stopped participating in a long time ago because I could see he was feeding off it.
I don’t believe it is sympathy being sought for whatever his “current drama” is – I believe it is sympathy being sought for the angry and hurt child within him because recently I have had some breakthroughs in his self-absorption – as you might have read in some of my recent postings. My husband is slowly realising (in response to me growing some “metal teeth”) that it is not the world that is his problem – but that his problems exist within himself – his anxiety levels and inadequacies, his skeletons from his childhood days, his relationship with his father as a child and young adult, and what was a “normal” family life for him may not have all necessarily been a healthy, functional family life. He now realises that he may have some work to do on himself – but getting to this point has taken a lot of time, research, effort and energy on my part – it has also taken a lot of work on myself to believe in and love myself enough to exert the “tough love” required on him to make him face himself.
With anything I do or say now – I must be prepared to follow it through – so I have to be really sure of myself before I speak or act, otherwise I do nothing until I am sure of what I am doing – and that may take a whole lot of detachment, enlightenment, contemplation and time before the right solution comes to me.
Welcome to Oz, we are a friendly bunch – so make sure you make friends of your own and enjoy our lifestyle to the full – regardless of your husband’s outlook on life at the moment. Maybe your husband is not happy in the job he currently has, or is finding it difficult to adjust to the Australian way of life, or is unhappy for any number of other reasons including missing his old friends, but one thing I have noticed – is that the narcissism in our loved one can lead us into depression and isolation easily too – that the narcissist is the centre of their own universe and seeks to be the insatiable centre of your universe too – at your expense – and that is not healthy for you or for them. Try to concentrate on what is best for you, because what is best for you – is best for him too.
Good Luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
I find myself this morning in the same situation which seems to happen more and more…it has to do with my lack of memory and the resulting frustration from my wife. Either I am choosing not to remember what is said to me or old age is creaping in.
My wife is very much a perfectionist and has a great deal of trouble handling things which upset her day…my not following thru with something or forgetting to pick something up at the store. This triggers yelling at me…swearing at me and generally finding many faults which she can attach to the problem at hand.
I have said to her that I understand she is frustrated with the situations BUT I will not listen to the constant yelling and swearing related to her choice of how to handle her anger. This usually gets the statement “try being on the other side of you”…or I’ll yell if I want to…or dont’ tell me how to handle this.
I try and stand my ground by saying I will listen to you but will not accept the swearing and yelling at me…that is a choice of how to handle YOUR feelings and that there are other ways that do not include swearing and yelling.
Things only seem to get to a level of calm…never do the feelings of holding hands or missing what we once had return. I do not expect things to return to the utopia stage however there seems to be a vast space between here and there.
There are times when I feel like leaving and being away from this situation totallly so I dont have to continually hear how bad things are for her and hwo much of the situation is my fault…but find that I need to realize that yes…there are parts of me which aggrevate her but I don’t want to believe ALL parts are my fault.The only way I could believe everything is my fault is if I give in to doing everything her way and have nothing to call my own. I also relaize this would not be good enough for her either…the problems would continue.
This is a difficult place to be and have trouble figuring out the best possible outcome for me.
I know there are highs and lows but the bar seems to ever so slowly move in a downward motion.
Thanks for listening…keep the strenght
Hi John,
A small but powerful phrase from a song often keeps me fortified against any verbal abuse that I might be on the receiving end of:
“When the going gets tough, the tough get going”.
The going really does get worse before it gets better once you have started following Kim and Steve’s program – and it really pays to remember that at all times. It is OK to be angry, but it is not OK to lose control of one’s temper, or to go on and on pulling in a whole heap of other unrelated stuff that may have been bottled up or is now being regurgitated from past conflicts just to get the boots in again!
You are right – there are other ways of dealing with anger – and your wife has yet to learn or re-learn that lesson – and the more you stay in control the more likely she will eventually realise that she is the one who is out of control. Every time my husband loses his temper, insults me, puts me down or behaves negatively towards me now – even if I am at fault or doubt myself – I see the current immature emotional mindset my husband is in as an opportunity to take a stance against it – that it is a re-parenting opportunity for me against his tantrums, arrogance and tyranny. Little by little his behaviour is being exposed by me (with tough love) to himself. My husband is realising more and more that he has a problem with anger management, and I will no longer conceal how he treats me. What I understand is that my husband needs to learn that anger management is not about controlling it by “white-knuckled willpower” – holding the anger in – because eventually it will explode like a volcano with a whole heap of bottled up grievances against me and/or the world.
The anger control techniques that our marriage guidance counsellor (MGC) tried to teach my husband (and me) were, according to my husband, the stupidest things he had ever heard (because my husband is so used to reacting abusively and getting away with it).
The MGC gave several scenarios of what “REACTIVE” behaviour looks and sounds like when reacting negatively, defensively or aggressively to a situation. The MGC then repeated each of the scenarios – and gave examples of how to “RESPOND” in a healthy and positive way instead of “REACTING” angrily, negatively or aggressively. The MGC did this by illustrating the benefit of quietly taking a deep, slow and full breath before interacting – providing a small opportunity to calm yourself, lower your blood pressure, and to assess the situation to “RESPOND” in the most positive way for yourself.
I have drawn on the lessons of The Al-Anon program, Kim & Steve’s program and the MGC – and the way I see it – it is of paramount importance to preserve your own dignity and grace at all times – and most importantly to retain your own personal power by not giving it away through uncontrolled venting of anger. We give away our power if we lose control of our temper – and this is something not readily remembered when our loved one abuses us or loses their temper – because right at that moment they have given away their “power” to you – and we don’t see that while they are laying a “guilt-trip” on us or we are doubting ourselves or feeling guilty or responsible.
The thing is to humbly and sincerely apologise if you have made a mistake and/or hurt your loved one, but do not grovel or make promises that you may not keep.
Apologise only once (and you are entitled to be forgiven for being human at that point) – but if your loved one continues to rant and rave – wait for the right moment to reiterate that you have heard and understood their grievance and HAVE ALREADY sincerely apologised and that you can do no more than that. If your loved one does not start to calm down and stop the tirade at that point – then do not continue apologizing as this will only reinforce their possible addiction to anger by extended venting, and reinforcing “the power and superiority” they FEEL over you by verbally abusing you. (Sometimes I think my husband looks for fault in me – or any opportunity at all for that matter – just to get a hit for his addiction to anger and for the “powerful and superior” feeling he gets, and displays through his body and language, when he abuses me emotionally and/or financially.)
If your loved one continues to verbally abuse you after you have reiterated your first sincere apology – then say to them that you can see that they are very angry right now and that they need time to cool down, and so do you, tell them what you are doing and where you are going next and when you will return – do not re-engage in the conflict even if they are trying to hook you back in – and then just calmly walk away from the abuse – and do what you should be doing, or go self-soothe and/or go somewhere that is a place of tranquillity and/or safety – REMOVE yourself from the abuse and/or tantrums (even if you have done something originally that may have sparked the conflict – guilt or blame does not mean that you have to accept unacceptable behaviour).
I have heard that a child will only throw tantrums while it has an audience – and we are dealing with a child within the adult who has never been taught or learned how to deal with their negative emotions in a positive way – the powerless child who has unhealthily learned how to deal with their negative feelings or to get what they want – or their power – through tantrums and/or abuse. No amount of lecturing or counter abuse is going to change that – it will only provide an opportunity for reinforcement of tantrum throwing and for rifts to widen.
Actions do speak louder than words when faced with narcissistic abuse – even subtle abuse. Stay calm and in control – listen to and acknowledge only what your loved one’s current grievance is – do not get caught up with any distracting/decoying past or current “junk” that may create confusion – apologise only for what you are guilty of or responsible for – do not apologise for matters that you are not responsible for, or if you are not sure – then say you need to think about the situation and deal with it once you have cleared your mind. Above all – remember you are a human being and entitled not to be perfect and at all times – to be forgiven for being a human being.
It is important also to remember that while you are working through a stressful situation such as you are that your health and well-being can and will most likely suffer – so make yourself a priority because your wife won’t if she is behaving narcissistically – she will be too wrapped up in her own world and the rest of the world must revolve around her world – and she won’t like, and will actively resist, any changes you may be making to the way you relate to her and what you are doing to limit the abuse/control/superiority.
If you have any concerns about the state of your health or well-being – seek professional help – have a comprehensive medical check-up – tell your doctor if you are having memory problems – it may just be stress related – but it is important to get assessed early; Seek psychological counselling for good mental and emotional support for yourself; Find a good naturopath/herbalist – there are good nutritional supplements for stress and memory problems if the problem is not a medical one; There are brain exercises you can do too, and just plain good fun, physical exercise, quality diet and sleep also help to maintain a good memory function. It could be as simple as you and your wife developing a “routine” of her reminding you just before you are due to come home to get whatever it is she needs. If you are able – encourage your wife to have a comprehensive medical check-up too – hormones can wreak havoc physically and emotionally in both women and men at various stages in life from puberty onwards.
If you have become isolated – join a club or activity – surround yourself with people/friends where you will bring new conversations to the table at home – this is very good and important for you and your health and well-being (even if your wife is not supportive or negative about it initially because it takes the focus off the narcissist in her – but it is important and good for her in the long run too!).
You are doing great John, keep up the good work and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi everyone
Thank you CD and Trisha for your comments. I will address both of those as I spill out my ever increasing random thought processes. I am still getting over the ex N!
Well I went to the wedding, I was the only single person there .. that was harder than I thought it would be…funnily enough though, I have been at weddings in the past as a single and thought nothing much of it, this time though after 2 years with an N boyfriend, it really felt different.. only because I am different. I am the one who gave this man permission to infiltrate my very being and thought development and processes.
However, I enjoyed the wedding and the weekend away, I looked at it as a gift.. I was away from cooking and washing up for a whole weekend, and boy did it feel good! I made some new friends too which is always nice. Since coming home though I have been very tired and have spent a lot of time reflecting on my life with my ex boyfriend. I have wondered about whether I could say to him that I have missed him .. missed us…and I have wondered whether I dare to even think that way, whether that is just the normal bit of the healing process.. I know it is and would always give that advice if asked for it from a friend/client in same situation.
I just have thought more about it this last week ..weddings though always bring up those sort of emotions don’t they? When you see 2 people, in love and declaring that love openly for everyone to see and hear. Something that I guess I felt ‘deprived’ of.. that is the bottom line I think right there…I FELT cheated in some way of the right to being treated the way that I choose to treat others, with respect and compassion. Rightly or wrongly, I FELT in essence then ‘deprived’ of love and that level of respect from him right at that moment in time! A bit like being on a diet and knowing that you cannot have or should not have that yummy chocolate bar which is beckoning to you!! The moment you cannot have something the more you want it! Same with drugs, alcohol .. and yes the ex’s!
Yet I married an N and stayed married for nearly 20 years. Perhaps though with Kim and Steve’s help I would still be married to him.. had I known about your site back 11 years ago. Yet, had I not divorced him, even though it was at great financial loss to both of us and I lived on the poverty line for many years, not eating properly so my children could eat 3 square meals a day and be clothed, and even having to ring in sick for work one week because I could not afford fuel for my car… working my end off full time and not even breaking even every month.. I learned a lot more about me in that time I think than if I had stayed with him without any outside help to teach me the right ways to behave also. How to change the direction of the abusive attacks whether they were verbal or physical for instance.. which all of you here have at your fingertips.
I do value and understand CD everything that you have said and the reasons that you choose to stay with your husband,it is just that I care about you and what happens to you and the times you have been so clearly in pain resonate with each and every one of us as we all know where you are coming from!
I understand as they were the reasons I stayed too, my husband told me I was going to ruin him financially when we split up first but I had gone beyond that by then, I really did not care anymore about money, it was my sanity that was at stake and I did not feel I could be a good mother to my children the way I was hurting all the time, and I needed to put some distance between us to begin the healing processes. At the time we split, our children were teeangers and my son was showing clear signs of immense distress as he too was becoming aggressive with his sister and also shouting at me the way his father did to me.
My daughter was having counselling for being the victim of constant bullying attacks at school and of course her home life was under the microscope too and as I have said before here, I was told off the cuff by the psychologist treating my daughter, to end my marriage for my children’s sake. I was so torn between what I felt was right for them by my vows I had taken to love and honour in sickness and in health.. a bit of humour here.. I did not say obey but he clearly thought I should have done!!
Kidding aside, I did in the end what I thought was right for all of us. I had counselling myself as I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision for the right reasons. After much deliberation, it had taken me many years to reach the decision too, I finally said enough was enough. My kids certainly settled down when they were removed (or rather he was) from the equation. We became a close family unit again… it was not easy trust me…there were times when I wondered what I was going to do to manage my life but I never once thought or felt that I had made a mistake. Not once! I lost weight and people actually thought it was because I was unhappy at my marriage being over.. on the contrary it was because the stress had been removed. When you look at photos taken of me during my marriage, I looked fraught and so stressed out most of the time, yet within a few months I lost 30 lbs and gained my life and vitality back. I had spent so much time thinking about our relationship and the harm it was doing to all of us, that I had stopped living inside. I had stagnated. The same happened with the recent N experience again, photos taken of me during the last year (when things were at their worst with him) compared to photos taken of me the 1st year we were together (when life was good) and photos taken since, are all different.. close friends and family have commented on how much younger and stress free I look which in my 56th year is always nice to hear!
I still have things to feel stressed about from time to time .. that is life.. I have had health issues and yesterday was finally able to close the door one one particular issue which for the past few months has been a great worry for me… but I will take those things in my stride as I always have done.. now I am free from the constant worry and the ever decreasing circles I found myself travelling in whilst involved with an N.
However, all said and done, and as I have pointed out before, I did not have the tools then that all of us have here now thanks to Kim and Steve and their infinite wisdom that they chose to share with us in this way. Okay they are running a business too, let’s not forget but they do go above and beyond the call of duty in their endeavours to get the message out there to all of us, it is a huge commitment which they have taken on… thank you for that Kim and Steve and Kerry too for all she does to keep us all informed here with our individual blogs.
I wish so much I had had all that you offer now back when I was married all those years ago. Life has not been without its problems all these 11 years I have to say. Ending it was right at the time as I knew I did not want to endure any more anguish and the constant bullying that was taking place in our home and he always made sure the children were watching or nearby. In time though, they stood up to him and started sticking up for me .. that made me feel sad too to see them feeling the necessity to take sides. I always tried to avoid at all costs, arguing in front of the children, in fact I rarely argued, I just stood there and took it .. most of the time! It seemed the easier option and one where I was sure then would not escalate to going beyond actual verbal abuse.. okay it gave him a feeling of power over me but not as great as the power he would feel if he actually became phyiscally abusive too and saw the fear in my eyes. Looking back on it now it seems like a very bad dream but one which I have woken up from and moved on from. Only of course to meet another N 9 years later but at least now I am learning the lessons that I so needed to learn 30 years ago.
Trisha – you know though honey that all his charm and treating you right for that month is how he was probably right in the beginning of your relationship.. these are classic N traits.. the charm, the charisma.. all designed to win your heart.. you and I are in very different places to these other men and women on here, most of them are in relationships where they live with their N’s.. they are married to them or have children with them but also in living together, they are able to keep a check on the bad behaviour, the double life that they often lead. I do not know enough about your situation with your N to know if you would be doing the right thing by ending it or by staying with it.. only you can make that decision. I just know that from where I am standing looking in, it concerns me as you are now spending all your waking time wanting back that man as he was. He may not ever return.. you see he has you now in the palm of his hand, you are spending all your energy on him… the best thing I guess you can do now is to back off……let him see you don’t need him. Maybe he will step up to be that man again, and maybe he won’t. He is playing mind games with you Trisha. He knows you better now than you know yourself.
Has anyone else got any tips here? I cannot tell you to end it and I won’t. I can only tell you Trisha to be armed and disarm him. Have you read Wendy Bahary’s book yet? CD and I and others have read it and gained alot from it. You need to take back your power, you are giving it all to him, don’t you see that? I am worried about you, I feel your pain and frustration in all this, I have been exactly where you are now. I wrote email after email to my friends asking the same questions you are now.. I waited and waited for him to come back to me the way he was before .. my Knight in Shining Armour but he did not. In the end I had to make a decision for my sanity’s sake and I chose to end it. If I had been living with him it may have been an entirely different outcome but as I was not it was the best decision I could make at the time. It does not mean I love him any less .. I still do love him but my love was not enough for him, he had tired of it, he wanted only my home comforts of late I think. He did not want to give anything of himself to the relationship, he now was in a position to take only.. .or so he thought. He can think again now can’t he!
He called me last night out of the blue….I saw his number come up on my caller ID and I hesitated.. I did not know whether to answer it or not.. but I did.. it was the 1st phone call from him since we broke up over 7 weeks ago. I have seen him since then of course when he came to collect his things but I have to say that the call was not comfortable, he was trying to be chatty and enigmatic but I saw through it all this time.. it was so good to see him as if for the 1st time. The reason for his call? Simply that his mother knew that I had a medical appt yesterday for my recent health scare and so I asked him outright why he had called ( I was letting him know I was in control here) and he fumbled along saying that he had spoken to his mother and she had mentioned it and he did not want me to think he had forgotten! This was gone 9pm last night.. of course he had forgotten!! He had probably spoken to his parents that evening as they had probably called him to find out if he knew anything yet…. if he had not forgotten he would have text me in the morning telling me good luck! Who was he kidding? Did not kid me.. just fooled himself into thinking that way.. that age old problem for them which is they cannot be accountable or responsible.. why did he have to lie? Because that is all he knows how to do! I was glad when the call ended to be honest and then about an hour later, he emailed me and said it was good to chat and oh by the way he had been talking to a friend of his and he wanted a favour of me for her.. I felt sorry for her and so did what I could to help.. but I know that this female is probably the next in line… he went to her aid a few weeks ago and his parents told me that he had gone to see an old friend of his.. she had a crisis apparently. .but both the parents and he were very careful not to disclose the gender of this so called long lost friend. Now it seems ‘she’ is the flavour of the month.. I feel sorry for her.. if only I could warn her .. she is likely to be finding her existing problems are about to become even bigger with him in her life! He really should come with a health warning stamped on his forehead.. perhaps only visible to vulnerable women! Sorry that is a bit OTT I know but I really feel uncomfortable this. He is on the prowl for his next victim and she could well be it! I admit to even feeling a hint of the green eyed monster sneaking out momentarily – why was that I had to ask myself? I know why… it’s because I still am not over this man! I am still showing signs of co-dependency! Time to listen to my download again asap!
Moving on – I sent for the email that Kim and Steve have emailed us about a couple of days ago and there was one bit in that that really struck home – “Children may not admit it but they want their parents to be in love or at least be friends” (okay so preferably still living under one roof too) This the one thing that I made damn sure happeend when my ex husband and I split up and that was that for the sake of our children, we remained on good speaking terms.. he of course, had issues with this for a long time, even ignoring me completely at his son/my stepson’s wedding in front of our children too! They were so hurt by it but who put himself in the worst light possible in front of his family that day? Not me that much is certain! Everyone was in sympathy with me not him! His family, my in laws were highly embarrassed by his behaviour, he showed himself up, I did not have to do a thing to help him! By the time my stepdaughter’s wedding came along a couple of months later, at least I had had a chance to speak with him and tell him how he had hurt the children that day at their brother’s wedding and that I hoped he was going to be grown up enough to at least act with grace at the next wedding. He rose to the occasion and did manage to talk to me and I could see our children visibly relax. I can also give you a perfect example of this. My husband and I met when his children were only 9 and 6…their mother had left him and the children. We married a year later. My ex had a dreadful relationship with his ex wife, they rarely spoke and when they did he was often verbally abusive to her, namecalling being top of the list, not in front of the children I hasten to add thankfully but they knew very clearly how their parents felt about each other!! I used to pick him up on this, even as young as I was then, and had no experience myself of divorce as my parents despite their own problems, were at least still together and in a close relationship. But my instincts told me that it was wrong for him to be so detrimental about his ex in front of them. One day when my stepson was about 13½, he had just arrived for his weekend with us as he and his sister always did every other weekend…. he walked through the front door and hugging me (I was close to both of them) said he had had a really tough day at school.. he had not even taken off his jacket, he was clearly wanting to tell me something important and I was asking him what had happened,he blurted out that they had to write an essay of the worst day of their lives – remember now he is only 13! He said and his words still are permanently etched on my mind, ” I wrote that the worst day of my life was when my mum and dad split up” Although I was not the reason for my husband’s marriage not working with his wife, having met him after she had gone, my heart broke in two for him and I knew then that I would have to stay with my husband for the sake of our child. (we only had 1 then)… but I had already been verbally abused by his father and also been threatened with violence if I did not adhere to his rules and regulations! By this time, he had also tried to rape me when he came home late one night after a bout of drinking with his sports cronies! My stepson’s words will not ever be forgotten.. we spoke about it that day between the 2 of us and I suggested that he talk it through with his dad.. he said he was sorry to say it to me, that it did not mean he thought any less of me though. He was clearly feeling guilty for having written that and my heart went out to him then and even more so now that I too have ended my marriage with my children’s father! I am not going to beat myself up though for ending that marriage, I needed to and I still stand by that. I never regretted my decision to end it until our granddaughter was born nearly 2 years ago, then and only then, I felt sad that we were not a couple sharing the gift of so much joy that had been bestowed upon us. I feel sorry for our granddaughter that she is not going to know that both her grandma and her grandpa are together or that the same applies to her father’s side of the family too as his parents are also divorced.
My daughter and I discussed the cards my ex boyfriend and I gave to the baby when it was her birth and her 1st Christmas and also her 1st birthday and last Christmas..we have decided that I should replace the cards just from me.. not from a grandad she will not ever know. Do you know he never asks about her at all… apart from once when he came to collect his things and he said “so is she speaking properly now instead of that baby talk?” I felt an instant defensive chord being struck.. it was the way he said it too.. the tone of his voice.. he was criticising her for not speaking English instead of gobbldeegook baby language!! I instantly told him that her baby talk is very endearing and I shall miss it when its gone.. she knows what she is saying to all of us.. smiling outside and irritated inside but did not let him see that at all! He was after all, still trying to press buttons!
I have little or no contact with him now and I like it that way. He emails me a lot more than I him .. I reply with single lines, I answer questions in monosyllables .. he knows that is SO different.. you all know how I write here.. prolifically!!
I always did with him too.. we shared a lot once upon a time.. the bare truth is I do miss him and I make no bones about that and I have even wondered if he asked for forgiveness and another chance whether I would let him back into my life but I have to admit to myself that he will NOT EVER ask for forgiveness for his somewhat atrocious behaviour in a million years! So I guess in that knowledge, comes the bare truth that I will not be experiencing this phenomena, I reckon hell would have to freeze over before he would even ‘consider’ it a possibility! 
And even then I am not sure I would believe him! Wrly smiling to myself here!
So here I am on a Saturday afternoon, contemplating my future .. but the future as it stands at the moment is just ahead.. not looking any further right now than the supermarket shopping I have to do today in prep for my family all coming for lunch tomorrow.
Oh and by the way, I got back in the saddle and have been asked out on a couple of dates….the jury is still out on that one.. I have not accepted at all just yet.. not sure I really have the energy right now! I guess when I am ready .. I will know! I am nervous though of meeting another N and being taken in by the charm and charisma.. I just hope that my radar will warn me in plenty of time.. just like it did with both my husband and my boyfriend! This time though, I will listen to that inner voice, I cannot afford not to! Not now.. not again! Painful lessons have been learned here but I have no regrets.
Over and out from HM in UK and I am now past caring if he reads this post or not. .he knows deep down inside himself that he is who he is.. and that everything I have said here is 100% truth, which is a darn sight more than he can ever acknowledge in himself. I feel sorry for him.. I wish I could help him but I don’t see how now? Any one got any ideas? He will not ever believe anything I say to him? I feel like trying to talk to his parents sometimes about him so that they know what they are dealing with when he has no sympathy or empathy with them or when he does not put himself out to see them or spend any quality time with them.. but I also get the feeling that at some level they know something is not right with him. His parents have hinted at something but not been definitive about their concerns with me.
So without further adieu think of me trudging around the supermarket on a Saturday afternoon! It may be quieter today though as there is rugby on all day! Could be full of disgruntled women though feeling annoyed that their hubbies are home watching tv whilst they are out food shopping to fill the ever hungry bellies of their offspring and him!!
That does make me smile….oh dear.. should I be worried! 
Hugs to you all
HM
One other thing I forgot to say was to Julie and Cindy.. and Jean.. John.. do what CD says about self soothing.. take time out for you… make your life better and happier.. do whatever it takes to get to that place inside yourselves. It is the only way forward for you. No one is saying it is easy, when you love these people you are so caught up in it all that you really cannot see the wood for the trees, but what I can promise you is that if you take small steps every day.. even if it is just 1 tiny baby step forward you will soon find that wood and see each individual tree in it and the reason it is there. I have just finished reading all your posts just now and really can say Cindy that your story is so much like mine when I was married all those years ago.. and I know that even those who do not yet post here, a lot of them will be experiencing feelings of the same ilk.
You have only yourself to change……you CANNOT and MUST NOT try to change them. They can ONLY change themselves! So you just put yourself in the best possible place you can and they will see the change in you, even if that change is you not reacting to the dramas and the conflicts. This alone will make them stop eventually and take stock, don’t expect miracles though, lower your expectations of their behaviour however, expect the best, think about that for a moment, it sounds contradictory doesn’t it? It is not though, it means allowing them to be the best they can be not to your standards though! This will allow you to let yourself off the hook too when it comes around to apportioning blame as they will always want to do as we know. Until they mature even a little, they will not see that they are ever accountable, you or someone else will always be the reason they ‘failed’ to make the grade whatever that is.
Remember to keep breathing and take one day at a time! Rome was not built in a day!
Above all else, believe that all things are possible. With all that you have at your fingertips here make those decisions of course, but only once you have covered all bases! By the time I found this site, it was too late for us, we were already past help.
I would say though for anyone who is not living with the N in their life .. seriously consider whether you continue that road with them in your life.. it is very very different from when they live with you and you are thus entwined with children or finances. I am not saying you should not ever consider marrying them or moving in with them either.. after all, I would not have my 2 lovely kids if I had run the recommended mile on meeting my husband.
Just be safe! Take your power back though and soon whatever the outcome!
x
Hi HM,
What might be good for your broken heart now is to take a voyage again on Kim and Steve’s Love Boat Cruise – to remind yourself especially of the heart virtue qualities you would like to find in a man if you were to start dating again. All the islands in Kim & Steve’s Love Boat Cruise offer great advice about love and life, and about being a good life partner. If you haven’t been on the Love Boat Cruise yet you will find it at http://www.thelovesafetynet.com
My philosophy now is “Beware of Knights in Shining Armour and be your own hero instead”. Ever tried to hug or get close to a Knight in Shining Armour? It is impossible to get through the armour, and you can’t see through their mask – unless you chip away at the armour and remove the mask! I agree with you that this would be very difficult (if not impossible) to do in a relationship where you are not living with your partner or loved one, and especially if the relationship is a long distance one.
It might be nice for you to get back in the saddle again, especially if your prospective suitors live in your town/city, and especially since you are much more wary of the traits/pitfalls of narcissism and co-dependency now. It is not like you have to commit to anyone – you can take it as slow as you like and just enjoy some male company – I am sure you will see a red flag if there is one to be seen. If you resume your relationship with your ex then you will become unavailable again. I see your dilemma as – do you resume a relationship with the devil you know, or a potential devil or angel you don’t know?
Whatever you decide there is a great saying “There are no mistakes in life – only directions . . . .” Whatever you choose make sure it is what is best for you and expect the very best for yourself – you deserve no less than that.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
CD,
First – which goes back weeks ago – no need to apologize for making some assumptions. I was not at all offended,and I wish I had been on to respond sooner. I put in my clarifications because I think all of us are struggling to understand this and figure out how to respond from reading what each other is going through. Also I still sometimes question if I am the N, because I am told so often I am, and my husband’s vices are mostly the need to be in charge/control.
Secondly – I just read you “breakthrough” posting and I value some of the insight from that night because today was another tough day (yet one that reminds me – despite my flaws, I am not the entire problem.) It is effecting the boys – the eldest had a hard time falling asleep tonight, in part because I was restless and still upset (and am still in the habit of laying with them when they go to sleep.) For whatever reason my husband needed to pick a fight and tell others how flawed they are. (Some poor customer service receptionist also ended up getting his rage later today.)
I need to remember to watch the body language and non verbal message. Ignoring put-downs in the moment is difficult, and sometimes I get hurt and push back in the wrong way which escalates my husband. I wish I could be more tolerant, more flattering and “stroke his ego” when I see he is in a rough place (ie disengaging from me, rejecting efforts to support and inquire about what is on his mind.) We all keep struggling.
In the midst of the tyraid he said that he needed to relieve his stress (which in his mind I caused), and that was related to why he was reacting as he was. Clearly anxiety underlies much of this – and when I can I will think through this further.
The problems at work continue to explode, which gives my husband (and my insecurities) further evidence of how “incapable of functioning in society I am” etc. etc. Fortunately if I need to find another job, it will not be too difficult.
Hope my musings help someone else too.
MR
cd
Can’t thank you enough for you words and concern…it means more than you will ever know.
I find that I have been able to control myself in situations which in the past would have been huge conflicts.HOWEVER I realize that I do not seem to rid myself of those feelings and the memory of the situations are fresh in my mind even though I was able to bypass conflict. That being said I do get caught in stiuations when I “let my guard down” and revert to OLD patterns.
The other day we were trying to fix something in the house which required me to measure and cut some wood. I cut the piece to short and knew in a heart beat that this was not going to be unnoticed. The comment was “whats wrong with you…didn’t you measure(I did)…can’t you even do this right?”
I felt like a fool…actually trying to “do it right” and failing at such a easy task. I am now in a pressure situation and DO NOT have any tools which I can grab to pull me back from the confrontation. I hear all the comments and feel all the pain and without thinking I say “I wish you were dead” to my wife. With that she said F U and she would not finish the project…I would have to complete it by myself. I follow her into the next rooom and apoligize and hear “thats not goood enough…we’re finished( something she has repeatedly said in these situations) I try and explain my side of the story which only fuels the fire more…all my responses and actions are totally wrong and I am in a quiet storm. I feel horrible that those words came out and more angry that I did not stick to my warning signs and back away.
You mention memory issues…I seem to have some areas where my memory( or lack of listening) is not what it used to be. I really know this because 40 years ago I played drums in bands and was told I was the best drummer in the area..recently I have by chance bumped into the bass player from those days and from there the other members of the band. In playing at “open mikes” recently I see I do not always remember the entire song from those days and remember when this was not an issue. It is very concerning… and difficult to here about at home when the situations arise. I cannot deny the issue but by agreeing with the statements I only add more fuel to the fire in stressful times. By agreeing with the fact I am giving more fuel for the fire…and by denying it I give more fuel to that fire.
I have trouble believing that the home situation will ever get back to a place where I can be comfortable for the rest of my life. I can’t see myself living like this forever…but have fear of the unknown future and all that is entailed with it.
I continually think that this is not where I want my life to end and do not want to argue to the grave…that is not my wish. I do not have any close living relatives and am fearful of being totally alone for the rest of my life…and dying alone. I at this point am not sure how much I have to offer myself muchless any one else.
I feel great when I can stay away from a situation and save myself but find it a very small reward in the BIG picture.
I seem to be rambling so I will sign off for now…think more and write again soon.
in strenght….john
Hi MR
Your musings help me. Sad as it is, I can really relate to being told how “incapable of functioning in society I am” I posted once back on January 31st when I was away from him, feeling strong. Now I am back, nothing has changed. No that’s not entirely true I am still stronger and don’t let the cruel words get to me nearly as much as they used to. It isn’t easy for me to write here, but I thank those of you who find it easier, SO much! it really helps me to read what you have to say.
Sally
Hey John,
Don’t be so hard on yourself – we all say and do things we deeply regret. Whether this incident is the final straw for your wife or not – the important thing is that you didn’t mean what you said – and since she won’t listen to your verbal apology, then perhaps you could write her a note instead.
When giving an apology though it is important to just say what you are sorry for and why you are sorry – that you understand you have hurt your wife’s feelings – but not to make any excuses for what you did or said – no matter how provoked you were. For example, drawing from your posting:
“I am so sorry for saying what I did to you, I understand that I have hurt your feelings and I can’t tell you how horrible I feel for that. I truly did not mean what I said, and I hope you can accept my apology as heartfelt and sincere.”
If you do write a note to your wife, try to pick the best time and way to give it to her. Do not give any flowers or gifts with the apology – let the apology stand on its own merit. It might be that you leave the note in an addressed sealed envelope for her to find and read when she is alone so she has time to absorb it before she says anything further to you. However, it is important to remember also that forgiveness is given and not to be expected just because you have apologised. Sometimes people need time to forgive and forget, sometimes they never forgive or forget.
I hear your struggle though with trying not to react to the put-downs and insults. Just zipping up your mouth and bottling everything up is not the answer – you will just be creating a volcanic situation where you will explode and perhaps say something else that you may regret – whereas if you address the verbal abuse as you go then it will diffuse any potential emotional build-up.
For example, your wife says:
“What’s wrong with you …..didn’t you measure….can’t you even do this right?”
You could respond by saying:
“I don’t know what is wrong with me or if there is anything wrong at all … I did measure it, but obviously I made a mistake…. I am a human being and we are all capable of making mistakes.”
If your wife then says something like: “But you are always making mistakes, you are careless and you just don’t listen!” (I don’t know what she is likely to say – this is just a scenario).
Your response could be: “I don’t ALWAYS make mistakes, but I DO make mistakes and I get frustrated just like you do, but it is not that I don’t care because I do care. As I said I am a human being and am capable of making mistakes.”
You will see that I didn’t put a response in about not listening and that is because the above responses are reflecting her words (“I don’t know what is wrong with me”), then your viewpoint is added (“or if their is anything wrong at all”). The fact you are reflecting what she says confirms to her you are listening.
Above all – try to find ways to speak up for yourself – stay calm, respectful, neutral and in control.
If your wife continues along the same path …. Just say “I don’t like where this is going, I don’t want to pursue the matter any further – I am going to go to the hardware store now to get another piece of timber to finish the job – I will be back shortly.”
The above suggestions are examples only, take some time to compose your scripts in your own way so it comes out as naturally as possible. Have courage – your wife probably feels many of the fears and anxieties you do but outwardly displays them differently to you and to others.
How great is it that you played the drums again after so long – and after a 40 year break I think you can be easily excused for not remembering all the songs! I hope you will keep up with the enjoyment and friendships that this past passion can bring to your present life.
I also hope that you will have a complete check up with your doctor – explain the difficulties you have been experiencing. My 35 year old son-in-law experienced similar symptoms to you for quite some time – my daughter was beside herself with frustration and anger – we all feared dementia or Alzheimer’s but it turned out to be something quite different and treatable. The frustration and anger in both of them has subsided now they know what they are dealing with. My daughter and son-in-law also read “The Art of Happiness” by The Dalai Lama & Howard C Cutler – it brought so much peace and perspective to their lives – and they thoroughly recommend it to all.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
cd
thanks or the note…I did want to mention that I feel and have experienced that even answering comments made to me(putdowns…etc.) opens the door for more questions and issues from my wife to which I get caught up in and find myself deeper in a hole and feel the control of the conversation is now totally in her hands…the struggle then becomes to find a new common ground and a place to end the conversation.
By not answering the ????s they become retoracal and seem to stop promptly,
my music is a nice release and something that only I can know how much I can improve while enjoying the attempts of today and being proud of the efforts.
I started going to the open mikes during a period of silence in the house(several weeks) and during the time my wife found a list of the venues and assumed I was going to the bars for something other than music and made a comment suggesting this(nothing direct or to the point) to see what my response would be. This was a trap being set to put me in a position of giving up what I was doing w/o being asked. I realized this and answered in the same non-direct way I had been spoken to…which got no response and no further statements about this. This to me is a better way not to draw fire from the other side and stay out of the way of incomming missles(so to speak). I am not told I am not listening and the discussion usually moves onto another area.
I was told that by going to bars I was looking for trouble and that all the people there were loosers and why would I want to associate with them( the open mikes are sometimes at biker type bars). I said no one had asked her opinion and that I could take care of myself. Then I dropped the subject.
A couple mothes latter my wife told me she had been thinking about the music situation and if I wanted to I could continue doing the music…I guess to give me her permission. Since this there is no issues with my going out….so I would assume that by standing up for myself and staying the course I showed strength and consistency without caving into her opinion and siding with her. Its a good feeling to care more about yourself and stand up for something you believe in.
enough for now…thanks again
john
Kim,
I just found your website today and this will be my final straw. I have read in the bible where it say’s that my husband (who is a narcissist). I have been trying for years to figure out what is wrong with him and typed in to a search engine one day the words self centered people and the subject of narcissism came up and I started reading that and could not believe that is what my husband has. I read where there are the ones that are like that as a result of a very bad childhood and the other develop in the teen years because of upbringing. He had a very bad childhood and he is now legally blind at the age of 54 also (which I know is very unfortunate but he was a narcissist before loosing his eyesight) so needless to say, the eyesight also makes it a lot harder on him and intensifies things. We have 3 children, 8,7, and 3 and he has 2 children from a previous marriage that are grown and 3 grandchildren from that as well. I am really trying to work this out but I and my kids are mentally worn out. My 7 year old boy has started developing the same traits as him and is very demanding to me and talks to me the same way my husband does. I have a fear that he will be the same way for ever if I don’t either change my husband or get a divorce. Please let me know what to do. I have not bought any of your books yet but I was just wondering if you think it would really help. I can not even talk to my husband about anything like getting help because he just say’s I am the one that is crazy and that I should get help. I am desperate. KC
Kim,
This is to finish what I was saying about the bible. It does not say that my husband is a narcissist but what I meant to finish saying was that it say’s that the wife can not leave the husband but he can leave the wife. So that is what I meant to say.
KC
just some more thoughts for everyone. In Kim’s verbal abuse Pt 4 we are challenged to look at our own narcissistic tendancies, and I suppose we all have some. I guess it is so easy for my spouse to see mine and his pointing out my flaws cam sometimes still leave me crushed.
My own house of cards is crumbllng at the moment because I should have been more careful and smarter about some sloppy short-cuts. I have to take responsibility for this because I repeatedly get caught thinking that one responsibility of my job is more important that the other. (maybe framing it that way will get through to me ??) I know I feel better in the moment when I focus on the “helping to fix” part, but I feel horrible now because as a result I may not be able to do anyone any good at my current location, and will leave many people disappointed.
My husband was already feeling strain about his own business issues, and now I am adding another anxiety to him. Guilt can get me to trying to help manage his own distress, but it all will become my fault. Experience has taught me I need to just back off and try to allow him some space … _tough_ when I am feeling vulnerable, inadequate and _really_ want to be reassured/soothed. Hopefully I can keep it up tomorrow.
Anxiety / feeling hurt, vulnerable –> need for being nurtured –> ability to take care of yourself –> avoid building to a conflict and starting again
Hi everyone and in particular to CD to thank you once again for your advice and support, as ever welcome to my spirit healing processes.
I had to smile at your metaphor of the ‘Knight in Shining Armour’ and imagining hugging one in all that armour.. you are so right! I may well use that if I may with clients in therapy?
I have moved on in leaps and bounds since last posting here although am dogged by a nasty cold again.. a clear indicator to me that my immune system is under attack from outside influences which have undermined and compromised my usual healthy status. This year I have been ill more than I have been well and I must do something to counteract that at source. This has included earlier nights as I am a notorious night owl and I have already started to feel better for that and certainly stronger emotionally too. It is the one thing I always advise clients who are suffering depression for instance and yet I am not always so good at taking my own well structured advice. I have also started eating regular meals, since this whole N stuff has begun and ended, I have been eating on the hoof.. rushing around here and there and not eating well, deliberately missing out on sitting down to dinner too. I have made time for me also in all this confusion, I have self soothed in many ways, even if it’s just catching up on my fav tv shows which I have recorded but did not have (cough cough…make ) time to watch. In contrast now, I MAKE time for me! I have also started chatting to guys again online, recently I rejoined a dating site which I previously I had used a few years ago and have actually started to talk to a nice, friendly guy who shares one major thing in common with me amongst many others; and that is that we both care for our small granddaughters 2 days a week every week for their mum’s to work. We both love our granddaughter’s to bits and love the fact we have the opportunity to enjoy the pleasures of a small child’s life again, both of us having been hands on with raising our own children. We have decided to be friends first and foremost and see where that takes us and have been planning on places to take the children in the warmer days. It has been good to connect with a man again, even though initially I was really scared to contemplate that. I was so afraid of falling victim to yet another N.. Twice in one’s life is more than enough!
In the aftermath of my breakup, I really was missing my ex N I have to say.. and I am not embarrassed nor ashamed to say so. I don’t miss him enough now though to want him or his drama and chaos back into my life. The longer we are apart, I am really seeing his true colours. The colours were there before, of course, but they were all jumbled up it seems.. a bit like looking through a kaleidoscope, I kept turning it but could not ever quite get the picture to be complete with him and his very odd behaviour. Yet when I was finally able to do so and only after finding this site and a few others and gaining a greater insight into why he was like that, then and only then did the muddled picture right itself. However, I then found in its place a cracked mirror and that once seemingly perfect and beautiful image of my N had suddenly turned into a stark black and white guise, staring out at me from a place I did not recognise. Where he had once engaged freely and openly with me, with lashings of affection and what I hoped was intimacy.. it changed almost overnight, that is the one single thing I think I found the hardest to comprehend.. how quickly he could turn from being the man I loved into someone I did not even recognise. The wolf in sheeps clothing was finally emerging…once he had dropped the disguise of being charming and charismatic with me, he then was unable to fit back into the sheep’s soft, warm and protective coat. He had literally become the wolf in every aspect of his personality, he became constantly cruel and critical, cold and heartless.
As time has gone on though, it has been several weeks now since we formally parted company although I know it was over long before that day… I still think of him but not in the way I have thought of others whom I have parted from.. there is no longing or yearning for him.. I guess because I do not know who he is .. and clearly was with someone who was not being true to himself for the first part and most important part of our courting ritual. I therefore had lost the man I fell in love back after 10 months of being together, although the reality is he was not ever there to begin with. I can see that now much more clearly and with ease and no pain. I have lost the feeling of sadness of being involved with him although I do still remember some of the good times we had. I found the key.
And now my kaleidoscope is bright and turning freely, I decide what pictures I see forming in it if any which is how it should have been before but I handed over that control to him. A mistake I will not make again! I have also realised that I would prefer to be alone than be with someone who does not share my core values about how to treat people with respect, love, compassion and empathy. Life is too short to be with the wrong person.. I could however, potentially spend the next 30 years ( I hope to live well into my 80′s at least!!) and be happy and contented. If this is not meant to be then I will fill my life with other aspects of pure joy. For one, I have been focusing on my grandchild, she is an absolute joy and a gift in its purest form. She and I are going to have great fun together in the future as she grows, as young as she is, I have been telling her all the places her grandma is going to take her and all the fun things we will do together.. I had such a loving relationship with my Gran and it is one I still look back upon with such fond memories.
The sun is shining……and without further adieu, I leave you with this well known quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson, who is one of my best loved authors a man with great vision it seems…
“That which we persist in doing becomes easier for us to do; not that the nature of the thing itself is changed, but that our power to do is increased.”
Think then on that for a moment…imagine the postive benefits of just believing we are happy and/or successful……
Love and light to you all for all your journeys
HM
PS – sorry meant to say could potentially spend the next 30 years with a man.. my life partner/husband….whatever….and be happy and contented.. but what I did not express clearly is that I will aspire to being happy and contented no matter how my life pans out… sharing it with another or with my self!
KC – I just read your post, I am sorry I wish I could say something to you regarding your fears. Alas I cannot add any Christian advice to you as I do not follow your path, but what I can say is that you will get help by reading some of the advice e books that are available on here. I initially downladed Back from the Looking Glass and also purchased the Co-dependence package which includes a hypnotherapy session by Sarah Chambers and I have to say that I felt enormously better after just 1 session of listening to that. I, like others, have also purchased other books to gain an insight into the mind of a narcissist and also to gain knowledge about myself in comprehending why I attracted such a man not once but twice in my lifetime!
I do not believe that the Bible is right in teaching that only a man can leave his wife and not the other way around but as I have said, I do not follow that same pathway. I think though that you need to try and put your religious beliefs to one side for now whilst you learn more about what makes him tick and thus in doing so, what makes you react the way you do. Do you have a pastor/minister whom you can confide in? I do not believe for one moment that you would be expected to not leave a man who was perhaps threatening you or abusing you!
Do what Kim has advised here in her many writings and teachings, gather your support network, be it friends from your church or as I suggested above, your pastor/minister, can you talk to your doctor? Look up the local charities for domestic violence and seek out support there too, remember domestic abuse is not just about someone physically hitting you, it’s about all manner of things.. verbal abuse, keeping you short of money, withholding love and affection, sadly it takes many forms and is not always so easy to diagnose for ourselves.
Feel free to write what you want here as we have all been or are where you are now. We have got through bad times with each other’s support here. I found this site by entering personality traits my ex N had.. lack of empathy, never saying sorry, always being right, verbal put downs, and each time it brought up narcissism and brought me right to this site. That was in January.. life has changed dramatically for me and yet every day I just take as we all do, tiny baby steps! It is surprising how quickly though those baby steps grow and we see how much we too have grown in the process!
Take care of yourself and as Kim will always say to you.. Hang in there! We all did and we are all here for you! You took the 1st step and posted here!
HM xx
Hi,
I just started to read the transcripts from your show on the one more skill to success. Responses are important. Agreed.
My relationship now is changing from a marital one to a relationship that is workable. Sad. But, I think it is the right way to go. I actually think it will be better for our kids. Because I have made the decision to move in the direction of splitting up, my husband is now taking some responsibility with our children. I am finally feeling like I have some room to take care of myself, which in turn helps me to take care of them better, and appreciate them more.
He has not accepted my decision to end the marriage. But, for a LONG time he has been just plain doing the opposite of considering or accepting me at all. And I am afraid standing up for myself and being strong just made it worse. It has gotten to the point of him trying every trick in the book to manipulate me into staying in the marriage. Now, I really don’t trust anything he does, none of it seems real. BUT, he is there for our kids more now, and real or not, that is good! But, I have parented the guy for too long now, 14 years. It is time for him to figure it out for himself, just like the rest of us did. He knows how to act and what to do, he just won’t. And I’m afraid I can’t take the fall for whatever he decides anymore. And when it all shakes down, I really don’t think he enjoys spending time with me anyway. I believe he likes it when I spend time with HIM though. There is a difference.
So, I have spent MONTHS AND MONTHS thinking about how I respond. And trying to modify it. I am not an over-emotional person, so provoking me isn’t easy. Well, my husband is pretty awesome at provoking me! Pretty impressive actually. It is extremely difficult to handle. I have tried to keep my responses as unemotional as possible. I’m ok at it. But that drives him pretty mad and he steps up on the bait. So frustrating. So, now, when we have real issues to discuss about very concrete things, ( just like before all of this marital discord) he avoids it, or uses my need for an adult response to a direct question about logistics to make me mad. Believe me, I have even altered my approaches! Argh!
I think the reason for this is, in the midst of all of this turmoil, it is certainly easier and more satisfying to be angry than it is to actually sit with the reality of it all. Because then, you have to actually do something about it. and since my husband is also excellent at avoidance, he stirs up the pot. I think it probably buys him more time in his own mind. It sucks. and I hope this passes. And because I am in control of me, not him, and this was my decision and NOT HIS, this may never totally pass.
Oh well. Just another reality to face.
Thanks.
Hi Lori,
Many times I have felt immense anguish and despair at the seeming futility of it all and I feel I understand some of what you are going through.
Narcissism can be an extremely difficult disorder to deal with – and it can bring out the worst in people – but when they become aware of what this disorder is and what can be done about it – it can then also bring out the best in people – with enlightenment, understanding and compassion – ultimately making forgiveness possible. If there is any consolation it would be that you would have learned so much and grown stronger from the experience through implementing the philosophies of Kim and Steve’s program.
Whichever path you choose to follow I hope you continue to learn and implement the strategies required to deal with the narcissism – because regardless of whether you leave or stay you will still have a long-term relationship with your husband and your children.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia
Hi MR,
Wendy Behary in “Disarming The Narcissist” says there is narcissism in all of us and I often wonder where I am on her scale between healthy and unhealthy narcissism – by now I hope somewhere between the middle and the healthy end! But realistically I know I will always have something more to learn – and I look forward to hunting out my shortcomings to be the very best I can be – for me.
I hope you were able to resolve the issues happening in your workplace – it must be causing you a great deal of anxiety at the moment. With you being in a caring profession (and highly credentialled and respected in that regard) I would find it hard to believe that you would have any amount of unhealthy narcissism to be concerned about. If you did then I don’t think you would be able to understand the various plights of your clients let alone assist them towards recovery. It is unfortunate that you have been distracted with what you have going on in your home, but surely it is understandable and forgiveable? I don’t want to know the details, but only would like to say that what has happened does not necessarily make you an unhealthy narcissist.
My husband likes to know everything that is going on – he likes to worry about everything – even things that are not directly his concern. He is very opinionated in what should be done or should have been done – he is a “know-it-all” about everything. I am amazed sometimes at his perception (usually negative) of the goings on in other people’s lives – even if he wasn’t privvy to all the details to be able to make an informed judgement – I guess that is what he calls being streetwise. I learned a long time ago not to share everything with him because he gets too anxious and even impulsively gets involved when he should not. I also learned to back off from giving him too much emotional support – even if he was seeking it – because he could become an emotional vampire – but at the same time resent my “interference”.
I am glad to say he has backed right off (touchwood) with the verbal abuse since I told him I was thinking about talking to a DV Officer. All this time I think he has been trying to make me (and the world) hurt as much as he has been hurting, but concealed it with his bully mask. What I am now dealing with a very fragile and vulnerable person who is saying more and more about his fears – fear of turning out like his father, and fear of our son turning our like his grandfather. He said he didn’t want to talk about his childhood or his father a few weeks ago to me or anyone – but now he is starting to make more comments – in his own good time. My fear is I am not the one he should be talking to – it is a delicate matter – and I am so fearful of saying too much, or the wrong thing, only to make the frightened child retreat deep within him again. He really needs a professional for this but he will not agree to it because his father is no longer alive to speak for himself and he feels he would be being disloyal to him.
So I am still walking on egg-shells – but in a different way. . . . a work-in-progress.
CD, Australia
Hi again MR (and everyone),
I thought I should add to my last posting that since my husband has stopped the verbal abuse – he has had a more open mind to the opinions of others and he is noticeably less critical, arrogant and tyrannical – and it is so nice!
To me this indicates that he is demonstrating some self-awareness and perhaps even humility. It seems he is being more honest to himself and to others.
I am hoping that he is realising he is not always right – that being humble is not being weak – that sometimes he can be uninformed, misinformed or have a distorted perspective on things – especially when his perspective is based on his emotions. I don’t know how long this will last for, or if it is an act to save his butt – so – understandably – that level of distrust in me towards him will remain until I can trust myself to stay in charge with emotional maturity, no tears, and with the hindsight of experience.
I know now that my husband is just a “Paper Tiger” and his roar is much worse than his bite!
The Paper Tiger has been masking his fears and inadequacies, and knowing this has allowed me to rise above his roar and trust my own judgement and integrity while still keeping an open mind – and to have the courage to change only the things I can (not people).
Changing attitudes and methods of interaction in a positive way can build trust and attachment to promote healing – easier said than done – but worth doing!
I am guilty of letting some of my responsibilities slide too – but I have been aware of my neglect while pursuing the help I so desperately needed and now I am trying to catch up, make amends if necessary and/or possible, and to live MY life and achieve MY goals once again. It is a good feeling to make that commitment to myself again – and now I am going forward with a whole lot more enlightenment and confidence as to what I am dealing with and how to deal with it. I won’t stop the learning – and reinforcing the four-legged stool, and so on – but I am going to make my life the priority now as each one of us has that responsibility to ourselves, but I just had to take a lot of time out for a while to take charge of my life.
Good luck and stay in charge,
CD, Australia.
My situation is that I am not married- I have been with a guy for 3 years, we did live together for a while but I asked him to move out as we were fighting too much and I have young children and did not want them to be a part of it. I moved to a town where I knew no one to be with him and 2 months after I moved there he disappeared (wouldn’t answer his phone or return calls) for 6 months. I didn’t want to stalk him and go over to where he lives as I figured if he wasn’t calling he doesn’t want to be with. He ended up coming back and the last 2 years has full of fighting, him leaving for weeks or a month at a time and always coming back apologizing and promising things will be better. One time he left I went out on a date as I was trying to move forward with my life and for the last year all I have heard is how I cheated on him even though he wasn’t returning any of my calls. During one of these absences he went and visited an ex girlfriend for a weekend with his kids and I found out about it months later from someone else and he basically told me I was crazy for being upset about it. Mostly he leaves when I try to talk to him about something and he yells throws a fit and leaves for an indefinite amount of time. We decided to try again 2 weeks ago hence why I bought all this material and a couple days ago he stopped calling again. After going to his apt and trying to see why I learned it was because he was still mad that while he was absent for 3 weeks not too long ago I had a guy I kinda know who is an expert in HVAC come over and take a look at my furnaces as I need to get two new ones. Because we sort of knew eachother he would stick around and hang with me and the kids- all platonic on my part and his. He offered to babysit the kids for me one night when I couldn’t find a babysitter for a function I had already paid to go to. My boyfriend and I talked about this when we got back together. I was honest about him being here and watching the kids while he screamed at me for and hour and a half. I thought we moved past it but he has been stewing about it for 2 weeks and now has doubts about us because according to him I am a cheater and a liar and have a pattern of replacing him.
My question is this, am I wrong to try to have friends in my life and move forward while he is missing in action? Is it possible to cure this leaving behaviour or is this outside of what narcissism is, and am I just fighting to be with someone who really doesn’t care a lot about me or really want to be with me. He is not there for me. when I need him to help around the house or with the kids, he forgets or doesn’t return my calls. I have financially supported him for several years. He just recently got a steady job. It seems when he has money he is meaner to me. When he wants to talk about things I have to do it right then and there but if there is something bothering me its me bitching and complaining and he leaves after five minutes leaving me to wonder if it will be another several weeks before I hear from him. There has been one incident of physical abuse a year ago. I worry about my mental state of mind as I am off my rocker. I worry about my kids. I have paid thousands of dollars on counseling to no avail. Is this a situation where I need to give up. And if not, how do you cure someone when you can’t get them to answer their phone?
Thanks!
Transferred from the Narcissism Help Desk
I have been married thirteen years. I have lived 8 of them years, by myself, and remained married. My husband has severe mental illness, bopolar, borderline personality disorder, and nar. personaliety symptoms.
Well, it was over these past holidays, that he picked up drinking again after 7 years of sobriety. He’s on line, posting on my space, declaring me the demon, and he’s kissing his ex-wife. A pic of him on facebook with a women’s bra on.
He’s moved on, i’m a wreck. I need help. My kids, family, friends, AA people, ect. want me to divorce him. They say there’s no hope, what do I do. I’m troubled. Please help me today. thanks
Mary
(Transferred from “A double life” Discussion Topic)
Hi, I discovered this site recently and find it very refreshing as most other sites just advise someone like me to get away (and most other people). My husband meets all the criteria for NPD, and like so many people here my marriage has been fraught with cycles of abuse, remorse/love/closeness and then distance and abuse again.
I would like to work with your suggestions, but have some problems.
I don’t know if I am strong enough to be the one in charge all the time, the one raising him (in addition to my 2 small children!)
I have a lot of anger at how he has hurt me over ten years especially since has has acknowledged none of it – not the serious, not the minor -it is “all my fault” and do not know if I can keep this anger from surfacing – so far I have been miserable at this particularly when he does or sense something that reminds me of deeper or more serious abuse.
But here is the main problem. I have asked him to leave home a month ago (we have had many separations but I always left, since he refused to no matter what the did and depsite me leaving with children…).
I asked him because he was once again physically violent. I made a comment which provoked him (about being unhappy for years about something) and also texted when he wanted to sleep. He reacted by grabbing my metal phone, twisting it till it broke and smashing the screen. Shocked by the violence (it is always shocking), I tried to push him away. He folded me in half like a rag doll, sat on me and said in my air with his hand near my throat “if you touch me I will kill you”.
Maybe it’s that this threat was worse somehow. Maybe its that I got stronger. But i kicked him out, despite him offering peace gifts etc.
It’s been nearly a month, and he has agreed to personal and marital counseling. He seems to genuinely love me and keeps up the flowers and chocoloates etc.
He does show small improvements sometimes, in speaking more softly and trying to listen, though he frequently hangs up the phone on me still if what I said bothers him or is “too emotional” or “too stupid”.
So basically, I am concerned that if I keep him out of the house, I will lose him. And if I let him back at this early stage I may be setting myself up for inevitable abuse (and my children for trauma if they see or hear)
What can I do?
Thank you for your emails. I read them eagerly. They are so inspiring. You are so inspiring. Thank you for going against the grain, and making a different ending happen, and telling us all out there that are treated to the same tired advice (abusive -leave him). You guys are refreshing. And I’m so glad you made it.
Sarah
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Dear Kim,
Hi, I don’t now where to start with everything so I will just begin. My husband and I have been together nearly 16 years, he has always been very controlling and at times abusive. I always forgave him and we continued on happily I thought. We married about 2 ½ years ago and we have to children. Last August I found the all the text messages to a co worker of his and confronted him about this. He got very upset about me looking at the cell phone bill and that was his personal stuff and that he can have a female friend. I asked why he never told me about her and he said that it was his life. It has continued on sense then, they have become sexual and he is having an affair. I have asked him to stop and why he would do this, all I get is I want my freedom, manhood, and happiness. I am my own person and I am trying to find myself. Trying to talk to him is like talking to a wall it is always back on me as nagging and bitching. His behavior has become awful. He wants distant and space. He goes out all the time till sometimes 3 – 4 in the morning on weekends and will never tell me who he is with as it is not my business it is his life. This double life is horrible. Now he talks about separation and then he will say how much he loves me in the same breath. This is a man who use to adore me and love me so much, we were best friends and did everything thing together. His family has even noticed a HUGE change in him as he has cut himself off from the family and has become someone we all don’t know. We are all scared from him. He has also talked about divorce but says it has to be mutual if we do. I told him I will not leave him but this has to stop. When I say that he gets very mad stating that I am telling him what to do. To be honest he has always done what he wanted to do regardless of what I thought. He is also rewriting our history stating he married me to please me. And now he is telling people that I am the one having an affair and I am the one going out all the time which people know the truth of that and know it is not true. He has always been a little off thinking that people are following him and also making up nasty stories of me when mad at me and he starts to believe his own lies. He is very judgmental and always loving our house and truck more then me. He takes very good care of HIS things. He claims the house and truck as his but they are both in our name. Everything was once ours now I hear I or MY all the time. He ever makes jokes at my expense on this, like last night I was taking out summer clothes and he looked and said “Moving out” with a smile on this face then asked me to cook him some eggs all while he is texting. He has moved his cell phone off the family plan to his own account as it gives him some independence he said. My husband is gone and lost and thinks this life makes him happy. I see emptiness and coldness in his eyes now and he hates me it seems like. I hate the weekends as I know what I am up against. Other woman and his partying. This is a man who always had these tendencies but was a family man, had great faith (was getting there) father and husband. Now he is gone so far and thinks that it is okay to be this way. He will leave to pay a bill at 7 pm and not come home till 2:45am. If I ask where he is he will say “hanging”. I can not compete with this other life and other woman. I need you help. I want to save him and our marriage. I love this man with everything that I have. I have never turned my back on him through all the storms that we have had. I have always been there no matter what and always forgave him out of that love. Please help me try to get to the root of this issues that he is having and see if I can help him before it is to late.
Hi Mary,
I hope that you are a member of Al-Anon which is a support group for the family and friends of those who may be having problems in their lives associated with alcohol. In Al-Anon you can get some very real and strong support during this time that your husband has departed from his sobriety and Alcoholics Anonymous. The AA and Al-Anon programs do address the behaviour associated with alcoholism. I learned in Al-Anon that the “ism” part of the word “alcoholism” means “I, me, self” which is what some of the behaviour behind alcoholism is – self-centredness and self-absorption.
It is not surprising then that “narcissism” ends in “ism” too because the behaviour behind that is also about self-centredness and self-absorption. But narcissism is also about fantasy – the inability or reluctance to face reality. Fantasy exists too also in the alcoholic who suffers deeply from his own emotional immaturity and pain – a suffering that is masked or medicated by alcohol in trying to reach a state of euphoric happiness and escape from pain – the image of “the stable and happy go lucky guy” – the fantasy.
As life goes on the “happy go lucky guy” never really grows up emotionally and he may either continue to behave like an out of control teenager, or he will retreat into social isolation, or he will alternate between those two places, but ultimately he will stay in denial that he is his own problem and that he may have become addicted to alcohol. Alcoholism is a dependency on a mood altering substance just like any other recreational drug.
When I first joined Al-Anon and I was so deeply troubled, anxious, confused, angry, hurt and so on – I (and the group) were very fortunate to have a lady in our group who had been through a complete cycle with her alcoholic husband. She suffered many years from the behaviour associated with her husband’s addiction to alcohol, and then, after she had declined to a point of utter despair, she was fortunate to have found her way into Al-Anon. After a long time in the program and a slow but amazing recovery, she found her own solution to her situation and the strength to say to her husband one day:
“Dennis, I love you very much, but I have made a decision to divorce you due to your alcoholism. If you ever find your sobriety and recovery through Alcoholics Anonymous, and have been sober and in the AA program for at least two years, and you would like to resume a relationship with me then I will be prepared to discuss it with you, but right now I must do what is best for me.”
Co-incidentally her name was Mary too. Mary said it broke her heart to have to let her husband go, but she knew that if she did not he would surely and eventually die from his alcoholism – and her health and well-being was constantly suffering too.
They divorced and many years passed by. Sometimes when her husband came to visit their children, her heart broke even more to see the state he was in – he had reduced to literally being in the gutter, living under a bridge, dirty, shabby, smelly, underweight and pitiful.
But even though her decision was not easy – and there was an ever strong urge to help him – she knew she had made the right decision for herself and her children otherwise they would have ended up in the gutter alongside him sooner or later too.
Then one day her husband did find his sobriety, and his way into AA. He was to eventually become a stable and emotionally mature man – to the degree that he sponsored many others to their sobriety. He and Mary re-married and lived a full and happy life together until several years later when he died in his sixties (from the damage that the alcohol had done to his system during his drinking years).
Dennis had a great influence also on the Al-Anon members and frequently spoke to us about what it is like being an alcoholic – and he often emphasised that it is not just about the physical addiction to alcohol – but the behaviour, emotional immaturity, guilt and denial behind the addiction that is the biggest obstacle to finding sobriety and staying sober – as with any form of addiction.
The AA program teaches that without emotional, mental and spiritual recovery – staying sober from the physical addiction to alcohol is extremely difficult to maintain both in the short term and long term. It is not just about will-power. Kim and Steve also have some nutritional advice on reducing alcohol cravings.
Sadly, Mary has since passed too, but when she spoke her story many times at our meetings, especially when there were newcomers – she would emphasise that the decision she made was one she made for herself – and that each one of us must find their own solutions to their unique situations – that the AA and Al-Anon programs do not tell us what to do – that we must find our own way.
Mary and Dennis were a true success story – and both displayed so much humbleness and humility toward each other and to all those they came in contact with. It was hard to believe their recounted stories of how they had both behaved either badly or negatively during Dennis’s drinking years – but they were genuine and shared their truth in order to help others – and they greatly helped me get perspective on my life and marriage – the same way Kim and Steve have done also with their openness and honesty.
If you have not already purchased “Back From The Looking Glass” etc from Kim & Steve – then I hope you will purchase it without delay to help you recover from the effects of your husband’s disorders. Hopefully your husband finds his sobriety and emotionally stability again soon – he may outwardly appear happy – and be blaming you and the rest of the world for his difficulties – but that is the nature of his disorders.
Please know that I have only relayed Mary & Dennis’s story to you to hopefully support you if your husband is determined to follow his current lifestyle – only you can know what is best for you – if you are in doubt then do nothing until you do know what to do – because doing nothing for now is still doing something.
It is not easy watching someone you love behaving irrationally, and it is easy to feel hurt – but do take care of yourself first and always – this is something you can and must do right now – Easy Does It – One Day at a Time.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Sarah, I have been in a relationship with my partner for nearly 10 years, and we also have 2 young children. I recently worked out, after becoming so desperate for help and thinking I was going crazy, that my partner has NPD. I have suffered from depression most of my adult life, and have isolated myself from all friends and most of my family. I too felt like you, when I came upon Kim and Steve’s story, that I didn’t and still don’t have the strength to raise two small children, work, take care of the house and re-parent my partner. What you need to realize is how strong you are already! To put up with years of abuse, uncertainty, heart breaks, reassurances and then BAM the abuse comes right back! What I have come to realize, and one of the most important mistakes I made, was my NPD partner does not respond “normally” to criticism, (constructive or otherwise)or me trying to please him. Try to avoid these two pitfalls as much as you can while always being assertive, show you care, but do not tolerate any abuse! As Kim said in her e-books, and although I read it I kept doing it,(and still do, I’m not perfect!) avoid any conversations that you are uncomfortable with and practice specific lines to stay out of them. Then make sure you do not play therapist/councilor to your husband, it is so draining! I hear you when you talked about the physical abuse, shocking, and makes it so real. It hurt me so much when my partner who I still trusted, started to push me. The last time he did this I was so scared but it made the abuse “concrete”. I just looked him in the eye and slapped him across the face. Although he denied pushing me after this, I put my hand up said “STOP, you will never lay a hand on me in violence again, if you try to I will go straight to your mother and tell her what you have done!” I am not advocating you do this, because it may put you in danger, but you need to stand up to him and have backup. My mother in law is next door and I know how she would react to her son physically abusing the mother of her grandchildren. My partner knows only too well too. Perhaps you should build up your assertiveness before letting your husband back in the house. Look after yourself and your kids first! Good luck!
Sarah
I wish I had definite answers for you, but I’ll give you my thoughts because about a year to 18 months ago I really was struggling with the idea of needing to have my husband leave, being afraid/unsafe as his temper and rage were flaring at me, and wondering how could I handle leaving with 3 small children. I can relate to the fatigue that comes from managing little children and an adult that is also acting like a little child (some of us also have older parents who are just as needy
At some level I knew I could survive it, but the idea of getting through that hurdle was frightening and overwhelming.
As many have said on this site – when a spouse becomes that rageful, something is behind it. For some it seems to be some behavior they are covering up, for others it is covering over fear/anxiety/uncertainty. Pushing back in the moment doesn’t seem to help, and for myself, I have found I am more apt to respond back or get defensive when I too am feeling insecure – a real catch 22. Figuring out how to take care of yourself (and enjoy your kids) can start to help.
If your husband is out of the house, perhaps you can re-engage with him around something fun with the children. Remind him what was good in your relationship, without discussing it. Keep the boundaries very clear (no discussion that makes you uncomfortable, keep the interaction in a public place etc.) These are baby steps but they offer some hope. If you have them, review as much as you can from Kim’s books and audio shows (how to access these is written several times earlier in this blog) Sometimes doing this when you are frustrated can help to settle down and not feel so hopeless. It is a difficult process with ups and downs that will leave you questioning if you can make it. For myself and I assume for many others here, there is enough behind our relationships that we seek a strategy to make our relationship better. The hope offered by others who have done so is enough to keep trying.
I’ve gotten to a state where many days are pretty good. I am saying this at a time when my security is vulnerable for many reasons. Today my spouse said some unfair and hurtful things although probably trying to be helpful, I got defensive and pushed back, escalated but eventually able to disengage. Later we were able to talk through it enough to end the day in an “ok” place.
Hope that helps …
MR
Just another question to toss out for everyone …
When are comments “constructive criticism” and when are they abusive? Is it simply a matter of the perspective of the receiver? Does the perspective of the sender matter? … with verbal remarks it is difficult to have an objective line. Often I am still fighting feeling overly criticized or indignant about a “criticism,” and having a hard time seeing the kernel of truth in the remark, but rather focusing on the flaws in what was said or how it was said. Some things are still my weakness and insecurity, somethings are clearly too much, but even with that it is not always necessary or prudent to comment back. A stronger person could not internalize the unnecessary tone, yet still hear and learn from the valid message. Is that ever a challenge.
Is commenting repeatedly and critically about your appearance, on your clothing choices, on your facial expression and perceived level of enthusiasm, your profession and your parenting abusive? At some level I think it is, but I also am and have always recognized that _some_ of what is being said is valid, and because of how it is said and because it is difficult to hear, a “victim” type response is triggered in me (which in and of itself fuels the cycle.)
Recently I came across a situation (not in my own life) where even physical grabbing to prevent harm was hard to distinguish if it was abusive. The recipient of the “grabbing,” was not always acting in a safe, reasonable or rational way – with a very long history of this; yet bruises were left by the grabber, and it was done out of responsive frustration – without intention to hurt. I know where the law is on this, but in the circumstances the lines are fuzzier.
Pardon the meta-level pondering here …
MR
Hi MR.
I ponder the same question and here is my take on this subject. I feel that it the criticism is in how it is delivered. I feel that when I feel the need to express a criticism I am very careful in the delivery, such as tone, attitude and so forth. But we all know that some people don’t have that talent so it is hard not to get defensive and to listen with an open heart. I myself take some time to mull over what was said, then decide whether it has merit, if not I then go back to that person and tell them such and even if they are right in saying what they said to me, I tell them in the future to please be more kind in their words, because next time I might not listen to them at all. As for the grabbing I would really put a stop to that, unless it was a young child or an uncontrolable child with mental issues who would not remember previous warnings about safety. I hope that helps. Love to you all.
Hi Kim and Steve,
I stumbled onto your website a couple of weeks ago and it was a Godsend. My crazy relationship with my live-in boyfriend/fiancee of 6 years suddenly made sense. We were both divorced when we first got involved but he was still emotionally attached to his ex-wife, even though they lived mostly apart during a very volatile 5 year marriage. Early in our relationship there was severe alcohol abuse, verbal, emotional and physical abuse. I was torn between wanting him out (I was always the one with the apartment and the steady income) but still loving him and wanting to help him. He went back to his ex-wife several times ( to “try again”) in the first five years of our relationship.Of course that was devastating to me.It would never last long and I would give in & take him back. He has stopped drinking completely for over a year and we were finally getting to a more stable relationship in spite of the problems,and he asked me to marry him in the next few months. He still can be very critical at times and has moods were he is really difficult to be around. At other times he is very warm & loving. He never seemed to be as interested in sex as I was and I would frequently find he would rent porns when I wasn’t home. He recently admitted to me he’s had a porn addiction all his life,
In the past year, our financial circumstances have reversed. I was laid off from my job (I had a 6 figure income) when the economy tanked but he secured a job as a superintendent of an apartment complex which came with a free apartment all expenses paid. Life was good, the ex-wife issues finally seemed resolved but now he’s contacting old girlfriends on face book, exchanging phone numbers, and spending time in chat boxes with them, while he ignores me right in our home. After dealing with the ex wife issues for 5 years this was a little too much to take. I tried talking calmly at first, and told him this was insulting to me but he would not stop because, since they are married he feels it’s ok.One of them asked him to get away for the weekend & meet her. He did set her straight but she persists in calling. The other wanted to meet us both, and being a good sport I went along with it, but then afterward my boyfriend told me she whispered something inapropriate to him. Now she calls him frequently. My boyfriend was a professional musician/rock star for years but he’s now out of the music business. I wound up having an emotional meltdown over this and he threw (not literally) me out of the apartment. I am staying with friends until I start my new job in a month and I have a new apt to move into in a month which is 2 hours away from him. He called a couple days later and wanted to work things out and I calmly told him we both would need to do some work and make some changes if this was going to be repairable. the conversation came back to what initially caused it and he got very angry & defensive & stated he would talk to whoever he wanted, whenever he wanted because he would never cheat on me and I was just insecure and friendless (which I’m not). I asked him if it was worth losing me to be able to keep an active friendship with these two old girlfriends and he stormed out of the apartment. I left, never went back and blocked his phone number so he can’t call and I wouldn’t tell him where I was staying.
My question is, for an engaged couple is it acceptable to have this kind of ongoing contact with old flames? It seems needless and hurtful to me that he saves his best for these ex’s. I do love him but I am ready to walk away (already have) and this time stay away. Could I have handled this differently?
Hi everyone
Sorry not been about for a bit but life has been hectic to say the least! What with clients coming through the door, caring for my granddaughter twice a week or more and my mum on a full time 24/7 basis, and trying to get my house in order, I have had little time to get on the pc.
I am off now to pick up my precious little bundle for 2 days here but I just wanted to say hi to you all.. CD, Trisha.. MR.. John..Allison…..all of you! Thinking of you and have been reading your recent posts which I will look at in more depth in the next few days when the tornado is sleeping (20 month old)
Take care
With you in spirit
HM
I have read a lot of messages this morning, and I’m grateful that this website is available. I need some advise because I am hurting today. I have been married for thirteen years, but have lived separately for eight years. The relationship has been no intimacy (for at least two years, physically) but I have tried to maintain a friendship with my husband. Well, he doesn’t want to see me at all right now. As of this past November, we have not seen each other, because (after 7 years, of him not drinking), he picked up a drink of alchol. He is borderline personality disorder, with what I believe is N as well. He went away over the holidays, no contact, with us, and then came back to our hometown. He went to help out one of his kids (her being pregnant, and spending a great deal of time, with his ex-wife), well, the myspace is that he went on it, blogging about the marriage (of course in a negative way, and showing pic of him with her, (the ex-wife, kissing, and saying that they were having a sexual affair. This is how I found out…what a way…anway, i called him several times, most recently, he doesn’t want to see me, and he says that I hurt him in several ways, and that he is not “in love” with me anymore, but that he does care about me. I am so hurt…He says that I don’t understand him, he lost his job, (he doesn’t want to stop drinking, he wants that life< ect. ect.
I have filed previously for legal separation (he wants it, and he bugs me about it constantly, about he is in trouble with the IRS, he hasn't paid taxes in at least 2/or three years). The court date hasn't come up yet, I don't want to file for divorce, because I still love him, but my children (grown, from a previous marriage) say to divorce him, he's a loser, abusive to me, ect. ect.
Everyone says to divorce him, except I know that I love him, what do I do? i've been in therapy (they say to divorce him), AA program (divorce him, they say), abuse meetings (say to divorce him)..ect ect.
I'm confused, hurt, sad, and co-depend. I support myself financial, and live alone. Please help, as he doesn't want to see me, and it's been months. Sure, I've made mistakes, yelled at him over the phone, and not responded in a good manner either. I love life, and I'm doing the best that I can.
Thanks everyone for listening today. God Bless, and I'm trying to find Peace today.
Once again I find myself in a state of disappointment and frustration…..
I was asked to order something and two weeks later was confronted about the whereabouts of the item..I mentioned I had forgot and would take care of it immediately. This was answered with “whats wrong with you”…you do this all the time…I get up in a good mood and EVERY day you agrivate me…I’m not doing this anymore. To this I let go with “fine…we’ll get a divorce because I am allowed to forget and make every effort to follow thru with things of correct issues as they happen.”
This was not acceptable and only brought on more comments and yelling. When the yelling started I said I would not allow her to yell at me and if she wanted to talk fine otherwise I would leave…this brought “don’t you walk out on me” and I said “you havve a choice to make…talk to me. Your yelling is your CHOICE of how to handle the situation.
Things did not get any better and she stormed out of the room. I went and got the item I had forgotten and returned home. I found her and said I corrected the situation and was told we were “really” thru this time and that for the 30 years of s..t that SHE had been put thru her revenge would be to go out and have an affair and not tell me. This is the second time this has been brought up as a threat.By now it is difficult to ignore these comments and not reply…I was told I was invading her “space” and to get out of the house (go to work) and get out of her life. Pretty hard things to hear over something that was not doen to her intentionally or deliberatly. I find it impossible to solve any
issues with any explanation and have it understood.
We have been in a state of idleness for better than a year and I can’t see how this will ever ge back to a calm state of affairs at the rate it’s going.
I realized 18 months ago that due to the way I feel I really can’t see myself finishing my life in this relationship. I do not feel that either one of us is here for any other reason than convience and lack of strenght to go our seperate ways.
We seem to be is a bad place and don’t seem to find much happiness between us…our lives semm to have gone in other directions and there is alot of resentment and anger towards eachother which niether of us care about fixing. Every issue has all the past issues brought in as ammunition and the core of the arguement gets completely blurred and lost.
I have been able to not direct a comment back to things said and that seems to be the only way to avert confrontation.
It feels like she does not give a crap what she says or expects of me or if I even like what she says.When confronted with something I don’t like the response…unless she is factually wrong….is that I am acting in a childish manner and why don’t I grow up and become an adult. Every thing seems to get diverted…to the point where I settle for just being able to tell her my unhappiness and let it go.
I would like some ideas or suggestions as to what to do and how to keep strenght in these times.
Thanks for reading
in peace and hope
jo
Hi Everyone,
Regarding MR’s meta-level pondering – which I think is basically about where do you draw the line between “constructive criticism” and “abuse”? This has been a hot potato for me throughout my marriage – deciding what is “constructive criticism” and what is “abuse” – all I know is too much “salt” spoils the stew!
The only credential I have attached to my thoughts and comments below is that I have lived with an abusive/bullying husband now for more than 35 years, and I have been guilty of behaving very badly and immaturely during that time too. My thoughts and comments have evolved from my personal life experience and limited understanding of what I have learned from others especially from Kim & Steve and from a self-growth program called Al-Anon – therefore I am not assuming that I am “right” or a “guru” – I am just sharing what I believe or understand regarding criticism and abuse to be – right at this moment in time – therefore anyone who reads this can take what they like – and leave the rest.
I do apologise for the length of this post – however “criticism” can be extremely toxic and damaging in any relationship not only for the receiver, but for the sender too. Learning how to deal with constructive and/or abusive criticism can release people from harshness and oppression to mental, emotional & physical freedom to live their own lives – and the key to this freedom is inside of each one of us – the key is our level of knowing, loving and accepting ourselves and others for who we really are – both the good and the not so good – in other words our level of self-esteem or self-worth.
It is impossible to stop being on the receiving end of criticism all the time therefore it is necessary to learn how to deal with it physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. It is definitely worth the contemplation, input and discussion – I do hope to read more opinions from others regarding criticism here too as we all learn so much from each other – and it is probably one of the biggest issues each of us has to deal with.
Criticism can be useful just as much as it can be harmful – and according to Wikipedia’s definition:
“Criticism is the judgment (using analysis and evaluation) of the “merits” and “faults” of the actions or work of another individual. Criticism can mean merely to evaluate without necessarily finding fault; however, usually the word implies the expression of disapproval.”
So my main contemplations are: Can any interaction between two or more people be without “criticism” or “analysis and evaluation”? When is “criticism” abuse? Is it the element of “disapproval” (whether perceived or intended disapproval) the part of criticism that we take offence to? Are we open to objectively hear “constructive criticism” whether it is valid or not? Some of my thoughts are as follows:
• We analyse and evaluate everything and everyone that we are exposed to everyday – it is impossible to do otherwise;
• Based on our analysis and evaluation – we use our judgment constantly to act upon as we live each day of our lives (whether it is doing something or doing nothing);
• Criticism (analysis and evaluation) is a necessary part of working as a team, whether it be in a relationship that is romantic, platonic, sporting, working, artistic, and so on;
• Constructive criticism is criticism kindly meant that has the goal of improving some area of another’s person’s life or work.
• Constructive criticism is meant to help improve or make us aware . . . . express concern or caring . . . .keep communication open or clear the air . . . . motivate us to make positive change.
• Destructive criticism is meant to hurt or humiliate and belittle, manipulate and/or control, blame or create guilt, or to get attention.
In response to MR’s question: “Is commenting repeatedly and critically about your appearance, on your clothing choices, on your facial expression and perceived level of enthusiasm, your profession and your parenting abusive?”
When one examines the different dynamics of constructive criticism versus destructive criticism by analysing and evaluating what has been said, and how it was said (including verbal tone, volume/loudness, and body language) you can then assess what is valid constructive criticism and what is destructive criticism. What is meant to be constructive criticism may also contain an added level of (unnecessary) destructive criticism or abuse.
If the criticizer calls you names, or makes disparaging remarks, either within criticism or as a direct criticism, about your physical appearance, how you dress, your intellect, your sexuality, or if they put you down in any way – then that is abuse – it contains all the hallmarks of destructive criticism.
I believe also that too much criticism (hyper-criticism) can be abusive too – especially where praise or positive feedback is not as readily given as the negative criticism is. So when negatively criticised – analyse and evaluate whether “this criticism” is just one more small or large criticism in a never-ending stream of hyper-criticism that the receiver has to swim against or drown in?
How do you deal with criticism? I love this “snip it” from a daily reading in the Al-Anon program which is so valuable regarding dealing with criticism – whether it be constructive or destructive criticism.
“The contented, well-adjusted person has no need to look for flaws in others. If in our thinking one critical thought leads to another, the habit of making adverse judgments can grow into a major fault. Such criticism has the effect of pushing love right out of the picture.”
My immediate response to this reading was that if my husband were contented and well-adjusted then he would have no need to look for flaws in me. However the reading was directed at its Al-Anon member – ME – the only person I can change – and the sobering fact was that I had to look very closely at my style of communication and improve upon my attitudes to rise above any immature interaction between my husband and I. Doing this was not only good for me, it was to also set a positive example to my husband – and to reveal that two wrongs don’t make a right.
It was and still remains very challenging for me to stay calm and mature when faced with criticism or adversity – sometimes I am so exhausted by it I just want to give up and leave. I find it difficult that my husband’s tyranny and tantrums take so much out of me, and when I take a stance against it, he may retreat and reflect for a while, but just when I think he may have got the message and may be changing his attitude in response to knowing that I will not accept unacceptable behaviour, and that it is time to get over it – he then lashes out again not only at me but toward everyone and everything that has caused him to be in such a place of self-pity and resentment. It is like this is his method of taking “control” again – and punishing me for daring to take him to task – at the same time he is looking for me to be sorry for taking him to task, and wanting me to console him, the victim, and to become subservient to him.
Part of the problem is that whenever I say “no” to him, he does not know how to gracefully and respectfully accept “no” for an answer, and he does not always show his displeasure immediately – but he will bottle it up and explode later because I dared to say “no” to him. (I have only said “no” as a choice for myself and not out of wishing to control him or to reject him – but he doesn’t see it that way). He will later “pay me back” in some way or other for having the audacity to have said “no” to him – I guess this is part of his tyrannical ways. I guess also that this is a legacy from my old overly self-sacrificing days of co-dependency that he still seeks from me – and I am continuing to deal with this – however just when it seems like I am getting somewhere I cop it again and again, and it seems like I am never going to win this battle against his unacceptable, tantruming and emotionally threatening behaviour. Sadly, I think this man needs a stronger person than me!
CD, Australia.
cd
In reading your last blog above I can find myself in your shoes….the criticism can be draining and you are told how draining YOU are for causing the N for having to get so upset. So both the view of the N and the rage in them is your fault…it can be totally wrong and not even true but if they believe it it IS true and either you go along for the ride which will end with the whole thing being your fault OR you say the truth and challenge the situation which causes the N to become more upset that you have the nerve to ???????? them. Either way you lose…you cannot get them to admit ANY part of the problem as theirs and by pushing you get more problems thrown at you and deeper into the hole they are digging for you without you even knowing its happening. If you ignore the situation you are damned fro this and if your agree you are patronizing and that is not accepted.
One thing I notice if that there is no way to combat this with a positive outcome for yourself where you can feel a victory for yourself and that you actually have made some progress that will stick.
If I assume I should do something then I should have asked and that becomes an issue…….if I ask then I should have known how to handle the situation or known what the N wanted or needed. If I do something and mention the effort I am told that she did not ask me to do anything and why should she notice anything which is normal. HOw do you figure this out??????
I feel like I can win some battles but NEVER will I win the war.
I know that I do not do everything the way she thinks it should be done and and told I do nothing right…a great moral booster to say the least.
I am told that everyday she wakes up to something which I have done to upset her day before she ever gets started.
I am fearing that she is correct and if I am ever alone in the world I will find out she has been right all along. This dependency is a horrible feeling to realize and fight within myself.
The silence is the only time where there is any peace…and that becomes an issue because I am told I totally avoid her when I am home…which is somewhat true.
I have not been able to have a conversation with her that starts out colmly and finishes the same.
I a running out of feeling for this relationship and feel numb…as you must in your situation.
It hurts to be told that when things are good that that is the way its supposed to be and there should be no mention of this….however when the stuff hits the fan there aren’t enough hours in the day to hear about every little thing from the past and the present which are horrible.
I guess thats enough for now.
in confusion
john
Hi everyone, CD, John…
I have just been reading your posts about criticism and remember oh so well the damage that this did to my equilibrium and my self esteem over the 2 years that I was with my ex N boyfriend and the previous 19+ years with my ex N husband..it literally broke my heart but not my spirit thankfully but it was getting close each time.
Criticism over complaint is very damaging and is without any doubt verbal abuse. In therapy we talk of the 4 Riders of the Apocalypse when I see clients for relationship problems.. in basic terms if more than 2 of these issues are present in a couple’s relationship, the more unlikely it is for them to recover and repair their damaged relationship. If 3 are present is it highly unlikely and if 4 are prsent, well it is not recommended to treat them as the relationship may be so damaged that it is not repairable without huge sacrifices to be made and usually on the part of the person seeking out the help.. whereas their spouse/partner may see themselves above needing to change their behaviour. Both of you have to want to change I believe to reach a compromise and a willingness to work things out.
What I could not establish with either of my ex N’s was a means for them to accept that they played any part in the breakdown in our relationship. Therefore we were doomed. One party cannot hold things together unless the other party is willing to accept that there are issues on their side.. they have to at the very least accept at some level that they have a part to play in this. I truly believe many of you are fighting a losing battle and would be better off irrespective of whether you have children or not, to get out and get on with your lives whilst you are ‘young’ enough to do so. I split from my husband at the age of 45 and that was hard enough, I had 2 teenage children at home and it really was a challenge.
However…..and I cannot stress this enough, I found this latest break up earlier this year much harder to deal with as my children have flown the nest, than when I had them with me at home to help take off some of the hurt and fear. Now I am alone and have had to deal with that aspect. I have at times experienced a great deal of feelings of loneliness and isolation. Weekends were the worst as I have very few single girlfriends to do things with and my married/coupled up friends are always so busy at weekends with their families. It has given me though, a lot of time to myself to think things through. It has not been as easy as I thought it may be.. and until very recently I was thinking of him every day.. not always in the same thought process but still the thought was there. I also missed him very much for about 3 months and I can say that as each day passes, I know I have come a step further in releasing him from my mind and letting go of the man he was at any level.
I wish I had left my husband and freed my children up from all that anguish at seeing their father lose his temper so frequently much much sooner than I did, rather than enduring the 19½ years of it that I did. My children do have their issues now as a result and I feel some element of guilt over that.. not as much now as I once did as I did the best I could given my circumstances at the time. They do not hold me guilty but I do feel they feel their father has a lot to answer for as now as young adults they are able to see him and his behaviour in a more realistic mature way.
I realise that not every situation is the same.. there are men and women out there who will accept that they have a problem and will work with you for the sake of their marriages or children to salvage something .. but there are just as many if not more that will not ever do that no matter how many times you talk to them about it or show them how their behaviour is damaging everything.
You are all wearing yourselves out, just as I did. I was exhauted mentally, physically and emotionally with both the N’s in my life but I was much much stronger when younger.. this time in my mid 50′s it was so much more problematic for me to handle and earlier this year I was very low and sad at being in that sort of destructive relationship once again in my life. When I finally closed the door on it, I was devastated by yet another broken relationship and this past 4 months since it was over, I have been to hell and back. I have cried buckets for this lost relationship but only weeping for the man that I thought I had fallen in love with .. not the man he really was in reality!
It has taken me a long time to recover from this. In 2 years he caused a lot of damage as I had internalised all the crap he fed me.. I lost my confidence in so many ways and yet prior to meeting him I was full of confidence and was a successful therapist. Yet this marred his view of himself and so he did what he could to break that down in me so that in the end, I doubted everything I did and thought. Very clever of him and all within the name of love .. as he called it. I truly believed he did love me once when we first broke up.. now I see that he most likely did not as I doubt that he actually really knows what love is. I now can see too that my ex husband did not love me nor does he really love our children.. again I am not making judgements on everyone out there.. this is what I know of MY life.
I have had a few men ask me out for dates recently and so far have said no as was not ready but slowly I have been recovering and have re-established my therapy work too and things are really on an upward turn instead of the ever decreasing downward spiral I was caught up in being involved with an N and a particularly nasty sadistic one at that!
My close friends are saying how much more like my old self I am .. pre meeting him and also what is interesting is that when you compare photos taken of me last year against ones taken the 1st year I met him and with this year .. I look happy and rested in 2008.. ill and stressed in 2009 and better than I looked before things started to go pear shaped 14 months prior to us splitting up. I did this same check with my photos taken when I was with my husband and the same applies.. during the 1st year when things were pretty good with my husband, I looked well and happy.. by the time we were 5 years in to the marriage, I looked so stressed out.. dark circles under my eyes and I gained weight…due to comfort eating and loss of interest in exercise as was so under the thumb it was not true! I had lost a huge part of myself in both the marriage and my involvement with the recent N.. but I am finding myself again and I would like to say to you all out there, it does improve! It does get better .. yes it is hard to put a nail in the coffin of your marriages/relationships.. but PLEASE PLEASE think about your own mental and physical health in all this. It is no secret that our physical health is drastically undermined when we are under attack from abuse, be it verbal or physical.. and in most cases, verbal abuse .. i.e., constant criticisms and put downs or even just being afraid of outbursts is seriously undermining your health. I have had 2 cancer scares this year.. and last October I was being tested for underactive thyroid as my once curly hair ceased to curl and it was falling out in handfuls.. my thyroid was fine… guess what has happened since I ended it with the N boyfriend? My hair has returned to its former glory.. my hair is shiny, thicker and curly once again! It was without question the stress being removed! All the other stresses are still there.. caring for my mother and financial concerns re the recession etc and being mortgaged up to the hilt but those were like that for 3 years before ending this and so the only thing that has changed is getting him out of my life permanently.. that single act alone has restored my health and vitality and I have been given the all clear on both the cancer scares! Hallelujia! There is life after an N trust me!
Sorry Kim and Steve, this is in no way intended to insult your decision to stay together as I have to say that you Steve are the exception to the rule it seems for most of the men/women on here who have NPD! Well done to you both for finding the means and the courage that goes with that to making it work for you and to Steve for having the vision to accept your shortcomings and issues! You are rare!
Love to you all .. how are you Trish.. ? Have been thinking of you and see that there are no posts from you for some time! Hope you are okay honey!
HM
Increasingly I find no satisfaction in confronting my wife with any situation that has something to do with her upsetting me or saying something which should get an answer from me but I feel is not worth the effort. This is due to the fact that no matter what I say regarding her it is immediately repeated back to me in the form of a question to which I now have to answer…and the issue has shifted to her ??? and my answers. This is very frustrating and hard to turn back around. It’s as if nothing sticks to her and she in not (she thinks) responsible for her actions or statements to me. Swearing, put downs, name calling, silence…you name it I’ve heard it.
Things seem to have to be the way she sees things with very little…if any…changes to the original situation and if and altering happens it causes all sort of havoc. It is very difficult for me to adhear to all this as I fell more like a child doing what I am told and less like an adult with some sense and brains. This control is extremely strong in her and has always been and issue. It seems that the littlest things can cause a major frairup and the quickness with which she blurts out another fault of mine and the retaliation for the issue is crazy.
Silence if my only friend…along with realization that to confront or amswer any of the issues only opens the door for more of the same and will end with a huge fight and the assumption that the whole thing was started by me and is obvoiusly my entire fault. This goes to silence and the situation is NEVER resolved…just added to the pile for the next round.
My feeings of strength seem minimal in the big picture…confrontation and silence both have a dull ending and the pain nefver goes away enough for a moment of happiness and a ray of sunshine.
If I try and defend myself it is a challlenge to deflate the statements and turn the whole thing around to solving her ????? with a repsonse which will be incorrect and bring on another response which now has to be answered and so on. The only way to stop this is to continnually repeat the original statement and say that this is waht we are discussing at the moment…sometimes it works…other times its viewed as control from me and that is now the issue.
I am trying to stay neutral with my feelings and NOT get upset and chace her with MY issues…but this doesn’t change anything between us.By not confronting her she isn’t held accountable for her actions and how it affects me…the reverse of this statement is not the same.
I once felt like I was totally at fault for the problems…then I felt I was partially at fault for situations and the rest was her view of the same…then I felt like I was on a wheel like a mouse going in circles chasing someting. NOW I feel like I am on the same wheel BUT it has stopped and I am just sitting there motionless. Not a great feeling to say the least.
john
Hi John,
Although you are not feeling like you are getting anywhere, some of the things you have said in your last couple of posts indicate to me that you have made some real progress – perhaps your wife is not changing, but you are – and, perhaps unconsciously, she may be experiencing some anxiety about that to the point where she is trying to be more and more controlling of you. Things do really get worse before they get better.
Have you listened to the latest Globaltalkradio show “You Might Be A Narcissist If” where Kim and Steve interview Lisa Charlebois? Lisa is a psychotherapist who has also worked on her own self-confessed narcissistic traits. I also had a chuckle when Lisa spoke of many health professionals also needing to face their own narcissistic traits first in order to give their clients the best service and advice possible. I also read the radio show transcript and have copied and pasted here several important points Lisa Charlebois makes that may help you come more to terms with why your wife may be behaving the way she does. Lisa says:
“. . . . but the thing with narcissism is basically it’s a defense against shame, so the narcissist in his or her own mind feels like they are not allowed to make mistakes, they are not allowed to be human. That either the parents idealized them as a child and overly spoiled them, and then the kid kind of feels this expectation to overly please the parents and they kind of get bigger than life in their own head. More often than not, that is not what causes narcissism. What causes it is a child’s needs being fairly neglected and the child doesn’t receive enough eye contact—doesn’t feel seen, doesn’t feel known. So most of narcissism is really excessive fears of feeling criticized and just an excessive attempt to cover up shame, mistakes around being human so they tend to blame, project and twist conversations around. But the narcissistic struggle—they don’t enjoy violating somebody else’s human rights. They do tend to lack empathy sometimes out of their own panic of, you know, say like one I really struggled with it a lot—and I can still do this at times—if my husband is confronting me on something, if my narcissistic injuries get ignited, then I start to kind of panic inside, and in my panic I can easily want to twist it around and go, “Well, what about when you did this…” and that kind of stuff. So my lack of empathy comes truly more out of fear—even if it’s an unconscious fear—and then you kind of turn the tables on that person.”
And later on Lisa says . . .
“Narcissism is actually a pretty common struggle. It really, really, really is a common struggle. And the thing about narcissism is that narcissists struggle the most if people disagree with them or contradict them or make them feel threatened . . . .”.
Later again Lisa went on to say:
“What I always tell spouses is that people come in and they always feel so powerless and I say actually you are in the most powerful position in this person’s life, and they are actually highly threatened by you. And actually if you can start to understand that and you can treat them more like reign in your own sense of power because when people feel powerless they start to yell more, they start to shame more, they start to get louder, which makes the narcissist feel that much more threatened, and then they get more defended. But when I tell the non-narcissistic spouse that the more they can speak gently and kindly and really try to convey I am not trying to hurt you, I am actually trying to help our relationship. I just want things to go better, I want things to go smoother. I want us to grow—you don’t always say closer first, because there are a lot of deep fears where human attachment was a very scary thing to a narcissistically injured person a lot of times, so sometimes the words closeness can even be too much. But even just to say I want us to be able to decrease our conflicts so we can just go on with our days. We can say we are sorry to each other because we are both going to make mistakes and we will go on with our days and things will get better, but to really break a lot of eye contact and know that any kind of shaming or finger pointing evokes and escalates an argument. Basically narcissistic people are very easy to throw into a fight or flight state and then, of course, when they come back and devalue you and make you feel like you are as low as a worm, then it evokes your fight or flight and all the sudden you want to crush the life out of that—you know it’s like that’s where the violence comes up because people just keep going tit for tat, tit for tat. I really train people—even if I am just dealing with one of the partners—to just kind of deescalate it and how to even make statements like honey, I am going to take a step back here because you are 6 feet tall and I’m 5’3” and I am starting to feel scared in my gut because you are close to me. I am just going to take a step back so I can hear you more. When the person is still feeling heard. You know it’s hard. We can all trigger each other’s abandonment, so we can go, “I’m not listening to you right now if you are going to talk to me like that.” You know, the other person is likely to chase you. You know, my husband and I had to work out all these boundary things when we first got married. It’s like no, no, no, when somebody sets a boundary you are not supposed to chase them down the hall and yell at them, you know? Let’s redo this and redo this. So we kind of had to learn how to say I’m too angry now, or I’m not hearing you because of the tone of your voice or you are getting too sarcastic. If you continue your sarcasm then we are going to have to stop the conversation and continue it when we both calm down. And it’s just good to say the words like when we both calm down—not when you calm down—because anything that evokes you, you, you, it just kind of escalates things. But if you do try to convey I’m trying to make this better, but us yelling at each other or if we are talking really escalated it’s not going to work. But it’s good to really confront like the tone of your voice is getting really devaluing. One more comment like that and we are going to have to stop talking. And then you do have to a lot of times follow through on the hey, we can continue this conversation in like 20 minutes, but we need to both calm down now. And then just really, really you have to set up something when you are calmer. No one has to leave the house, no one has to drive down the street, and no one has to go anywhere. You can just go to separate parts of the house. Usually people don’t feel so abandoned and get so nutty—-you know, a lot of times nutty things happen in relationships because core abandonment wounds get triggered. You know, somebody is driving down the street and I tell people like you can just go into the back yard and make it clear to your spouse I’m just going to go for a walk around the block. You know, it makes people nervous when somebody gets car keys it makes the other person panic—are they going to go crash the car, are they too upset to drive….”
Your wife sounds similar to my husband in being able to turn things around extremely quickly to the point where I have often felt powerless in our relationship. I got so much out of listening to this radio show in its entire context and reading the transcript – and since doing that, I have made a conscious effort not to contradict or confront my husband in any way, because I can see now how he may perceive this as a threat, or that it may trigger his narcissistic injury (curiously he has been saying for a long time that his guts squirms every time he is confronted or contradicted – this must be the panic Lisa talks about – I have become very conscious of him being an anxious person in the past, and this coupled with panic must be unbearable at times for him – even though he appears to be in control when being controlling – he is most likely to be in a state of anxiety and panic instead, and the controlling, swearing, put-downs, name-calling etc are his weapons of defence.
For the past two days and nights I have consciously let go of any tension I was feeling, allowed my face muscles to relax and to have a contented look about me – this tension was not all about my husband – I have a high stress job as well – and so does my husband. The effect of this was that my husband who is constantly tuning into my mood and body language, what I am saying and how I am saying it – even started to relax and look contented after a while too. But from past experience I know that if I changed from my contented and relaxed disposition to one of stress or anxiety, or confronted him with anything that was bothering me, or contradicted him in any way, then he would instantly mirror my mood, or he would fire up and go into his defensive mode of swearing, bullying, put-downs, name calling, and twisting things around or diverting the conversation to irrelevant things or past grievances, etc. Things can easily escalate from there when they get all turned around. So there really is no point in confronting him or contradicting him in the first place until I learn how to approach him from a different angle, such as Lisa’s husband did with her or how Lisa suggests above.
So just some words of encouragement to you John, your description of being like a mouse sitting motionless in a wheel that has stopped turning round and round would probably describe how I felt when I came to the realisation many years ago that I truly was powerless over my husband, that I could not change him – only he could do that himself. But in realising that powerlessness, I also realised that (even though my husband is extremely controlling) I actually had unlimited power over myself – that I had a right to be myself and to follow my own dreams and goals – and I have been doing exactly that since that day of reckoning, sometimes in baby steps, sometimes in leaps and bounds. It does take courage though to stay cool and to be true to yourself when confronted with aggression or negativity, but it sounds like you are having some success at that, even if you are not having success at the moment when confronting your wife.
“Our biggest challenges are the lessons we most need to learn.”
CD, Australia.
today I was told that the realtionship is over…she is taking her have of the money in the bank…taking her own vacation..and leaving me. She is not spending for a divorce…if I want one I can spend my own money. She is done with my abusive ways and the thought of continuing this is not in her picture.
She turned over the bills and checkbook…sleeps on the couch because the thought of sleeping in the same bed sickens her. Whe supposedely spoke with “someone” yesterday and they said my behavior was abusive and controling and that there was trouble in our relationship. MY actions have been to NOT get caught in conflicts…do not respond to all the statements about doing nothing right…being lazy…not caring or listening…or doing things the right way. I try not to judge her and complain about the way things are done by her or the way I am treated but this comes across as abuse. I have wanted to find a common ground but the time has never been there.
I was an abusive…controlling s.o.b. and she will not tollerate any more of this in her life. To this I said she is an N person and the response was its not true…she is not obsessed with the way she looks.
I know it is said not to confront with the N issue however today I wanted to. I was told that just because she does everything right and has no faults she should be criticized????????? Bull…t to that she says.
I cannot even get any sort of admission that the way I feel has any merit or is the least bit important to her. She outright says she doesn’t give a crap about how i feel or want.
The fear and anger that has become our lives is to much.
I told her it I wanted to feel needed again and told some positive things and wanted to felt cared about and supported…her response to this was what about alll the things you do to me and have taken away from this relationship. I responded with some of the things I used do you took for granted and expected which made them a non-pleasure for me to do and gave no happiness. I said I wanted to feel wanted and needed which are two areas which are long time issues.
The converstion was all about what she is going to do…that she is now going to tell averyong what a bastard I am because she has been keeping it in for so long and her life is going on without me. Anything with an advantage to her is o.k…HER possessions…HER portion of the money…HER HER HER. Any issues are mine to deal with and solve.
I am at wits end and could not be more confused and scared and frightened. Thanks for reading…I could use some support abd guidance.
john
Hi John,
I really feel for you – it is extremely difficult when relationships are so strained – a lot of stuff and pent up feelings pour out uncontrollably from both sides – usually things are said and done in haste and anger. Try to remain calm, listen and acknowledge what she is saying – without judgement – even though you would like to be heard too. Your wife sounds too overwrought and angry to care about your side of things and feelings right now – and if she is narcissistic then she probably does not have much empathy for you (or other people) most of the time anyway.
She obviously doesn’t know much about narcissism judging from her response to you about it. But take it as slowly as you can – allow her the space she needs right now – she may even calm down and change her mind about leaving. God knows my husband has done that to me countless times – it was when I stopped chasing him he would try several times to get out the front door expecting me to stop him, but he would have to keep coming back hoping again and again that I would try to stop him from leaving. He stopped threatening to leave after a while because that emotional blackmail would not work on me anymore.
Even though it may not seem like it, your wife may be more afraid of losing you than you are of her. One of the things I find most difficult with my husband is that when he has a problem, he does not come out and talk about it with me, he bottles it up, sometimes by not talking to me at all, and then he explodes at a time when things are long forgotten for me – then I have the problem of trying to think back as to whether I really did what he was saying. I remember one thing that he accused me of – and I know it wasn’t true, but it was very hard to defend myself when challenged about it 6 months after the event! I consider myself approachable – but my husband suffers this same anxiety not just with me but with many people – it is about his fear of confrontation and losing control. Having said that he does use bullying tactics when he confronts people straight away anyway – so why not blow up sooner rather than later? instead of when things have built up out of proportion, and memories are not as sharp anymore?
Dr Phil always said “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”. Pick your battles, let go of trivial issues, and save yourself for the important ones.
Easy to say, much harder to do – stay as calm and courteous as you can while making eye contact – if your wife continues to blow up she will then be doing it by herself and eventually she may realise that she is the only one out of control by then. It is pretty hard to have a war when no-one will fight with you!
Follow Kim and Steve’s advice, and also Lisa’s as I provided in my previous posting to you.
I hope things calm down for you whatever the outcome.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
cd,
thanks for the note..I hear all of what you are saying and feel some of it.
I realize thru this site that I am on the side of co-dependent and need to some degree to be happy thru her sometimes…like her approval makes it right and o.k. The judgement of not approving turns to not listening and not caring what she feels and/or says…so it is turned around to a her issue quickly. IN trying to explain this I am now controlling the situation and we all know where that goes.
I also realize thru what you say and thru reading this site that I am focusing on her and her “faults” in place of looking more at my co-dependency and fixing myself.I realize that this issue can and does make her issues more severe and pulls more triggers in her which get to me in a heart beat.
It is said the only person you can change is yourself and with some calmer confrontations due to the way I approach them(or choose not to) I know things are smoother….BUT…if the time is spent more on my side and correcting some of my issue I will personally feel better and hopefully have fewer issues with her.
I am not taking the blame for all issues but realize I have a part in how she responds to me by my initial actions and statements. Its like getting drunk and then blaming her for getting mad…the solution in this case is not to have the first drink.
I am torn …on the fence as to the final outcome of the relationship and believe its one day or issue at a time.
To not be so needy and have some thing that is mine I have been going to open mikes and playing the drums for a year now…in the beginning I was did this on my own w/o hr knowledge. When she found the list of bars she assumed I was going for other reasons….when I finally told her why I was there she asked why I was associating with “those” type of people…they are just losers …I took offense to the statement and told her how can she judge this when she has never been to one????????
I took her one night to hear me play…I has stopped playing about 30 years ago…..and afterwords she said I sounds o.k. and that it really wasn’t her cup of tea. She hasn’t gone to another one and during fights throws in that I have my own life and do my on thing…can’t seem to win either way.
One day I mentioned how concerning the “loser” statement was and how would she like it if i made a similar statement about her…or her family…or a friend of hers. She responded by saying she wantd to retract the statement…which was nice but look how much I had to do to even have her see how cutting and demeaning her statements cna be and how easily they flow from her “superior” mouth.
We are not speaking at the moment and she has moved to the couch…we correspond by note…and so another day in the life…….
thanks for the note…keeping some faith
john
Hi HM,
This is Trisha and I am not doing so good. Again, we are broke up, I think he is off of his medication by the actions I have seen. He is blaming me for the break up, he kept shouting that “I blew it” I had three years to get married to him. For a while I felt so down and took the blame and then thanks to God I started to reflect on what stopped me in getting to the marriage part. He played a part too, but I don’t see him taking any responsibility for his role. He is still telling me that he loves me, but he did dump me and still is saying the words of love, he misses me and so on. I am so confused, I have cried those same size buckets you talked about HM. He seems to be without feelings for me, it is only about himself. I am going to stay dumped. He has done this for the three years we have been together and to be honest I am going to let him have his way, we are done. I am so lonely, I cannot tell you, I feel like I can crawl out of my skin over this. Unlike you I would welcome the chance to go out with someone, but only on a friend basis. I am not ready for anything else. That would just make me run. When I read your post I felt so comforted as we have seemed to share the same hurts that you had in your last union with your N. Why does he seem so confident and I am reduced to mush?? I feel ugly< and awful both outside and inside Is this normal? I feel I am losing it. Please talk to me, I need someone to cling too, how sad eh?
Trisha
Hi John,
Just wondering how things are nearly a week later – I did send you a reply to your last posting but I must have done something wrong because it hasn’t appeared here yet – perhaps I did not press “submit” properly??
Hopefully this most recent event has turned out to be just one more “storm” that you both have had to weather your way through – hopefully also to a better place.
I cannot imagine how I would cope with my situation if I had not done all the self-growth that I had in Al-Anon many years ago (and continue to do so). I am considering returning to Al-Anon – it’s members are people who are getting real and honest with themselves and their relationships, and they can truly understand and empathise with the damage that the rigors of alcoholism does to those who love them the most. I believe the behaviour associated with Alcoholism is Narcissism.
Al-Anon is not a forum where people go to wallow in self-pity and to get their angries out – although one might do that at first. Each member soon learns that it is a place where you come to recover, grow and become strong enough to deal with the negative behaviour associated with alcoholism, and very importantly also to work toward living your own life and achieving your own goals – all while continuing to live with your alcoholic if you choose to do so. These changed attitudes in the codependent can promote positive changed attitudes in the alcoholic (or narcissist).
It is so, so important to find your own sense-of-self as a priority – all your beliefs, strengths and weaknesses – and to love and accept yourself – both the good and not so good – BECAUSE you may find yourself at the mercy of a narcissistic rage at any time – and all the abuse, put-downs, and threats of abandonment, etc that go with it.
What I am saying here is that if your wife does not have any addictions whereby you could find support through a 12 Step Programme such as Al-Anon, Gam-Anon, Nar-Anon, etc), then I would strongly suggest that you seek personal counselling (from an accredited psychologist, psychotherapist, or NLP, etc, or obtain the audios by Sarah Chambers on The Love Safety Net website). It is vital to get support with respect to re-building your self-worth and to develop effective communication skills to help you deal with the narcissistic rages and negativity.
I completely understand that you find your wife completely unapproachable – and that you feel your only choice is to not say anything at all – and based on my own experience it is probably the best thing to do under some circumstances. However it is important to let your wife know that you are feeling overwhelmed and don’t know what to do or say on each occasion, that you need time to think about things or to calm down, and that you would like to talk to her later and when she is calm too. Stonewalling can easily be misconstrued as abuse – when really it is about someone being overwhelmed and unable to interact at that particular time.
Saying nothing at all is like waving a red rag to my extremely controlling husband – he has an intense need to know everything – and he either misunderstands or can be extremely skilled at twisting things and using anything I do or say against me. Sometimes it is game playing or seeking a narcissistic fix by creating a drama.
I believe my husband’s fright or flight response being so highly charged all the time indicates how low he feels about himself and his world and the unbearable loneliness and anxiety within him – his walls of defence are ready to go up in a nano-second (by defence or attack) against any perceived or real threat.
My husband is not drunk all the time – which is a popular misconception by many regarding their image of an alcoholic. He does however drink to excess on most days, and goes to great lengths to conceal how much he is drinking. Regardless of whether he is sober or under the influence – his negativity and anti-social behaviour is never far from the surface – and it is easily provoked, even if inadvertently.
One of my biggest mistakes is when my husband is being unreasonably or irrationally negative – SOMETIMES I try to show him that there may be another perspective – a positive perspective. After reading Lisa Charlebois book “You May Be a Narcissist If” I can now see how the narcissistic side of my husband would perceive what I was saying as a contradiction or a threat – and that inadvertently I could be triggering his narcissistic rages by doing that.
Until I learn to communicate as effectively, kindly and gently, as I should with everyone anyway, I will avoid trying to make him see a more positive side to life to reduce the chances of contradicting him and creating a perceived threat to him. This should stop his constant lament “I am always wrong!”
The way I see it my husband is very strongly opinionated and overbearing – he believes he is always right, and he is very controlling. It is OK for each of us to have an opinion – that is what makes each of us individual and unique – but when someone completely shuts out or discounts the opinions of others – then the enriching Life Virtue of Humility is missing.
Marriage guidance counselling was good for us in some respects, but as soon as the counsellor tried to address my husband’s anger issues – my husband took off in a rage – it obviously is too painful for him to discuss at this stage. We have not seen the counsellor since (unfortunately) and now my husband has not got a kind word to say about counsellors and refuses to see anyone else now.
I do however believe that working on myself is of paramount importance – because whether we stay together or part ways – I will always be me – and I want to be as strong, understanding, compassionate, and empathetic as I can be. I want to be someone who is serene and unmoved by the lashing out of others who may be suffering more than me, and to share with them what I have been privileged to receive from those who have walked a similar path before me.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
cd
thanks for the comments and support…always helpful and positive.
The checkbook issue was brought back to the table and she wanted to take it back and continue doing the bills. I said NO…you gave this up and now I will take care of things…I am not just giving it back to you…I am not a yo-yo.
She said she was trying to get things back in order and that the check book was part of that…I said I was going to take care of this now and was that is the way it will be. I would expect an admission of fault and some statement to correct these actions before I consider changing back. At the least I am a human being and deserve the same degree of respect as I receive in criticism.
I made an appointment for my annual physical (she suggested it) and was TOLD she was going with me…I said I wanted to go by myself and was told she had contacted the PCP and was told that it was o.k. for her to speak with the doctor so she would have a heads up as to what to look for(after all who would know better than her living with me?).
After we went in I discussed my side of the issues and had a physical…after which my wife came in and was told what the suggestions of the doctor were and the appointments to make. When I got home that night I was asked if I was scared and replied NO…whatever happens(if anything) I will handle and go from there.This is all based on her premise that something is wrong with ME and the answer lies with fixing ME.Another shove the guilt to the other person and do not take any of the responsibility herself. All strenghtened with the statement “there is something wrong with you”.
I asked if she had discussed this with her “friend” during the day and she said yes. I asked why she would do this w/o asking me if it was o.k. seeing its my health and our situation.She responded that she has the right to talk to anyone about anything at anytime and not to “ell” her she can’t. Again something gets twisted to have a conflict instead of listening to my feelings.
I finally said you do what you want and I’ll be free to discuss anything about you with anyone choose. Whats good for the goose…..
She was very concerned and projected in her mind a horrible picture of the future to bring up the checkbook again and say she would take it over …and again I responded in the same manner. She yelled that I was not taking this seriously enough and my response was I a fine with me and the feeling you are expression are YOURS…and you need to deal with them.I am not judging
them or saying anything about them…they are yours. This didn’t sit well with her and she walked out of the room.
We don’t speak much and when we do it is very short and usually tense.
I was asked what I wanted out of this and replied some peace and quiet.
I find no relief in talking because all is taken and twisted as something that I said was something against her and the rest of the conversation is worked around clarifying this. Most conversations end in an argument and then silence with the comment …why am I so nasty?
Again its all me and an its tiring and stressful to say the least……
however I try and stay calm and collected and aware of the road map to HELL…with all its warnings and traps. I don’t win any battles BUT I try not to lose any wars. I may be bloody but I’m not dead and the wounds will heal…one way or the other.
I am concerned that the discussions are with someone else and therefor the suggestions are from someone who only knows what I do and nothing about what I go thru and my side.She asked if I wanted to go thru thru the medical stuff myself OR AS ATEAM(?). I couldn’t figure out what she meant in this situation…and didn’t ask. I believe she does care somewhat for me but think that by going with my she will find out the missing link to me and stick the whole miserable situation on my plate and show no sincere compassion for anything that might be wrong with me mentally of physically…I will only here that once again I did not listen to her and that the problem with us is ME…b..ls..t.
I will keep you posted as to the turns and craters which are found along the way….thanks you the help and support.
john
Hi John,
Bravo! Well done for holding your ground steadily and respectfully. I suspected that your wife might have a re-think about separation – and that she is perhaps more afraid of losing you than you are of losing her – this will become more accentuated as you grow stronger to deal with the bull-dust, and until she learns to feel safe with vulnerability.
I found it difficult also when my husband was talking about me for about 2 years to friends (and one female friend in particular) before I found out what he was saying behind my back – including scapegoating me, etc. I was angry and felt betrayed – there were many things spread around the whole town that were very personal for me that I had discussed in trust with my husband, and there were also private matters between us that I felt should have remained private. I was also angry that he didn’t talk to me about what was troubling him regarding our marriage although I had asked him repeatedly to talk to me – I was left to assume that it was all intense grief over losing his mother!
I still cannot reconcile that betrayal of trust, and our MGC said that he thought it OK to be able to talk to friends about things, I said yes – but there is a boundary for me – that I believe intimate details about a person or your relationship should only be discussed between yourselves or with a professional who is bound by confidentiality and is qualified to give advice in an unbiased manner.
I also said that none of the people my husband had been talking to – all of whom were mutual friends – came and asked me my side of the story so I don’t see how they could be unbiased let alone give the most constructive advice since they were not trained to be marriage guidance counsellors – and the one who had the most to say had the most trouble happening in her marriage too!
The MGC respected my viewpoint and asked my husband to consider my perspective on the matter too – it didn’t necessarily mean that he had to abide by it, but if he didn’t then I made it clear that I would not continue to share my innermost thoughts and feelings with him ever again, including my personal health details, especially in the light that he wanted to divorce me (and that was 18 months ago).
My husband can be a gossip and has demonstrated that he cannot be trusted with confidences or secrets about others many times in the past – I don’t know why I was so stupid that I didn’t realise I couldn’t entrust him with my personal and private stuff either. Now (in his typical martyr-like way) he says he doesn’t talk at all with anyone – fullstop! This could be his way of saying – hey you can trust me now because I don’t talk to anyone anymore, but by the tone of his voice and his body language I believe there is a unspoken message there that because I disapprove of him talking about EVERYTHING about me, then he will not talk at all – and that is my fault!
To me it is so childish and immature – I have only put a boundary on intimate details about me or our marriage – but maybe he doesn’t know where to draw the line on what is intimate and what is not because he has been so used to having a free reign on all matters. I know that if I shared any of his confidential stuff with others then there would be hell to pay!
You might like to reconsider your stance on how much involvement your wife has in your health management – if your health issues are something you can manage yourself, then there is probably no need for her to be privileged with that level of intimacy at this stage if she is not prepared to respect your request for privacy. It is best however to respect her privacy – to set a good example and to stick by your standards. I can completely understand that the temptation is to do the same back to her to try and make her appreciate your feelings and viewpoint, but if your core belief is to respect your partner’s privacy then you must self-respectfully follow your belief by establishing and protecting that boundary.
Keep going with being firm but gentle and with your your well-being and self-respect as your priority – I feel your wife may be trying to “do the right thing” by you and your marriage but unfortunately she is reaching for help perhaps from well-meaning friends who may not be sufficiently qualified or unbiased to offer advice. And yes – no-one likes to admit that any fault lies with them in a relationship breakdown – and we all try to fix our partners or “external worlds” first to find happiness, but there are many people now including you and me – especially through this forum – that have come to the wonderful and empowering realisation that our happiness is built from the inside out (and not the outside in). Our loved ones may have not yet come to that realisation and are still behaving in the self-defeating and emotionally immature ways that cause relationship dysfunction or break-down.
We cannot change another person, but we can establish healthy boundaries for ourselves through our Personal Bill of Rights, and to respectfully protect those boundaries by limiting abuse, etc as outlined in Kim & Steve’s Back From The Looking Glass and workbooks. Keep up the good work!
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
cd
Thanks for the last note and words of suuport…life goes on.
The other night I came home a couple hours after work and was asked where I had been. I explained I had gone to get something to eat and with that a conversation was started regarding where I want htis relationship to go.
I was told that if I wanted a divorce I should be MAN enough to say so(another dig) and that we would go our seperate ways. My repomse was when and if I wan a divorce the words will come from my mouth…not yours. I ma copable of speaking for myself and do not need and will not accpet her talking for me or putting words in my mouth to support her thoughts and opinions. She said that I was trying to wear her down and she would not stand for this behavior. I think she got these words from her “friend”…its the first time she has used these terms. Funny what you can pick out when you listen to people…its not always what they say but what they DON’T say. I said I had things to do that evening and was told she was not finished talking…I said please finish. This wwent on for an hour with some swearing and name calling and putdowns including one that said I son’ so anything right…I do everything half-assed throughout my life
and do I know how hard it is to live with someone like that???????
She said I had balls to fault her for doing everything the right way and that I was jealous of this and thats what I’m punishing her for. It just doesn’t seem to stop…it’s always raining judgements.
When things are quiet the conversations are usually about things that need to get done around the house…nothing about eachother or the events of the day.
Your point about guarding my personal medical situation is a good one with the reasons you brought up. I made two appointments and when I got hame was asked about them. I said it would take some time to get the results and she said SHE sisn’t want to wait that long and was I comfortable with waiting…I said these are my tests and I will handle them. She said she wants to know whats wrong with me as sooon as possible as it has to do with hwo it will effect her…like that is the most important issue here. I give up.
Thanks for the support agian…talk with you soon.
Everyone must remember that it is only you who can change and want to change. The longer we try and change the other person the less time we have left for ourselves.
peace
john
cd
Just a quick note to say that when i told my wife she was an N person..her responce was I better look up the word because Webster defines N as some one with self-love…thsi I was told is not the case with her.
I mentioned that there are many more definitions for the word and she chooses to accept just this one. Again her choice and with that the anger that I had the nerve to suggest that to her. Nothing seems to stick to her and eveerything is turned around to me and something that she doesn’t like in me.
more later
stay well everybody
john
In a recent discussion with my wife I was asked why I am so nasty and cruel to her…my response was that I wasn’t and that I am trying to keep things calm and not to say or do anything that would offend her and cause her to blame me for a fight.
I have gone to the doctor for my checkup and all is well…we have schedules some tests for memory and cognitive issues which wdill be next month. My wife has a great fear that something is wrong with me and that she will be the one to take care of me in some capacity(her mother took care of her father til his death…dementia and other related issues)I have been told many times that I don’t know if I’m coming or going and that don’t focus on things and I don’t do anything right…everything wrong. I was told today at the end of a fight that if something is wrong with me that she will put me in a nursing home because SHE is going to put up with “this” from me anymore. Now there is some real concern for me??????
I find it hard to fathom anyone having the stones to throw all this in my face w/o any patience or understanding for the other person and what THEY are going thru. I cannot say how I feel w/o it getting back to her…I can’t explain my actions w/o it getting turned on its face and meaning something else to which she complains. I am at wits end…I amtold I going to get exactly what I want and I won’t like it. I feel all of these statements are to get a reaction from me so she is back in control and we are addressing her issues. I do not respond(generally) to which I am told that I do not care about her at all and my actions show it. If I am controlling myself and NOT telling her she is incorredt with her feeleings.. how am I still on the bad side of the tracks?If I stay away to avoid confrontation I am ignoring…if I answer the ????? I didi not say it right or I really meant someting else and am not man enogh to just come out and say it…if I argee with her and apologize then the point is I shouldn”t have done it in the first place because now I have ruined her day.
In all of this there seems to be no place for my feelings and needs and wants. I can only breath outside the house and realize that as much as it does some good it is NOT my life and there is a big whole to fill for me to be happy
I would just like to be heard and listened to and have a few things change to my way which would be a tremendous boost to my feelings and well being.
Thanks
john
Dear Kim,
My husband and I have been married for 22 years and the last ten have been very challenging. That was when he started drinking for the first time since we had been married. I was at a point in our relationship where I didn’t know what to do. When I decided to search out narcisstic personality disorders, and found your site.
I’ve been studying your material for a few months now. I have had to read into the looking glass several times in order for it to sink in. I have MS so it’s more challenging. I have done a little on the worksheets. But I must say that just taking a few of your suggestions to start with and taking baby steps has improved my relationship with my husband. The biggest thing I have stopped doing is discussing our relationship with him. That was a bad constant habit I had which came out of fear. I see my codependance in this relationship and all other relationships I have had in the past. I also have read the article on are you an overly sensitive man. I’m not sure at this point if my husband is narcissistic or overly sensitive. Either way your material is helping. My husband has not been physically abusive just emotionally, which he doesn’t acknowlege. I don’t share anything about your materials with him at this point and I think it will be quite a long time before that would even be possible. In the meantime, learning about limiting abuse, emotional intelligence and loving instead of punishment all of which are helping me to personally grow up. I’m learning how to be more incharge of myself, to take care of myself emotionally and self soothe. It’s amazing to me that just making a few small changes in myself has made a difference in the peace in my household. I haven’t gotten to the point of dealing directly with the sarcasm and subtle put downs my husband can throw out but I know that will come as I grow. I don’t yet know how to put those steps into action but I know that will come.
I wanted to let you know how valuable your information has been for me and that there is progress no matter how slowly it comes. Thank you, I’m sure there are many of us out here who need it! Keep up the great work! : = )
I also listen to Joyce Meyer broadcast in conjunction with you. Your material puts more of the how to into her teachings as well.
Your materials are saving my sanity!
Thank you so much
Sincerely,
Sasha
Hi John,
Do you have Kim & Steve’s “Back From The Looking Glass” and workbooks? It is essential for you to get as much healthy support and guidance as you can to help you through this challenging time and to take charge of yourself and YOUR LIFE – which is your personal right.
You have realised that the only person you can change is yourself – and you are to be praised for having already taken some positive steps in that direction! It is great news about your health and tests so far . . . and it is not uncommon for people in our age group to have some loss of mental sharpness or memory lapses – however I believe it is important to let your doctor know that you have been suffering long term severe stress regarding your marriage. If your doctor read some of your posts here maybe he would understand the gravity of your situation better, and the courage and strength you are demonstrating in trying to turn things around.
Any life changing decision is best made at a level of logical thought and with careful consideration of the facts – and should not be based on emotional impulse. Doctor’s are trained to be impartial and your doctor might exercise caution where your wife is concerned if he knew that her thoughts for your future at the moment are either divorce or a nursing home! I believe and hope that the most you are afflicted with is long term stress – which can affect your mental health and memory – but that doesn’t necessarily make you ready for a nursing home! In my own experience I have found that my mental sharpness is reduced or I have memory lapses when my mind becomes consumed by the problems and the affects of living with someone who is self-centred and emotionally abusive. My mental alertness and memory return as my stress level alleviates (I am in a high stress job too!).
Kim has mentioned several times throughout her material to make looking after yourself a priority and she has suggested to take the nutritional supplements Omega 3 (brain health & wellbeing), Ginkgo Brahmi (for memory), and Evening Primrose Oil, etc. I also take a good multivitamin suitable for the over 50’s (especially with the B-Group vitamins) and St John’s Wort for relief from anxiety, etc. Regular nutritious meals, quality sleep and exercise, maintaining outside interests and healthy friendships, relaxation/ meditation and self-soothing can all help you maintain or improve your health and well-being and to protect you somewhat against the ravages of long term stress.
I try to do all of the above each day, but I find that sometimes the regime goes by the wayside when my husband is behaving most offensively – and that is the very time I need the regime the most! I do eventually realise how he has yet again become “the centre of attention” in my life and from that realisation I start thinking about where my mental priorities should be in the present moment. Once I have reached that point I have overcome the “emotional” side of the problem, which allows me then to take a detached look at the dynamics of the situation and what choices or actions I need to make for my own health & well-being.
It is not “nasty or cruel” to take charge of your life by being responsible for your own well-being, health and happiness. It is not “nasty or cruel” to disengage from verbally or emotionally abusive conversations as soon as you sense that things are not going in a good direction – but it is important to make a clear statement when you stop a conversation (or put it on hold) to say something like:
“I am going to disengage from this conversation right now because we have been down this road before and I don’t want to go there again.” or
“I am going to disengage from this conversation right now because I want us to be able to discuss the issue(s) in a mutually respectful manner when we both have calmed down.”
“I hear what you are saying and I appreciate your concern/viewpoint, but right now I must take time-out to think about each of our perspectives on this, and what is best for me/us/each other.”
My husband has suffered from (self-confessed) anxiety for as long as he can remember – and he demonstrates real outward signs of anxiety and is constantly on guard against “personal attacks from others” whether or not they are perceived or real attacks. If I were to change one word in one of my suggestions above…
“….in a mutually respectful manner when YOU have calmed down.”
….then I would be unsuccessful in disengaging from the conversation because I would be saying that my husband is the only one responsible (or to BLAME) for the conversation getting out of control and he would hear this and the tirade would escalate rather than cease.
The truth is that I would like to discuss things in a calm and mutually respectful manner, and I would like him to do the same. I can feel my heckles rise (my fright or flight response) as soon as I am yelled at, sworn at, put-down or bullied in any way. My husband has got away with this all his life and now someone (me) is finally standing up to his tantrums – and he is not going to give up his tools of control and manipulation easily – and until he learns that he can get what he wants and to feel safe without being offensive and/or defensive.
The very second any anti-social behaviour or bad manners starts is the very second it must be stopped. Easy to say, much harder to do – but highly essential to demonstrate that you are commanding a higher level of respect by not accepting unacceptable behaviour. When my husband challenges me then about my behaviour (trying to dodge his own accountability) I respond that I realise I am not perfect and never will be just like every other human being on this planet, however I am prepared to work on my shortcomings if and when I become aware of them. I also add that I am hoping that things will get better between us from now on – and it has sometimes – my hope is that one day I will be able to say “most times” – however I will not do this forever – life is too short to be half-lived, amazingly though, even though their has been both a lot of happiness and pain in my marriage, I would walk away the real benefactor of what I have learned from Al-Anon, Kim, Steve and many other good people as a result of seeking help for my husband’s unfortunate suffering.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Help! What is my next step? I have been following your advice for a several months in a very complicated reconciliation after a sexual crime. So much is working fantastically—classic reactions, classic results! HOWEVER, he silently walked up behind me and caught me reading about narcissism. He asked me if I thought he was a narcissist. His counselors told me he was, so I said yes. This, of course, pissed him off without further curiosity of any kind. No, “Why?” No, “What does that mean?”, etc…He is a pilot and was going to work, so I know this will be THE TOPIC when he returns. I need some wisdom.
Hi Jeterbug,
One thing I strongly believe in is that “things happen when they are meant to” even though we may be caught unprepared or by surprise. It seems you have some time up your sleeve to prepare yourself while he is away at work?? If so, have you purchased Kim & Steve’s recent audio & workbook release called “Reconnect” – this might be something you can both listen to and let it do the talking for you at first? It is a really beautiful, honest and captivating “tell it like it was and is” designed to help couples wanting to reconnect and improve their relationships. This audio does not mention the word “Narcissist” at all which is good because people understandably tend to shut down or become defensive and/or offensive if they suspect they are being blamed or labelled by their partner for their dysfunctional relationship. This audio is ideal because the focus is not just on one partner in the relationship – it is about how each partner must take responsibility for what they bring to the relationship.
Another excellent publication is Lisa Charlebois’ book “You Might Be A Narcissist If”? I have downloaded and printed Lisa’s book and plan to leave it lying around for my husband to read after I have played Kim & Steve’s “Reconnect” audio to him.
I have kept what I have been studying private from my husband until now – but in spite of my husband getting angry or martyrlike whenever he is confronted, he often subtly reveals that he is searching for answers. I believe deep down he knows that he is responsible for his difficulties at some level, but it is so much easier and it has become a habit for him to instantly blame everyone and everything else instead – in other words his false-pride gets in the way of him finding true happiness and true success in life – with or without me in it.
My take is that we all have healthy and unhealthy levels of narcissism within us, and that is the platform I am going to operate from when finally I reveal to my husband what I have been studying for the past 18 months – that each of us needs to work on ourselves to give our best to our relationship. It took me a long time to reveal to my husband many years ago that I was going to Al-Anon because I feared that he would rage at me, but it was quite humorous when I finally did – my husband was so relieved to find out that Al-Anon was the reason I was getting happy and a backbone, and not that I had another bloke as he had silently suspected for a long time (I had so much trouble with one why would I want two?? LOL).
My husband has been very testing since I have been applying the principles of Kim and Steve’s program in addition to what I learned in Al-Anon. I feel it only fair to him and to myself now to reveal what I am up to – although I have told him that I have been seeking help from reputable websites and professionals to improve my relationship skills for the benefit of our marriage, so I haven’t been totally covert.
Another suggestion is to follow “Dear Theresa” on Kim’s other website kimcoopersblog.blogspot.com
Theresa’s story is a powerful one unfolding almost daily before our very eyes – her courage, strength and wisdom are truly inspiring as is Kim’s kind and very real support for her. You might be able to adopt some of Theresa’s experience to apply to your own situation.
“A life lived in fear is half-lived, have courage and lead the way by living your life well and to the full!”
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
John,
Catching up with the past weeks postings … so this may have been said already by CD and others.
About 18 months ago I was struggling with feeling like I needed to walk out of my relationship, despite having spent many years really trying to make it work and tolerating what was unfair. While there are still days when that feeling returns, they are much fewer and pass more quickly. I have found that walking out and taking care of myself for a short time … (taking the toddler, and tolerating feeling guilty about leaving the older 2 boys) … the act of doing this seems to shift the dynamics when I return. I need to disengage before I start getting defensive and saying or doing things that do not show me as in control. It doesn’t always work, and I certainly don’t always disengage soon enough, but over time it has sent a message that I am changing.
I have also had to accept that my husband is never going to be able to say what I need (ie emotionally supportive content) to hear in the moment. This is where the self soothing comes in, as hard as it is because in the moment I really want some reassurance from him. I recognize that my getting frustrated and angry will just backfire.
In response to feeling like your wife doesn’t care about what you want or need. In the moment it does seem that way, and certainly if you respond back to her while in that mindset you will get told things that reinforce your feeling. In calmer times can you find examples that show she does care (even if not as attentively as you would wish)? Keep those moments readily accessible … I try and remember them when I disengage to self soothe. I try and see the things my husband does to show his support (from his perspective) – it doesn’t work to try and get him to say he cares or show he cares when I want or need him to do so.
It also doesn’t work to try and get my husband to understand my perspective in the moment. He seems to take my efforts to do so as if I was contradicting him or threatening him. Remember that if your spouse is pushing at you, soething is going on for her that she is doing so – rememebr that in that moment she is more insecure and defensive or vulnerable than you. (Even though when you are being hurt by her cutting remarks this seems really unfair)
Sometimes my husband can hear my perspective, but usually not. Sometimes I write my perspective out just for me, occasionally I send it to him in an email … I’m still not sure if that is helpful, but it does help me.
Regarding being absent minded, forgetful, disorganized etc. … on top of everything you are checking out, and the reality that stressful circumstances can compound these issues … make sure you are getting enough (continuous) sleep, that you are hydrating throughout the day, and that you are eating small well balanced meals throughout the day (not fast sugars or simple carbs). Sleep deprivation, fluctuating blood sugar levels and chronic mild dehydration can compound the forgetful fogginess.
hi, i have just begun to suspect my partner of 18 months has at least narcissistic tendancies. he was the man of my dreams for the first 5 months begging me to marry him him, telling me he wanted nothing else than to look after me and my family. the last year has been a rollercoaster with me wondering where these feelings have gone, why is he with me if they have, could he be that evil that he stays because i support him while he spends his money on triva. he drinks and gets verbally abusive, mostly ignores me when were out with his friends, then when were home an argument can start from nothing and he rants and rages, throws things at me, threatens to leave me (i no longer ask him to stay and he calms down when he comes back and acts like nothing happened) last nightHe went into rages because i hadnt cooked the dinner on time because i was visitng my neighbour. The thing i really cant cope with is his need to have young female friends behind my back (but he gets on really well with young people in general). He is 49 but thinks nothing of taking a barmaids number and starting to text. When I find out I get a rage and threats to leave because ‘he cant have female friends?’ He has several female friends and constantly text, been though stages of taking his phone (he has 2) into the toilet or bathroom. I have seem some of the texts where he seems to try and alianate one particular girl from me even though I have tried to become friends with her. On my birthday he texted her that he had given me a lovely chair but that I hadnt plugged in yet. this gives these girls the impression that he dosnt care for me and that i am a needy person because i go out with him all the time. the fact is he needs me more than i need him because he is always broke. he lives under my roof, eats my food, wears the clothes i wash for him, drives around in the car i pay for and threatens to leave when i said i wanted 200 pounds per month from next month. i am happy for him to do that ! I cannot cope with the secrecy and the fact i believe he is up to illegal things as well as his quest for seeming like he is the answer to all these girls emotional problems they are jealous of me in a way ! also he is beginning to realise that these friends of his only contact him when they need something or their boyfriend has dumped but will still drop everything to help a friend but i can honestly say he hasnt lifted a finger in my house in any way shape or form. he seems to like throwing his mess around and leaving the room a shambles and when i ask if he could not make such a mess in the 1st place i am told to get a life. im talking dirty ear buds on the side of the bed and cigarette ends on the bedside table sort of mess. i have read lots of the stuff on N and while some of it says leave – i cant – its my house. other people says its an illness and i could try and help him get better. before i buy the book i need to know which is the best one and if anyone out believes he actually has it. i can say his dream job is running a pub (his own little kingdom where he can be the magnanimous barman breaking all the rules no doubt – he did it before- all the punters his courtiers) he is never wrong never never. i never get to finish a sentance. i get shouted at and called all sorts of vile names even though i run around hand foot and finger for a quiet life, he lies and if he gets caught out starts shouting and being extremely defensive. he never touches me in a tactile way despite that being one of the reasons i fell in love with him, he says he never has and never will be tactile. he says hes never been interested in sex and he has proved that so i dont think he is ever physically unfaithful but it still hurts me that he can let these relationships flourish behind my back. his last girlfriend ran away because she said she felt like she was losing her mind. lol as i type he has texted to say he is sorry and dinner can be ready when its ready – no offer to help though – i am surprised i got an apology i dont usually – maybe because he feels i dont care any more because i dont cry or text him – who knows !
i am sorry that was so long winded but i also need to know before i can thoroughly investigate this what is the best way to deal with his tantrums. the way i see it if i ignore him he is not getting his NS and will go elswhere for it ? i believe i have made him worse by being the kind generous accomodating tolerant person i am btw no matter what sort of idiot he likes to say I am – i know im not !
Hi Sarie,
Your first purchase from Kim & Steve should be Back From The Looking Glass and workbooks. It sounds like you really have your hands full – your man sounds like he has the maturity of a highly rebellious and disrespectful teenager who has never been made to consistently comply with secure and healthy boundaries. Now as an adult he doesn’t think he is answerable to anyone even though he is behaving like an irresponsible child.
Well done for staying strong and not allowing his threats of leaving you upset you too much. Your story is quite typical of many people who write here – that when you first get together the future looks very loving, promising and secure – then over time the real deal exposes its unwelcome ugly head (Kim & Steve’s audio “Reconnect” explains this very well).
As you work through Kim and Steve’s “Back From The Looking Glass” and workbooks you will see that you do have much to do to bring the situation back into your control as much as possible – including limiting the abuse – whether or not you stay together or part ways.
I am not suggesting that you part ways, but if you are thinking of doing so then Kim has some good guidelines in her book above to do this in the safest and most effective way possible. The fact the home is yours makes it difficult to “leave” as you said, however if and when he does storm out or leave by you doing what Kim suggests (because you want to safely end the relationship) maybe you can pack his bags and leave them at the front door and urgently have the locks changed (by prearrangement with a tradesperson in the event of an emergency).
It is then a case of him having left you and you packing his bags and changing the locks after he has left – and not you packing his bags and TELLING him to leave – in other words he made the decision and not you and that will allow him to keep his ego intact by thinking he was in control all the time.
Under such circumstances – you must be clear on what you want for yourself and your future and to be committed to your decision. He may beg you or be angry with you and demand to be let back in, but if you do so you must be clear that it will be only be under your terms from then on. In either case you need to build a support network urgently.
It is not easy re-parenting an “adult child” and frequently there are setbacks, but there is a lot you can do to turn things around for yourself and to recover your self-worth and self-respect again – just doing that much can have a huge impact on your man.
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Trisha, CD and everyone!
I hope you are all well! I have just read a few of your posts and will reply soon.. got a very busy time at the moment and ahead but after the 20th, should have a bit more time to myself!
I have been thinking of you Trisha and hope you are okay sweetie! Take care!!!!
HM xx
Hi all,
Just talking here because I am in a rough patch, and am needing some feedback. Yes just a few days after I was just commenting on my strategies of how to handle it when what a spouse says or doesn’t say reflects that they don’t seem to care. I’ve been feeling weak for a while, and what I know to do is only partly working. Somedays like the last few I have felt the barrage of subtle criticisms and I start seriously considering that I can’t keep going with this. I push back about something where I disagree, and it becomes that I am the one who is so delusional and so messed up. I am the problem and that I will be teaching my kids harmful things. You know the routine, but he also knows how to push my buttons so that I end up questioning if I am totally viewing everything wrong. Then I want to give up, because I don’t think I can try any harder. He tells me I am the one standing in the middle of traffic, and have been fighting against him and the world for years. He will review the circumstances where I was wrong, or I made a mistake in judgement and that becomes evidence that I must be flawed. I’m tired of the pattern because I end up emotionally drained and exausted. Often I just want to walk away from the marriage, and from everything …because I am so tired of trying and being corrected. Sometimes I even wonder if it would be better for the boys to leave them, so they would not to have to live with the conflict and my emotional roller coasters. I have separation papers – just in a standard draft form. I erroneously have slipped up recently saying I can’t take this anymore and want to leave, or said that if I am disappointing him so much that he should leave. I know those are the wrong statements, but my mind goes there when I just feel so worn out.
I cry all the time because I do not want to keep being put down, and I do not want to leave them. I cry because there are so many things, people and supports in my extended world that are totally falling apart and I feel very alone and vulnerable. I need my husband to be supportive and his belief seems to be that he is being supportive (by telling me what I have done wrong) and I am fighting him. Literally sometimes I think I am just modifying his statement, or saying I didn’t see something that way, and he takes it as arguing. Is his view if I am not agreeing and just saying yes, yes, it is a conflict. Sometimes I do know I focus on the minor exception or detail and modify that, and I can see how that is contrary or negative, but it is not intended as an arguement. I’ve explained that, try and stop it, but my statment that it is not intentional is never really heard. (“If you keep doing something it must be intentional, don’t I understand responsibility and “negligence,” … even my 6 yo son understands the concept of negligence … or so I am told.”
I know there are a long list of situations where he thinks I fought against him over many issues. Most (but not all) I didn’t really disagree on the big picture, but we would get derailed into some little issue where I wish he could have just worked the verbal progression towards consensus, but instead it became hours of Socratic questioning. I wish I could go back and redo many of those. There are others where I was fighting over some issue that was important to me at the time, but looking back was not such a big deal, given what else I have learned to tolerate. Even understanding more, as I do now, I know I can’t just silence my thoughts and opinions all of the time. If I try to explain my thoughts (counter to his) my reasoning and arguementation skills are not as good and I usually end up in verbal and emotional knots – evidence that I must be the issue.
I wish I could just be happy and content. Nothing is so terrible. Sometimes I am, but when the jabs start I crash very very fast. When I am down and vulnerable the criticisms are harder to ignore or brush off. Personally and professionally I am down and vulnerable right now, and although I do not think it is conscious, he is saying I am on a downward spiral, that he warned me I would be here earlier (if I didn’t start seeing the world properly, if I didn’t stop being naieve), and other loaded remarks with the goal of shaking me up, but the effect of putting me down further.
I’ve more than rambled … I need to sort it out with some time.
Hi MR,
My heart goes out to you – I wish I could give you a warm and comforting hug with some reassuring words to remind you that you are not alone even if you feel that way. I am not surprised that you are completely exhausted and feeling defeated if you are enduring hours of intense and analytical Socratic questioning!
As a lawyer I would think your husband is highly trained and skilled to question and badger people the way he does in any given situation with the objective of winning at all costs – even if it is defeat by submission through the complete and utter exhaustion of his opponent – and if and when he chooses – it is open slather on you because the only person there to object or defend you against his onslaught is – you. Unfortunately I doubt you will ever find the supportive empathic man you would like your husband to be during those times (if my perspective on this has any merit) because his Socratic questioning prowess combined with Narcissism would make for a total lack of fair play in any conflict – there is no point in defending yourself because you will not win against his huge ego!
So what do you do with this? Firstly – don’t allow anyone including your husband to define who you are. You are entitled to your opinion and to live your own life safely and to the full. Ask yourself would you ever cross-examine your patients the way your husband cross-examines you? I would think not! Career wise you are a highly trained, credentialed professional – respected by your peers – and the fact your husband is taking every opportunity to discredit you and destroy your confidence in yourself academically, emotionally and spiritually is in my opinion – abuse. To discredit you and destroy your confidence in yourself as a mother – is abuse – and to denounce you to your children is abuse toward both you and your children. From what you have posted here you do love and properly care for your children – there is no doubt that you are a good and emotionally available mother – please don’t lose sight of that – and if you decide to leave or send your husband on his way – don’t believe for a moment that your children would be better off without you because that line of thinking is never true. Give up on your marriage if you feel it is what is best for you – but don’t leave your kids behind because you are feeling low as a result of the abusive opinions of your husband – you are much stronger than what you realise!
With respect to discrediting you and destroying your confidence in yourself as a wife and a person – this is also in my opinion – abuse. (I have often said to my husband over the last 18 months “You don’t have to find fault with me to not want to be with me.” When I first said it he looked at me quizzically and said he didn’t understand – I explained to him that he didn’t have to find fault or flaws in me to have reason enough to leave me – that if he didn’t love me or wanted to leave then I loved him enough to let him go – he was still puzzled!??)
Whether you stay in the marriage or leave – you have already recognised that there are cycles to this – things go fine for a while (and you might be getting close to him) and then the narcissistic bullying* jabs start until eventually you are triggered into reacting in a defensive mode – once he has you in that mode he has a hook in you – and you will never win because he must win at all costs – because of his ego and because he can. Choosing not to defend yourself is not submitting to your husband – he can never change the way you think (unless you LET him) – and he cannot know what you think unless you tell him – and in that way you maintain control over yourself. Actions speak louder than words.
Your best chance of preserving your dignity and grace (and the upper hand) is using your magic scissors and the diplomatic responses that Kim suggests:
“You’re not better than me.”
“Sometimes I do – sometimes I don’t.” (In response to the “You never ….! You always…..! etc)
We have been down this road before and I don’t want to go there again.
“Stop criticising me!”
(I would like to add “Stop cross-examining me!” (As soon as the Socratic questioning starts!)
I am sure you know many more of the above responses so I won’t relate all of them – all I know is Kim’s responses reinforce a boundary or draw a diplomatic line in the sand without being defensive – I have been clumsy at mastering the art of this and it has taken a long time for my fledgling wings to get stronger – and that they have only become stronger by recognising the fact that I am dealing with narcissism and must not defend or give credibility to any of the negative comments that are made by my husband toward me or others.
* See “The Bully” in Behary’s Disarming The Narcissist.
My husband believes his identity and success as a person is measured by what his career and financial success is – which is convenient because while he is putting all his energy into that he does not have to face his true self – the thing he fears doing the most – even though I can see both weaknesses and strengths – I believe he cannot handle the thought of having any weaknesses or shortcomings at all. (Reading Lisa Charlebois book “You Might Be A Narcissist If” has confirmed this belief to me.)
My husband’s narcissism was most out of control when he was contracting and socialising with the “rich and famous” – he became super tyrannical & arrogant, super fake and obnoxious! Thank God he has returned to “earth” somewhat!
One of the nicest most warm hearted people I ever met (and our town posthumously named a nature reserve after him in his honour) worked all his life on a garbage truck! He loved his job and loved and respected people. In my mind a good person is measured by how virtuous they are – how much they have of patience, understanding, humility, valour, compassion, empathy, and so on – and these qualities are elusive in the self-righteous, and a gift to those who seek them and embrace them.
MR, I do hope you stay in touch more often – this is not a battle you need fight on your own – you have many supportive and caring people here. Maybe time-out (with your kids) from the marriage is what would help you recharge your batteries and believe in yourself again – go have a holiday, relax and read books that are nothing to do with narcissism, go to the movies, play with your kids – they will remember it! You may even find some consultations (if possible) with Lisa Charlebois (specialises in Narcissism) will help you heal and clear your mind. Above all, reach out for support from people who can empathise with your situation – you are not alone and need understanding support.
Good Luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
MR
iN READING YOUR COMMENTS I CAN PUT MYSELF IN YOUR SHOES MANY TIMES. i KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE TO TRY AND DO THINGS IN A BETTER WAY ONLY TO BE TOLD THAT ITS STILL WRONG AND WHAT IS WRONG …CANT YOU DO ANYTHING RIGHT.
i FIND BY NOT RESPONDING TO THESE STATEMENTS IT PUTS THE OTHER PERSON IN A SITUATION WHERE THEY CANNOT SAY ANYHTING MORE BECAUSE YOU DID NOT RESPOND AND THEREFOR THE GAME HAS TAKEN A NEW COURSE…THEY HAVE TO CHASE YOU TO GET YOU TO RESPOND AND ANSWER THEM FOR THIS IS THE GAME…THEY PUT DOWN AND YOU DEFEND YOUR STAND…THEY CHALLENGE YOUR STAND AND SO ON AND SO ON…BACK AND FOURTH.
STOP ANSWERING EVERY COMMENT..LISTEN AND CHOOSE THE ONES YOU WANT TO ANSWER. WATCH THE CHANGE INTHE CONVERSATION AND IN THE OTHER PERSON…KEEP YOUR COOL AND REMAIN CALM..IT WILL AGGREVATE AND ANNOY THE OTHER PERSON AND THE COMMENTS WILL GET STONGER AND HARDER TO RESIST IN AN ATTEMP TO GET YOU BACK INTO THE GAME.
REMEMBER…BY NOT RESPONDING YOU ARE STAYING IN CONTROL OF YOURSELF AND NOT LETTING THE PUT DOWNS IN AND THEREFOR NOT LETTING THEM EFFECT YOU AND YOUR FEELINGS. STAND STRONG AND STAY IN CONTROL. IT WILL TAKE SOME EFFORT NOT TO RESOND BUT ONCE YOU GET THE HANG OF IT YOU WILL SEE A DIFFERENCE AND SO WILL THEY. YOU WILL BE IN CONTROL MORE THAN BEFORE AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.
HOPE THIS HELPS YOU
STAY STRONG
JOHN
I really need someone to talk to. I want to know why I keep letting myself into this terrible situation. My ex-husband and I are divorced, why we decided to get back together is beyond me. He is a liar and a cheater. He is with someone new right now. He is breaking up with me bcause he found someone who can understand him. I am okay with him breaking up with me for the fourth time. I just don’t want him to crawl back into my life. I want to leave and never come back. I know I am codependent and I am afraid of being by myself. I takle care of him totally when I am with him. He is mean to me and say terrible nasty things to me. He insults my intelligence. My feelings are constantly her by his words. I want out, but this will be just another fling. Another fling, and then he will come back. Why am not strong enough to let him go? I want help and I want closure. I want him to go and never return, ever. I have bought the books, I want to know what others did. I am so alone in this, and I am hurting so bad. Pease can someone tell me how to deal with this, give me hope. Thank you.
Jennie
Help from anyone!!!
Again here i am writing, again trying to work the union out. We were going slow, going for rides just hime and I. He called one day and asked to take my daughter and I out to eat. That was nice, but my daughter now wants nothing to do with home and I. She is 14 and too young not to take into consideration. I told him the truth, that we created this for her, and his kides and it was our fault. He told me that he did not care what she thought or in fact what his kids thought of our union. He accused me of letting my daughter run our life. That is so not true. She lives with me 24/7 and I feel that she does not have a right to say not who I date but a right not to want to be a part of. HELP!!! Of course with this a union is impossible with him, so any suggestions???
Thank you
Hi Trisha,
This is probably not what you would like to hear – but I would ALWAYS put my 14 year old daughter first – especially since she is a teenager. OK there might be some good reasons why she should not have a say in who you choose to date – however there is a history there that may have created a lack of trust in her towards your man – and maybe she has good reason for that. If your man is trying to change his ways and make amends then that is good, but your daughter must be given enough time and space to adjust to any new and positive dynamics that are going on, and to build trust.
Probably the most positive action you could take right now is to access and study a good parenting program to guide you and your daughter through her teenage years – it is top priority that she arrive into adulthood as a stable, healthy, educated and well-adjusted person with a high self-worth. Above all she needs to know she can trust you to put your family first and to protect her while she is young and vulnerable. If your man values your relationship he will understand and take a step back to allow you and your daughter the space you need to adjust – and to keep the family bond intact. (It might be good also for your man to see you putting your family first too because he might not have had that as he was growing up?)
As your daughter matures and gains her independence from you she will not be as directly affected as she is now by whom you choose to date – and she will be grown and flown before you know it!
A good parenting program would help you recognise inappropriate or unacceptable behaviour, and to install healthy boundaries. It would also help you with your assertiveness to protect those boundaries – not only with your daughter, but (if necessary) with your man too. It would be good value if your man were also to enrol in a good parenting program with you to help you both get on the same page (or at least some common ground) with respect to the children of both of you – it sounds like he is trying to do what he needs to do to build a good relationship with you – maybe he will be open to this suggestion? Kim often talks about the book “Hold Onto Your Kids” by Gordon Neufeld – I haven’t read it yet, but I will one day soon hopefully!
Good luck and Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Everyone,
Something happened last night that made me see just how much the dynamics of our relationship has changed. I asked my husband (respectfully) to do something for me that was a small, doable and reasonable request. I would not have been upset had he politely refused, however he threw a dramatic tantrum. My throat instantly tightened with anger, not about him being unwilling to do what I had asked, but that I had just witnessed and been on the receiving end of yet another tantrum from my nearly 54 year old husband who does this too often and normally gets his way (with everyone) because of it. I would normally either lock up for fear of upsetting him further, or get hooked into arguing “the point” with him.
My thought process and response was quick this time though and I focused on the unacceptable behaviour – the tantrum – and like a parent to a teenager I firmly said “Stop tantruming!”. Of course he indignantly denied (or lied) that he had thrown a tantrum and he stormed off to the office. I made up my mind that I was not going to let him get away with this rude behaviour this time and (risking going against Kim’s advice) I followed him to the office and insisted “How you just reacted to my request was a childish tantrum where you could have responded with patience and respect and I would have accepted that. So stop tantruming!”. I then returned to cooking the evening meal and left him to consider what I had said – fortunately he did not follow me back to continue the encounter – but if he did and tried to escalate the situation I was prepared to cut the conversation off with “Enough has already been said, so let’s not pursue this matter any further until we have both calmed down.”
Unbelievably a little while later there was another incident where my husband asked when would I like to do some work in the office that he needed done – I replied “I’ll do the work after we had eaten dinner and cleaned up.”
What my husband did not say in the above though is how he expects me to drop what I am doing and do what he wants immediately. Of course my response did not suit him – so he asked the EXACT SAME question again (pester-power) because he didn’t get the “I’ll do it now.” answer he wanted. I repeated my response to him and then he threw another tantrum! Again I said “Stop tantruming!” and again my husband denied tantruming and he started to twist and turn the events with the focus on himself innocently asking when I wanted to do the work – but with the underlying message being that he is the real “victim” here. I could see what was happening so I responded “I have already said twice when I was prepared to do the work but this is now about you throwing a tantrum everytime something does not go your way. So stop tantruming! If my answer does not suit you then please calmly say why and we will work something out that suits the both of us.” My husband fidgeted for a couple of seconds and then said “Well, it’s has been a long day and I am tired – could we do the work on the weekend?” I said “That will be fine.” My husband fell silent and sat down in his usual place on the lounge with his back to me but with relaxed body language, and then a little while later he said he had just realised that he needed to go and check that he had locked up properly and would I like to go for a drive with him. I said OK and since the security of the property was very important I covered our meals and we went straight away. Was this a test to see if I would drop everything this time? Maybe! But I had to take it on face value, and it was very important. The atmosphere was calm and relaxed between us on the 10 minute drive and we moved on to talk about other things which was good.
I think a valuable lesson was learned last night – not only by my husband but by me as well. For a long time I have known that his tantrums and bullying have really been bluff, smoke-screening, and currency for him to get what he wants when he wants it (The Entitled One), and it has worked for him (perhaps) nearly all of his life. My kids did not get what they wanted from me by throwing tantrums – why have I taken so long to take his tantrums to task? Him being 6′ tall and strong and me being 5’4″ and female might have had something to do with it! Even though he has never hit me – his tantrums still physically scare me as well as mentally and emotionally. Well enough is enough!
I think that my husband is now more of a paper tiger than what he was before and/or I can see better now through the masks of The Show-Off, The Entitled One, The Bully, and The Addictive Self-Soother.
For the past 18 months via BFTLG I have been observing and trying to deal with the unacceptable behaviour side of things – the spoiled brat behaviour – but without taking away his right to be heard and honoured in a sociably acceptable way. Re-parenting in other words while trying to be as diplomatic and respectful as possible. I have struggled with the language of diplomacy because I have been so long caught up in the language of defensiveness within my relationship – and it is so, so important to limit the abuse from both sides of the coin – but I am gradually getting it I hope!
More recently I am seeing that my husband is not holding such a tight grip of control over me – probably because I am taking back more control of myself from him. There was a time when no way would he have allowed me to mentally and emotionally come out “in one piece” like last night – it would have been divide and conquer at all costs. Kim talks about leading the way and now I believe there are times where he is wanting me to “lead the way” without saying it out loud. This is scaring me a little because I have been so used to him driving all these years. I had mostly let go of the wheel in the past out of frustration and defeat because it didn’t matter if ever I protested or argued with him about my needs – it was always his way or the highway and I just had to fit in! So I’ll need to be even more ready to take the wheel from now on it seems if he is going to open up a little more to reality and to building trust and attachment!
(Jennie: You will find many answers to your questions in Kim’s “Back From The Looking Glass” to help you permanently end your relationship with your ex-husband. You will also learn how to create and protect healthy boundaries for yourself not only against your ex-husband but throughout life in general. There is a book which really opened my eyes many years ago called “Women Who Love Too Much” and I think it is still available – I didn’t realise back then how much of myself I had lost or given up – but since then I have learned so much about myself and my relationship that I am grateful for – it has been a huge learning curve but worth every effort.)
All the best,
CD, Australia.
CD,
Thank you for your words of wisdom. Just today my boyfriend got into a huge debate about how he feels that my daughter is ruling the roost. He has always felt that my daughter never wanted him around, to a point that might have been true in the begginning because she did not want to share me, but as the three years went by, she truly seen him in a bad light as how he treated me. Now she has good reason to feel how she does. She is older now and doesn’t seem to midn sharing me, just not with him. She has seen him scream at me, verbally abuse me, break up (engagement) too many times to count. He has been mean to me and she said I could do better. Today I told him that we are a package deal, and we both have to feel that he is willing to change. I cannot let my daughter be in a situation in her own home where she is uncomfortable. His daughters see him one day a week, that is it, mine lives with me 24/7 and this is her home too. Right now he feels that he is overwhelmed with having to fix things, and feels that he wwont be able to. He also says that every time he gets out of line he will be on the outs again. I told him to behave himself and not to get out of line, he was too old to get out of line. Oh, I just dont know. Talk to me more please.
Trisha
Hi Trisha,
Bravo for putting you and your daughter first and letting your boyfriend know that you are a package deal. You are sending a clear message to him that the safety and well being of you and your daughter (and the family bond between you) takes priority over everything else.
Dig your heels in with this one because even though he may be well intentioned he really he does not have any right to tell you how to parent your child (just the same as you don’t have any rights over him with his)especially since he came into your daughter’s life only a few years ago.
With him saying that your daughter is ruling the roost – I sense that he is trying to overcome an obstacle or a problem FOR HIM (and his relationship with you) by putting doubts into your mind as to whom you should be first loyal to. Maybe there is some truth in what he says, but right now he has not earned a higher place in the pecking order than your daughter because he needs to get the fact that his past unacceptable behaviour towards you and your daughter has greatly destroyed your trust in him, and now it is time for him to seriously work on himself to try and rebuild trust between him and you and your daughter again.
I am sure you can empathise with how your boyfriend is feeling overwhelmed and anxious right now – did you feel that way when you discovered what you were faced with when you first sought help from Kim & Steve? I know I sure did – I had a lot to do to change my thinking and behaviour in order to deal with my husband’s antisocial and abusive behaviour. You no doubt have already done so much groundwork and are a fair way down the road of enlightenment & recovery by now – but your boyfriend is just opening the exit door from his false-pride and seeing how much work he has got to do on himself and his relationship with you. He has yet to come to terms with the fact that he has got work to do also regarding his relationships with his daughters and your daughter.
Children are real people with real needs, and these days the “seen and not heard” rule does not apply – they are not “just there” or objects to be told what to do and when to do it anymore. This is why I am suggesting a good parenting program for the both of you to try and get you both on a similar page by learning how to discipline and relate to your children in a world that is nowadays very different from the one we grew up in 30 to 50 years ago! There could be an added bonus too – that you could learn some things about yourselves and your own upbringing – and what the positives and negatives may have been for each of you during those years which may expose some “gaps” and therefore potential opportunity for growth and/or development within each of you.
Right now I suggest that you tell him that you understand how he would be feeling overwhelmed with having to “fix things” (including himself), but that you are prepared to lead the way and stand by him. However at the same time he needs to be reminded that you will not accept unacceptable behaviour – and if he continues question whether everytime he steps out of line that he will be put on the outer again – Well Hello! there ARE consequences for unacceptable behaviour – I love Kim’s “I won’t give you a hard time if you don’t give me a hard time!” – perfect for such an occasion!
Let him know that you understand change is not easy for anyone, but it can and does happen by taking it one day or one step at a time – and that it will take lot of time, patience, education and commitment from the both of you. If he is ready and willing to face that challenge with you then make sure you stay prepared by keeping your 4 legged stool strong and the gapwork, etc up to date.
Your daughter sounds like she is a very intelligent and sensible young lady and she is to be commended for only wanting what is best her and for you – this is a strong and healthy character trait she has developed and it is to be encouraged – stay on this page with her and you will both maintain a high level of self-worth and self-respect – and that is a powerful force against abuse and narcissism.
Good Luck & Stay In Touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi CD,
Please write back to me, I have so much to tell you that has happened and I am beyond repair. This past Friday my daughter and I were in my classic car, 1973 and he was following me all over. I was afraid to pull over because he has been arguing with me. I called him on his cell phone and told him to please stop following me. He did not. I gave him lots of places he could have turned oof. I told him taht he will not like where I will head. He came along side of me and tried to inch me off the road, I was scarred for my classic car that is my pride and joy. I sweaverd away and he back up and lalughed. I went to the police and made a complaint. The next day my daughter and I went to the Dairy Queen and he saw three men looking at my classic car. I was dressed in grubby garden cloths, and had no teeth!!! (Had to have 17 teeth extracted for major dental work) so believe me I did not want any attention from the male sex or anyone else!! But you can imagine how it looked to him. He asked for a 50.00 ring back, blocked me so IO could not move and he we go again. I made another complaint out. The police have since talked to him. But he is another hurt. A few weeks ago on a ride to “talk” an accquaintace of his (she is about 23) years old was waving very wildly. I asked him what was up and of course he said nothing, he hardly talks to her, (she did live with her boyfriend and two young sons with MY boyfriend at his mothers home, (that is were he lives_. As you can tell none is self sufficient and everyone is living off of mamma. She no longer lives there becasue the boyfriend stole from everyone in the house. She tried to move back in his mothers home but was told no by the mother, I wonder how long that no will last because last night he was talking to her by his car uptown where she works, or it was after work hours. You can imagine the hurt that I was possibly right, he hss or would like something to go on with this 23 year old. I am hurt, jealouse because I know he would not treat her the same way and on and on. I am close to 50, he is 45 and I cannot compete with a 23 year old!!!! I do believe he would not have the same issues with her and that hurts me, because iI want to be good enough. She has nothing, no car, no home, and right now no father for her sons, he could give her the use of his car, his mothers house (he would be right there) and she would be controlable and no threat to his masculanity. I just cannot win. I feel so broken and am ashamed for not feeling better about myslef. WHAT IS THE ATTRACTION????? Whay cant I just move on without all the feelings of betrayal, and let that be enough to get me through getting over him. He wanted me to “think” about myself and let him know what I have to offer him and tell me what he has with me. My first thought is that if I have to do that it is pointless, he is just prolonging what he already wants to do and making me feel worse while doing it. Please respond, I need help, maybe even more help than anyone can give me.
Triha
Hi Trisha,
I am really concerned about the intimidation and stalking – I am so glad that you reported both incidents to the police. I can understand how you were concerned that you classic car might have been damaged during the stalking/road rage incident – however my priority for concern would have been for your safety and the safety of your daughter. Have you followed up with the police as to how your boyfriend reacted when they spoke to him? Is there a file now being kept by the police regarding his behaviour? Should a restraining order be obtained?
Trust and act upon your own instincts – it sounds like you want to end the relationship again – if you do then it looks like someone “up there” is looking after you to send the flirty 23 year old! Your boyfriend could be playing emotional blackmail games with you just to “keep you in there”, but he could also be genuinely interested in this girl.
Narcissists operate from a level of ego and yes, this girl maybe ego boosting to him and who knows – he might take up with her, and charm her and treat her like a princess for a while – and this may create uncomfortable and upsetting feelings of rejection in you – but as you have experienced the charm fades sooner or later and the real deal rears its ugly head – but those uncomfortable feelings will go gradually disappear with time. I think this flirty girl’s agenda might just be to get back into his mother’s house!
The way he is behaving towards you is immature and manipulative, but what HE is doing does not make you who you are, and it certainly does not make you unattractive!
I would like to suggest that you go back over this “Narcissism” page and read all of your postings just to help you evaluate what is best for you to do for YOU. (You can do this more quickly by searching using Ctrl+F then enter Trish as the search word). Pay particular attention to Kim’s responses to you.
Remember you and your daughter are the most important people in your life – make sure you have a strong support network in place and stay safe!
Good Luck,
CD, Australia.
Hi everyone
I have just read some of your comments and am concerned about a few things and feel I must add something before I head for bed.
Trisha- PLEASE listen to what CD is saying to you.. her advice is invaluable, she has a lot of insight and is not only intuitive but has researched a lot of what she is advising herself. She has a good handle on it in other words. Read her messages to you from the beginning and put into action those that you know in your heart of hearts are the most crucial….one for starters is your daughter’s needs must come first in this situation. Your daughter needs to see that you are not letting this man rule your life.. think about what lessons you are giving her if you continually allow him back in. She will grow up herself allowing the same sort of man to control her if you are not clear about this.
How do I know this to be true? Because that is exactly what happened to my daughter and in fact I believe to my son also. I ‘allowed’ their father who was an N who abused me not only verbally causing deep emotional hurt but also he physically abused me too and so in staying with him and continually forgiving him I gave them the impression it was okay to be seen to be treated badly by others and that turning the other cheek was the norm. My children grew up therefore with no boundaries for others hurting them and both were bullied at school and in relationships in different ways. My daughter’s partner has a lot of similarities to her father and my son’s ex girlfriend hurt my son so deeply with her bad behaviour that I am not sure he will ever fully recover. Our children learn by examples set by us, particularly when they are young and in their informative years. Their templates for their own behaviour is set down very early on in their little lives and if they see a continuance of their parents being on the receiving end of bad behaviour they may not only become the bullied but could become bullies themselves in order to achieve results or gain control of others where they have felt their own lives at home were out of their control. Your daughter is precious to you I know and you love her very much.. show her just how much you love her with this relationship with your N boyfriend who quite frankly (in my books) does not deserve you! Let him get on with his miserable life and do not think you are having to compete with a 23 year old! Life is too short Trisha! When you allow yourself to heal you will see in time that there are very nice men out there who really do care and will want to share your life and will have earned the right to do so.
Do you remember a few months back I was devastated by the end of my relationship with the N in my life.. as a professional career woman, I found it very hard to understand how I had let this man get under my skin but its only when you read the books, and listen to the radio shows and downloads that you really start to get to grips with it all… do not be hard on yourself.. you are afterall, like the rest of us, only human! Start filling your life with your daughter, give her a gift of your love and devotion right now to make her feel as though she is important to you. Go bowling with her, take her out to dinner.. spend quality time with her and rebuild your relationship. If she feels comfortable with a man in the future, she will have no problem you dating I can assure you. Her discomfort now is because she knows enough from what she sees from the sidelines to know this man is toxic in your life! She is afraid of losing her mom!
Do you know my little granddaughter did not take very well to my ex boyfriend when we were together. He used to try and get her to smile and laugh and she would not respond very well to him at all, in fact she often cried if he as much as looked at her. he often used to pull really odd faces at her that he thought were funny but now with hindsight, even as young as she was, I think she was genuinely picking up something about him that was not gelling with her. She sees less of my son but absolutely adores her Uncle and he genuinely adores her too.. but the BF….? There was something wrong there that made her feel uncomfortable from day one! She is only 2 years old now so that says something big doesn’t it?!
Jennie – My heart goes out to you as I have been where you are too and the thoughts and fears and deep pain you are feeling resonate with me. My earlier posts are here from when I joined in January I think it was but to fill you in.. I was married to an N and ended this back many years ago, although I did not know then what I was dealing with. I stuck at it for nearly 20 years but my spirit was starting to crumble and I had to get out before I would let him break that. I recovered very quickly after my marriage ended, much more quickly than I thought actually.. but over the years I had had a few non starter relationships with men who were like little boys in a candy shop…. staying only until something better, or younger or prettier or smarter came along. The last one was an N for sure and I used this site amongst a few others to ‘diagnose’ this personality disorder.
There is a lot of good advice here and CD has a good handle on it all and I cannot praise her highly enough for knowing what to offer in terms of sensible and realistic advice. Do read the books she suggests ( I did) if only to realise that you are not going out of your mind or imagining things about these N’s in our lives.. and that you are worth a lot more than they would ever have you believe!
Whatever you do.. DO NOT let your husband break your spirit…easier said than done I know and especially when you are already so low. I have been where you are now and I can honestly say it is one of the worst places I have been in my life. That is apart from being widowed many years ago…but being with an N is an incredibly exhausting place to be and should not be undermined in any way, shape or form. These people are mentally disordered, there are often reasons for this and sometimes they are willing to work with you when they realise that you have figured them out and other times they really are not willing for those changes to be made. It is always about re-parenting them as their own parents ( and particularly their mothers it seems) have not fulfilled the full parenting potential for them. They may have missed out on learning about empathy.. perhaps their mother’s put themselves first or even over indulged them so they did not learn boundaries necessary to cohabitation and compromise. My last N had both those situations when he was growing up, he told me once that he had no time for his mother (she is in her late 80′s) as she had always put herself first. He was also a very spoiled and over indulged only child. ( I am also an only child but my parents had enough common sense to bring me up differently and were in fact quite strict..although, thankfully, a very loving one)… there was a good balance between discipline and love, empathy for others and compassion and respect shown to me and others.
When I talked to his mother once she said he was their only one and they wanted to give him everything he wanted.. sadly she missed out on something there…..she did not give him her time without putting her own needs first.
So you think of yourself now in this and please do not consider leaving your children, they need their mother more than ever .. even if you think you are able to hide your pain, they will sense it, my children did, yet I never cried in front of them or shouted back at my husband in front of them.. if he kicked off I would hush him up or pacify him so that the children would not hear him losing it.
Read everything you can read which you will find here,I listened to what CD advised me to read and gained alot of important insight into my relatiionships past and present (now past as I have ended it with the N Boyfriend)… and I learned a lot about myself in the process.
I am finally getting to grips with a lot of things about me that really needed a firm hand. I realised that in my desire to please people, I allowed certain people to speak to me badly, forgiving them as I had been brought up to do.. even when they did not apologise or deserve to be forgiven so easily.. because they themselves had not learned the lesson there. I do have regrets that my relationship is over with my boyfriend but I have to say that I have felt so much better for having made that decision. It was a hard one to make especially in the light of my age (mid 50′s) as I felt that none of us are perfect and that I should forgive and forget .. the trouble is Jennie that I was the only one doing that. He had no intention of forgiving anything or moving on from anything even when I had not done anything wrong except defend myself against his constant put downs and verbal attacks. I started to feel my self esteem was rock bottom.. he criticised my career once (and only once as my worm turned then!) and it was all downhill after that. I tried to mend the bridge which had been burned but I started to realise after reading posts here and the literature available out there and ebooks here that I really did not want to live like that anymore and that I was the only one who could change. He would not ever change. Some people on here have made it work it seems but I do feel that if someone is making your life that miserable, that you really should get out whilst you can. If the marriage can be salvaged and where there are children I know it makes sense to do so as children never want their parents to break up but it is also so damaging to them to grow up in an angry, defensive and fearful household. I have seen the evidence of that first hand with both of my children.
A ‘friend’ of mine was also showing these tendencies of an N but he lives some distance from me so I do not see him socially as such, we just keep in touch via phone and emails/texts. However, last night, he hit a nerve and I ended the friendship. He has done this before in the past and I have forgiven him when he apologises which he has done at least 3 times in 3 years. This time there will be no forgiving as I have decided and have written to him to tell him so, not to contact me ever again. I have told him he is rude and obnoxious and that I have no desire to continue the friendship. I emailed him initially after his rude outburst and told him I thought his behaviour was unacceptable and I was quite cutting about that too. He then replied with even more venom .. to which I wrote back and told him that I really did not care what he thought of me that this was his choice – then he wrote back and said that he thought I was softening and showing that I care for him otherwise I would not have replied and he was goading me to continue the email confrontations… I replied once more and said DO NOT CONTACT ME EVER AGAIN! END OF! He replied with another tirade of abuse and I have ignored it. When I ignored him he became more abusive and then tonight when I switched on pc I noticed that this morning before he went to work, he had sent me simply a row of kisses… this is his way of trying to sneak back into my good books.. I ignored that and deleted the email and tonight whilst I was busy with my family, I noticed that he had sent me a text inviting me to a hotel which he would pay for in our home town this summer.. you see he is trying to get back into my favour as this is where he can exercise his greatest control (so he thinks).. then when he thinks he has me where he wants me again or I say something he does not agree with then he will abuse me again verbally and scold me for something ridiculous and childish. Last night’s abuse stemmed from a forward I had sent him with some sentimental clap trap as he called it and he had told me to grow up and he also attacked my professionalism in this. He ‘thought’ he knew how to hurt me.. and I agree that once upon a time before this site, that probably would have worked.. now it was water off a ducks back and I just saw him for what he was…..another N in my life.. except now he too is in the past tense. I will not accept bad behaviour anymore from anyone. I had a female friend who was the female N version and boy was she a nasty piece of work. We had been friends for many many years.. since we were 18 and over the years I had encountered many unpleasant attacks from her. But I never retaliated at all, I just used to make excuses for her and she got away without an apology ever. Back in 2008 she was so rude to me over something so trivial you would not believe it.. I had sent her a photo via email of my granddaughter, her computer was a really old one with a small hard drive and so she was unable to open my photo.. so instead of explaining that, she wrote to me and said simply “send again, I can’t open it!”.. which I did.. and she wrote back and said “do not ever contact me again.. I cannot open your photo and it irritates me!” oh and PS .. I don’t know what makes you think you can wear a swimsuit!” I was so shocked by her last comment I burst into tears.. when I calmed down and stopped shaking I looked at her actions and wondered if she was unhinged in some way.. then I remembered all the other times she had said cruel things .. and I realised that this was borne out of jealous rage. She was angry that she had not ever met Mr Right (ha ha.. not that I have mind you!) and had not ever had kids of her own and therefore no grandchildren and so she had to hit back with something that she knew would upset me .. or hurt me.. and that was to hit me below the belt as she knew I had been trying to lose weight at the time in order to go on vacation and wear a swimsuit and look halfway reasonable in it. It was such a hurtful and needless thing to say and so when I calmed down, I sat and drafted an email to her.. I then slept on it and read it the next morning and then sent it and told her that I no longer intended to put up with or tolerate her rudeness and intentionally cruel remarks. She and I have had no contact since then. It was a shame as we had been what I thought was close friends for over 30 years but then I thought about the relationships she had with people and how she always complained about everyone and everything.. nothing was ever her fault and how she hated her parents for not giving her enough love she said and always putting themselves first and how she was always falling out with friends and family. When I read posts on this site, I realised that I had a female friend who was clearly an N all those years ago too at the same time I was married to an N. She was at that time, my best friend even though she frequently spoke to me like dirt. But I was so under the thumb of my husband and her that I had thought I really wanted them in my life.
Is there life after involment with these destructive personalities? Yes I believe there is! I still think of my N boyfriend.. it has been 6 months now since I called it a day and 4 months since I last saw him when he came to collect his things. Recently it was my birthday and he sent a card and signed it with love and a kiss…I thought.hmm what is he up to? I thanked him however and have heard nothing else since. We were together for 2 years although we did not live together.
I have started dating again ….. 2nd date with him and 3rd one coming up at the weekend.. I am so cautious though now.. he is courteous and when he cannot ring when he has said he would, he does at least call me to apologise for not being able to chat for longer or something.. he said the one thing that he noticed about me straight away was my politeness and sincerity and that he places great store by that as he said it costs nothing. This is one area where my ex N had very little graces.. he treated people quite badly at times.. waitresses and waiters were treated as 2nd class citizens often and he rarely left a tip unless he fancied the waitress of course. I am not rushing into anything with anyone though.. I am giving myself time to recover and heal still.
I hope you are all allowing yourself time to heal and remember please that Life is too short to be spending your days and nights in turmoil and tears!
Take care and night night
xx
Hi there ,
Im really not sure if my X is a narcisst- a short while after I began to live with him an ex of his that he referred to as his ‘ stalker’ told me that he had NPD – however she was very bitter and seemed quite unbalanced herself. However,after 2 years of living with my X I felt quite unbalaced myself.
Despite my lack of faith in the woman who told me he had NPD ( she didnt qualify this with explaining how she reached this opinion ) some of the things she said rang alarm bells, because I had such deep concerns about some of his behaviour. I spent hours researching and reading about personality disorders because I felt there was a key to explain his behaviour for me to understand better and to help him. I have some knowledge of psychology and psychiatry so I didnt start my exploration as a novice. At first I thought that my X was probably on the autistic spectrum – some of the things he did seemed classic – when I read about NPD – he also seemed to fit this well , but not all traits.
How can I describe this man in less than a million words ! ? I still love him deeply and I really do not understand where the magnetic pull to him comes from any longer as he has been so cruel and caused such devastation within my family. However I do beieve that I have now turned a corner and that I really have accepted I cannot be with him as its so self destructive, this makes me feel that due to a more neutral state I should try to get to the bottom of his behaviour and help him even more.
I think the most difficult part of his behaviour is that he is profoundly emotionally selfish the majority of he time , he seems completely incapable of empathy – he is a very charasmatic intelligent articularte man ( masters in law) and due to this his responses to some situations are really inconsistent with his level of learning. He is really inconsistent , gets very irritable at the slightest crticism even if people around him are just joking having banter – holds massive grudges , quickly takes an intense dislike to some people , criticses most people, and often thinks others are trying to use him or defraud him in some way – he feels he has been wronged a lot in life sometimes to the extent it seems paranoid . He has severed all contact with his family for many years – thats his twin brother, 3 other brothers and both his parents – his mother died and he didnt attend her funeral as he said she never believed in him.
When we lived together we were totally absorbed – sometimes it seemed as if he tried to isolate me and stop others socialising with me – in those early days when I began to see that there was something wrong with his behaviour but was desperate to be with him I often thought that if only the rest of the world would go away I could cope – if only we lived on a desert island … my daughters referred to him as the ‘ psycho’ and begged me to send my relationship many times but I could not bear the hurt it caused me or him when we argued and seperated – I felt and still feel very protective towards him. I just need to understand more thanks x x
John, CD and everyone else who is gaining from all of this.
First – thanks for the reminders to just not respond. I get pulled into responding both because I get defensive, and because when I disengage I being “rude, disrespectful or not willing/able to communicate.” I’m trying to counter those arguements as I am cutting off the discussion. It takes a few rounds of my saying I am not continuing, but it is progress. Tonight’s “teaching lecture” was that the refrigerator was cluttered and needed to have things thrown out, and how this was an example of how my brain is scattered and disorganized, and how
this was something that I _could have_ gotten some respect, if I had managed it in a _better way_. “If someone looked at it, would they say here is someone who is capable of functioning?, They would look at it and say, here is someone who can’t even manage something as simple as keeping the refrigerator (or X – fill in the blank from other arguements) clean.” This followed from a sequence of pokes or indirect comments being made to my boys about how my cleanliness standards are sub par, how irrational I am, and how everything he says to them is logical.
While I agreed the fridge needed to be decluttered and cleaned, nothing was egregious or unreasonable. I’m just so tired of this behavior pattern – it is really not good for me, or for my boys. For a while I need to just get away, because I feel like I can’t do anything, and I question if I am so flawed that I should be disengaging from the family, so as not to teach them my standards. I write this and I know it is absurd – my flaws and quirks are not so significant. At the time, he can “logic” me into agreeing with specific incident A,B and C and then having to accept over-generalization D.
That being said, I know that my getting upset, allowing that upsetment to keep me from maintaining a clear head, to get done what I need to get done, and to not respond back in a defensive manner – these are all my issues and my responsibility. They are hard enough …
CD -
I appreciate your examples. You spoke of recognizing that your husband is not holding such a tight grip of control over you. I know my vulnerability right now is that I am not working, have some garbage to clear up with my last employer, and both of my parents are cognitively slipping (small strokes,)so I am feeling that growing loss and increased demands. I’ll get back to work at some level shortly, but right now even the little personal projects I want to do are not getting the attention I would like. We have the flexibilty for me to not be working as I figure out what is the right next step, and I wish I could be more appreciative of that. I try and say I am for the time with the boys, but I do not show it day in and day out in a way that my husband can “hear it from me.” Here, fatigue and resentment get in the way.
Kim talks of strong professional husbands wanting/needing a spouse who can be strong and competent at home. As you said, “lead the way,” but when I take control over X, it is corrected and “improved,” which gets me angry (and probably not hearing the comments that would be are helpful.) I too feel I have let go of more and more of the wheel out of frustration and defeat because it didn’t matter – it usually is his way although he will never see it) He has always wanted us to “sync up,” yet I feel it has mostly been my aligning to his position. The conflicts are around the ones where I actively don’t, or passively don’t. I have always seen myself as a consensus builder, and sometimes I don’t have the knowledge of myself or my opinions to defend them.
Hi there,
I was wondering if anyone out there has had issues with sleep anxiety and managed to resolve this – with a partner who is showing narcisstic tendencies? My partner has been very verbally abusive in the past, but after implementing Kim’s advice, things have improved alot. Unfortunately, I still have as a ‘hangover’, a sleep anxiety which only occurs when I am sleeping in the same bed as my partner (and in his house – I moved in with him so it has something to do with the environment as when we have been away on holiday I have slept fine). Even though things have improved between us, I am still struggling with developing a good sleeping pattern and sometimes can go all night feeling anxious towards him and may not sleep at all.
I am hoping someone may be able to advise me, as I have tried alot of relaxation/audio tapes and tried to calm myself down but it doesnt seem to work.
Vanessa
Hi Vanessa, Anna, MR and everyone..
Vanessa
I had the same problem and the sleep problems did not disappear until he was out of my life. I could not settle at night and just felt my nerves were ‘jagged’ and that in some way, even when he was asleep, I still was not safe or protected from him.. the energy permeating off his body and mind even at night when he was fast asleep, was noticeable to me. One night before he and I split up, he slept in my spare room as I had flu at the time and had been coughing a lot..I slept peacefully and woke refreshed.. I had found that when he wasn’t there I slept like this but whenever he was there and we were having to share the bed, the sleep deprivation for me continued.
The problem with lack of sleep is that it impairs not only our cognitive thinking processes but also our bodies are not restoring and repairing themselves but also and this should not be undermined, our emotional state is being affected in a very negative and detrimental way. This then has a huge knock on effect on our lives in so many ways and it will begin to infiltrate itself into your physical health as well as your emotional and mental health.
Maybe you can suggest sleeping apart for a while, find an excuse.. tell him you are worried that your sleeping patterns are keeping him awake.. perhaps even make sure that they do keep him awake for a few nights so that he is aware of you waking…..this could be dangerous behaviour though especially if he is then verbally abusive to you. It was enough for my ex N as he did not want to have his sleep disturbed for any reason whatsoever! His needs were always of prime importance as far as he was concerned. If he had a bad night, boy didn’t I know about it, and god help me if it was because of me! My ex husband who was also an N was the same. The last 2 years of our marriage, we slept apart. I could not tolerate his negative energy in the bed either.. it was almost as if the ‘monster’ was not ever asleep.. always keeping an eye on me so to speak! Sorry that is not meant to sound offensive but that is how it felt.
If you are intent on making the relationship work however, then I can recommend hypnotherapy to help you to tune yourself out from the triggers that upset your emotional response and instigate a tense state within you. Your therapist should be able to anchor you to a good feeling or situation which you can then use to ensure that bedtimes are pleasureable rather than fearful. I hope this helps.. I do not think listening to a relaxation CD is going to help as it is your unconscious mind that is at play here.
Anna and MR – I understand completely where you are coming from and have ended relationships with 2 N’s in my life because of the fears of self destructive forces which were set out to destroy me. I felt so worn down by it all and like you also came into this scene, exploring and researching from a knowledge base of psychology/psychiatry.. it does not make it any easier though does it? I could not believe that with my training, I had not seen him coming. He really caught me by surprise. I think though I was too hard on myself – I did not know what I was up against with my ex husband, I knew he had issues but I did not know that he had a personality disorder and it was on discovering this diagnosis with the most recent ex N in my life that it highlighted the areas of concern I had always had with my ex husband when we were together.
These people are very clever.. they are masters of the art of deception, they are capable of almost anything to get what they want. I am not sure my ex boyfriend would have taken to phyiscal abuse but he certainly used verbal abuse on a daily basis to exercise control of me. I found the whole relationship which lasted 2 years, very painful and it has left me feeling that I cannot trust men at the moment. I am working on this and am dating again but boy am I wary of every comment or action. I do not want to be this way, I do not want to scrutinise everything and everyone but having been caught at least twice in my life, I feel at least for the moment I have to be extra vigilant. I think if I ended up with another N in my life it would knock me out and I am not sure how I would cope! I am a strong and independent woman usually but being with an N nearly destroyed all that and my self esteem and self confidence was rock bottom when I was with both the N’s in my life. I could not believe that having recovered from the tumultuous life with my ex husband that I had ‘found’ myself right back where I left off 11 years ago. I was truly staggered.
The recovery process has been much slower this time around.. but I am now 11 years older than when I first dealt with ending it with an N. Should be older and wiser perhaps but I think that it was such a shock to realise that I had given 2 years of my precious time to yet another man with this dreadful disorder that I just could not get my head around it. I felt a fool for not seeing what was now so blatantly obvious. I was annoyed with myself for not standing up to him but I found that a lot of his bad behaviour was so overwhelmingly belittling that I did not have the strength to deal with it.
I was not working as much as I should and my whole focus on life went out the window, I really ‘lost’ myself there for a while. Getting back on track has been drawn out and now 6 months on, I can say I am finally feeling the ‘poisonous substance’ is out of my system. I missed him terribly to start with and cried a lot, I missed the relationship, the part of us that was good and all the things we had said we would do but realistically he never had any intentions of carrying out…I realised afterwards they were my dreams and not his and he was just going along with them.
When I looked back using that wonderful tool of hindsight, I could see that he had not ever really talked of wanting to do things..I thought it was because he had already achieved so much in his life, been where he had wanted to go etc, but it was much deeper than that.. he really had not got a clue what having a dream was all about. Just like he had no empathy or understanding for anyone’s problems or desires.
It is hard to believe still that I was so involved with him and that he was such a big part of my life when he really put so little into the relationship. Rather, it was always about what he could take from it – how it could serve his purpose in life and how I, like you, had to align myself to his way of thinking. If I did not agree with him about the slightest thing, he would withdraw from me or verbally attack me, find a put down about me or how I run my life and home or care for my family or whatever his latest method would be and boy did he do it well! I never knew which one of his monsters would rear its ugly head at any given time, but I did know it had to be my fault everytime! I could not figure out how he could be so vindictive or even how he could not see when he had started something off….but he really just did not see it.
Fortunately, my vison has increased so much since he and I parted company and I have found pleasures in small things again and the recovery process is well under way, if not nearing completion. It FEELS akin to what it must be like to have been in rehab and been weaned off a dangerous drug. Thank God! Big sigh……. you will be fine.. not every case is going to be repaired and at the end of the day, I have to ask how much pain should any one of us be expected to bear.. life is short enough!
I too, though like you find that I have defended him if someone has said something about him since we split up. That is human nature at the end of the day. We can say what we want but woe betide anyone else who criticises people we care/d about. I can understand it when we protect our children/parents/siblings but I have asked myself why I do it for him? He may have ‘protected’ my good name whilst he was with me but he certainly would not now. If he had defended me against anyone else though I now know there would have been a motive. I remember though once being upset by a comment a friend made (see above in my previous post – she was an N too) and he could not understand why I was so upset and did not take my side against what she had said. I was even more upset. He told me I was reading too much into it and that I should be able to cope with criticism, whereas my girlfriends told me that the friend was no friend if she behaved like that… he could not see it! Why? Because he would have said the very same sort of thing to me and he knew it! He did in fact say very similar things and did some dreadful things to me, things that were so humiliating and degrading to me and some in public view. He thought he was being funny in putting me down but the friends present thought he was disgusting! My ex husband also did this. Again I sit here and shake my head in disbelief that I did not see the similarities and run a mile!
I did something stupid the other night.. I told the ex N in a roundabout sort of way that I was missing him, having had a weak moment and was feeling a bit nostalgic about a few things. I instantly regretted sending the email as he replied and told me that he would try and call me in the future for a chat…taking control again I thought .. so I waited 24 hours before responding and told him about how good life was here .. busy and had been away on a lovely holiday etc… he had been so quick to report back to me about how good his life was. Afterwards though, I thought I was too hard on myself.. again I am only human and I react to stimuli as a human… whether that is a memory or whatever…in this case it was a tv show we always watched together and here I was watching it alone.. I felt so alone and had a weak moment..a bit like when you are on a diet and eat some chocolate or a cookie and you think “why did I do that?” But you know it was just a blip and you get right back on the diet.. we are allowed blips in life!
Hi CD and Trisha, John….how are you?
Hugs
HM
Take care
HM
Hi Vanessa,
Check out our audio for sleep indiction on the page here;
http://www.wellnessaudio.com/pre-launch-special.html
I find it works great and the headphones block out Steve’s snoring!!!
Kim
Hi MR,
Does your husband judge how functional other people are by how clean they keep their fridges? Or does he only judge you in that way? I suspect it would be the latter. In Kim’s Verbal Abuse 2 at http://www.narcissismdailymirror.com – her whole article gives great information regarding false-pride. In one of your past postings you said you didn’t know what your husband’s false pride was – do you see a parallel between Kim’s story in Verbal Abuse 2 as I have copied and pasted below – and in what has just happened with the fridge incident and countless other things that your husband is critical of you about?
Kim said:
“Steve’s lie was that he was a more capable parent than me. That he was a better cook, was better organised and had better common sense and more friends.
This was not true but when I let his false pride dominate me I let it BECOME TRUE.
I would hide in my room at breakfast time because I could not handle the way he talked to all of us like some kind of overzealous army officer. I stopped cooking too because I was so hurt by him bossing me around in the kitchen and putting me down.
So after years of letting this rip me to shreds and playing the victim, instead I decided to expose the lies and show myself and my family he was wrong whether he admitted it or not. I did not wait for him to admit to the lie, because that would never have happened. Instead I exposed it myself while putting zero blame or pressure on him.
I did not wait for apologies or rub his face in it but instead took charge in the areas of our life I knew that I was really better at than him.”
Do you see how the demeaning sort of attitude of Steve towards Kim in those days would have been oppressing until Kim said – No more! And she took charge by assessing and doing what she was really good and stronger at than Steve – and making Steve get out of her way. It might be good for you to read Verbal Abuse 2 again at this stage. No matter what your husband says “He is not better than you!” – you are no doubt talented and accomplished in many ways – and the more he is allowed to get away with this the more he will continue – because he can – and it will wear you down and maybe even convince you that he is “right” when the truth is that you have become enslaved to his destructive false-pride.
I was so pleased to read in your last posting:
“While I agreed the fridge needed to be decluttered and cleaned, nothing was egregious or unreasonable. I’m just so tired of this behavior pattern – it is really not good for me, or for my boys. For a while I need to just get away, because I feel like I can’t do anything, and I question if I am so flawed that I should be disengaging from the family, so as not to teach them my standards. I write this and I know it is absurd – my flaws and quirks are not so significant.”
You can see the absurdity of it all – nothing you are doing is unreasonable or life threatening – and you are NOT a bad influence on your children – but your husband’s false-pride is! Read Kim’s Verbal Abuse 2 again and I am sure you will find some of the one liners useful in your situation.
Also try to plan a holiday for you and the boys as soon as possible – go have fun with them – you need it and they need to be able to relax and live for a while within (your) reasonable expectations as well.
Cheers,
CD, Australia.
HI HM and CD
Boy I sure can use more of your wisdom. I am at the point where he is sorry again but there is also something new going on. HE is unsure whether we can make it work. According to him his counsleor tell him that there is so much that has happened that maybe we both should start fresh with someone else. He is also concerned about my daughter and her feelings of not wanting him around. He sounds like he is defeated and giving up. Is this possible?? I did notice that he olny cares that my daughter doesn’t want him around, not how she got those feelings!!! Why do I feel so bad about what wnt on for those three years and he just wants to forget those years. He told me he is not looking back and cannot be with someone who does. I do look back at what we had, I only wish I could depend on looking forward and not having the same stuff happen again, different topic, or different day. Please write me back. Is this another way taht the N gets us back, by acting like they want to leave? Love you guys, you are my lifeline.
Trisha
I read countless stories and I am reading Back From The Looking Glass. I have no idea if it was my ex-husband or me who had narcissim. I see myself as the N in so many of these stories and him as the N also. Is it possible that we both were. I am so afraid of getting myself into another relationship where I become the monster in someone’s life. I know my ex-husband, David, use to wonder when the beast would go to bed. I never meant to hurt him or make him afraid. I wanted us to have a marriage where we could talk to one another and confide in each other. I knew it wouldn’t be perfect, but I expected to at least feel valued and important. I always cam second, third, last in his life, and I always felt sad and misunderstood. I was always the one to pick up the pieces of his life and help him. I was the one who would stay up all night with him. He would make me so angry and felt starved for affection and attention. He would take over my life and make me feel so useless. In turn, I am not sure I was any better. I would threaten him, verbally abuse him, and make him frighten in our home. I would throw tantrums like a small child. He referred to me as two people, one nice and the other not so nice. I always felt on the defensive, never knowing when the next blow up fight would happen. I would walk on egg shells until I would feel enough is enough. I would become explosive and violent. His friends right now are probably advising that he get a restraining order on me. The funny thing about this whole situation is I don’t know how it got so esculated. I am not this person he describes. I am happy go lucky and and I am always smiling. How did I become this beast? Since when did someone I loved need a restraining order against me. Am I a N, was all this craziness somehow related to my personality disorder. I know that any relationship you are in, no matter how much you love the person will never be perfect. We are all flawed in some way and none of us are perfect. You have to love someone for who they are not for who you want them to be. I never wanted a perfect relationship, just one I felt accepted in. I always felt like an outsider in David,s life, like piece of a puzzle that did not fit. I can’t stop talking about him or thinking about him. I can’t talk to him, and if I did it would do no good. We have nothing left together except empty dreams and broken hopes. I never want to be that person again, but I never want to be with David again either. So where do you go and how do get enough strength to change? I don’t want to be the evil character in the love of my life’s story, but somehow that is what I am?
Hi Jennie,
It can be life changing when you recognise any unhealthy narcissistic traits your ex has or had, and then to learn how to deal with the emotionally immature behaviour associated with it – whether or not you are together or apart.
However it is even more life changing if you are prepared to recognise any unhealthy narcisstic traits within yourself – and I suspect everyone does – including me. Once you acknowledge any unhealthy narcissistic traits within yourself – then it can be incredibly rewarding personally to do the work to replace those traits with mentally and emotionally mature attitudes & behaviour. Doing this will promote one of the things each of us would most like in life – which is the respect of others toward us.
Being honest with yourself is a major step towards your own recovery and growth toward emotional intelligence – whether you are co-dependent or narcissistic or both. Being honest with yourself helps you to face reality and to get things into perspective – to apportion responsibility truthfully – and not to loosely, recklessly blame yourself or others for all the difficulties in your life. Getting things into perspective and working on yourself is one of the most healthiest and valuable things you can do for yourself – because afterall you will have a life-long relationship with yourself and you will encounter (and perhaps have to interact with) narcissistic people at various times thoughout your life (including your ex).
Kim has an excellent article that is stored on a former blog site that doesn’t seem to be obviously accessible. I have given the link below but I had to keep pressing “OK” until I could get through the “Secure Site” message. (Could Kim or Steve make this article available on one of the current blog sites? It is a great one to refer to when questions arise within us about our own level of unhealthy narcissism.)
http://www.narcissismsupport.com/narcissism_Support/Kims_Blog/Entries/2007/10/14_On_Ego.html
It may all seem overwhelming at first, but just take it all one step and one day at a time and a whole new and healthy way of living will open to you.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi Trisha
Good to hear from you and know that you are okay, albeit having a tough time again! Read your post again, I know we all read each other’s but read yours… read it with objectiveness if you can. Imagine it is me writing it or your daughter in years to come. I think you know the answer to the problem. I can’t tell you what to do, none of us can, but I can tell you the writing is on the wall for you to see, if you can manage that. Look at what you said where you write and I quote “He is also concerned about my daughter and her feelings of not wanting him around. He sounds like he is defeated and giving up. Is this possible?? I did notice that he olny cares that my daughter doesn’t want him around, not how she got those feelings!!!”
From where I am standing, and I can only say this with the conviction of having been on receiving end of such comments from the 2 men with this personality disorder, whom I have been married to and been a girlfriend/part time partner of spanning a 22 year combined period… it speaks volumes to me that he is being very much the N still.. blaming your daughter for not wanting him there is classic N behaviour. Remember they will not take responsibility for their actions or what part they played in anything, unless it is something that has worked well, then of course they take all the glory as though you were not even there!
Don’t think you are going to change him or that he will change for the better for any length of time hun. That is not to say that he or anyone else with this cannot change, however, it is always going to be much harder for those of us who are not married to these people nor share children and family life. Although in many respects, we have it the easiest because we don’t share these areas with them, we can at least walk away and start over and rebuild our lives.
I am not sure that the counsellor should be telling him though that you should both start afresh with someone else.. perhaps he/she is not fully aware of what his problems are.. remember he will only have told this person what he wants them to know. I know for a fact that my ex N’s would not ever have told anyone they were wanting to receive help from that I considered that they had a mental health problem!! Let’s face it they cannot see it.. unless you went to that appt with him in the first instance and put your views across to that counsellor, they are only going to have his word to consider. Even so, they should not be giving that sort of advice. HOWEVER.. what you have to think about is that they may have put it to him though in a question which he has turned around to suit himself. What is more likely to have been said is ‘what about if you were both to go your separate ways? What would you feel about that?…’I am not a counsellor, but a different type of therapist and I would want to know what my client would consider but I WOULD NEVER tell or advise them to look for someone new! That is simply not good practice! You want clients to start to think for themselves and so always ask open questions for example, never a closed one and never advice like that.
So ask yourself some open questions? ie. ‘what do I stand to gain if I continue with this relationship?’, ‘what will he gain from the continuance of this relationship?’ ‘what will my daughter feel if I continue this relationship?’ conversely – ‘what will I feel like if I am no longer dealing with this situation?’ ‘what will I feel I can do if I no longer have this man in my life?’ You cannot answer for your daughter – her feelings are hers alone, however, it may help you to consider what she may feel. From reading your past posts, I think she will feel mighty relieved. What yuo do need to establish though here is that she is just feeling that way because it is him and she sees through his bad behaviour. Remember others looking in can see a lot more clearly than those of us who are standing too close.. objectivity is a wonderful tool. We wish we all had it all the time… sadly even therapists and mental health professionals are not immune when it comes to our own affairs of the heart.
I can only tell you that whilst I am not saying withdrawl (yes I did say withdrawal.. it is like a drug rehab programme).. I am feeling so much better than I was 7 months ago. Life is on the upward turn, my business prospects have improved too which is great news as EVERYTHING was affected when I was constantly worrying about my relationship. I really had no time for anything else. I also know that I talked incessantly to my friends and close family members about him.. how he was upsetting me, how he could be so cruel and thoughtless and selfish…….I cringe now when I think of how I talked about him constantly.. trying to make sense of what seemed unbelievable change of behaviour in someone that I had loved so deeply. I still think about him and what we had and I do so sometimes with my ex husband too, and that has been over for 12 years.
But life does continue to move forward and as long as you are willing to embrace the healing and take only baby steps every day to a place of recovery, making time for yourself and your daughter, you will be fine. I am not a religious person in the fundamental sense of the word but I do have deep spiritual beliefs about how we should treat each other and about a higher being.. I prayed to this higher being, the cosmos …whatever your word for this is – God, Allah.. Jehovah… I asked for guidance and strength every morning and thanked my higher being for the strength given at the end of the day. My mother and grandmother regularly used to say to me (after my 1st husband’s death 30+ years ago) that God will never give you more than you can bear. This is true whatever your feelings or beliefs are. I do believe that you.. yourself.. your higher spirit/being/unconsious mind will guide you to your place of safety if you ask and listen to the reply. In order to listen, you need to be in a place of quiet and order and I know when there is an N in your life, it is hard to find that place of calm sometimes.. but ask for it and it will be found. Your mind will seek it out.
My life is good now.. I am dating again and although it is very early days, I have been seeing a man for a few dates.. I am taking it very slow and working hard at not making comparisons between him and the previous 2 N’s. Yet, I am aware too that I do not NEED to be with a man, but I would like to meet someone to share things with. Most of my friends are in relationships and it is fun when you can go to an event with someone whose company you enjoy. I have though started doing things with my single girlfriends and even on my own again too and yes of course it is much nicer to do things with someone to share the events of the day.. the experiences you encounter and chat about them at the end of the day’s outing, but I have proven to myself that I can still enjoy these things without male company! Something I had realised before I was programmed to believe that I had to have a man at my side to feel I could enjoy the small pleasures of life. I do not think I am doing a good job here of explaining what I mean by that as I am now clock watching as I have a friend coming in out of town and I must collect her from the station shortly. I have not even prepared the spare room yet! So on that note I will go but I will say this that whilst I do like male energy and perhaps one day will find someone who is not going to manipulate me or disrespect me in the way that the past N’s have, I do not feel as ‘driven’ to do this as I have in the past, prior to finding out what made me accept the N’s in my life in the first place. This has been a journey …and an incredible one at that!
If you should decide to end it Trisha, I am sure you will be fine, you are a strong, resourceful and caring woman. Build your life again from a place of inner wisdom and you will be so surprised at what support you find in the most incredible of places….least of all yourself!
Take care
HM
Thank you HM for the words of wisdom again!!! I do know hwt the right thing to do. I was thinking what the “hook” was about my N and I finally figured it out and that was the attention I receive when he is in the right frame of mind. My mom and dad were never affectionate, cuddling and hugs. When I meet my N he gave me the attention that I never got from anyone in my whole life. He filled that hole up and I crave that so much. That is why I was able to forgive the bad becasue I knew he would again be okay and give me what I craved at least for a little while, until the next blow up. That being said it makes me feel like a loser. Just how do I fill that hole up without hurting in the end and hurting my daughter. There are nice men that can be kind without paying a price later, isn’t there??? You are right about the counselor and her advice. I would think that she would want the N to get better before just tying another new person on for size and seeing how that goes. When he told me what she said, it made me feel like I was the problem after all and someone new would produce different results. Do they get along better with someone different, someone who would react differently?
I look for your responses, they mean so much.
Trisha
I find myself back in conflicts which I dont feel were started by me but are issues to my wife and how
SHE would have done things of solved something.There always seems to be a better way than mine to solve a problem or do just about anything so that if something isn’t done then there is a issue and if it is done the issue is how it was done and possibly why it wasnt done earlier.
by answering any of the ??????????? I put myself in the positon of having to answer to her about her issues and have the pleasure of listening to all of her feelings and how messed up I am.
I find that when I try and explain why..or how I did something the answer in never accepted but ?’d and turned into something she gives her opinion on and then asks why it wnas’t done right.
I have mentioned that I am not built like her and never will be…there are other parts of me which she chooses NOT to look at which leaves only part of me to judge all of me…really fair and supportive.
She askes why she has to tell me things and how to do things and my response is that she wants to tell me…I didn’t ask for her input. This is answered with if she doesn’t tell me then it will be done wrong. From her we go to the other side and I am told she is sick of being my mother and I should be an adult and act like one….well it seems difficult
to be wrong on wither side of the coin and never really get a feeling of moving forward and being part of a team.
I do not do everything correctly and have some issues in thinking ahead but there is an attempt to plan things out and get things done.
Lately I have noticed that my wife projects things that might happen due to an action and proceeds to find a solution to a problem that hasn’t happened yet. I find this very annoying and time consuming.Most everying discussed with her has ???? and leads back to issues she finds hard to deal with and usually ends in some sort of problem. If I mention I am going somewhere she says that I can wait till another time..or I dont’ need to go there…or why didn’t I go there last week or anything but O.K. To discuss any further is looked upon as starting and arguement and the race is on.
It is very hard to surpress all these feelings because you know that they will never be understood and that to much of her time would be taken up by listening and accepting things.
She is so sure of her self that even when she makes a statement that is proven to be incorrect she will stand by it and tell me to drop it..ot so big deal I jmade a mistake. HOWEVER when to shoe is on the other foot the entire history of my mistake making is brought up in detail and links to all other crimes are accessed. I am told to stop acting like a child when I ? why the situation is so different when it is she who makes the mistake. MY issue is hwo the scale is always tipped in her favor and when it isn’t it s turned somehow to get it there.
I relaize that every relationship is give and take BUT the scale should be balanced…not all on one side.
I have made some progress thanks to reading and listening to all and also to myself but feel for every plus the mountian of minus only grows.
I know by taking things into my own hands things become easier and not to FALL into being all that she likes and is and the constant effort to please HER and not myself.
Enough for now..peace and strenght to all
john
Hi again Trisha
Please do not beat yourself up about all this, you are not to blame for any of this! You need to take charge of your own life now and take your power back that you have given him in the past.
It is good that you have realised where you think you have been coming from in respect of what you were saying about you think you were hanging on to him because of the good times.. the times when he was loving and affectionate because you felt you were deprived of that in your childhood and upbringing. At least that allows you to bear witness to that and also will enable you to see when you have been in that situation… it means that when you next encounter that same situation arising and not necessarily with this man for instance but in any relationship, even with your daughter, you will be able to work with that knowledge in a more proactive way to heal yourself and stop that reactive behaviour in yourself.
However, don’t go blaming yourself now or your parents for not giving you that. There will be other reasons too I am sure why you ‘allowed’ him to treat you disrespectfully .. we all have done that, every single one of us, otherwise we would not be blogging here, we would have all kicked them to touch years ago and have nothing to share except survival stories. Now though what we are offering to each other is advice based on our experiences and invaluable support. We all know what we could do differently or better, we also all know what they could do differently if they only wanted to change.
The only way for you now Trisha is up and up and up! Remember this… – Iyanla Vanzant’s quote – People come into our life for a reason, a season or a lifetime.. how long they are here for or for what reason, we do not know. But in staying where you are not happy, you are keeping not only yourself from your blessing, but the other person from theirs too. So perhaps now is the time to let it go and find your peace and solitude, learn about yourself in a deep and meaningful way, accept yourself, warts and all, know that your lack of knowing what to do sometimes is not failure. Read whatever books you can on the subject of self help and self awareness .. CD has mentioned many over the last several months that I have read or know about or plan to read. Read Women Who Love Too Much, I have heard great things about this book and am going to read it also.
I think Trisha you have reached a point where you are seeing more of yourself than you have been aware of before. Perhaps now with this insight into why you ‘feel’ that you were attracted to your N.. re the lack of affection you had when growing up etc… this will stand you in excellent stead.. in a really good place to start to rebuild your life. Take time out for you (self soothe) and also for you and your daughter, get yourself into a place of internal healing, use the hypnotherapy downloads on here for co-dependence, they are very good. I have only listened to them a couple of times so far and felt almost instantly better about things and it was as if I could finally see things in a clearer way. I am sure you will also.
I know things seem insurmountable now and you feel you really cannot see the wood for the trees, you cannot imagine a life without him perhaps? If you are thinking of ending it, I know you are a lot stronger than you give yourself credit for and remembering understanding why you were hooked to him, is half the problem solved for you as you now ‘unhook’ yourself from the hold he has on you.
Your daughter’s is paramount here and you must protect her, she deserves that much at least from you. You are here to protect her and nurture her until she is old enough to fly the nest and live independently. We all, as parents, do that to the best of our ability but it is at times like this that we really have that love tested and proven.
There are no guidebooks on how to be the best parent… all we can do is follow our instinct sometimes. I know your instinct as her mother is to protect your child. Do this now and whilst she is still young enough to recover from this. She must come first now Trisha! Do not underestimate the power of her love for you as her mother, she is looking to you now for protection and reassurance. She sees this man doing this to you and as I have said in the past, what lessons are you teaching her about that? I am darned sure you do not want her to ever be going through what you are now with an N in her life for instance, nor do you want her to grow up and not feel that her mother was there for her when she most needed her. You have a divine opportunity now in your lap to make real headway and change how she views the world.
Also to you and to anyone else reading this – do not underestimate just how much strength you all have! We are capable of recovering from almost anything, our bodies and minds are much more resilient than we give them credit for. Use that birth given strength and power now to improve your lives.. if you don’t no one else will!
Love and light to you all
HM
HM,
You mentioned in your last posting about not seeing the N traits early in the relationship. I actually did. I was in residency when out relationship began and did have a few conversations with my supervisors about remarks he made etc .. ie criticizing me for not smiling/laughing enough and how this was really a reflection of his insecurity ( and cultural/socio-economic differences as I have learned later in life.) I recognized the good and the bad in my husband, and the N traits in myself led me to believe I could manage the bad, could help him to get past his insecurities from his childhood etc. etc. Unfortunately time has worn on me, and his behaviors wax and wane. I still believe I can make it work, and he has moments of insight …but there are very hard points.
Recently I have come crashing into my own N traits a bit too … which my husband has not missed pointing out to me. I have always valued providing for my patients what then seemed to need (to the best of my abilities and judgement) Early in my career I was a bit judgemental about people who took short cuts, did “just enough,” or focused more on the documentation than on the care. Well … life and time responsibilities got me to taking a few too many shortcuts on the documentation which has ired the bureaucratic system in which I work. I have hurt my patient’s care, not by my lack of effort with them, but by making it more difficult for the system, when I need that support in order to provide them care. It has been a hard pill to swallow.
CD,
I do remember that audio of Kim’s and the passage about parenting and running a kitchen. I chuckled when I read it. Sometimes I know I handle things better, and sometimes I see that I am allowing his view of me as inadequate to become the reality. There are also those times when I know that I’m getting frustrated, or have made a mistake and I need to be better able to let him help without feeling it is an absolute reflection of my worth (regardless of what gets said
I’ll go re-read that transcript again. The newest posting (verbal abuse #6) seems pretty good too.
In terms of judging others by their refrigerators … I’m quite sure my husband does not go inspecting refrigerators, but he does judge on the cleanliness of their cars, and firmly believes others judge him as well. He will point one out to the boys and ask if that is the car of a successful person, or is that the car of someone they would like to be. (He is not a role model for keeping his own space decluttered) The ambassadors, and university presidents (work related) may always have their cars meticulous, and yes it would send a message of disorganization if they were sloppy. I wonder sometimes about those with young kids … like Michelle Obama, or the new PM of England
Do toys, drink bottles and puzzle books get left in their chauferred autos? It has been tough for me to keep the systems in place to keep our family van other than “tolerable.”
On a good side … we did go to the beach for a few days – all of us … one of the best holidays we have had in some time. I’m learning some ways to diffuse the remarks that push at my insecurities and I’m better at not letting my husband’s remarks (when mean outside things are bothering him) hurt me so much … not always, but more often than before joining this site. I don’t think the change is just one sided either.
MR
John,
Again I understand what you are describing … and you have advised me not to get pulled in to the corrections and unwanted advise. Remember that … it is good advise. your particular retort here is one I will file in my brain. “She askes why she has to tell me things and how to do things and my response is that she wants to tell me…I didn’t ask for her input.”
“I do not do everything correctly and have some issues in thinking ahead but there is an attempt to plan things out and get things done.
Lately I have noticed that my wife projects things that might happen due to an action and proceeds to find a solution to a problem that hasn’t happened yet.”
I can relate to this. My husband, generally a pretty level headed person can really catastrophize about some concerns. Y2K was right after we were married, and he was all worked up with strategies and contingency plans. We lived in Washington DC, right by the US capitol when the Pentagon and NYC were hit. He was less distraught about that, but now reads AlJazeera and other primary news sites from the middle east and Israel on an almost daily basis (because of the potential bias of US news) He has cycles of fears of total financial collapse and rioting on our streets … again perhaps real but slim possibilities, but I’m not sure it is worth the effort. I can be careful, but I too respond better to solving problems rather than seeing them ahead of time. This is why I don’t see myself ever trying to run a business.
These are the big examples, there are many small ones, and the anxiety behind it is more the issue. The behaviors are inconsistent, as you know. It cycles … that is all I can tell you
MR
I have just finished reading your e-book, and found it informative. However, I do have a question for you.
My husband has had numerous affairs, some real, some emotional and I can always tell when it starts to happen, again.
I know that you mentioned finding out where he is getting ego stroked and by whom, but my husband works in a different city from where we live and I have no contact with his work companions, or even know who they are. It is almost like he has 2 separate lives and one will never overlap into the other.
I cannot check the cell phone log as I have been locked out. His phone is pass word protected so if he gets an incoming call or message no information pops up.
The counselor told me that things would never change due to his NPD. So, not being able to find his source, what would be your recommendation. Confrontation is not an option, tried that and failed.
Thank you, Michelle
I think this is going to be very difficult as things stand. Please check out the radio show here: http://www.globaltalkradio.com/streamer.php?show=lovesafetynet/lovesafetynet_2009aug31.mp3 Called a double life. I also think that you may need to hire a PI to find out exactly what it is he is up to so that you are out of the dark and have some leverage. Don’t obsess about it – you get on with your own life while you make plans to find out what his double life is about.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
I am new to the discussion and have been in a relationship with a strong, brilliant, beautiful woman who is narcissist. Like all partners in these realtionships, a book can be written of our story. Pages are added daily and weekly.
It is refreshing to see a commitment to those relationships with narcissists that can work with work.
There is alot of wisdom in running due to constancy and weight of the lies, infidelity, crazymaking, gaslighting and projection and rages. However, one size does not fit all.
I am in the thick of the relationship and once again am in the place where it just may be too much. My partner is a master at this. Though I have read that narcissists are unable to love, I am not sure this is perfectly accurate.
It is a personal decision to leave or stay, I know. The craziness in just the past three days in my case would make most run. The return on investment in the relationship does not the wise investor make. I usually do not give up. I have a huge capacity to love her, with the aim of not losing myself in the process. That dilemma faces us partners a great deal.
Well, no specific questions right now. Just some musings.
Kim and Steve,
Thank you for all the information, but sadly it comes too late. My husband has been cheating, emotionally and physically, for the last 11 years that I know of. Tonight, I found more pictures of him and another woman together and the hurt, betrayl, anger I felt lasted a few hours. I am lied to daily and then I am blamed for his bad behavior.
I see no other way to maintain my own self respect and to stop being hurt in the process other than to divorce him.
I can’t continue to be wife, mom, ego booster and Sherlock Holms anymore. I’m exhausted. I just don’t understand why he never choose to leave if he was getting whatever he needed elsewhere.
I am drained and emotionally spent.
Dear Kim and Steve,
Thank you for all the information you have made available, but sadly I believe it to be too late.
After 15 years of marriage and multiple other women and lies, I’m drained.
I will take the blame for all in our relationship, I just don’t have it in me to fight anylonger. I don’t understand why another human being would or could be so intent upon pulverizing another. Wouldn’t it just make more sense to leave?
I cannot continue to be wife, mom, nurse, and Sherlock Holmes anymore. I have never in my life felt so devoid of emotion and lack of caring. My self respect is in major need of an overhaul.
Afew weeks ago we had a discussion about my mental health and I made an apt. w/ my PCP. It was decided that I should go for some neurological testing and see wht was up.
By doing this I believed that it would not noly help me but show some listening and that I can take a suggestion and follow thru with it to completion.
I put this on our calander 3 weeks ago and brought it up on tues. evening mentioning the appt. was thurs. a.m.. the first responce was uugghh…this thursday???????? The doctor requested a family member to be present for the first hour of ?????????? incase I forgot any of the details and medical issues.
Instead of feeling for me it felt like it was an inconvience due to the HOT weather. I mentioned I didnt know what she would do for the other two hours and the response was it is only your mother and father…just write everything down…you can handle it…as in she would stay home. After thinking about all the times I have been there for her in good and bad I got upset in the lack of support and understanding of and for me. Wed. morning I went into the bedroom and supposededly woke her up to say how unfair I thought it was considering how many times I had been there for her without ANY thought of myself and my time….her response was “you woke me up to tell me that(?). I left for work and came home to be asked what time the appt. was. I said that she wasn’t going…didn’t want to go from the get-go and theat was it…I’d take care of it myself.
I was ??????d as to why I made the statement in the morning and responded those were my feelings and I had a right to tell them to her. She insisted she was going and I said I was not a yo-yo yes one minute and no the next. An arguement started and escalated as to why I said the comment in the morning istead of the previous evening..and so on. She told my to go to hell and get out of her life…she was not standing for this anymore(?)
She mentioned it wasn’t right to SPRING this on her with short notice and that I didi not write it on the calendar..and challlenged me to prove I did. MY responce was not a challenge but a statement saying that if she was SURE then I did not write it down. Whe told me I was n ot sleeping in HER bed and ther5 would be no more discussion. I went to the calendar and found I HAD written down the dates as requested…without saying anything I brought the calendar into the room and left it for her to see. To bed I went.
This morning I awoke to her in the bathroom getting to go…she did not mention that she was mistaken r/e the calender and offer any sort of addimission of fault…instead she asked how she ws supposed to read the info due to the fact that I wrote it so small. AMAZING…still my fault…the fight continued and had more anger to the point where she said she wasn’t going and to leave her alone. I said I was upset that all of the issues from the night before were fabricated to have a fight and the fact was she was wrong. Had it been inreverse everything would have been a huge issue. She finally said…o.k I’ll give you that you wrote it down……..GIVE ME??????????? how do you figure that one? I got ready and left for the testing…its done and the results will be in at the end of the month…another day …another situation.
when I am at falut its hard enough to accept the blame but when I am not its unbearable to have to fight to prove I am right.
Thanks for reading…I will stay in touch
good health and peace to all
john
How do i know if these techniques will work on my husband? Are there certain criteria that determine whether he will respond positively to the fill in parenting. My situation is one where 99% of my offers for help are declined and used against me, no physical violence but continuous emotional and psychological abuse. I can see alot faster when its happening, but cant point it out to him everytime or hardly even at all cause he just blows at most topics involving him having to be accountable for his actions and causing me har. I’ve had the course since October of last year and it has helped me personally in a big way, but very small glimmers of progress for the other. Dont they have to want help in order for it to really work?
I guess you can’t really know – when I was going through this I had no idea either and I had everyone telling me there was no hope. I was very determined however and I think that is necessary. One way you can look at it is this … As long as you see your partner as an insurmontable opposing force and yourself the victim of their stubbornness – the dynamic will probably never change. If you step out of victim mode however and see yourself as a solid and capable adult – capable of calling in outside help and agencies to hold them accountable for their actions when you need to and not scared of letting them face the consequences of their own irresponsibilty, things will have to change. NLP teaches a very useful lesson about this and it is that people will basically play victim, rescuer or aggressor (I may have this third one wrong) anyway what will happen is that people will often fight for one role. With someone with NPD they will always win at trying to paint themselves the victim because they will do anything including not playing fair. So if you step out of any of these roles (and particularly victim) and just be the observer – or perhaps play the role of parent sometimes (if they need to say no to someone and can’t for instance) then there is no more fighting over victim status. When this happens the dynamic has to change.
Working on your own emotional reactions and skills at pulling in support will increase you strength and ability to step out of this role and see that you are NOT the victim, you are in fact much stronger emotionally and much more disciplined and responsible than they are.
Once you stop seeing yourself as victim you will also get stronger about pulling in support and calling their games. What is the double life? Do you have the courage to talk to their boss about their drug use and let it lose them their job? Are you calm enough to let your minister know about their pornography addiction? Are you brave enough to talk calmly to their doctor about your concerns about how they are talking to and treating the kids? These are all just examples obviously, but you need to be out of victim mode completely to win this war. I got the police involved and had Steve sacked from his job but I didn’t play victim with anyone – if I had it would have just made him mad and people would have seen it as a fight between us and no one would have helped. As it was I played it how it was – me as the strong sensible one and me concerned about Steve’s behavior and how he was hurting HIMSELF. I was also honest that I could not deal with him on my own but my own presence of mind and concern for him convinced people they could safely get involved and help.
I didn’t know this at the start and that is why it took me over 10 years. The first glimmer of this came when I visited the local police station crying and distressed and they just asked if I wanted to visit the psych hospital. After that one of the policemen from the station told me to never be upset when I talked to the police again because it wouldn’t help. He said I had to be in charge of myself or the police wouldn’t help me. He said that may not be right but it is just the truth. He taught me other stuff too about being tougher and stronger and not letting Steve push me around. It worked too. Steve fought back at first but when he saw I wasn’t going to play victim anymore but I was going to stand up for myself and wasn’t scared of talking to people about his shameful behavior and could do it in a way people were going to listen he liked it. He finally knew he was safe.
So he lost his job and I said he had to learn how to take care of the house without bossing us around. I even got his employment agency off his back and told them the truth that he was not ready for another job he had ‘gaps’ at home he needed to work on. I didn’t play victim but I also did not wait for him to agree to what was happening. He didn’t have any choice when he lost his job. A few months after I spoke with his manager they sacked him. When I spoke to his employment agency I didn’t even tell him I was going. I was terrified and surprised when that made him happy. That was when I first started to see the light about the pressure that was causing him to act this way. I didn’t know he would like that. I thought he would be really mad but I did it anyway because it was the truth.
I didn’t ask for any help from these people for myself and I didn’t cry of say anything about how it was affecting us – I just talked about my concern for Steve. Obviously they probably guessed that it was hard for us but I wasn’t playing the victim card and so they didn’t have to worry that they were taking sides. They could see I cared about him and it wasn’t about us fighting. It was about Steve’s behavior. That is the trick – you need to keep the focus on that and be brave enough to call it what it is. Not narcissism but the terms people will understand – alcoholism, child abuse, drug addiction, porn addiction, embezzlement, adultery, gambling addiction world of war craft addiction or even romance novel addiction (this is a bad one for the girls). The list goes on and on. If you don’t know what their fantasy life is built on you need the courage to find out and take it on. I told Steve that he was welcome with us and would always be accepted and safe with us – but his false pride that thought he could put us down and fantasize he was someone he wasn’t was going to come down and that I was it’s avowed enemy to the very end. I said it – the arrogant guy has to go or I will expose and destroy him – but you can stay! It was amazing for him when he realized all he had to do was surrender and admit he was scared and needed help to be accepted. Everyone else wanted a lot more than that from him. It took about 6 months but suddenly he realized he was home and he didn’t have to pretend about anything for me to care about him. Inside all along he had been so scared and vulnerable but it took a long time till he could let it show.
Kim Cooper
http://www.fightbusters.com
I am often struggling with the question of am I the problem, am I being unreasonable, am I doing something wrong. To reflect on what Jennie said recently “ I have no idea if it was my ex-husband or me who had narcissim. I see myself as the N in so many of these stories and him as the N also. Is it possible that we both were.”
I can relate to most everything you said in your posting – verbatum. “ I always felt on the defensive, never knowing when the next blow up fight would happen. I would walk on egg shells until I would feel enough is enough. I would become explosive and violent (aggressive)” The rage can frighten me now, because I have displayed it in front of my three little boys for which I feel very remorseful, because you can’t explain and apologize it away.
I could recount the events of the past few days, during which my stress i up and my tolerance is down for some reasons; and my husbands stress/provoking is high for reasons I really don’t know. The details I am just writing in my personal files, but clearly his increased jabs and criticisms of me are not at all about the actual faults or mis-deads that are being pointed out to me. I was reflecting on this as I was watching my boys playing and I was thinking about the principles of counter-transference … how in a therapeutic relationship the other party can project on to you their feelings. (To understand this – think of how frustrating it can be to try and soothe a frustrated but minimally verbal toddler … you are feeling how they feel) Is this how narcissists get us to behave in ways that are as juvenile as they ( and then they can blame us and we feel guilty because we do not like how we behaved.) I need to try and keep this in my mind, in the moment of a building interrogation when I am feeling defensive. When my husband is making me feel stupid and incapable and confused that this is how he is feeling, and he is projecting onto me (not that he is aware of this) … when he is getting me to feel like I am not a capable parent, he may be having those feelings for some reason. When he accuses me of being scattered and disorganized, he has probably messed up something, etc. etc. I don’t know how broadly this idea will hold but it is my target to explore over the next few days.
It certainly can suck me in to feeling like I am the one with the problem and I am the one who is flawed and needs to walk away. A word of caution though … there is more value and benefit in figuring out how to appropriately respond to and diffuse the provoking spars, than in trying to understand and reflect on what is behind the remarks.
HM … your thoughts on this?
Also glad to hear that your professional work has improved too, because I also feel like EVERYTHING is affected when I am constantly worrying about my relationship. I really had no time for anything else. As you said, I too cringe now when I think of the hours I have spent trying to make sense of what seemed unbelievable behaviour in someone that I loved so deeply. I know my recent mistakes at work were not caused by him, but were compounded by the drain of my relationship on my functioning, and this is also true if I look at some missed opportunities over the past 10 years. Not that I would have taken every one, or that having focused better on an academic career would have been sustainable with 3 boys, but I did not complete some things I wanted to because of interpersonal garbage (again not all my husband, but part.) I’m still trying to figure out an new professional image (who I want to be), but at least I am finding some energy to do so.
MR
Hi MR,
I have been on the hop the last few days with no real time to touch base with anyone – I was so pleased to hear that you and your hubby and boys spent a few days at the beach and had a good time – the beach is one of my favourite places for fun and self-soothing – fantastic carefree therapy! Such occasions are great opportunities to build rapport with your husband – to say things like “You know, I really enjoyed our time together at the beach with the boys for those few days – I hope we can all do that again sometime.” (Then make sure you do get away again – hopefully with your hubby – but just you and the boys if he can’t get away. Kim made a life for her and her kids – and Steve eventually realised he was missing out and caught up with them).
I found your contemplation about counter-transference a very valid one – it is true – that the narcissist projects upon you qualities or insecurities that are found within them that they are either aware or unaware of. You might not remember, but I wrote to you once I think under “Who Will They Turn To” about when the finger of accusation gets pointed at you that there are three fingers pointing back towards the accuser.
Try it now – point your finger like you are pointing at someone – see how the other three fingers on your hand are pointing back towards you? So whenever your husband accuses you of being flawed in some way think of the three fingers pointing back towards him – that the flaw exists within him – only three times more than it exists within you!
When I first illustrated this to my husband it stopped him in his tracks for a while – and it still works whenever I use this “metaphor” (I suppose you would call it that) on him. Humorously my husband sometimes uses the metaphor now on other people!
I really would not be too concerned about whether you are a narcissist or not – I think we all have a certain level of unhealthy narcissism within us. The difference is that we are all here seeking help – and for that reason we are not in denial about needing help (whether it is for narcissism, co-dependency or both – I see very little difference between them in respect to neither of them living as their authentic selves).
The person who believes they are superior to others (by way of blaming, criticism, put-downs, abuse, etc) need help the most, but they are not usually the one who first seeks help, and they are even less likely to invest so much time and energy in seeking help and working on themselves – unless they are strongly compelled to do so – because (as the victim) it easier to blame you and the rest of the world for their difficulties and bad behaviour instead of confronting their own shame and false-pride.
I think both of our husbands suffer badly from paranoia, obsessiveness and anxiety. Please correct me if I am wrong – does this explain their huge and excessive need for control (even though in reality we have very little or no control over what happens)? That if they “control” everything and everyone around them then it “calms” these uncomfortable feelings in them even for the tiniest amount of time? Is it that they have never learned how to self-soothe by themselves in a healthy way? Or is it just plain bad habit and arrogance? Or all of the above and perhaps more?
Either way I believe my husband has no right to take my inventory, and I have no right to take his (as I may have just done).
I am seeing things through much clearer eyes now though, and – just when I thought I might be making some progress – I witnessed an episode of my husband’s false pride in full flight the other day. It illustrated to me how what Lisa Charlebois said is so true – that a narcissist cannot tolerate any perceived or real threat, criticism, shame or embarassment.
What my husband did instead of accepting accountability for something he had done was to immediately verbally abuse the other person, and to instantly draw on his bottomless pit of a “memory bank” for a past “trespass” by that person against him, and to hurl that trespass back into the person’s face (defeat by transferance of guilt!). The person retreated – another narcissistic rage had won yet again – an unfortunate unhealthy reinforcement of “power & control” to my husband. Ultimately though my husband LOST because the problem still exists simply because he won’t accept accountability or responsibility due to his emotional stupidity and false-pride!
The extreme hostility was such that I have experienced countless times over the last 35 years – God only knows how much he has stored in his “memory bank” about me – and that is what I fear the most to have to deal with if ever we parted ways (another control he has had over me which I have yet to override???). While my self-worth is at a reasonably healthy level – I do not relish having to deal with relentless hostility, criticisms and put-downs – and if I left him then he would make me “pay” dearly for that humiliation – and he is not likely to leave me even though he threatens to from time to time because of his own set of fears or need to control.
It is a good sign if you are starting to get some energy and focus back. Do you do any meditation or Yoga, etc? My daughter is getting great relief from anxiety and incredible focus & calm through meditation – she is new at it but cannot praise it highly enough – she has three young children too – and her husband has suffered some brain damage from long term untreated epilepsy in the short term memory part of his brain – so she has been very stressed in learning how to adjust to what seems like four children now – difficult and depressing for hubby too! I hope you will be feeling even stronger next time we hear from you.
Good luck and stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Hi,
I just found this website yesterday and I am very grateful I did. I have come to realize that my husband is most likely a narcissist as was my first husband (although my first husband is also a bit sociopathic).
Everything I have read or learned about narcissism suggests that if you find you have a narcissist in your life run far and run fast. I have kept searching because I don’t believe there is “no hope”. I am so grateful to have found this website and I just downloaded the workbook and back from the looking glass. I am looking forward to a new happier chapter in my live.
Jenette
Hello CD,
Thank you for your encouragement. This relationship has had me in turmoil since it has began. It is very unstable and has no restraints to how ugly it can get. I thought when I divorced David that it would just be over, he has since found more than one new girlfriend. I wish I could let him go, and I could just walk away. If I stay I become a monster and if I go I don’t feel right about it. I need to let him go for the both of us, I just don’t know how to tell him goodbye. I still love him, and I still want to make it work. I am crazy to love him and I am even crazier to want to make it work with him. My oldest daughter hates him and calls him names. If anyone mentions his name, she goes off. She asks me why I love someone who obviously doesn’t love me. My daughter saw him holding and kissing another woman. She confronted him about it, and told him it was wrong. I hurt so bad, and I just feel so alone. Why can’t I see he is not the one and leave him alone. Why am I obsessed with him? I went to his apt the other day and things just didn’t go right. When I am with him, I turn into some kind of monster. I am needy, clingy, psycho, emotional, uneasy, fake, and aggressive when I am around him. I am definately not stable with him. I feel myself fanasizing about him accepting me and being inlove with me, however it just goes wrong. How do I let go and accept he doesn’t love me. I can’t keep having my heart broken over and over again. I am so hurt and I can’t run back to him to have him stab me in the heart. I want to be strong enough to let go because if I don’t I will lose myself.
Jennie,
I really think you need to find out how to love yourself. Spend some time making yourself happy. Do some of the things you used to love to do before your N made himself the center of your world. Take some time to appreciate the beautiful person you are and once you do that you can make better rational decisions. Eat healthier foods, get some excercise, put on your best outfit and some makeup. Realize you are loveable and wonderful. Take care of you and then the strong person you are can make healthy decisions for you.
Best of luck
Jenette
I have a question about building a support network. It seems as though (not surprisingly) I have become so isolated over the past five years. I am a normally very social person but find I have few friends now and prefer not to have people over because of the potential embarrassment my husband may cause, particularly toward my 11 year old daughter from a previous relationship.
There are two ladies from my church that stop by every month for a short visit. He hates it saying I should be cleaning house. That is his pat response to anything…..”get this house cleaned up”. It seems to be a mantra every time he sees me or my daughter….get this house cleaned up “totally and completely”. Anyway, he is very resistant to me having any friends or family for that matter over to our home. When we first married, I frequently had barbecues and family dinners, now I cringe at the thought because of the potential bad behavior. It is like having a child I don’t want to take out in public (yes I don’t like taking him there either). It seems like he pushes just the right buttons and I end up being the one yelling and looking like a fool.
Sorry, I digress, how do I overcome his insecurities with me having friends/support?
Any thoughts would help.
Thanks
Jenette
Hi Jennie,
Many of us have come here desperately seeking help for the emotionally exhausting confusion, despair and anxiety we have suffered by living with and loving a Narcissist. We have experienced how the suffering can be so overwhelming, but instead of letting go of the relationship we are seduced by a compelling urge within us to not let go. We may have become completely self-sacrificing and try to “fix the problem” which we believe is “the Narcissist”. In becoming so completely self-sacrificing in trying to “fix the problem” we become seriously co-dependent and that is the part of us that is causing most if not all of our own problems. You see we cannot “fix” another person – we can only “fix” ourselves and learn how to protect ourselves with healthy boundaries and assertiveness.
This does not excuse the Narcissist from taking responsibility for their own emotional insecurities and immaturity and bad behaviour – which they are either blind to their own shortcomings, or too full of false-pride and stubbornness to change without compelling reason to do so (but that is what you will learn about here in Kim & Steve’s program).
What you may be feeling right now in reality may not true love – it may be fantasy love – and if you want true love (with this man or with someone else) then you must first let go of the fantasy and get in touch with reality.
Jenette is right – inside of you is a beautiful person and right now you must become your own hero and focus on finding yourself again, and learn to love and accept yourself and to look after yourself as a priority.
Finding, accepting and loving your authentic self is what truly makes you attractive to others (including the Narcissist). As you work through Kim and Steve’s program you will come to understand why the Narcissist craves a strong and honest person in their life – and why wouldn’t they – don’t we all want that?
The insidious part about being in a dysfunctional relationship (whether together or apart) is that guilt, blame, self-pity and resentment are just a few of the toxic and destructive mindsets we develop – whether we are the Narcissist or the Co-dependent or both. These mindsets or triggers are constantly close to the surface – and may have existed within us even before we met the Narcissist about whom we have come here for help.
While suffering from these toxic mindsets we (as a matter of survival) become defensive (including offensive or aggressive behaviour) and controlling and even manipulative. We also suffer from embarassment and shame, and can even become isolated from our friends, family and potential new and healthy relationships in our lives.
Many other areas of our lives can be affected too – such as our ability to perform to our full potential in our recreational pass-times and the workplace, etc – all because we become so obsessed, confused and lost in trying to make things “right” in our dysfunctional relationship.
As you work your way through Kim and Steve’s program you will find that there is so much to do – on yourself – for YOURSELF. You will learn to take a much different approach to the world in which you are living – and the more you work their program – the more personal emotional maturity, strength and freedom you will be rewarded with.
You will learn how to protect yourself and your children from unacceptable behaviour, and you will learn how to overcome your own unacceptable behaviour – replacing it with emotionally stable and clear thinking behaviour – something which the Narcissist also craves from you – but will constantly test you about – your commitment to yourself and what you stand for – your beliefs and your moral ethic, your honesty and your valour. He will test you because somewhere along the way he has learned that it is “safer” for him not to trust or attach to anyone.
If you make the choice to do all the work that is required to recover from where you are right at this time, then in addition to Kim and Steve’s material I would suggest that you seek counselling for your co-dependency and – if available – enter a 12 step program such as Co-dependents Anonymous if you have a group near you (go to http://www.coda.org) to find your nearest available group).
I honestly can’t imagine how much harder the process would have been for me had I not had many years of recovery through the 12 step program I was in called Al-Anon (which is for the friends and relatives of someone who may have a drinking problem). As I have read what you have written it took me back to a time when both my husband and I were out of control – and unfortunately it has left life-long emotional and psychological scars on our children (who have now grown and flown).
The work I have done has been rewarded in many ways within my relationship over the years – and I can recognise the different forms of narcissistic behaviour now for what it is – and respond accordingly (which is different to reacting in an emotionally out-of-control way).
The most reward however is having the courage to be my own person and not to give up on myself to a frequently emotionally unstable person. I do not have immediate plans to leave my marriage, but I am prepared mentally and emotionally to let go if that is what is best for me – that needy and clingy person I used to be is gone – and my husband has stopped threatening to leave me – he actually is very afraid of losing me. For many years now I have not been afraid to be on my own and to live my life on my own. I love people and I will never be truly alone. I did however suffer great loneliness in my co-dependent days – even when my husband was in the same room as me. Like Jenette I also am often afraid of having friends and family visit because of my husband’s emotional unpredictability – he doesn’t even have to throw an obvious tantrum – he can tantrum by way of his body language and vibrations – or he tries to take over and become the centre of attention by becoming the life of the party or the victim in one of his countless confabulations.
Many times my husband has attacked my self-worth by saying that I don’t have any friends (which I do) and that I don’t have friends over (well why would I subject my friends to his abuse?). My husband is paranoid about what others are thinking or saying about him – and I have come to a conclusion that that is why he makes my friends and family feel uncomfortable or unwelcome – that if I am isolated I cannot talk to anyone about him. My challenge is how to handle him under those circumstances while maintaining my right to have friends or family visit me comfortably in my own home. So I would welcome some advice on that too – maybe from Kim??
There is also just one more thing that I think is important to mention – and that is just like when someone you love dies – you will suffer grief from your loss. There is a sense of loss with divorce too – and therefore a grieving process to work through. The difference is that when someone dies that physical contact is gone forever, but with divorce – you may still have to be in contact where there are children involved, etc. So you may be finding some of your most painful emotions to deal with are linked with your loss and grief over ending your marriage with your ex – and that may be why you cannot let go easily. Kim has an audio on “Sadness” under The Love BoatCruise at http://www.thelovesafetynet.com – and visiting her other islands may help you too.
CD, Australia.
CD
Thanks so much for your words of wisdom. First, I have to tell a story…maybe a success?
This morning I woke before my family so, I made the coffee and I went out and weeded my garden for an hour….believe me an hour was not nearly enough but I am trying to just get some things done for me and not everyone else….(and that is for another topic entirely).
Much to my surprise upon my return the family was still sleeping so I proceeded to do a load of laundry, a load of dishes and make some scones for their inevitable wakefulness. Yet, they slept. I then proceeded to make some breakfast knowing my 20 yo son who is visiting before his duty begins for the Navy Seals would appreciate the grub and then I read some of the “Back from the looking glass” I was working on a blanket I promised the 20 yr old son I would have for him before he left at 9pm this evening when my N husband awoke.
He promptly told me that he was going to &&&&& a local restaurant to have breakfast as what I had prepared did not suit him. I said “OK go ahead” then he proceeded to tell me that our marriage just wasn’t working, he was tired and he was leaving me. I said cool, see ya later. He then left. I of course being my totally in control self proceeded to call him incessantly until he answered. …..no good……..awhile later……
We own a business so I told him he could not take the vehicle so he came home and proceeded to leave on foot. I grabbed my scandals and began walking with him. I said, “So where are we going?” He answered I don’t know. I told him he better figure it out because I was going with him and I was still in my jammies with no bra and I might be a bit of an embarrassment if he had someplace fancy in mind. I told him I was not leaving him even if he left and that I would stick with him while we both grew up a bit. It ended up with a laugh and him coming home asking me to prepare him some French toast. Later tonight he thanked me for the gesture.
Needless to say, that was a small victory in my day as there are numerous issues that happened otherwise but it is a victory for the day and I am willing to accept it.
I want to get this posted so I will continue in a bit or tomorrow.
Take care
Jenette
Hi Jenette,
What a beautiful little story – but such a powerful one too – it did my heart so much good! It is amazing how a touch of humour can bring a troubled loved one safely back to earth and home again – I admire your courage and determination showing him you love him and that will stick by him through all of this – that is the stuff of building trust and attachment.
I wonder if he is a bit like my husband who found it extremely difficult to say goodbye to our son when he left to work in another state. For weeks beforehand my husband hid behind all sorts of smoke screens concealing his anxiety and depression over it – but when it actually came time for my son to go – my big macho husband broke down and cried in the arms of our son! My son was extremely shocked (and so was I) because his father was always so hard on him and there had been many times when he was downright abusive towards him too (He is of the old school of “Bring ‘em up tough and don’t show ‘em any girly feelings or love stuff!”) What a shame he kept his true feelings secret for so long! I could write a book!
I hope you and your family stay safe,
Cheers
CD, Australia.
When I came home from work on thursday eve. after my appt. with the nerological dept my N said she appopogized for her actions of the morning. I said I heard the words and proceeded with going to bed. This did not sir well as I was told that she wanted this straightened out that evening. I said I was exhausted and ws going to bed.. an hour later I was able to do so. This apology DID NOT mention her statements r/e not sleeping with her in “her”bed…getting out of her life or the one stating that we were done.
All of these statements to me were serious and said in the middle of an arguement which shouldnt have happened. I was told that I could coemback to bed which I resented…I am not a yo-yo or a “husband at will” that can be told one thing and then another and accept both w/o some sort of????.MY response was I was not coming back to bed with her. This is an area in which I feel lost and confused and it shows… which gets the response that I dont know if I am coming or going.
Friday had no conversation and sat. p.m. was tense with a few comments made. Sunday morn I got up and told her I was going to a flea market and got a response “so we’re back to that…just telling me and not asking me.” My response was that I had been told to get out of her life and ??????d how else I was to handle things in the situation. She said…fine….THEN I will apologize for saying to get out of my life. I said how can this have statement have merit when the initial words were said four days earlier and had I not brought it up you never would have said anything which to me shows how little you really care about what you say and how much you hurt me deliberately. I have always been told that she means everything she says and never says anything which isn’t true…so how can I just let these statements go. I have read that this is letting her have control over me… however I believe she (as I) are responsible for our statements and need to let the other person know if they were just said in anger or are they true. By not clarifing this one person is never SURE and the other has a license to kill.
I was asked why I was doing this and answered I was not the one who made to statements and was doing what was asked of me. Another case of letting go and seeing that in her mind this is not right either. The game is to control at all costs and have no survivors. IT stinks.
Sunday night I asked if we wanted to eat and I thought I would go out for a little it to play some music…this was greeted with its Sunday night and we spend sundays together. MY response was I was told we were “done” so how could we do that?!?
This brought on a huge rage where she kicked over a table…took some gifts I had given her(over the years) and threw them out and said it was over and she would show me how much she meant it.
I responded that she has made these statements and if they were not real she needed to tell me because I am not assuming anything or letting go of things I need clarified. She started to say “get out of my life” but caught herself and changed it to “get out of her face”.
I do not feel that I should ask if the statements made were true and by not clarifing she has been allowed to continue her actions while all along making sure I stay in line. When I have said something which has hurt her I have gone to her and apologied wethr or not she accepts it so she knows it was in anger and not a fact…and I think the reverse is fair.
PLease tell me if I am correct in my actions and how better to handle things to show strength and hope that she can see I will not tolorate all of this nonsense,
She made a statement to me that I should remember that I have no one else in this world and that she has her children..by means of saying I should be nice to her because of this fact…when I bought this up as a cruel statement and something which was used to have some power over me she said “well..it’s true” I said it was used to put fear in me so I would back down and become submissive to her ways.
Help me understand whats going on…now that we are to silence and it seems to be to only place that lasts.
thanks
john53
I see there is another john out there so I added 53 to keep us individual
Hi John,
I am not sure what you are hoping to achieve by pressing the issue with her. I understand that you were hurt by her actions but a big part of our program is learning to self soothe and get through your hurt without needing your partner to do things or say things to make it up to you. All the “you said I said” can get very tedious over time and can end up very childish if you are not careful. I know it feels like you will be walked all over if you forgive easily and get on with your life but really the opposite is true – it is much more important that you set real and solid boundaries for the future than hold grudges about what happened in the past.
I am not sure if you are following the advice in our books but if so it might pay for you to go back and have a review of the ideas that we suggest.
Hang in there (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Dear CD,
I just got through reading your letter and it touched something in me. I went to the CoDa website and found to my horror that most of those co-dependent traits, I own. Kinda depressing, but I need to get better. You are right, I’ve spend so much energy into trying to make my spouse own and take responsibility for the things he does and says and his behavior, that I’ve become a pro looking at him and have become blinded to what I’ve become.
All the lousy things I’ve said out of anger, hurt, betrayl and sheer frustration, all the empty threats etc… He points out to me endlessly how cruel my words are and have been (all without cause according to him).
The part of your letter that touched me the most was when you said you have no immediate plans to leave your marriage, but if the time comes, you are prepared mentally. That is where I want to be. I want to be at the point where I can say OK, so you don’t love me, big deal, I feel bad, but I will survive. Have a good life and enjoy.
But I see him consistently going out to make phone calls, texting all the time ( he is never without that stupid phone). I feel so disrespected in my own home, and I end up acting crazy and looking like I should be locked up. He never says anything, just gives me a look like that says I’m a lunatic. And at times, I really feel as if I’m the crazy one. Doing and saying nothing feels so wrong during these cases of active disrespect, but logical verbal communication isn’t an option either as he refuses to speak with me, (that is where the crazy part of me comes out).
I know the CoDa program will help me. Hopefully it will help me to come to the same area you have achieved, mentally and emotionally prepared for whatever comes my way.
Thank you,
Michelle
Hello,
I am very glad to come here and blog out my emotions and fears. I read so many of your post and they sound just like mine. I divorced my husband because I thought it would just end. He had found another girl and I was crazy. I can live with being crazy most of the time. I became the villain in his life. The sad part about all his cries for help is in most incidents he was telling the truth. I was unstable and violent. I am so hurt, and how do you tell someone who you know does not care you are hurt? What is the point of telling him, “you hurt my feelings.” I can self soothe, and I do. I don’t need him to feel happy for me to feel happy. I am tired of him hurting me. I am tired of his nasty little comments. Why do I go back to him, when he just enrages me? I am not afraid of the cops or losing anything. I know full well the consequences of my actions if I hurt him, I just don’t care. I told him he is in danger if he is with me and that I can’t seem to control these violent rages. Worse part is he provokes the violent rages. If I try to be happy and calm, he hates life. I don’t know, maybe this last incident will teach us both a lesson. I read the books, I have. How do you know when you are really done? How do you know when you have past the point of no return? I don’t want to lose everything, but then again I have lost everything. I have had the cops called. I spent a lot of time in a mental hospital. I have been on countless prescriptions, nothing works. Most the time I am filled with rage and hate. I have happy moments and life is okay. I can’t hurt him now, and I won’t. As long as we are away from each other things go back to normal and calm. However, I have this driving force that always brings me back to him. No matter how much I fight it. Maybe this time is different and we will walk away. I want to call and say I am sorry. I want to tell him everything will be okay. I am crazy to want do that because he drives me psycho. Why do I want to be with someone I can’t stand? I think maybe I am an okay person, but not with him. Plus he ask me not to call or come around, and I don’t want to be disrespectful. I am on the edge with him and I am torn. I don’t want to stay, but I don’t want to go. If I stay then I become violent and abusive and if he goes life goes back to normal and I feel this emptiness. An emptiness without him, why, he drives me nuts. How do I feel better about him being gone when that is what is best for both of us. I sound psycho, I feel pyscho. Please can anyone explain this crazy, messed up, pointless relationship to me.
KIm
I understand what you are saying and have self soothed many times before…these statements have become like “crying wolf” for her and are used at will for any reason.
I have no idea when this is really meant and when it is just hot air…thus the need for clarification as is expected when in reverse. I feel there are double standards and I am the one that has to adhere to rules set up by her…but the rules do not apply on her side.
If I am expected not to threaten…not control…and set limits as to what I will tolerate
where does the accountability of the situation come in?
I know all to well about the childish issue….it is always in some degree part of the fights. I try and stick to the subject and not wander to other areas as best I can.
BY not letting things slide am I standing up for myself and showing I will not tolerate these actions anymore or am I pushing a point.
I get tired of the cruel and demeaning statements that come out constantly…I try to walk away…I try to remain calm and everything doesn’t work…I never get on solid ground and need it so much.
When I got home yesterday she had cut up and shredded in strips a scarf which meant a lot to me that I had given her many years ago…also she broke a necklace and left them on my bed with a note stating these are shredded like what I have done to our marriage. Should I ignore these ways or say that actions speak louder than words?
I appreciate your input and with the help of this sight have felt more in control of situations in the past…but now feel somewhat confused and lost.
peace
john53
Kim,
I want to thank you for showing me the errors of my ways. Somewhere along the line of the last week or so I fell off my own wagon.
Since reading this site I have gained a new way of looking at things….heal yourself and plan what you will tolerate in the future…instead of trying to make the other person change. It is much less painful and a better use of my time to FOCUS on me and my life.
Thanks for the re-awakening!
in peace and hope
john53
Hmmm,
This is pretty tricky John but I do feel hashing over stuff may be a habit you need to break. It is OK to say how you feel certainly and also plan better comeback lines ahead of time that you can use in the moment. All of this is covered in The Love Safety Net Workbook and I think this will really help you. Standing up for yourself is something that needs to be done with actions (separating bank accounts, reporting aggressive behavior to the police) or in the moment (rehearsing better scripts) NOT by asking for apologies, blaming or criticizing as that will actually only weaken your position.
Hang in there (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Michelle,
It is a humbling experience when first we discover as a co-dependent how much work we have to do on ourselves in order to get things into perspective. But please try to stay positive and don’t allow depression to set in – forgive yourself (and your man) for just being fallible like the rest of us in the human race!
After a long period of recovery and growth in Al-Anon I learned how to love and respect myself again, and to get in touch with who I am. Being where I am at now allows me to be unafraid to live alone – I am my own best friend – and let’s face it – if my husband were to leave or to unfortunately die – then I would not have much choice but to live alone. Being able to let him go does not mean that I have turned into an “ice-princess” or that I do not love my husband – because I do love him. It just means that I love him and respect him enough to let him go to live his life as he chooses – especially if he does not love me or does not want to be with me anymore – and I would not resent him for being true to himself and truthful to me.
But whether or not I stay in the marriage I will continue to learn how to put healthy boundaries in place not only with my husband but others too. I have learned so much especially from Kim – her experience and insight is simply astounding. The powerful combination of Al-Anon and Kim & Steve’s program has in many ways had the effect of bringing my husband and I closer together instead of driving us apart as was happening in my co-dependent days. We still have conflict and setbackS, but conflict can be healthy and setbacks create opportunities for reflection and getting things into back perspective again. What I believe is that my husband – now near his mid 50’s – is finding it extremely difficult to cope with getting older – he has always been hyperactive, a hard worker and a good provider and businessman (although somewhat egotistical & tyrannical). I believe he is now burnt out from running a stressful business (alongside of me) since 1983. He does not want to slow down let alone retire because he is afraid of “losing it” mentally, physically and emotionally – but in many ways I think he already has. He has become very abusive towards many people – especially when he feels threatened, embarrassed or shamed by something they have done or said about him or to him – and I don’t know who to get help from about this because the incidents mostly happen when I am not there to witness it – but I have many people contacting me about his irrational and abusive behaviour.
Please, please take your time with Kim’s program and CoDA, etc and give yourself a chance to learn, absorb and live what is offered. If in your heart you don’t want to leave your relationship, or you simply don’t know what to do – then don’t make any rash decisions right now – doing nothing is still doing something. Important decisions such as leaving or ending a marriage or relationship should only be done when you are thinking clearly and rationally and have carefully considered everything that you possibly can (however if there is violence then you must take the immediate and appropriate action as Kim describes in BFTLG).
Kim and Steve’s program in conjunction with a reputable self-growth program (such as CoDA or a 12 Step Program) will provide you with new and healthy ways to deal with the difficulties in your life. You will also learn how to love, accept and respect yourself – and with a raised self-worth you will be able to take the stance of that “strong and caring nurse” giving the tough love that Kim talks about.
Above all remember that working Kim’s 4 Legged Stool (Attachment – Limiting Abuse – Emotional Intelligence – Developmental Gaps) in your relationship will become easier as you gain personal strength and growth in a 12 Step Program such as CoDA. Work on putting you 4 legged stool solidly together – any healing and growing you do through CoDA will strengthen your Emotional Intelligence which is one leg of the four legged stool. You will be amazed after a time how good it feels to find your centre and your sense of self (again). Sarah Chambers audios, and Daniel Goleman’s book on Emotional Intelligence are also fantastic to help you find your inner strength and peace while living in a reparative relationship.
There is an Al-Anon slogan “Let it Begin with Me” which always springs to my mind whenever my husband is being unkind towards me, or me towards him.
Aesop’s Fable about “The North Wind and The Sun” also reminds me how to help my husband overcome his defensiveness – by first dropping my own defensiveness – and for me to lead the way by being the first one to show kindness and humility toward him.
The Fable goes like this: “The North Wind and The Sun challenged each other as to which could first remove the cloak of a passing traveller. The harder The North Wind blew, the tighter the traveller wrapped his cloak around him. But when The Sun shone, its warmth made the man take off his cloak.”
The moral of the fable is: Persuasion is better than force. That “Kindness, gentleness, and persuasion win where force fails.”
I like to think of the “kindness and gentleness” as being part of building “Attachment” – and the “persuasion” part as building healthy boundaries and calling in a support network who will assist you in “Limiting the Abuse”. Appropriate consequences for unacceptable behaviour uses “the power of persuasion”. Using ultimatums or threats or tantruming to force compliance is a form of bullying which can easily provoke a Narcissist into a defensive rage and/or to bully you back – and yet another no winner event.
Start setting the pace of kindness and gentleness with a smile and a warm greeting as Kim tells us to – it takes courage but it costs nothing, and it is priceless and essential in a reparative relationship. We may find this extremely difficult if we have harboured self-pity and resentment for any length of time and are unwilling to forgive and forget . . . but can we really blame our loved one if they have a sour or bitter expression when it may just a reflection of our own? Attitudes are contagious so “Let the healing begin with me!”
Good luck & stay in touch,
CD, Australia.
Dear Kim and Steve
I know you have probably heard this before but congratulations on your sucessful marriage.
Steve you are very lucky to have such a strong woman on your side. It took an enormous amount of work, dedication and specially love.
I read your books they are amazing, very practical and straight forward. Unfortunately I think its too late for us. I dont think I love my husband anymore. He left our family so many times and we have lived apart for more than two years (now I know why and I am no longer wondering why). Our daughter did not even who he was until recently. By ignorance I let him back into our lives (this is before I read your books) I thought that he had changed and really valued his family(of course this is not true at all)
Now I realized that, it would have been the perfect opportunity to leave all that behind me.
Now he comes once a month for a week and stays in my house.
Now my daughter knows who he is.
I am going to follow your suggestions on how to let him decide to leave.
But my question and my biggest fear has always been how to protect my daughter.
And this is where I need help.
Love to you
Thanks
Monica
John 53,
It is very difficult to back off and not to try and get our spouse/signif other to say what we need them to say, to admit what we want them to admit, to make us feel better when that is what we need. I know when a day feels like it is going off course, and I start to feel “prickly,” because of what is being said to me. If I am able to not respond back, and to “disengage,” it has a chance of diffusing. If I am not in as much control, and react back, it derails really quickly. Some days it seems like I am being pursued to provoke a fight, and it is very tough to disengage.
Sometimes the put down, the insult or the behavior of our spouse (S.O.) seems so egregious that we feel we are allowing ourselves to be ” walked on,” and treated improperly if we do not limit the behavior immediately. If instead we can extend to our partner the courtesy of allowing them to do something wrong, and to trust that their “bad” behavior is not really how they want to be, even if it is how they are acting at the moment. By doing so we can help them (and ourselves) to be more considerate and courteous. Demonstrating by example really is much more effective.
I had a real flash of this the other day – when I was struggling with my 5 year old, who was digging in his heels. In a role reversal for us, my husband helped to find a “face saving,” out for my son. Although immediately I wanted the 5yo to recognize and acknowledge he was being unreasonable, after a moment or two, I could recognize we had gotten him to do what he needed to do, and it really wasn’t important to correct him on the obstinance … time and good role models would do that.
BTW – What ever came from your evaluation for a neuro-psychological reason for your forgetfulness/disorganization/inability to plan future events? My husband recently questioned if I had ADD, after a discussion with someone else (see my next posting.) I’ve asked myself this question too, for the past few years of our relationship – not when I was younger.
CD, Kim and others who can give some reflection on this …
Overall things have been fairly stable at home, but I have one area of concern. One of my sitters (20yo college student) from the winter has been acting as an intern with my husband this summer. She is providing a lot of assistance to him, both in administrative stuff and technical/web help. She has been close to full time (most of which is in our house, in his home office) because his primary overseas “assistant” had to cut back a lot of time for personal reasons. He has taken her out to lunch on a few occasions and drove with her to Washington DC for a congressional meeting. I feel he engages more with her, and his overseas “assistant,” than with me … I’m sure if this is real or if it is my insecurity.
Generally, I would not feel uncomfortable about the interactions. My husband does not strike me as the type to get into something inappropriate, and I am in and out of the house with the boys. We are expected to be out when there are web broadcasts and important conference calls taking place, and the necessity for this varies.
However during the past winter, he would make recurrent remarks that the kids had more fun with the sitters or nannies and they laughed more with the boys, that they (the sitters) were easier to work with than I am, that things were smoother when I was working and not around, that I am the one who can not work with others and could not get anything done efficiently (when I tried to help him in his business almost 2 years ago (just after my youngest was born))
Most of this I think is just his hurtful remarks echoing in my mind, but the other day he said something about his talking with her about a conflict we were having (she came in at the end of an arguement when he was saying I could not solve the problem of keeping our house clean and organized enough) He was implying to me that she could solve the problem … I’m not sure what he really said to her. A few days later he said that she was talking about a friend recently being diagnosed with ADD and how her description of her friend not having linear trains of thought sounded just like me. He mentioned how frustrating this can be with me.
These two things, especially the way he discussed talking about me with her (in the first one) made me very perturbed. My husband has been upset when I have talked to any of my friends about anything, so that he would say anything to this intern seems out of character (hence my wondering if he really did.) It has left me questioning if I should be more concerned – and I think back on a few other mild crossings of what I think should have occured when this young woman was helping when I was working into the late evenings, or with my other primary sitter. It feels a bit like what Kim described as a fantasy of another “relationship,” as opposed to anything real. I don’t want to over read things, but I also would like your thoughts because I can’t take another emotional hit right now.
I’ll clarify further if I need to …it is hard to put subtle dynamics into coherent words
MR
Hi MR –
I need a little time to think about this as I believe this is very serious. I may write to you privately with a few more questions if that is OK?
Kim
MR
Your message is loud and clear and difficult to adhere to…but not impossible to achieve.
I find that when the crack starts in my wall of old behavior I don’t notice it happening and therefor it gets bigger and I continue to do what is unhealthy.
I know it is better to “allow” errors and continue with life…showing kindness before anger.
I relate to the “prickly” feeling and know that my wife picks up on it also. This makes for tention on both sides and is very uncomfortable.
I have realized that when I disengage I notice that in a short period of time my wife will find me and try and continue the conversation or start something else. To me this shows it is uncomfortable for her to be left w/o the banter and the need for the shoe to be on the other foot. Many times I have been able to keep the playing field fair…and more times have fallen into the frey.
Your comment about if you are not in as much control it derails much faster is on point. Simply said and exactly correct.
There comes a time where I get a feeling of enough is enough of the “forgiving” and do feel that I am being walked on due to the fact tht she doesn’t seem to stop the incorrect actions and doesn’t feel amy of them are wrong to begin with. How do I stop keeping score and stop letting these issues build up in me to the point of changing my behavior?
As far os your ? r/e the nerosurgeon I went two weeks ago and took two hours of tests(paper and pencil) and she is reviewing them. I go back a week form thursday for the results and any recommendations. I did relaize soem places where I couldn’t remember everything she said and it was a bit uncomfortable…but I so realize thats where I am in life and am glad to be getting the evaluation of today and possibly a look into the future.
Thanks for the support…as always.
in peace and hope
john53
Hi MR,
You are much, much better and smarter than what your husband would have you believe! Please, please believe in yourself and trust your instincts! Our instincts very often tell us the truth, where our logical thinking may sometimes be influenced by our subjectivity.
One of the best things I did for myself many years ago was to stop needing and seeking the approval of my husband. Instead I got in touch with my authentic self, and came to respect, love, accept, and approve of myself – warts and all – and to live according to my own belief system and agenda and not my husband’s – until then I was not being true to myself and my husband had little or no respect for me!
Try not to internalise your husband’s disapproving and derogatory remarks toward you – he needs you to be discredited, unconfident, fearful, and lower than him in the pecking order because of his unhealthy ego and because you know who he really is.
He cannot have you talking to others because you may reveal the truth about him and destroy his “image”. He is being hypocritical talking to others about you, and he is also making sure you know or at least believe he is talking to others about you – whether he is or not – because it has the effect of keeping you down and controlled. The good thing about his hypocriticalness is that it now gives you licence to talk to a support network freely again (not that you needed licence anyway!).
Your husband needs to have you isolated and controlled to keep his House of Cards intact – and the best way for him to do that is to have you believing that you are not good enough – and that he is better than you – and for him to keep provoking you as a form of attention seeking, and also to drive you to distraction with the potential of further isolation and discrediting of you.
Although I don’t know you personally – from what you have posted here I have drawn my own conclusions – that you are a loving, caring and capable mother and wife, and you are a highly credentialed professional as well – one who can recognise the traits of unhealthy narcissism in others.
It is extremely difficult when emotionally and romantically involved with a narcissist – to be able to walk the fine line of loving the authentic person while dealing with “the brat”. For that reason, and because you have been through so much especially over the last 12 to 24 months, including PND, I have no hesitation in saying that you are much stronger and wiser than what you think (or what your husband would egotistically have you believe!).
Also from what you have said – your husband was not very supportive towards you during your PND, which further leads me to believe that under the circumstances you have an amazing inner strength to be able to get through it and to get where you are now. Having said that, set your own goals and agenda each and every day and work to your own schedule – maybe you need to confidently tell your husband to back off without him giving room for negotiation – that you don’t need to be told what to do and when to do it – that what doesn’t get done today will keep until tomorrow – and if he wants it done before then he can do it himself, if it can wait then order him to go and make himself useful elsewhere or give him a job to do!
Trust in your instincts, trust and believe in yourself – and draw on that amazing inner strength you have and do what is best for you!
Take care,
CD, Australia.
My father was a narcissist. I always felt estranged from my mother because of her rage and anger. In fact, I think that I actually blamed her for their divorce. Only now almost 30 years later have she and I really made peace with our relationship as I have become enlightened to the whole scenario she had lived with for the 17 years she was with my father. Of course because of his charm and charisma, I was one of his adoring admirers. But looking back now I can remember how I could feel like the light of his life and within 30 seconds that light could shift to someone else. I felt so small and lonely, sitting right next to him. (He can still do this to me as an adult, but because of the love and strength of my step-mother, he acts out very infrequently – she WILL NOT stand for it.)
My first husband was also a narcissist, and his mother, WOW, she was the worst. During our marriage, she got married for the 8th time!! She was a use them and lose them kind of a person. He had a sexual addiction and I had enough. Fortunately we only lasted for a few years and then I was gone.
Now I have been with my current husband almost 16 years (married 9 years). We have a wonderful son together, also 9. Hmmm…. Anyways, I have only become to realize he is full blown NPD over the last several months. I am co-dependent, something I am working very hard on changing through meditation, goal setting, and being responsible for my own happiness.
He and I attempted having an open marriage about a year ago – what a crock. It was supposed to enhance our marriage. Turned out to be the perfect cover story for him to have an entire fan club. He was able to follow any flirtation he wanted to. It was less about being “open” and having more love in our lives than it was for him to be able to have an authorized affair. I had a breakdown last September (09), started an almost year long bought with insomnia. I finally said enough when the communication and mutual agreements regarding who we could or couldn’t see began to break down. He was changing the rules without letting me know. I finally said enough when one of the women he was seeing had him stay the night at her house when her husband was out of the country attending his grandmother’s funeral! She was not “open” within her marriage and her husband knew nothing about it. My husband’s lack of values and morals was too much for me. I said, no more – if we were to stay together our marriage had to go back to just the two of us, to which he agreed or so I thought.
Fast forward 4 months to my discovery of an affair he was having with a woman from his past. The same woman he cheated on me with about 2 years before we were married. Someone who lives 2000 miles away, married herself with 2 small children and a Christian husband who was totally in the dark. (She is one of the biggest narcissists I have ever met – she uses a life threatening heart condition to get her Narcissist Supply fix!!) That was when I truly woke up.
When he is his authentic self my husband is kind and thoughtful, very loving and wonderful to be with. This was who I fell in love with, not the charming, flirty, manipulative false self he is around everyone else. I am hopeful with this program (I have it ALL) as well as the additional resources that Kim and Steve suggest that there may be hope. It will be a long and slow road, as I am learning not to be pushed into acting like a raging lunatic, by someone who knows how to make me act out to cover his own bad behaviors. NO MORE – the game is up.
We have one BIG hurdle that I have realized that is at the root of most of my anger, lack of self-esteem, rage, insomnia, jealousy, mistrust and feeling of betrayal. That is from my husband having unconsensual sex with me when I was deeply asleep. This has happened about 4-5 times over the last year and a half. I would discover tell-tell signs the next day and confront him about it and he would always make light of it, saying something like how much my body reacted that he was sure was enjoying myself. We have always had a very sexual relationship and tried many things over the years. He made this just seem like another new part of our sex life and was able to manipulate me into believing the same thing. Almost laughing it off and calling him such a “bad boy”. Now I am viewing this very differently – this is a form of spousal rape.
I am so torn about what to do, where he is concerned. I know for myself I am beginning therapy for this as it is clear that I am suffering from PTSD. But whereas rape is usually about violence, not sex, this seems different. It had more to do with consent (or the lack thereof), objectifying and respect. I have confronted him as of the last occurrence, about 3 weeks ago, and he was very embarrassed, apologized and vowed it will never happen again. That he would either wake me so that I could actually be a willing participant or at least be able to say no. I agreed and said I would press charges if it did happen again – something with a double edged sword for him, because he is a law enforcement officer. Not only could he do jail time, but potentially lose his job.
We recently had an argument where this again came up because he couldn’t believe how much I hurt him because I called this rape. Now of course he is withholding sex because he can’t touch me without thinking about how hurt he feels. Oh well. I am sleeping in our guest room and it is interesting to find I can sleep without the sleeping pills I had been taking for the last 9 months. I am actually more at peace. Am I doing enough?
I feel stronger every day. I am not allowing him to create drama and suck me in. I will not react with anger when he wants to start a fight and blame it on me. This is very hard and I sometimes slip – with most life skills you get better the more you put them into practice. Trying not to become angry when someone is pushing your buttons is not something you get to practice often without being in a situation you are trying to avoid. I am learning to embrace my anger though instead of banishing it – I have realized it is only the scared child within me that is trying to find a form of self-defense, so I am learning to sooth and embrace that child and teach her another, better way of reacting. I am creating family time and making sure we are no longer screaming at one another as my son is my priority right now. I have given my son a voice and let him know that though dad and I aren’t seeing eye to eye, that is has nothing to do with him and that he has a voice in this family. He knows and has used his right to say “stop fighting” or “take a 5 minute time out” to either of us. He knows he will never be told to leave or to be quiet.
I so love my family and want to survive this with the 3 of us intact, happy and healthy.
Breathe, in….out….just keep breathing.
Hi Robin,
As I wrote to you through our help desk I believe it is best that you decide whether you are going to press charges on this or not and work on getting over the hurt of this without involving your husband. As you have seen already he will fight you for the victim space every time you try and claim it.
You you were hurt by this incident and say that it was rape and he claims he is hurt by you accusing him of rape etc. I am not saying that your claims are false – I am simply saying that pressing this issue – I believe – will be unproductive.
I also think as far as pressing charges goes you may have a very difficult time with him being a law enforcement officer as it will be your word against his and very hard to prove – while also being a messy issue that other police will not like being involved in.
The lack of trust in your marriage certainly needs to be dealt with and personally I would not be taking sleeping tablets that drugged me this deeply again if trust is this much of an issue. It may pay for you to go back to the 4 legged stool exercise and see where you are making progress and where you need more work. Trust is something that can only be built slowly and yes boundaries need to be set but it is important that you choose the battlefield.
A PI may be useful for you to hire if you have the money. If you had evidence of one of his affairs I think this would give you much better leverage than the threat of pressing charges for a rape that happened in the past while you were asleep.
I understand that you feel unnerved by this – but you are in a very tricky situation as it is – and you need to be wise in the moves you choose.
It is very common for people to fight over the victim space in a marriage – but never very productive. Choose only to fight battles you know you can win decisively.
We really encourage people to find their own strengths (and their partners weaknesses) to the point were they can step out of this space and see themselves victorious rather than a victim.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Kim,
Thank you for your response. The letter I sent you was given to him and he responded in a quiet, but humbled manner and has given me an apology. I hope there was sincerity there, as it felt like a real break through of sorts. But either way, that’s the end of that discussion between us.
I will NOT allow myself to be a victim again – he can have that royal space, as I am vacating it!!
I AM responsible for my healing. I have been referred to a specialist in abused women and PTSD. I am going back to the workbook and really taking a fresh look at my gap work and my co-dependence. I am looking forward to the work ahead of me, finding my voice, healing and forgiving my pain, rebuilding my self-esteem and becoming strong again.
We had one of the most valuable counseling sessions today, and while I am not looking for miracles for once I am seeing him taking some responsibilities and being open. Before we get better though I have to get better. I spoke to someone at a wonderful organization for abuse and really cleared my head.
Dear Kim,
I have some interesting questions (or maybe they’re only interesting to me!). Somehow I find myself attracted to military men, especially pilots.
After talking to some close friends, we determined that most of the men I’ve been hurt by or hung up over had one thing in common-arrogance. It didn’t matter what they did for a living, that was the common thread. I’m totally attracted to the confidence in these guys, but I can’t seem to determine where the fine line of confidence and overconfidence (arrogance) is. I realize it takes a certain special type of person to fly fighter jets and such. Friends I talk to say arrogance is a necessary pert of the job, and if someone’s in battle, they need arrogance. But is over confidence ever good? Is overconfidence actually a necessity in battle? I have to wonder.
I’m wondering if there are certain ways to test people to see if they’re just confident, or ‘arrogant’. Certainly some women fall in love with these types, are treated well, and have good marriages. Maybe I’m just super-sensitive to their overconfident ways? Maybe I should develop a thicker skin and realize it’s not personal. I’m wondering if combat makes these guys even more arrogant than when they started. I might take the attitude that they willingly signed on to serve and protect. To risk their lives. But after a while, is it only natural, after seeing so much violence and war, to start to feel that people ‘owe’ you something for protecting them? Is that only natural?
I have to wonder if, in general, there’s a way to determine early on if someone’s arrogant, or just confident. Confidence is very attractive. But detecting the boundaries is tricky for me. The only way I know of to protect myself from getting involved with arrogance is to sit back, take things very slowly, and observe. But are there shortcuts? Are there “tests” or questions to ask to determine how arrogant someone might be?
Hello Kim thanks soooo much for your time and testimony you should be very proud of the devotion and time you give too everyone Thank You and yours for being so truthful…
I have been following along on your cruise, have read and am working on the 10 steps. And am in the Love Safety Net. Having a hard time sorting this from that still, and also hard to figure out which steps I need to begin with for our situation.
My husband is unfaithful. And I don’t need a PI, I know for a fact that he continues to talk to her. He knows I hate it. You say in your 10 steps that I could talk to someone who has influence in his life. That is just the avenue that his narcissism has cut off. No book could tell him more than he knows. No man could know better than he does. No one is as smart as he is, and if there is a flicker of doubt in his mind about that he would never let another see it. I can’t take being in an open relationship against my wishes any longer.
I understand from the 10 steps that I need to set a boundary here. Any suggestions for doing this? All I can come up with is kicking him out, which will end the relationship I am hoping to save.
I have been following along on your cruise, have read and am working on the 10 steps. And am in the Love Safety Net. Having a hard time sorting this from that still, and also hard to figure out which steps I need to begin with for our situation.
My husband is unfaithful. And I don’t need a PI, I know for a fact that he continues to talk to her. He knows I hate it. You say in your 10 steps that I could talk to someone who has influence in his life. That is just the avenue that his narcissism has cut off. No book could tell him more than he knows. No man could know better than he does. No one is as smart as he is, and if there is a flicker of doubt in his mind about that he would never let another see it. I can’t take being in an open relationship against my wishes any longer.
I understand from the 10 steps that I need to set a boundary here. Any suggestions for doing this? All I can come up with is kicking him out, which will end the relationship I am hoping to save.
MR,
I went to the neurologist on wednesday and got the results of the testing. It shows absolutely NOTHING wrong with me brain…the results were stellar and for my age and education I rank in the average to high average in all tests taken.
This being said the doctor said she had some ideas as to the problems I face and the feelings I have.She stated “Of note, his endorsement of symptomatology on a self-report measure suggested a significantly greater degree of depression than what was reported during clinical interview. Depression ,anxiety, and stress can negatively inpact cognitive functioning, in paticular attention and executive functions which can in turn mimic memory problems. The personality changes he is reporting including increased orritabliity and reduced motovation are also likely secondary to his depression and anxiety. Based on hos current level of Moderate to Severe depressive symptomatology, he currently meets the diagnostic criteria for Depressive Disorder, not otherwise specified.”
There you have it…not the best ending to a great start.
In recommendations it is stated that the gold standard for the degree of “D” is a combination of antidepressant meds and psychotherapy.
I have told the doctor(nero) I am not interested in meds and have contacted a doctor(phys) since the metting.
I did not call my wife immediately and rec’d a call stating it was nice of me to call with the results…I told her the Stellar part and in a later conversation gave her more info. I was out after work and about 11 p.m. got home to discuss the report.
During the interview I mentioned some things to the doc r/e my wife and my feelings pertaining to what she says and how that feels…this was not received well and the ????started to fly. She feels I did not report the whole situation and by not doing so I can out looking like the good guy.
Her whole issue is that I have dished out all the “S..t” and all her responses were reactions to my starting everything. I said I thought she was cold in her responses and deliberate inher actions..this hit the roof. I wanted to be honest about my feelings and stated that along wiht my issues there were issues among us and some on her side as well. I stated that my trying to fix my issues would not cure this and the “we” issues needed to be addresses.
This all ended in the “I’m done with you and all this..you can live your life by yourself…I’m moving on.”
I know I have not been the best person in many areas of this relationship..however I have feelings which need to be addressed and emotions which need fufilling. I don’t see any way to keep this going and the future is not bright.
I did try and stay calm and focused during the arguement but had a few areas that could have been handled better. I know this is a long note but I feel alot of false hope and very little self confidence at this moment.
I will keep in touch.
peace
john53
Hi Jenni,
I just back in from a couple of days away and am so behind I can’t write much now but perhaps there will be people here who might help you more than I can right now. When I mentioned having influence it doesn’t mean that it is someone who he thinks is smarter – just someone who he likes impressing and won’t want to know. In my case it was not an affair but porn and Steve flirting and leading women on and which was the problem. I had to in fact introduce Steve to the man who would end up being this person. In our case it was a lovely older man who is a retired minister who had very similar interests and who Steve worked on community projects with (being the big star doing volunteer work while we had no money!). Steve was horrified that I might talk to this man about my concerns about Steve’s porn addiction.
I am sorry I don’t have time to write more …
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
Do you guys ever discuss the issues of a non-NPD partner having mental health issues of their own? My boyfriend has NPD, and I have a been diagnosed with traits of Borderline personality disorder.
This makes this whole equation more volatile, because when he pushes me/abuses/invalidates me I get flooded emotionally and sometimes fly off the handle and even hit him sometimes. Which I know isn’t okay, but the level of the disrespect he shows me at times is just mind-blowing.
He has more audacity than anyone I know. This is not my normal way of relating to people, most people think I am very nice. But he pushes me beyond what I can tolerate.
Yet instead of leaving, here I am, keep going back and then hate myself for it, because I am not respecting myself.
It’s all so exhausting. I am literally exhausted. I look like hell, I get wracked with obsession over him/jealousy/worrying about what’s he’s doing and who he’s with. I think he’s cheating now, and I know he does online at least. I try to snip him but I have such an obsessive, imaginative mind, its really difficult. It “grips me” and horrible scenes play over and over in my mind. It’s torturous. I have OCD type problems and the obsessions can be really bad. That combined with the huge emotions of BPD, I have been “through the wringer.”
It’s seems kind of crazy with my personal “handicaps” mentally/emotionally/attachment wise to be trying to do this for somebody else. I feel like I need somebody to do this for ME. I need a restorative relationship. I could use some fill-in parenting, I have attachment issues. Where is my support?
It makes me very sad, he can’t offer me any support for my BPD and in fact, he aggravates it with his constant invalidation of me.
Here is a description of my “handicap” (bpd physiology):
*The person’s sympathetic nervous system is easily triggered by emotions;
*The reaction in the body is very intense, and;
*It takes a long time for the person’s bodily response to “go back to normal” after being triggered.
*Difficulty modulating emotions:
*Finding it difficult to not act immediately in response to strong emotion, even if the action is destructive;
*Being unable to continue working towards goals in the face of strong emotions;
*Being unable to make oneself feel better in the face of strong emotions, and;
*Being unable to distract oneself from strong emotions.
So you can see why this would be extra challening for me.
I have been working really hard on it though. Trying to learn how to self soothe and become more empowered. It’s very difficult. I just went to the emergency room the other day asking for medication because I was about to come unglued from anxiety due to the problems in our relationship. I wrote to the woman he writes to online and asked her if there was anything between us and confessed all this personal stuff, it was pretty inappropriate. I sarted taking the anti-depressant, and I’m glad I did because it has lessened my anxiety.
I really appreciate the point of view about being a “soft target” and how I need to get stronger. My older sister was narcissistic and my 18 year old son’s father was diagnosed NPD (he left us when I got pregnant, never saw him again.) I’ve had many narcissitic friends where they were the “star” and I was…what???….I finally started figuring it out, that I was attracted to narcissists and so I got all those people out of my life because I didn’t want to be the “second fiddle” all the time not have my needs met, and then this guy comes back into my life saying he wants to marry me (he was my first love and though we’ve always had a bad relationship, there seems to be something very bonding.) We have never forgotten about each other, though I feel I hate him most of the time because of the way that he treats me. But yet, still bonded. I don’t really understand. Just recently I’ve been reading about the narcissist/borderline couple and that seems to explain it.
I also do Al-anon, so I vacillate between trying to do the Al-anon principles and trying to do your program, which are kind of opposite approaches, because Al-anon says let go of control, and your program says, learn how to take control of the situation. So I get confused about what really is the best. Anyway, thank you for reading, and I really do admire what you’ve accomplished. Your story and strength has inspired me to really work on getting stronger. I’m just not sure if I can hang in there with my boyfriend because it’s all getting to be too much for me. It’s effecting me physically now, not just mentally. I really look unhealthy.
Hi RD,
I think you have got the point of our work better than anyone!!! Because you can see your own emotional reactivity it actually means you understand what is happening better. Many people who team up with narcissists have all the same problems you do but just don’t have the terms to describe it. I don’t know about BPD but I for one have a terrible temper and that has certainly taken work to change (-:
So you do not have to stay with your boyfriend if you can’t handle it – of course – but for me it was just the kind of intense training I needed. I formed other friendships with good role model types but Steve was the acid test.
I have so much to catch up on – I can’t write much more today – but what I have been wanting to say to the group here is that learning to be in control of your own happiness is not just learning to never get mad. I get mad plenty – but now it never lasts for more than a few minutes and then I go and cool down. It doesn’t work to just push the hurt down and be submissive, that is the complete opposite of what I really teach. You need to get mad sometimes but you need to choose your battles and know you are right and work on your strategy so you know that you can win.
I bet you are a great gal and more self aware than most. Really being able to walk away from his BS may take you having some goals that really absorb you (and perhaps a few friends who scare him!). I get so worried sometimes that I come across as some kind of angel here (blame the stylist who put us in white!) when really I am a girl who runs her own publishing business and is extremely goal oriented (and has scary looking guys who dress up as Vikings on the weekends as friends). Much more Athena than an angel. The answer will come to you RD when it is time, it really will. Are you going to let the worst he has to offer make you unhappy? Be a bit narcissistic yourself and be too important and too busy for that and choose to be truly be happy instead. If you are worried about your looks well good make that a goal and project and start working on getting some sun and a budget for the hairdressers! Life is not a dress rehearsal and you are smart enough to choose good role models who you want to imitate (even if you don’t know them personally) and in that way parent yourself! I think they used to call it pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. I know that what I did!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hello all,
I am a newbie here and have posted before but I have been quite busy since the first of July. My oldest child, a 20 yo son came to visit for 10 days. He leaves for bootcamp on 8/4 and then immediately after for Navy Seals BUDS. I am a bit caught up with that. Then, my 16 yo son came to visit on the 10th, praise the lord, he has received a football scholarship to attend a private high school in California.
Now, I would like to tell you all that I am not bragging about my kids, I am………my NH cannot begin to tell me enough what a horrible parent I am and how horrible my kids are. I have four children, long story (only 1 with myself and my NH)…….Now, believe me there are times when each one is “perfect” and the other is a total mess in my husbands eye. I think they are all perfect all the time (with some flaws, behavioral issues, manners, and the like, of course)
I could go on and on about this but the main point I would like to make is that I just found this website and am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo excited that I have found a place that there is hope. I was TOTALLY not willing to throw this relationship away and I know I have found some hope here.
Kim and Steve, you are inspirational and I am extremely grateful for your words of hope for us in need.
I purchased your program but, due to my wonderful visit from my kids, I have not had the time to delve into it, however, I did have a dinner last week where my mother commented on how well behaved my husband was……of course he told me how awful the dinner was afterward but….a noticed behavior change.
I have so much more to say but my typical gift of gab eludes me today. Please let me tell you more about the simple Message Kim has given me that has made a difference in my life since the day I found this website. It really does make a difference!!!!
Hi Kim / CD,
I am writing here after a long time. A lot has been happening in my life. My N husband seemed to have become better for a while but now he is going back to his old traits. And I find myself very submissive once again! My N husband has always had an issue with me being on a social networking site. We live in a different country now so I wanted to be in touch with my friends and family (he is on the site as well and also has my password). The other day just for no reason he went in to my profile and changed the settings so that no one can add me or send me a message. This was weird ..I said to him well what’s the point in having a profile if no one can find me or send me a message? . I will still have the control to add them or not. The only answer he gave me or has lately being giving is “Because I said so! or I want it to be that way”. He has “Instructed” me not to add and old (I write the word old because I am not allowed to be friends with any male since I have been with him) male friends( even if he knows them and adds them). But he himself has his profile open to everyone and also adds our female friends( I don’t really mind but why such restrictions one me when he even has my password?) . So last night a one of our common (female) friend sent us an add invite. I added her but told him not to add her. He just nodded (in a way that it doesn’t matter if he does not add her) but form the look on his face and his temperament for a little while I sensed that he had a problem but just did not say anything. I know he will bring this up some time also I have changed his profile settings to what he has set on mine. When I was thinking about it this morning it all seemed very childish. What am I really achieving with this? I did it because I wanted him to feel what I feel. He knows what he does is wrong but just wants it that way. But I feel I am better than this.. why the tit for tat? but honestly I don’t know what else to do? Am I doing the right thing by putting the same restrictions on him that he has on me?
I would really help some suggestion here..
S
Hi s (and everybody)
I’m RD, new to the site, I just wanted to say that I have tried to do the same thing many times with my boyfriend – do to him what he does to me so he can see how it feels. I think it works a little in the moment, because there are times where he seemed to be able to “see what he was doing” a bit, but I don’t think it resulted in any lasting change. I also would try to tell him, “okay, imagine that i just did _______” and sometimes he would say, “okay,okay” but sometimes he just got angry and said I was treating him like a child.
I am having a hard time this morning because I haven’t talked to him in over a week. I decided I didn’t want to abandon him, but I didn’t want to be his girlfriend anymore because its too hard on me being in a sexual relationship with someone who is not “into only me.”
But I still care and I was thinking maybe I could still try to work with him a little from a different standpoint. Plus I feel a little afraid of him and I think if I cut off all communication, it might be worse for me in the long run.
I was feeling sad this morning thinking about how little love I receive in this relationship. I told him I was at the doctors last week and he didn’t even ask me about it. I just found out I may have diabetes and I don’t even have a boyfriend who cares about me. It’s all about him. It makes me so angry and sad sometimes.
What I am working on right now, is looking at how this has been an addictive relationship for me. I’ve been listening to an audio called ‘”Beyond Emotional Dependency” which says that if you are in a emotionally dependent relationship, you are dysfunction emotionally not only in your relationship, but also with yourself. I’ve been trying to figure out what that means.
What I’ve figured out so far is that I don’t really honor my own feelings, and I ignore them and try to “people please” instead. From the beginning with my boyfriend, there were things that frightened me or upset me, but I chose to believe what he said over how things effected me. I’m not sure why I did this. So I’m trying to look at that and become more honest both with myself and in my relationship.
The other thing is I have huge anxiety which I try to assauge though contact or getting reassurance from him, so I’m trying to stop myself from doing this now. It’s really difficult. And it means that I then have to face those awful feelings. Blah!!! It’s not fun. I think its my fear of abandonment.
So now that I may actually be being abandoned, instead of trying to get in there and get reassurance I’m not being abandoned, I am trying to say to myself, okay, well, imagine you have been abandoned, look, you are still alive. And I’m trying to figure out what to do make myself feel better. I feel kind of excited about this work, even though its very hard on me. I felt a lot safer in my little insulated world. But I also lived a very limited lifestyle and I don’t want that to be my fate for the rest of my life.
Kim, thanks for the encouragement, I wrote it on a piece of paper, I started a list of compliments and nice things people say to me to try and boost my self esteem.
Another thing: entering into a relationship when I don’t even love myself. I was abandoned emotionally in my family and I have not yet learned to love myself.
Hi Everyone and sorry S I am extremely busy for the next week while getting ready to launch a new product (and with clients arriving from overseas) so I am sorry but I hope that someone else here might be able to help you …
Kim
I did break up with my boyfriend. It feels very good to trust my own intuition instead of what he was telling me. I do still care, though, and still plan on talking to him, so I am going to keep working on the plan. I realize that I will have less influence as a non-girlfriend, but there was no way I could keep living with that amount of stress. Oh my God that was way too much stress for me. I feel relieved but also sad and down. It sure seems true (at least in our case) that “borderline” people use relationships with “narcissistic” people to counter inner deadness/emptiness…Now I have to figure out how to fill that emptiness and make a decent life for myself. Before I got together with him, I often would feel empty and depressed and like I didn’t have a direction in life. Or I’d change my direction too often to accomplish anything. Then being with him I was too anxious to ever feel any depression. Now I’ve got to deal with that. I think the relationship gave me a life focus and a goal, too: fixing the relationship.
It’s okay though, I can do this. And if I ever hope to have a healthy relationship with him, I believe I am going to need to be happy with my own life and be independent. I don’t know if it’s possible for us to have a healthy relationship, but believing and respecting myself instead of accepting his version of reality has got to be a good place to start.
So we are officially over , no games this time. He has moved on and left me with a STD. I told him I knew he was lying and cheating on me. He made me sound like I was crazy and I had the issue. I wrote him and told him he should use protection and condoms were not a bad idea. At first, I was in shock. How could this happen to me? I was loyal and I didn’t deserve this. I wanted to tell him what a low life he was, but instead just said what I said above and that I had a STD from him. My heart skipped a beat and felt frozen in the moment. I felt like someone had scared me with a bug on my back or in my bed.I think shock served the function of feeling disbelief and surpirsed. Not a the good kind of surprised, the kind that makes your stomach churn. I, then felt hurt. My feelings felt twisted in my chest, and I felt like crying. I felt shakey all over and unable to concentrate. I stared off into space unable to process the information. I wanted to ask him why did he do this to me? How could he be so cold, and not care about my health. I then felt angry, and I my shoulders tensed up. I believe this wrong and I didn’t deserve this. That selfish man, what a complete irresponsible man child. I feel and agry and betrayed. I should have just let go, but I didn’t.
Hi Jennie,
I’m sorry to hear what you’re going through. From how I’ve felt, I imagine how bad you must be feeling right now. Please don’t be harsh on yourself about not letting go. I broke my nose in an accident obsessing about my boyfriend, I went to psyche respite over stress in our relationship and now my hair is falling out, which I’ve been told by a doctor is possibly due to stress (though I think something else is going on physically) and I STILL didn’t let go.
You know what I think finally helped me to let go (and I still haven’t let go completely but I did break up with him so we are not having a sexual relationship anymore) is listening to self hypnosis audios about empowerment and emotional dependency. They got me to start “believing” myself instead of saying, “maybe I’m wrong” all the time and vacillating.
You would think horrible treatment would be enough to help anyone let go, but that wasn’t what helped me (and I still haven’t let go completely, but I did break up with him so we are no longer having a sexual relationship.) It was listening to self hypnosis tapes every day about empowerment and emotional dependency. I think we have to make ourselves stronger to be able to let go or do what we need to do for ourselves.
Please be good to yourself and nice and kind to yourself. I wonder how many of us here have a hard time doing that? I know I’m super harsh on myself, which kind of sets me up for someone else (him) to come in and be harsh on me – I was already used to not being listened to (from myself) and expecting too much (of myself.) He came in and became that voice externally.
I wonder if all of us here have an inner voice that tells us the things that the person with NPD tells us, and that’s what makes it a really hard struggle. Because we already have that within us, and then here comes this person who slips right into that role, making that internal voice now something we can see and hear on the outside. Anyway, probably not true of everyone, everytime I make that kind of assumption it turns out to be wrong, but I know at least it’s true for me. He became my “worst nightmare” but my nightmare was something that was already within me.
RD,
Thanks for responding to me, I have been so emotional lately. I am angry I have to let him go, but it is what is best for me and him.Being with him was like being in prison. I never knew when his next emotional outbrust would happen. He would yell and scream at me all the time. He seems not to remember that, but it was horrible. I would become just someone I didn’t recognize, like I said since when do I need a restraining order against me. I became so violent that I could not control the rage. I feel guily now and I have to forgive myself. It is hard to forgive myself, but I can. David takes no responsibility for anything and blames me for everything. I took on so much weight with him, and if my ideas didn’t work, OMG, call 911, his whole life was going to fall apart. One fight and his whole day was ruined. I hated being with him, but I loved him. Now he is with someone else and feel sad about that, but I still don’t want to be with him. It was a battle field with him, everyday, no peace, no love, just fight after fight. I like what you said about him being my live voice of the negative way I already felt about myself. I try to be good to myself, but I am so angry. I know I need to let it go, and accept it is over. I just don’t feel it is over, I feel like he is giving me a break. He does that, he gives me breaks, sometimes months. He always comes back though, however this is the first time he said Goodbye. I just feel bad because I can’t do this with him anymore. I am afraid he is going to breeze back into my life while it is going great and turn it upside down. I want to be strong enough to tell him to go away and never come back. Although, I know if he came back tomorrow, I would be his puppy dog. I hate that and I resent that.
Hi
My brother in law is a bully.
Not only to me but to my nephews.
This is the third time in this year that he has been very intimidating and agressive towards me in front of my daughter and my two nephews.
I wrote him a this email:
Angel
This is the third time you have raised your voice and have been very aggressive towards me.
This behavior is UNACCEPTABLE
I do not know how to handle you when you are like this and its scares me.
I feel intimitated and hurt when you act like this.
If this happens again I will have a word with my friend U.S. Marshall Joe Castro about this intimidation and aggresion problem.
I do not what to call him,but I dont know how to handle your aggression and intimidation so I really have no choice if you do not stop.
We can talk again when you are ready to talk to me without being so agressive.
This is what he responded to me:
Monica
I am not going to be afraid of your comment, do as you feel, I feel you have no respect for others and want your way, grow up. I am not going to stoop down to your level though, dont worry about me, I have nothing more to say, when you are willing to LISTEN, not HEAR, LISTEN then we can talk until then. I dont know what else to tell you.
Angel
PLEASE Help
I dont know how to handle this situation.
Thanks
Monica
KIM, CD, MR, anyone who can, please HELP,
I know I haven’t posted in a long time, but I’ve read through the blog periodically. I’ve been spent, having the worst year of my life. I lost 2 grandparents within 4 months of eachother, Markell lost 2 jobs within 6 months, my father got diagnosed with cancer and went in for a major surgery in June and still isn’t recovering very well… LOTS to deal with this year, individually in my husband and my life and of course – the NARCISSISM.
I am lost because coming off the worst year of my life my husband is ready to walk out the door. I always thought he was too weak for that, but reality is that he has nothing left and has admitted he wants to be alone because he doesn’t want a partner, he wants a cheerleader to build him up no matter what.
This isn’t how it is suppose to end. I have given 10 years to this marriage. Through infedelity and addictions I have wanted to make this work. I guess I haven’t worked the program very well this year because I have been too busy trying to cope and deal at the same time disconnect from the bad behavior that never seems to end. I became distant and detached and unable to love the man who can’t seem to respect my boundaries.
He really wants to walk out the door and I find myself almost begging him to stay and work through it with me. Everytihng he says is true. We are not happy, we have never been happy. He doesnt want to be responsible for the “family” only himself. For the first time in a long time he is being real and honest and all I want to do is keep him here.
I feel I am suppose to let him go. He is depressed and doesn’t want to be married anymore. I am worried about how the divorce will turn out and I don’t fully trust him with the children. I don;t want a long drawn out battle over custody, but I don’t feel like I can be cordial with him at this point.
I want to keep trying, but he does not. He truly does not.
HELP with some advice, please!!!!!!!!!
Hi Jennie,
You’re welcome. I know what you mean about becoming someone you don’t recognize – I “lost it” and screamed at/hit my boyfriend many times, something I guess I am fortunate he never called the police for. I do have a problem with my temper/emotional issues, but for me to get to the point of hitting someone, there has only been one other time in my life besides childhood where I’ve done that and that was when my teenage son went through a bad period and became extremely disrespectful and what I perceived as threatening…which wasn’t an okay response, I know.
I am just BAD at dealing with disrespect. I’ve always felt like a “victim” that way. I was picked on a lot as a child, very shy and sensitive and fearful, and I many bullies bother me. I still do sometimes, like on the public bus and such. I really need to learn how to deal with disrespect, and know what my rights are and how to defend them. I was victimized a lot as a child and have thought many times that maybe learning karate or some kind of martial art would help me move past my fear and tendency to be/feel like a victim.
I know what you mean about the “puppy dog” too. I am really grateful (though admittedly sad and jealous) that my boyfriend has found somebody else. I feel sure he has because I don’t think he’d stay away this long if he didn’t have a “replacement.” But like you, I also feel “this isn’t over” and some time he’ll be back. I want to get high speed internet so I can start watching the safety net boat cruise and episodes of the nanny. I want to become that kind of person.
My boyfriend most of the time takes little responsibility for his actions, too. He put a picture of me on his facebook page that said, “this girl eats guys like me for breakfast.” *eyes roll* Who went to the psyche ward? Me, not him. He seems to be able to just put aside or forget everything and concentrate on new “people” quite easily, whereas I get stuck and dragged down into “whirlpools” of emotion: sadness, fear, guilt, thinking I need to be loyal.
You said, “i hated being with him, but I loved him.” I idenitify. I HATED being with him. And at the same time I felt I loved him. It’s all very confusing. Our relationship was a battlefield, too.
With my boyfriend I felt like there was always this “cord” between us connecting us, and no matter how near or how far we’d be emotionally or physically, there was almost always this unbearable tension on that cord, with rare reprieves. I’m so grateful that for the moment it’s relieved.
Perhaps we can support each other. I think it’s worth still working on the program and learning this stuff even if we are not with our significant others anymore. I don’t know about you, but for me, being involved with narcissists has been a lifelong thing, so learning how to become more assertive and think more of ME instead of “THEM” (the fantastic stars!!!) sounds like a really good thing to do.
I also know what you mean about being afraid he is going to breeze back into your life while it is going well and turn it upside down. I have the same fear. I feel myself healing a little bit day by day and I think “what if he comes back?!”
Since I’m not at the point that I want him to go away forever, I want to work on getting stronger, learning to take care of myself and be in touch with myself, making a life for myself, knowing how to set boundaries and not be a victim. Of whoever. Ah, well, anyway, I’m glad it helped a little for that I replied. I’m trying to work on being good to myself, too. You didn’t do anything wrong. You deserve to be good to you!
Hi Monica,
Wow, I think you did fantastic! I think you should follow through and call your friend the marshall and tell him about it, if you think he can help. I can understand why getting that reply would feel scary, but your position sounds a lot stronger to me than your brother in law’s and i think what you did was inspriring! Guts!!!
Hi Allison and hi to everyone,
I am sorry I haven’t had much time here and CD and MR seem to be busy as well lately. I try and answer what posts I can. If you have a direct question you want answered by me my YouTube channel is also a good one to try (the channel is called Narcissism Self Help).
I really feel for what you are going through and all I can suggest is that you stop trying to convince him to stay and see if you can get him to talk and you just listen and be understanding. If he is being real now well then that is a great place to start. I remember Steve like that at times and as horrible and painful as it would be to listen to him talk about how he didn’t love me and just wanted to leave – by me listening and not telling him he was wrong or putting any pressure on him it always seemed to make him feel a lot better about us. I know that is a really tough call but it is also a great chance for you to show him that you are stronger and that is what he really needs and wants to see. If you can listen and ask questions and be interested in what he feels there may also come a point where he feels brave enough to drop his pride and expose some of what he is afraid of and you may be able to be supportive then and things may shift in a different direction. One way or other you will need to be very grounded and strong now and give him the time you haven’t had lately. You being grounded and strong even if he leaves will be important for yourself and may end up the test he needed to see that he can trust you?
I know this is tough but from what you are saying it seems that his false pride is coming down and instead of saying that you have done everything wrong maybe that isn’t true and now is the time when his real self comes out and you get to show how grounded and together you can be?
I know that is really tough but it seems to me that we always get tested by fire when we are overcoming our codependence. I remember being out with the 3 kids – all under 10 and us having very little money but we were at a shopping mall, which as you may know is a tough gig on it’s own! Well I went to get something out of Steve’s wallet and there was a girls phone number that was not with the cards but tucked in a different spot – where he kept his money. I know I have told this story before but it is the truth and was my test of fire. Steve was so defensive and aggressive it was easy to see this was something I wasn’t meant to find and I was feeling jealous and devastated. The thing is however that me and the kids had actually been happy before this and I decided I wasn’t going to let him take that away from us. I decided I was going to be stronger than his bad behavior!
He tells me to this day how much that situation woke him up and shocked him. He saw he couldn’t pull my strings anymore and he saw I was stronger and he tells me he felt scared but he also liked it. The really strange thing is that when we got home that night I was offered an extremely well paid job by someone who I knew online but had no idea was recruiting for a big company. I truly believe the universe rewarded me with that job for the strength I had shown that night. As things work out however that job itself was another huge test of my strength and in the end could have destroyed me – but again I didn’t let it. It was a stepping stone not a resting place.
So I guess what I am saying Allison is are you going to rise to this challenge? Begging a man who is bad to you and says he doesn’t love you to stay does not make you very strong in his eyes and strength is what this man craves and needs. It is time to find your courage and your strength and rise above this! True strength is being able to stand there with your heart open even if it hurts like hell and listen to what he will share and you speak the truth of what you feel also but from a place of honesty and trust in yourself that doesn’t need to be saved and doesn’t need to defend itself.
My thoughts will be with you – I know you can meet this challenge and one way or other I know you will be victorious!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
RD,
Thank you so much for what you said. I feel so alone with this situation. Everything you described is how I feel. I am lucky too, David never called the cops. I am happy he found someone new to torture to, but at the same time this girl most likely will dump him to. Does your ex-boyfriend make you out to be the villain in his life? Does he make you out to be the bad guy and you look like the pyscho. I can relate to you that you want to learn karate or martial arts. Lately, I have been so angry I just been very distant. I want someone that understands this emotional hurt and neglect. I am glad I found you because everyone doesn’t understand this relationship. Sometimes I think he has telepathy, crazy as it seems. I feel we have a cord that pulls us together like how you feel. I want to tell him, “No.” I want him to leave and never come back, however I feel guilty about that. I still feel loyal to him, eventhough, believe me he has in no way loyal to me. I had been a victim for a long time, but through hate, anger, and pure rage, I have become more like the predator, now. Everyone walks on egg shells around me and I can’t tolerate any kind of noise or disturbances. I realize so much reading Kim’s stuff and all the enormous amount of therapy I have been in. I don’t feel closure though, and that is what frightens me most about this situation. I think you are very strong and dealing with disrespect is hard on us all. I think you did the best you could. Aferall, when someone lies to you, cheats on you, and hurts you, it is only natural to become angry. It is even more fustrating when they can’t see what they did wrong and only see you as the source of the complications. I am glad to be free, but I get very jealous and angry when I think he with someone else. I don’t know why because I hate being with him. I hope life gets better now that he is gone. I know I feel lost and lonely without him, but I feel better that he is gone. I feel such paradox emotions, on one side I hate being with him and on the other I am in love with him. Also, I feel like I want to run to him and hold and then I want nothing more than to beat him and hurt him like he has hurt me. The paradox emotions drive me crazy because I feel two different emotions about the same person.
Hi Jennie,
I know what you mean about being glad he found someone else, I go in and out of feeling sad, jealous, lonely and glad. I think part of what I want is for someone else to “see” what this has been like, and also to see that it wasn’t me. I have this huge fear that he is going to be faithful, kind, willingly listen to another woman, when he would not do that for me. It makes me feel like I wasn’t “woman enough” and I hate how that feels. I get this image in my mind sometimes of the type of woman I can imagine him with, and it’s definitely a woman who does not take any —-. I feel so bad that I’ve been so easily manipulated and such a “wimp” but I really couldn’t help it. I’m very vulnerable to that. I envy women who don’t put up with any b.s.
For me, with the blame thing, I think it was easy for him because I let him know up front that I had a mental disorder myself, so he’s always had an easy out. First he blamed everything on that disorder and talked to a bunch of people about it online, then after I ordered some materials for how to help support someone with my disorder, he decided that maybe I don’t have the disorder at all. Or that the advice for how to support me was b.s. He “changes facts” to support whatever point of view he favors, which is always changing.
I’m pretty sure my boyfriend has mental illness besides npd. My guess is he’s bipolar and adhd, too. He has a horrible time with moods and shifting reality and thinking people are out to get him all the time.
He kind of looks down on me for going to mental health services, he feel superior because he’s never done that and refuses to beleive anything is “wrong” with him. I still love him though. I wish he would get evaluated, I think maybe he could be happier if he got treatment.
He reaLly isn’t happy at all. He just keeps running from everything with attention from people, alcohol and gambling, and sex. I wish I could help him but he has a whole slew of interent friends and some in real life who have mental illnesses too but don’t believe in mental illness, they think they are “magical and special” and I think those relationships pump his ego and egg him on that rules don’t matter and “anything goes” in life.
That’s part of why we broke up, I couldn’t compete with that. I thought he was moving away from it, but then he blew what little money he had instead of saving for a new apartment, which he said he wanted me to live in with him, on a new laptop for himself so he could go online anytime. That was a turning point for me, seeing he was becoming more invested in his “online life” instead of away from it.
I know what you mean about going from being loving to vindictive. I can’t believe how vindictive I feel towards him sometimes. But I noticed I feel better when I think about forgiveness. I listened to an audio today about that, and it helped me feel happier.
MY goal is to totally move away from resentment but I think that’s going to take awhile. I have hope for it, though. I’d rather not hate. But I have been allowing those mean thoughts more lately.
I never used to let myself do that. But now I think it’s important to let myself feel however I really do, but not “get stuck” there, and then think about other things, too, like how I’d like to be positive in the situation.
Plus I really need to get working on what needs to change/be done in my own life. I don’t know about you, but my life was not working well before he came into it. I need to figure out how to make a life for myself that works for me. And that’s going to take a lot of energy.
Allison,
Glad I came on the site tonight, because I too have been going through lots of parental physical and cognitive decline this year (or 2 or 3), which when you are a parent yourself leaves you even more drained.
You wrote about your husband being ready to walk out the door, and thinking in the past he was “too weak for that.” If you can shift your perspective a little … you are not going to be able to change reality what ever he decides, but you do need to get yourself a little more together. Given what is on your plate, are you getting sleep and are you being able to minimally take care of yourself. I can remember a humorous moment about 18 months ago (when I finally took the time to go to the dentist and fix a chipped front tooth … and I was thinking that sitting in that chair was the most relaxing time I had had for months !)
For myself, I went through a time when my husband was threatening to leave, and it would leave me crushed, tearful and either pleading in person or privately in my own mind. It is difficult to do, but try and walk yourself through what you would do if he were to leave – what are the things you would need to get in place, and work on some of them. (I need to say this to myself again too
Financial as best as you can, but also social – emotional supports. It is a little easier to handle the thoughts of separating it when you have moved yourself “oh my gosh I can’t take this, I can’t get through this,” to “I really really don’t want to do this, and it will be horrid, but I know I can get through and survive. “
CD in one (or several) of her postings has talked about choosing to stay in a marriage, but accepting that may not always be the case. It is very hard, and the emotions still flood me if the fear of a divorce etc get triggered, but I have found it helpful to at least try and be at peace and accepting of that possibility some of the time.
Now I find myself struggling more with pushing back at his narcissistic attitude and wondering if I can keep this up and is this worth it. My answer remains that I don’t want either of us to walk away, and I would be devistated if I were part of doing that to our boys, but I do question it more within myself.
My husband too wants a cheerleader, to always be positive, agreeable (not to contradict) and to build him up. I don’t know if anyone can keep that up, but for whatever reason I know it is difficult for me (I can know what he needs me to say, but I can’t make myself say it … partly because it just feels foreign, and partly pettily because he won’t build me up when I want it.)
From your posting …This isn’t how it is suppose to end. I have given 10 years to this marriage. Through infedelity and addictions I have wanted to make this work. I guess I haven’t worked the program very well this year because I have been too busy trying to cope and deal at the same time disconnect from the bad behavior that never seems to end. I became distant and detached and unable to love the man who can’t seem to respect my boundaries.
I’m certain you are doing a superhuman job of trying to cope, and distant and detached might just be the right strategy for both of you right now. It will give you some space to take care of you, and him the space to realize what you do offer. I only really have experience with the emotional verbal barrage (unless you can be having an affair with a computer – it (ie the business) has his full attention usually long before he says anything to me in the morning, it remains besides him until he is asleep at night, and it often takes the front passenger seat in the car
Even on little things, I find when I can walk away without being pulled too far into the dialogue/dance, it is much better. It is a challenge every time, and caution that the disengaging may provoke some accusations towards you – just be expecting some reaction to try and re-engage you.
Talk with an attorney – I found that to be an empowering conversation, and reassuring with regards to the whole custody issue. Don’t say you are going and doing bring it up during an argument when you are feeling hurt (made that mistake
Getting information does not mean you act on it. I would recommend not taking any big steps to change things, but just take care of the essentials. Let him have to adjust to the shifts in you. You have way too much on your plate right now to be acting based on what he is doing and saying … as hard as it is to disengage from the drama, helping yourself to do so will make you stronger to deal with it.
We all understand how hard it is, how exhausting it is, and to have to deal with it day in and day out while also dealing with other major life losses and changes … no wonder you feel like you can barely keep your head above water.
Re-read old posts when you are feeling in need of support. People here do understand and feel for you. Do you have any of the relaxation audios? A long warm bath? Go pick some flowers. A tickle fest if your kids are young enough to oblige. Whatever you need
MR
Hi MR,
Great to hear from you and great advice. Sorry to hear that you feel you are not succeeding. I wonder what it will take to bring down your husbands false pride? It sounds like he has built himself quite a castle in the air!
Our thoughts are with you.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
John,
So sorry that I have been off this list and didn’t respond sooner. As I mentioned above, my parents are crumbling … my first probable N (my mom, although dad may have traits too – I’m too close to really figure it out) is cognitively slipping and totally not getting that when my dad is in the hospitalized with serious heart stuff – it is not the time to act out to demand the center of attention. For another time – Narcissism, aging strokes and dementia.
Glad to hear that the neurologist did not find anything significant, and that they would explain to you that depression/anxiety can cause as much as you were experiencing. MDD NOS is really a dump category for doesn’t quite fit one of the standard types (rigidly defined by a set of criteria, but applied more loosely in reality)
If you have a chance, look at the website for Daniel Amen MD. He runs a commercialized marketed business, but has a lot of really good information as well. One his site are SPECT scans than will give you a picture to what can be under or over functioning in your brain – and how there are flavors of depression/anxiety and an overlap with the attention/concentration aspects of things. I offer this if it helps you to see that something is “real” in your brain, and that this is “fixable.” I would not share it with your wife if that would subject you to the “see I told you something was wrong and you are “messed-up.” ” I’ve heard it and it is neither supportive nor helpful
Also – look into some of the non-pharmacologic recommendations for addressing the symptoms you are experiencing. Many of these suggestions have been made by others on this site. Depending on your curiosity and comfort with reading medicalized articles, he provides a lot of research support for what is recommended.
Despite my being up way too late tonight, I would endorse strongly that getting enough sleep and trying to find a little time in the morning to prioritize in the morning helps. The confidence is tough when someone close is draining you and then reinforcing the mistakes you make. Not allowing them the power to do that is essential, but is a hard daily struggle. As I have said before, if you are not feeling ok about yourself it is harder. Try not to let this be a reason to judge yourself inadequate.
MR
Hi RD,
Thanks for your reply. I also feel that doing the tit for tat thing seems to work for the moment but eventually leads us back to where we started from . It is so hard to make my husband undersatnd my view point. I guess this a problem we all face here. Some times he is so nice but i feel he gets a bit insecure that he is losing control and starts to behave like an adamant child. I am trying to work on myself and not let our fights turn me into an emotional wreck. How have you been. Didn’t get a chance to read the following posts. I cant access this website from home. my husband even checks the web history!
S
Thank you Kim and MR for your words of advise! I am really trying to do just that – get my self together to deal with life however it turns out. I have been having such an awakening over the past few weeks dealing with the fact that he’s being so honest and real and in a non defensive non confrontational way. I have, for the first time maybe since we’ve been married, been able to openly and truly see things from HIS viewpoint. After 10 years of calling him selfish and unable to empathize I can’t believe that I’m actually responsible for those very traits as well. Although I am able to “feel” for him through hard times – when the hard times have to do with narcissistic bad behavior I have never really cared how he feels because I’ve been to busy trying to figure out how to cope, how to defend my boundaries, how to be strong, how to take care of the kids without falling apart, how to let go of anger… I never really imagined what it might be like for him to feel his own failure and then feel like he’s a failure to me and a big let down to our family. I never stopped for a moment to care of how alone he must have been. And now as I sit here at the end of this marriage it’s ironic that it took this rock bottom for me to stop trying to “deal and cope” with how these behaviors ruled our life – and I see I never dealt with ME!!! I have been content in saying that if he walks out the door it’s all on him and now I realize that was a good way for me not to have to be responsible for my part. I kept on with the disappointment that he was not a partner – but I wasn’t a good partner either!
I hope there’s a bit of hope for us, although I believe it’s too late. But I understand what I needed to do all along, and now I have no choice but to do it!
Thanks for your feedback,
Allison
Hello RD,
I am so in your boat right now. My life was okay without him, but I have a mental illness to. He would blame the things on the mental illness and then accuse me of just having it for attention. He would then say that I needed medications and he hated me when I didn’t take them. He would never take blame and spend his money like a fool. I think that to, that his new girlfriend is all that and she takes good care of him. I am his ex-wife who threatened and abused him. I am afraid she sees someone perfect to, and I am the only one who he treated like this. I wasn’t perfect and I am sure neither were you, but it sounds like you tried to help him. I mean, I don’t know about you, but when he lied to me, cheated on me, and treated me like a puppy on a string I became hurt then enraged. The question arises, How could he do this to me, Why does he treat me like this, Why does he blame all his problems on me. I started apologizing for everything bad that happened in his life because I felt guilty. He be like that isn’t your fault, why you apologizing then blame me for something else that did not go his way. I couldn’t be with him any longer either because I couldn’t trust him. I felt everything he said to me was a lie. He would do things that he knew would hurt me just so he would have a reason for me to act out. I hated him so much then I loved him so much. I am tired of the back and forth, and I just want to move on. I am in college full time and I start work full time some time in September. I am ready not to have to deal with him anymore, and look at this mess and walk away. I am tired of feeling guilty about his life, it is not my fault he can’t get a job, it is not my fault he blows his money on selfish gifts for himself, and it is not my fault if he goes homeless because he didn’t want to work. He is lazy and that is his fault, not mine. I am so afraid he is going to go homeless and have nowhere to go and leech onto me again and blame me for his problems. I know I am still not strong enough to say “No.” I make myself feel so guilty when I listen to him because he is so alone and pathetic. He is very handsome and he is more than capable of finding someone else. I hope this new fling works, so I can slither away without dealing with him.
Hi Kim and Steve: I’ve realized that the one I love has NPD and it makes me want to cry to read all the posts. He treats me worse than anyone, but I have allowed it. However, he borrowed money from me over a year ago and has made no effort to pay me back. Therefore I’m taking him to court. He may never speak to me again, but I have to do it to show him he can’t walk over me.
He really is crazy. He gets excited when other men make passes at me. Acts very loving, kissing, and then he flips to another person. I can’t figure out if he cares for me or not, but I do know he doesn’t treat any other woman any better.
MR
Good to hear from you. I have had a hard time accepting that this problem is as it is with some many twists to it.
In the last few days I’ve gotten some cd’s and listened to them..a coulpe with my wife who had some herself to watch. I seem to fit many of the criterias for depression.
My wife said for many years she has called me lazy and now realizes that is not the correct label for how I behave and act. It was a partial releif to hear that she actaully found in this something which was from her side.
All the tapes said that family and friend support is crutial in the repair of this issue. In a discussion I mentioned that I really didn’t know what reality was and lived in some sort of a fantasy world. She said that I WOULD know reality and I took this as some support.
IN the last coulpe days however whne I have mentioned that something she has said was NOT suuportive her response was she is not here to support me and that I am on my own in this. I mention that w/o this the realtionship will NOT have a chance and the response is “thats fine …I’m moving with my life and not geting caught up in your merry-go-round any more in MY life.
This doens’t sit well with me does not give any support to the present situation.
To be able to say these things and so harshly shows how much anger and resentment there is in her.
I am very confused and not sure hwo much of the depression is within his realtionship and what to do.
I know…one day at a time..however it seems this has madeMEthe problem and it is very difficult to express how I feel and what I need to get better here and now. I am told not here to make you feel betters.nothing wrong with me…you solve your own problems and leave me out of it.”
This is not a pleasant time.
john
Hi Jennie,
Yeah it’s crazy to deal with, as someone said, he “makes the rules and breaks the rules.” It’s almost like you can’t listen to them. I have a confession – I went back with my boyfriend and I NEVER thought I would do it again. And I’m kind of happy about it. I must be crazy, too. I really really didn’t think I’d ever do it again.
I am trying to make a life for myself, though. I went to new doctor and got a presciption for my mood disorder, and I may be starting another one for my social phobia, so I can get out more and have a life I might have a chance of enjoying. I’ve just been so isolated.
My “defecits” in these areas have really put me at a disadvantage with dealing with my boyfriend’s narcissism, too, as he’s hyper social while I try to hide.
But the medication is really helping me feel less anxious and to start to enjoy life again. I didn’t realize how depressed I had become, I felt like eating was a chore instead of something I enjoyed. It’s really nice to be enjoying things right now.
I did something good for myself tonight. I was expecting him to call so we could get together around the time I was finishing an Al-anon meeting I went to, and he didn’t bother to call (he is not good about following through) and I had a choice of going out with some friends after the meeting or going home, waiting for his call and I decided to go out.
And I had a nice time and I got an invitation to do something else soon that sounded like fun. So I didn’t let him control whether or not I had a nice night. That’s what I want to do. Try and build a life I can enjoy and feel good about myself in.
John,
Let me respond with a description of something that happened today which sort of walked me through the – ok, my husband is wrong for what he did, but through my reactions I can make the final outcome better or worse.
What your wife said was not supportive, but that does not mean she is never going to be supportive, or that you can not get yourself into a better place despite her provocative comments. Even when her comments enrages you, it doesn’t mean that is how she totally feels, but just what she said at that moment. Don’t let yourself believe you can’t be stronger, just because she says something hurtful, and you were hurt by it. You are not the whole problem, but changes you make can shift the whole system.
Today we were driving to take our boys to a fun activity. My husband had made several mistakes both in timing and direction, which just provides the background for his mindset. I responded to something he said, and he replied with “you are always saying something stupid, you are just such a stupid idiot.” This is a real flash point for me because it is being said in front of our boys, and this is a behavior patterns I am trying to prevent. Amongst other things, I said that his saying that is inappropriate and unacceptable, especially in front of the boys, and that it needs to stop. Pretty quickly I just disengaged … I was furious, and I was debating if it was worth the consequences and the expense to get a cab home versus just siting in the car for the next few hours.
I stayed quiet but angry for a while, but he did ask me to go and share in activity with our boys (tag teaming the adult who was supervising.) That helped lighten things, and later my husband was able to literally reach out for me and say something nice about the boys which I could see was his best way to trying to repair things.
Imperfect as my responses were, it was better that I said and did less. Later I can see that yes, he comments are very wrong, but convincing him of that in the moment was not going to happen, and was not necessary. That particularly hurtful comment is not the whole picture of who he is, and I need to remember that when I am disappointed.
Hope that perspective helps. It is always a challenge.
MR
Nice to hear from you. I have a ?????? in your response.
It feels to me that by not responding to all the harsh..hurtful…and deliberately said statements my wife makes I AM in control of myself and the outcome of the situation of the moment……..HOWEVER….I have a great deal of diffuliculty accepting the responsiblity of not only refusing to respond AND allowing these statements to be made time after time.
These statements are made in anger and also to attempt to get me to respond and start the issue of HER statement…NOT the situation at hand. By not addressing the statements I believe and know for a fact that she not only will continue with her actions but believes she has a right to respond in any way she sees fit. Any challenge is a control issue to her….but the reverseis NOT true.
I intend NOT to respond and have not felt or noticed any mention from her that the statements were “in the moment” and not meant in seriousness. By not having her accountable for her actions and statements I am allowing some of the very things which cause me tension and anger. I cannot live with ignoring the issues which affect me from her while trying to GET strong and getting myself to a better place. I feel by not ??????? or at least holding her accountable for these statements that I am in effect allowing her to “cry wolf” and never really know WHEN any of these statements are real and meant. I realize that I have made some of them come out and in reverse I do not retaliate by making things worse. I believe that is not the way to handle things…and with that thought believe the only reason of all the statements is to “get even” and have the conversation revlove aroung her and not the issue at hand.
Yes, there has been some support and many more times when I am told I am on my own….this problem is yours and you can figure it out.
I believe there are some areas which are out of bounds in arguements and but in this relationship there are no boundries and if one thing doesn’t affect me we go to the next and the next and the next until I either walk away or take the bait.
I appreciate what you say and your help is appreciated more than you know..just want you to see how I feel also.
I will try to impliment soem of your ideas in my recovery plans.
Thanks
peace
john
Kim,
I have been going through your products and have found them of great help. I am seeing improvement in my emotional and mental health, and certainly the “discouraged moments” are more quickly recognized and I am applying the principles I’ve learned to get my thinking and attitude where it needs to be.
I have a question for you, however, that I have not found answered in your materials.
My husband is very emotionally unresponsive to me and also physically unresponsive. He has no interest in sex and intimacy and refuses to talk about it. This began about 3 months after we were married and we have now been married 18 years. It is not due to my appearance as even when I was a long distance runner and weight lifter and in my early 30′s he refused sex. Of course, this has caused great pain, being married and not having my husband tell me or show me he is attracted to me.
How does this tie into the narcissistic personality? I feel quite alone as I do not personally know one other woman who has this problem. Most women complain about their husband wanting them too much…and I just sit there listening in pain.
He seems to like it when I initiate so that he has the oppertunity to act completely disinterested…so I’ve stopped initiating. Recently it was 2 years till I brought it up and tried again.
Any thoughts?
Hi Kay,
That must be incredibly hurtful to you and I really sympathize. I have heard of other women with this problem too but luckily I did not have that problem with Steve and sex was something we had as a plus in our marriage.
Because of this I can only use my intuition which says that I would really do some investigating if I was you. It sounds like sex is a gap for your husband and whether he is using porn, having sex with people other than yourself or has some fear or dysfunction, personally I think that knowing what the real issue is will make this much easier to tackle. You may find that a PI could help you get the answers you need. Then the personal bill of rights exercise in the Love Safety Net Workbook may help you force the issue out into the open.
I hope this helps Kay and I am really glad that you have had the sense to try not take this personally.
in response to the last 2 comments, i also experience the ‘cry wolf’ feeling. he says so many hateful things to me and his tetxts are so vitriolic that i have said one day i wont believe them but it will be true ! we booked an expensive holiday in january for next month and for the last 2 months 2 or 3 times a week he is telling me to cancel it. we are also sposed to be moving into a flat when we get back – so along with the holiday comments he threatens to cancel the flat. the irony is i already have somewhere to live (and will continue to keep this home as my son lives there)I also try not to respond but boy i can feel it building up that he gets such a eye opner when we get back from holiday. i have decied to just enjoy my holiday. if he kicks off – well he cant go anywhere – so i shall truely try and rise above it and i am so tempted if he ruins it with his selfish childish tantruns i will collect my car at the airport and leave him there !
Re physical affection, what a laugh, i have to beg steal and borrow every little kiss and hug in spite of his eye rolling. im not asking at the moment but feel so resentful. he isnt into that sort of thing he would rather be adored for his personality by his drinking colleages who by the way are so much closer to sussing him out simply because he is so selfish he never does anything with my friends so I am always with him and his friends and they see what he says and does. im not spending the rest of my life trying to keep the peace and being taken advantage of. he only makes an effort when he has caused a row and i disappear. im biding my time until my holiday. at my age i want to be adored not put up with and tolerated which is what i feel like no matter how much i compromise, how much i help him out and how much he gets his own way ……
Kay and Kim, thank you both for the last post. Kay, I am in the same situation as you currently so my heart goes out to you. I have also been studying kim and Steve’s material for the last year or so amd found it extremely helpful with my relationship. It has definitely got me back on track with my own feelings and I’ve baan able to deal with my own lack of self confidence and have recognized my codependence. I put spyware on my computer and cought my NPD BF on an inappropriate website, of which he completely denied. Even when presented with evidence…. (sigh) I have been able to deal with his NPD behavior, however, I still can’t figure out the lack of interest in sex. Kim, you are right. I have to get to the bottom of it however I can. I think I’m afraid of what I’ll find, but I’m really putting myself at risk if I don’t. Kay, please don’t think you’re alone and it sounds like you have good self esteem in spite of his disinterest. I struggled with that up until just recently. I think I’m on the right track though. I am going to revisit the workbook and figure out if I should hire a PI. Kim and Steve, thank you so much for all you do. You really saved me.
I am flat on my face again. I feel exhausted and my boyfriend’s behavior is extremely bad toward me. I feel so much hate toward him.
I am in the process of trying to end a relationship. What I find very fascinating is this. It seems to me the a person who is NPD has very little control over their emotions…OR they use emotion to get whatever reaction they want. My goodness. I have spent YEARS rationalizing myself out of feeling whatever negative emotion I felt in relation to my husband. Trying to understand. Trying to relate. Or just separating myself from my emotional state altogether just to function.
The reason I am leaving is because I am finally letting it be ok to feel what I feel. And, addressing it with the person who I started a relationship with BASED ON EMOTION. Like it or not, I imagine a fair amount of marriages are based on emotion and how we feel. The practical stuff is the kicker isn’t it? Real life? I have become pretty connected to my emotions and gained some strength from letting myself feel them finally. I still can function. I understand that the disorder part of anything has a lot to do with the inability to control WHATEVER. But, it still floors me that a person that is so driven by emotion still can have seemingly no understanding that others feel emotion too and it effects them, even in similar ways.
if I am going to be married, I cannot be so emotionally guarded anymore, without getting it in return to some degree. Or even equally unguardedness. As far as I can see, I don’t equalness in any degree. I’m pooped!
I had to take him to court to get money he owes me, and now I feel guilty. One day I want ot be rid of him and never see him again, and then I feel so sad because he is gone.
It’s funny how similar all of the posters here sound…and how similar the partners with NPD sound. I need help. I feel jealous and sad because I found a text from a young woman in my boyfriend’s phone.
He said he had been trying to set up his younger colleague with this girl (who was a bartender in a bar they went to together on an out of town work trip) and he gave out his phone number because his friend’s phone was dying. Sounds like a lie to me, but what can I do?
I have so many issues with my boyfriend, I had been thinking recently that I wanted to find a new man, someone who is stable and and that I can trust. It sounds SO nice to have a man I can trust and depend on. My life might be fun.
I don’t want to keep living my life like this, never knowing what I’m going to find or what’s going on behind my back. I hate this. And yet, at the same time, I can’t seem to let go of him. Every time I try to break up with him, it’s a different kind of hell. It seems like every position I take in this relationship is just a different kind of hell. And we aren’t even married. But he was my first love and is very special to me.
I guess if I am going to try and have a relationship with him, I am going to have to try and get over this jealousy so I’m not so tortured by him all the time, but I don’t know how to do that. I just start thinking about it, and it hurts.
Another thing is that he is always looking at other women when we are out, or “posturing” in response to them or exchanging deep intense glances with with them. It makes me feel beyond awful. Is there anything I can do about that? Does anyone have any advice?
I am extremely sensitive and pick up on everything that way, including when he watches tv and sees a woman he’s attracted to, it’s like all his attention is absorbed into the woman on screen. It feels really awful. Is that something he will ever stop doing? Does that have to do with attrachment?
Hi RD – Sorry I am flat out today as we are launching a new product this week.
Rule one about jealousy is DON”T ignore it. I don’t know which books of mine
you have but The Love Safety Net Workbook is vital now. Jealousy is sign that
your attachment is weak and in danger and that you DO care. Check out the
chapters on limiting abuse and building attachment.
I feel for you because jealousy is horrible but you can move past this …
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim!
Thanks for responding. I read your message last night before my boyfriend came over and I was really unhappy but I decided to try building attachment so I made myself smile and be really happy to see him when I opened the door (this is a huge challenge for me when i’m feeling sad.)
And then I made an effort over the course of the evening to say positive things and to smile at him, trying to communicate love through my eyes and thinking “you don’t have to do anything to impress me.” Reminisced about some special moments from our past when we were teenagers. He really responded well to this.
We had a nice night together, and then last night, for the FIRST TIME EVER since we’ve been seeing each other I had a good dream about us. I’ve had so many nightmares about us since we’ve been together. But in this dream we had a smaller conflict over similar issues (often it’s about jealousy/secrets) and we resolved it, and then I pointed at him and teased him about it from across the room later and he mouthed, “I love you.” It was very sweet.
It’s the first good dream I’ve had about us, so I take this as a positive omen about buidling attachment. Maybe I should try doing this with others in my life, too.
Cause I started thinking about how I’ve always had such a hard time with jealousy even when I was a kid. And I was thinking about my playmates I used to get jealous over and was wondering if my attachment style had anything to do with that.
I wish I had a study group here in my town so I could do this with other people. That would be so great to have a support group and go and read and discuss the material each week. I wonder if there is anyone else in my town who has found your program. It would be so great to have that kind of support. I imagine it would help me be stronger.
Kim and Steve,
I’d like to start a meet-up group for studying your material in my town. Can I do that? Can I use your names? What I would do is say I am starting study/support group for partners of people with narcissitic disorder who are interested in studying Kim and Steve’s Cooper’s program. I would use my copy of your materials to pass around and read during group time, but not copy them for anyone, they would have to purchase the material if they want their own copies to work on at home. What do you think? Has anyone else done this? I’d love to have other people to support me in person with working on this stuff in person. That would be pretty amazing!
Hey RD,
I am so sorry it has taken so long for me to get back to you. I am in school full time, work part time, and that is a lot of stuff to do. I understand why you went back to your guy. I would problaby go back to mine even after all the terrible things we have put each other through. I would hope I wouldn’t, but then again I do still love him. You know I always say sometimes the heart wants what the mind can’t explain. It sounds like you are doing good. I bet you keep following Kim’s advice things will keep getting better. I am doing really well, and I have been a lot less stress lately. I think David is gone, which is sad. However, I feel accecting of it instead of resentful. The abuse, the lies, the cheating, it was all a bit overwhelming. I wasn’t perfect either, and I should have been nicer too. It hards to be happy to see someone who hurts you and you feel bad about the way they have treated you. I was never happy to see David because I felt hurt by his words and actions. I would feel jealous that he would look at porn and pretty woman. I felt like he didn’t value me. I am not sure how I would say that to him now because he is with someone new. It is over, but I know there are things I would have changed. I would have told him my true emotions and feelins instead of masking it behind accusations and petty fights. I think we are afraid sometimes of the people who hurt us emotionally, so we block out they hurt us and we hurt them. I think we have have to face the hurt we feel cause of their actions, words, and gestures. We then have to accept how we feel and make ourselves feel better. We can’t ask someone to heal us. Kim’s advice is like medicine, we can take it or we don’t have to take it. Ultimately though, it is our choice whether we feel better or not. I have been in DBT and I have been learning about recognizing and accepting my emotions. No one can make us feel anything if we don not let them. I think once we recognize how we feel it gives us the power to change it and accept it if we can’t change it. I was very jealous and lethal with my tongue. I wanted to hurt him like he hurt me.
That would be wonderful if you could get it going. I am happy to help promote this in any way I can. If you let me know where you live I could also send your contact details out to anyone who lives in your area. I can sort my email list be towns and cities! Let me know if that would help (-:
Hi Kim and MR,
I haven’t posted here for a while because so much has been happening – I won’t go into the details of recent events because it is much more important for me to ask some questions that I have.
Firstly – Narcissism or NPD outlines that the person suffering from this disorder may behave publicly like a respectable person while being charming and confident, etc, but at the same time towards their own loved one(s) or family they behave abominably and destructively.
Since a Narcissist believes there is nothing “wrong” with them because “it’s you” or “it’s the rest of the world” – getting them to seek help in the first place is extremely difficult – and actually getting a diagnosis and successful treatment is even more difficult.
So it is left up to the loved ones to decide what to do – whether to stay or leave. But leaving may not always cut contact with the Narcissist as there may be ties that cannot be completely cut – such as children. If psychiatrists and psychologists with all their expertise and knowledge find it extremely difficult to deal with Narcissists, then it is a huge ask of a layperson – especially those who are intimately involved with them.
A reparative relationship may be the Narcissists best hope and even their only hope. However what indicators are there for the layperson (or loved one) to assess and evaluate (for their own safety) when they are dealing with perhaps more than Narcissism or NPD? Can other conduct disorders or mental illnesses co-exist with Narcissism or NPD, such as APD (Anti-social Personality Disorder), ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder), Bi-polar, Paranoia, Schizophrenia, Psychopathy, etc?
Secondly – my husband can easily detect fake behaviour in others. Is there another safe method of ending a marriage without behaving needy? If, for example, a narcissist has APD as well – does behaving needy work on that disorder as well? In my case if we parted ways we would still have to be in contact almost on a daily basis and if he sees that I was staging neediness to end the marriage – it would leave my integrity and honesty open to questioning.
Thirdly – I am alarmed at how many boxes I can tick with the theoretical syndrome of Malignant Narcissism – consisting of a combination of aspects of NPD, APD and Paranoia. One thing that Lisa Charlebois said was that narcissistic men tend to mellow with age – however my husband’s narcissism is worsening as does with Malignant Narcissism.
Fourthly – with Korsakoff’s Syndrome (from thiamine deficiency which is commonly found in alcoholics) – confabulation is one of the symptoms which is common to Narcissism. However my husband also has memory loss, tremors and apathy which are also symptoms of Korsakoff’s.
Lastly – how can I approach doctors to get real help either for my husband, and/or myself to be able to make informed decisions. Our family doctor has even said that during conversations with my husband (not in consultation though) where my husband says that the rest of the world is the problem and he is the real victim – after a while the doctor said he thought to himself “Well OK – he has a lot of trouble with a lot of people – but there is a common denominator here – and that is him (my husband).” But that is as far as the doctor went.
Got to go now,
Regards,
CD
P.S.
To those who are concerned about it – if you want privacy for your internet browsing you should have a facility on your internet browser where you can delete your browsing history. On Internet Explorer it is found in the “Safety” drop down menu as “Delete Browsing History”. Do this each time before you shut down from your internet browsing.
Hi Cd,
Great to hear from you CD, but I am sorry to hear that things are sounding so bleak.
Getting an accurate diagnosis is tricky and if you go back to the basics in “Back from the Looking Glass” this is why we stress it is important when building a support network that you are very specific about the behavior issues that are the problem rather than trying to make a diagnosis.
While I don’t deny that your husband may have more serious issues, and I think you are spot on that his drinking is a big part of his problems, I am concerned when you talk about malignant narcissism. This phrase was coined by Sam Vaknin and is NOT a real condition. Psychopathy and narcissism are very different and the underlying motivation different too. The narcissist wants to be admired where the psychopath wants to be feared. As I understand it, a psychopath may use charm as a means to their own ends but in the end they genuinely enjoy being sadistic where with the narcissist it is completely the other way around. The narcissist wants to be out drinking with his mates who adore him – or out with prostitutes etc. and if anyone tries to tie him (or her) down and hold them accountable they will be sadistic but the ultimate goal is to be adored.
Just like Sam I am not a doctor – but I do NOT re write the DSM and other medical text books to mislead people.
I think that building a support network is urgent for you now CD, as is bringing some light into your own world. Sam’s material is extremely dark and disempowering and if that is what you have been focusing on I hope that we can warmly welcome you back into the light and help you through this difficult time.
You have been such an incredible help and resource to others here and the very least I can do is offer my personal mentoring now in exchange for all of the help you have given others here from your big warm heart and from your incredible wisdom.
Alcoholism is a very sad and disabling condition and your husband very bad at admitting he needs help so the least I can do is be here to support you while you find the right help to support him.
Anyway there is no obligation for you to take me up on this offer and I won’t be offended If you choose not to but I would be truly honored if you did allow me to give you some help and support right now – it is great to hear from you.
You can contact me privately through our help desk at support@narcissismcured.com
Hang in there CD,
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
Thank you for your incredible words of wisdom and support – please be rest assured I have not defected to the SV camp and never will – I haven’t been back to his websites to read his material since I first started researching narcissism in early 2009.
I wrote a very long posting today which I cut short to be sensible and fair – but what brought me to your narcissismcured.com back in February (??) 2009 was a documentary on SBS Australia that alerted me to narcissism for the first time.
The documentary was about Jean-Claude Romand and I have never felt my body go so cold as that day when I listened to that documentary. So many of the behaviours of Romand (except for murder) reminded me of my husband and our situation, and when the narrator said that it was believed that Romand suffered from narcissism I immediately googled narcissism on the internet. I came across many sites to look at including Sam Vaknin’s but I believed and decided back then that something did not sit right about Sam. I do not subscribe to his sites at all and never will.
On the other hand I found that yours and Steve’s websites offered what I believed to be honest and real support for people from many perspectives – being that of the recovering or recovered Narcissist, his wife and family, and two accredited and experienced psychologists (and assumed that your nucleous group was perhaps supported by many more good people behind the scenes).
Everything that your program offered supported what I had learned through Al-Anon, but additionally it gave specific advice on what to do in certain situations. Al-Anon and other 12 step programs do not give advice, but offer some very powerful tools for the co-dependent to learn and use regarding acceptance while not accepting unacceptable behaviour, and tools for the recovery and growth of the co-dependent.
Your four legged stool is incredible, and for the last six weeks or so I have dedicated all of my spare time to working on the four legs more than ever (that is whatever time I have had after working!). Because there is a down-turn in our industry I have had to make work a priority over everything else. So I have also taken time out from regularly posting here, but I have logged in almost daily to keep up to speed with how others are going. I wrote several times to different ones but did not post because I would cut off before finishing when my conscience reminded me I should be working. I also felt like I had hit a wall and needed to concentrate on myself and my own situation urgently.
In one of your responses to someone who posted on narcissismdailymirror.com you had stated there is a difference between narcissism and NPD – and when I looked each of these up on en.wikipedia.org – I also came across “Malignant Narcissism” and it cited this term/disorder as having first being coined by social psychologist Erich Fromm in 1964 – and yes it is only theoretical or an “experimental diagnosis” at this stage according to the DSM of Mental Disorders. There is a further note on this webpage about psychoanalyst Otto Kernberg and his work regarding personality disorders – Kernberg first proposed Malignant Narcissism as a psychiatric diagnosis in 1984. I have not followed through to see how or when Sam Vaknin would claim to have coined “malignant narcissism” first – but it would not surprise me if he did – even if he was not entitled to.
Also this might seem silly to some – but another reason why I have been quiet lately is because our hearts were broken recently when our beautiful 15 year old golden retriever had to be euthanised on 27 July – I was alone with her looking after her in her final few hours and it was awful what she went through during that time(several strokes). My husband, who was very attached to her also, refused to come home at first to help me get her into the car to take her to the vet – he did not want to face reality I guess – which I can understand. Our daughter came to my aid before my husband did. My daughter and I and her young children were all crying and distressed. I stayed with our sweet old girl during the euthanaise, but my husband could not. She was a much loved member of our family, and was a perfect example of unconditional love – and I miss her so-o-o much! Nevertheless she was pretty much healthy right to the end except for arthritis and those last few horrible hours. She was an icon around our town – loved by everyone – and it is simply amazing how many people have offered their condolences to us because they knew first hand what a lovable character she was!
But back to the present – thank you so much for offering your personal support – I cannot express my appreciation enough to you -and I may contact you privately over the coming months as I am very concerned about who and what I am dealing with in my husband – I am perhaps too trusting at times and need to learn when to replace my naivety with caution or even action.
I’m hangin’ in there!
CD
Hi CD,
So sorry to hear about your dog. That must have been really heart breaking and I bet you would have liked your husbands help through that. I believe you are exactly right however that he is at present unable to face this type of anxiety causing reality. You are seeing the truth now which is that you are much stronger than him!
Thanks for letting me know malignant narcissism isn’t Sam’s term – I guess I must have just assumed that because of his book title.
It really sounds to me like it is time that you bring your husband’s “house of cards down”. Understanding is one thing but valor, including the valor in protecting yourself, is also a virtue.
The truth is that Steve might be happy where he is now but it took him being on the brink of being thrown in jail (by people he could see really didn’t want to throw him in jail but would) if he didn’t drop the act and admit he wasn’t the big shot he was pretending to be. The crime he was charged for and which had him in all this trouble was not direct violence either but instead him verbally threatening me. It was my word against his but I am glad Steve had the sense not to lie and say it didn’t happen because I know if he had done that they would have really thrown the book at him. As it was he was still made to come back three times to the court and was still charged and put on a bond. It was only really through this time I began learning from the policeman I met (the first good one after meeting many bad ones), that I had to learn to self soothe and I couldn’t get so upset around the courts and the police. It was later again that I began to study emotional intelligence.
So I guess I learned limiting the abuse first and then self soothing. It would have been much easier for me to get help sooner however if I had known how to self soothe first.
I also got a shock when I was in ‘the victim’s room’ in court, first I was shocked that this is what they called it and second that this is where I was. I was surprised because I considered charging Steve very courageous of me and I really didn’t like being labelled a victim and so I determined there and then I was not going to stay in that place but instead was going to overcome this and be victorious!
I only mention this because you have done a massive amount of ground work CD – but I also suspect that limiting the abuse is the leg of the stool which really needs your attention now. It is the scariest and hardest for most of us I think and often people only find the courage when their partner forces them to it.
An acquaintance in our circle of friends started pumping Steve’s ego earlier this year (while subtly putting me down) and it scared me how long it took me to see it and that Steve’s old arrogance and disregard for us DID start to creep in again.
To his credit Steve was the one that did see it after a few weeks (and a couple of fights) before I had figured it out – but that may have been easier because the person in question had gone away.
Anyone who your husband gets away with complaining about other people to (as you mentioned he attempted to do around your doctor), is a bad influence and he really in fact needs protection from. You see he only does this around people he feels inferior to and who he feels he needs to impress. His AA meeting IMHO are therefore probably a real danger zone. I also have a hunch that your husband may be to a point where he is feeling this way around most people.
So if his behavior and drinking is affecting your life and the business you share as dramatically as I imagine, I would certainly consider talking to the police and also a lawyer about your options. To me divorce is the LAST issue you want to tackle. This is the one move you can make that signals rejection and is the one most likely to cause a desperate or violent reaction (or long term hostility) – as he could feel perhaps that he has his back to the wall and nothing left to lose. I have a feeling your husband knows he is much more dependent on you than he admits.
If instead he was told in no uncertain terms (and with a support network around you) that he needs to get into a proper alcohol detox center and dry out (and you support this program with proper supplements and nutrition brought in for him) or else he will face jail or having to relinquish his role in the business (everyone can be replaced!) this may be the rude shock that he needs while also seeing that you are not in fact rejecting him but actually giving him a way to escape the pressure and ‘save face’.
His alcoholism and behavior are probably grounds enough for your forcing his options in this way without attempting to get a diagnosis that may end up working against his chances of recovery rather than helping.
The alcohol cannot be helping and a live-in detox center is going to probably be the first step in him being assessed anyway. I am also sure that his dignity would prefer this to a psych ward or jail and when the time comes you may need to mention this to him.
I know it is very scary and tough to plan big moves like this – but when I was finally ready for this with Steve it was only out of complete desperation and because I had no where else in the world to turn but to the police and to my own strength. I am glad now that this was the case as I know if I did have other people to turn to back then this problem wouldn’t have got solved. In a similar way, we can only support you so far but in the end it is you who will need to find the courage to put a support network together and confront your husband’s dark side and conquer it.
I think you are more than strong enough to do this now CD and for all that he fights you, I know that your husband is probably exhausted and deep down probably longs to surrender and be taken care of for awhile so he can heal and have the pressure off. Feeling inadequate and that he constantly has to prove himself must be one a hell of a place to live. I also believe that if you don’t engineer this type of ‘breakdown’ for him he will probably end up having a break down anyway and without a plan and support in place it will be much harder for you to protect yourself, your business and your family from going down with him.
I wonder if you have been following our launch which is on at the moment? If not please go and have a look here;
http://www.biggestrelationshipkiller.com
I think you will enjoy the movies you will receive when you subscribe there.
Anyway it is really good to hear from you – I must admit I was concerned when we didn’t hear from you for awhile and while
I am sorry to hear that things are so tough I hope we can help you through this – blue skies tomorrow!
Kim Cooper
http://www.BiggestRelationshipKiller.com
CD, were you ever on a support group online called Voicelessness?
Hi Kim,
Thanks so much for all of your support – it has given me so much food for thought and I will need to get my head around how I could apply each piece of advice to my situation.
But just quickly (or not so quickly??) – I am making every effort to be as realistic as I can be without protecting my husband by glossing over things that shouldn’t be glossed over, but also without painting a picture that he is more than what he is with respect to any unacceptable behaviour – in other words I am trying to assess the situation as honestly as I can in order to be as strong and believable as I can be when seeking support from authorities and others and, of course, from yourself whose judgement and experience I value highly.
The law in our industry is such that if my husband was not actively involved in our business – by death, disablement, absence or bankruptcy – then our business would have to shut down immediately and the contract indemnity insurance companies would move in and take over completing our contracts. The insurance co’s would then sue us via our personal assets to recover the costs of completing the contracts even though our business operates under a company structure. Any suits by insurance companies in this way would be financially crippling to us personally. I have been making moves to shut down our business for quite some time now so we would not be affected in this way because I can see that my husband is burnt out, and neither of us deserve to be destroyed financially at this stage in our lives while trying to get help for him.
All these years I have felt that even though he has delivered the goods to the highest of standards, that he may be feeling inadequate in a lot of areas of being in charge of so many people and so much responsibility. Although not always emotionally intelligent, he is otherwise a highly intelligent man but has little value of himself because he was low achieving in his school education (for a number of reasons including dyslexia and family issues). My husband’s current level of education (regarding our business) has therefore been earned and achieved more through life experience and sheer determination rather than through formal education. He fears schooling or rather failure to succeed in education. This became evident when he failed a unit in a (non-business related) course he did some 16 years ago – his reactive behaviour wasn’t very pretty and the loathing towards his examiner for failing him was unbelievable. Our son shook his head and told him to get over it – that we all fail something from time to time and we just have to try again if that is what we have to do (I was very proud of him for showing – as a young teenager – more emotional maturity than his father!).
For all the years we have been in our business (which he was forced into by his father) he (narcissistically) rages whenever he stuffs-up, is out of his depth, out of control, let down or embarrassed by others.
Because our contracts last for 8 to 12 months and must be finished on time there is no appropriate time to send him off to rehab unless our business shuts down. Once the contracts are signed they cannot be cancelled and we are currently signed up for the next 12 months. Without contracts we cannot keep our full time staff in continuous employment. I can see that a break down will eventually happen and I feel that in order to set the stage for heavy duty action I must get us in a position where I will not have to deal with additional problems with the law courts from clients sueing us via their indemnity insurance companies for breaches of contracts due to my husband’s inability to complete them. I also want to set our full time employees up that they transition to another employment status where any significant change to our business will not affect their continuous income or ability to go and work for others if we are no longer operating. This move will also be better for them in the long run because they will need to be self-employed eventually because the reality is that we will have to finish our business one day whether it is through retirement, marriage breakdown, or nervous breakdown by either myself or my husband. Our current business is built on us being a team. I can operate in my fields on my own – but my husband fears he cannot because he is not computer literate – which is a gap that I am again making moves for him to face. (Unfortunately last time – 18 months ago – TAFE enrolment staff put him straight into Word Processing rather than a very basic beginners course for introduction to computing as requested – I was however amazed at how much he did learn in between the his explosions about how all teachers are DH’s because they go too fast!).
So every day since March 1983 my husband gets up early and goes to work – he is an extremely hard worker – he never takes a sick day off – in fact he rarely gets sick nor complains/shows visible signs of being hung-over even though he drinks daily to excess and much more than a safe level. It is simply stunning how anyone can do that day after day and still deliver such a high standard of work and output. From my point of view (and perhaps his) it is therefore difficult to convince him or others that he has a an addiction to alcohol – however he does know it is causing him problems but he won’t give up his anaesthetic, pleasure and pain (victimhood) – it is self-feeding. He has never found his way into AA, and I do agree with you that the first and best place to get him to is rehab. I will research what facilites are available in our area – and what is required for admission if the opportunity arises.
Trying to be as candid as I can – I believe my husband has tried to impress everyone for as long as I can remember by putting others down, puffing himself up, doing extraordinary things for others and so on. There doesn’t seem to be any select people among our regular acquaintances and friends that he ups the ante of trying to impress. He is however impressed by wealth and therefore wealthy people, and one of his worst times of narcissistic behaviour was when he was contracting with wealthy people – some of whom are related to us. He equates wealth with success and being in the circle of wealthy people. It was during this bad time that I found your website – and since then and with a huge learning curve I have tackled many issues including this one. Although I could not cut off this liaison because they are relatives – I did discuss the changes in my husband with him and how rudely he was treating me and our family and other clients while jumping as high as he could the wealthy ones. He pulled his head in. In the short term, I think I might have more success in finding ways to tell him that people are not impressed when he is putting others down to them, but that they are more impressed when he is just himself. If I have success in that way, then it may be easier to define those who should be cut off if the problem still exists.
So basically what I am trying to do is to set things up mainly to protect myself from as much fallout as possible by firstly reducing what I have on my plate to deal with. I feel that I will then be better positioned physically, mentally and emotionally to bring in the heavies to address the underlying issues without collateral damage to our clients, suppliers and business colleagues etc (and this would be a large circle of affected people in our town). I also want to be able to live my own life as fully as possible – as this disorder has stolen so much of it already – and if necessary to be self-supporting by following my own career as best as I can under the circumstances. So I am taking action but it will take me a little longer to get there.
Thanks so much again Kim – I will visit your new website hopefully later today – but right now I have some clients to meet with later today some 60 kilometres away and I must get organised.
Looking forward to those blue skies!
CD, Australia.
Hi Laura,
No, I haven’t.
Cheers
CD
I wrote a poem because I love poetry. People tell me t is a dead art, but that is their opinion. I wrote this to my love whom is gone. Maybe, it will find similiar broken hearts and sitiuations. I thank RD for always responding when she can. Here goes, what I feel in short poem. I hope that is allowed here to share expressions in different ways.
In Love With A Lie
People tell me to forget you,
Your friends tell you not to contact me after all we have been through,
My heart bleeds every time I think you are with someone new,
I try to stop bringing up your name,
I feel a hundred different emotions, but they all feel the same,
My broken heart won’t let me let you go,
Our unstable history every one does know,
I can’t talk to you now,
Even if I could I wouldn’t know how,
Why can’t I accept your goodbye,
Our whole relationship was lie after lie,
You left me for another,
I thought we could count on each other,
I ask if you would leave me if you found someone better,
You went silent before you answered me further,
Then you lied and told me, “No”,
Of course after that lie you broke up with me for your ho,
Some silly twit,
Who won’t understand you one bit,
Why did you bother to waste my time,
When you would turn on a dime,
Go listen to your friends who know so much about us,
Make a new relationship with the twit, do what you must,
Tell them all the horror stories you can about me,
How I hurt you and wouldn’t set you free,
Although it kills me inside to walk away,
A hundred emotions with nothing left to say,
I couldn’t stand to be with you anymore,
I never wanted to see you again after you shut that door,
Listen to you lie to my face about your little whore,
I felt guilty to make you tell me goodbye,
But I can’t live in a relationship that is lie,
I hate that I still love you,
Oh God, I really do hate to love you,
I wish I could just forget,
That way I wouldn’t have this much regret.
CD,
I need to copy and read you last postings in depth before responding too much, but first and foremost I echo Kim’s saying that you have been a strength to others and have made huge progress in yourself, so do not forget this when feeling bleak. Your first Sept posting sounds like hope is dwindling for you. Remember you are not trying to get him to recognize his narcissism, just to recognize that the ETOH use is hurting himself and/or things he wants.
Is there a way to do an outpatient or “partial hospitalization” treatment that will allow your husband to keep working enough to maintain your business obligations while still sheltering his environment enough to allow his system to clear itself? Would he accept the challenge of a limited max intake (for what ever reason would best sell the idea?) Has he ever used disulferam or naloxone (for ETOH not just opioids)? Acupuncture also has evidence of benefit.
As flawed as the current DSM is, it is a standardized starting point for descriptive discussion … Most of the other diagnoses you mentioned Oppositional Defiant Disorder (forget this one – it is just a childhood descriptive diagnosis that can, but need not develop into other things) Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia (also Anxiety disorders and depressive disorders) have an exclusion clause that the behavior is not better explained by another cause (including acute intoxication and to have both diagnoses together one must have the symptoms in the absence of ETOH or prior to using ETOH. Paranoia is a symptom of many disorders, and when mild without other symptoms doesn’t necessarily mean any major disorder exists. Personality disorders (narcissistic, antisocial, etc) are much fuzzier, have much symptom overlap with other diagnoses, but are viewed as a separate entity that often does co-exist. My experience with Korsakoff’s is of far more impairment that you have ever mentioned … more minor memory issues are likely reversible over time without ETOH (although any lost time usually remains lost)
Will his doctor help support a strong recommendation for some sort of ETOH treatment? Can someone other than you (ie physician, other family member, respected employee help him to see the risks/losses of continued high ETOH use (stroke, anyeurism, cholesterol and diabetes, risk of legal action and financial loss if injury/manslaughter occurs while he is driving impaired. (There are devices which keep a car from starting if breathalizer level is too high.) Can a network of people reinforce these issues? Often if someone else can get an individual to verbalize both the positives and negatives from continuing an addictive behavior – hearing the negatives from their own mouth helps to move along the process to remission (and recovery if that is possible) Use any little moments of self-recognition and insight you ever recognize.
MR
CD,
I want to apologize because I don’t want to sound as if I have any real idea how to make things better, because I don’t. I have learned it is a constant struggle and both the good and the bad times cycle, and in the middle of the hard times it is easy to feel almost hopeless. Everyone one this site knows how many times you are questioning and re-questioning if it is worth it to keep trying, because the N can never reinforce your reality of your relationship. You have encouraged others (myself included) to practice not responding and getting pulled into the provocation. Are your husband’s lack of involvement or difficulties lately an attempt to get you to react, an attempt to make you the “problem?” Is he trying to make you feel you are doing something wrong by working towards closing things down (when in fact he knows you are right, but it is easier and more empowering to criticize.)
Remember our spouses insecurities drive much within them, although they can never acknowledge or recognize this (I wish I could really learn this myself.) I hope you can explore your options, seek as much support as you can, yet keep in mind that the rough patches pass.
MR
Hi MR,
Thank you for both of your responses – there is absolutely no need to apologise – I am so appreciative of any feedback or advice you may give to me at any time. It is important for all of us here to receive support from those who understand and have experienced first-hand the difficulties that arise living with and loving someone who is afraid to trust or get close to anyone.
I am unable to take any time at the moment to answer your questions – so I will catch up as soon as I can. I am feeling quite calm about everything most of the time regardless of whether it is a good cycle or a bad cycle. The cycling is about every two or three days now which is mentally, physically and emotionally draining. It would have to be related to his anxiety, he does not accept change easily and any changes I make regarding our business structure must be sending his brain into a whirlpool of anxiety. I need to find ways to reassure him that what I am wanting to do is good for the both of us in the long term. He refuses to go away on holidays with me and he wants to work until he dies. I don’t want to work until I die if I don’t have to – but if I don’t separate our working lives I will be stuck working horrendous hours with him and if I continue working at that pace my life will be cut short and I will not have had much fun. There is another very important factor as to why I want to finish up our current business structure which I will elaborate on when I have more time available.
Got to go now – I hope you and your boys (including your hubby) are going well – I think of you often and how you are doing – when things get bad just remember where we have been and how far we have both come – and that is a long way! And you are right – the bad times always pass.
Cheers,
CD.
Just came across this and wanted to share … it seems to hold some truth. (Kim, if you need the source let me know.)
“In this morning’s group session one of our members abruptly announced he was going to take a three month trip across country with his wife and would be leaving group. Members were astounded as we have a guideline that when someone is going to leave they pick a date, and give advanced notice so we can go through a compete process of saying goodbye. This entails giving and receiving direct feedback, settling any leftover conflicts etc so the ending will feel and be complete. I have been through this process many times with clients and I have noticed over the years that the way people end, in essence how they deal with loss, is quite predictive of how their life will go in the future.
How we cope with endings, how direct or indirect we are in our communication says a great deal about our ability to maintain closeness, intimacy and friendship. Rob is a very good person but highly self critical despite being enormously successful in his business, which is why he can afford to take such long vacations. He has suffered, by his own admission what I call “The Curse of the Capable”. He masks his insecurity and vulnerability through his achievements. This method has worked for him in business but certainly not in marriage and with the relationships in his life.
Rob’s inability to let people know in advance that he was leaving fits with a number of difficulties he encounters in his life. He had difficulty telling his dying father that he loved him, he has difficulty telling his adult children how much he cares, turns his head away from whomever he is addressing when he is saying something positive that could bring about an intimate feeling. He struggles, in essence, with the fear of not being good enough in the eyes of others. He has difficulty taking the chance of being vulnerable, a necessary step to maintain intimacy, because of his irrational personal story that views vulnerability as exposing weakness and insecurity. He was afraid he would disappoint people if they knew in advance of his departure, he didn’t have the faith in himself to believe he could state his intentions and emerge with a positive rather than a negative outcome. Ironically we are all happy for him that he is finally leaving work and making a giant step to enjoying life.
He told the group that he thought we knew he was leaving since he had mentioned on different occasions about taking such a trip. He mentioned that he had this conversation in his head so many times it felt like it actually took place. Another common dynamic of those who are preoccupied is that they have meetings in their minds so often they start to act upon these meetings as if others actually attended. The other result of being preoccupied is a person like Rob thinks about a particular issue so much they expect others to appreciate their efforts and understand their needs when do they finally let others in on their obsessive thought process at its conclusion. One of the women he has helped considerably told him she was very disappointed that he did not have the concern to inform us, or have the trust in group members to let us in on his plans. Another member, a fellow business owner who has felt considerable camaraderie with Bob, echoed her sentiment but added, “I think below the surface Rob you are a very selfish man, I think you tend to want things your way and don’t consider how you affect other people”.
I interjected at the end of the meeting that I think there are in fact, two kinds of selfishness. One is based on truly not caring about people, individuals who are narcissistic by nature and use other people simply for the self interested function they have. The other, particularly for people who suffer from The Curse is based on being preoccupied. Rob is not a good listener for instance; he is often planning his response as a person is talking to him. He is so worried about his image that he is rehearsing his response rather than listening. Like many who are preoccupied his memory and concentration are compromised which leads to people close to him feeling un-important and not heard. People, like group members, end up feeling that he is self centered and selfish. I think, through knowing Rob for some time, that this is a surface explanation and does not speak to the anxiety he is experiencing on a deeper level. He is not a man who does not care; he loves his wife, his children and truly cares about group members. His preoccupation however, a common dynamic among achievers, makes his relationships less than satisfying. The irony is that when he relaxes, pays attention, gets involved beyond himself, people find him loveable and kind. Rob must change the old story in his mind that says love and respect is dependent on achievement to the realization that achievement is important in life but ultimately without the relationship skill of empathic listening life will always feel like something is missing.
As group ended we could all see Rob felt awful, several people encouraged him to continue phone sessions with me and to not perseverate on the negative comments exclusively. He certainly had a strong tendency to cement criticisms in his mind. As I walked out of group with him, everyone was waiting in the parking lot. They all hugged him individually and made him make eye contact. As he walked away with tears in his eyes, I asked him how come he didn’t hug me. He returned, looked directly at me, and gave me a huge hug and said “ I wish I had the courage to let people in more, I am still afraid of the outcome, guess I just didn’t want to feel vulnerable, I love everybody in this group, including you”. As I walked away I said to myself,” This is not a selfish man!”
Hi Kim,
I am in a very complicated position right now. Some advice from you will be of great help. I live in a different country to my parents. They have come to visit us for 2 weeks ( 1 wk gone and 1 still to go). As always my N husband started to behave in an odd way. He does not talk to me properly and nor to my parents. Without saying any thing he had made it quiet obvious to me and I guess also to them that he dislikes them and they are not welcome. It has become so difficult to hold a normal conversation with him as he finds every single thing offensive . I tried to speak to him last night and he just believes that if he is present my whole world should revolve around him and even if we are out some where I should stand next to him and not mingle with my parents. He said he dislikes them and the words he used were so bitter. He has done this with every person who has been close to me. I told him that if he has some problem with my parents behaviour then we can talk it out. But he got so enraged with that and started to blame me for everything. That I am creating a scene while they are here so that I can portray a bad picture of him. We have been married for 4 yrs and together for 6. I told him I have not said a word about his behaviour to any one but now I have to tell my parents about what our relationship is like (especially because last few months every time we have had a fight or a disagreement he has been giving me ultimatums that he does not want to live with me). And again last night he did the same. If I say a word to my parents our relationship is over and he will never want to see me again. He is trying to make me choose between him and my parents. Kim I am so exhausted and emotionally drained right now. I think now its time for everything to come out in the open. I am so scared that he might not want to live me. But I have no other option. Do you think that’s a good idea to involve my parents into this. I am so sacred of how my husband is going to react. I know he is scared too. I could see in it in his eyes .. the fear of been exposed but I don’t know if he is putting on an act just to discourage me from talking to my parents about his abusive behaviour or he is taking this as an opportunity to blame me for the end of our relation if he decides to do that. Please send me some advice Kim. In a few hours from now I do not know what turn my life is going to take. I do not know if I have it in me to battle this out.
S
Hi Kim,
My husband just called and first he was casually speaking but then he again started over last nights discussion. I tried to keep calm and told him we can talk about everything at home (we both are at work right now). And once again he got so angry and said that if I say a word to my parents then our relationship is over. And I can take this as a threat. He believes that I am finding reasons to leave him. I calmly even said that I am only trying to do the right thing. I want to live with him but this behaviour cant go on for any longer and he is free to think what he wishes. For once I want to a decision on my own and not feel sacred by his threats. I think this is the showdown. My parents will support me 100% in everything. That’s the only strength I have. But when they leave I don’t know what I am going to do.
S
Hi S,
I have found it very common for narcissistic people to try and keep other people from talking to each other. Sometimes it is because they don’t want their lies exposed and sometimes it is because they fear people talking badly about them behind their back.
While I don’t think you should let him intimidate you this way I also wonder what can be achieved by talking to your parents? If they take sides then it is a war I guess and your husband is obviously not got the resources within himself to deal with that and so he will probably run away. I also worry that your parents will worry but wont know what to do.
I wonder if there is someone else you can start building your support network with? Could you talk to his doctor or someone with influence in his life? You may also consider a local family support councellour? In this way you could say “I don’t want to drag my parents into this and so I won’t talk to them but it is not OK that you keep threatening me and I am concerned about you have become very intimidating and controlling and I have talked to our doctor because I want you to get some help.” If he explodes in anger again you can say “I don’t want a divorce and I hate that you keep threatening to leave me but I am not going to pretend you are OK when you are not because I am worried about you.”
If he wants to keep yelling you need to let him know that you will listen to him when he has calmed down and will speak to you with more respect.
I obviously can’t promise that he won’t run away but you do need to limit his controlling behaviour while also trying to let him know that he is safe.
I hope this helps and you can try and figure out if this is him being scared of your parents rejecting him or if he is looking to create and excuse to leave because he is having an affair with someone else?
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
Thanks for replying back. From what I have observed in my husband he is very critical and judgemental about people and that is probably because he feels people are doing the same to him. If two people laugh at distance he feels its about him. If I am on the phone to my mum he feels I have been scheming things and my parents brainwash me against him. They reason I need to tell them everything is that they are already worried. They can sense it and I always kept changing the topic so that my husband does not have to face any embarrassment. But now the boundaries are crossed. He has been behaving in a very immature manner. I have been to counselling a few times. Even the counsellor had suggested that I speak to my parents and I do not know too many people in this country. My husband does not approve of me to see the counsellor. I don’t know if you can remember a post that I had put in few months back that I cannot even look at my husband in the eye and speak. My lips tremble the second our eyes meet . He always has that intimidating look. I have been working a lot on my anxiety issues. But his temper at times is out of control and when this happens my nervousness comes back. I feel I really need some family support. And the words that you have given me Kim I have already said all this. Every time he has threatened to leave me he said call you father if you want and tell him that we don’t get along and tell them how bad I am.. I always said that what you just wrote.. “I don’t want to drag my parents into this and so I won’t talk to them but it is not OK that you keep threatening me and I am concerned about you have become very intimidating and controlling and I have talked to our doctor because I want you to get some help.”. He had even agreed to go to an anger management program and said that he realises he has issues. But a few days later made it point blank that he is perfectly fine and his anger is because of the mistakes I make and he does not want to go to any program as it me who is the reason for all this. I don’t think that he has an affair(all of us feel the same until we find out). But I say this because I feel that he does fear losing me (at least for now). So I feel that he does not have anyone to fill the space. He also said that we should just keep all this between us and try and be together as long as we can. I was quiet shocked to hear that “as long as we can”. When he feels its enough he will end the relationship? what if some someday he has found someone and come and tells me that this is the end? Considering all this Kim I feel my parents should know. I am just not sure how to handle my husband after this. I dont really want to hurt his feelings
S
Hi S,
Yes certainly if you want to tell them do. I just think you need to be ready to suggest what help that you need and also have other people in your support network. Have you spoken to the police or your doctor? It is extremely important that you build this network and that he knows about it.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi S,
I am certainly not an expert in what to do or say – Kim’s advice is extremely good. One thing I do know is that people who are emotionally insecure and immature will use emotional blackmail to manipulate and control their loved ones in order to keep them “close”. They do this by using weapons such as ultimatums, put-downs or criticism – or any other method of control – and it is usually finely tuned to your insecurities.
One thing I believe is certain – you cannot afford to allow the fear of abandonment to consume your thoughts and emotions – it will cloud your thinking and judgement – you must pursue what is right for you – and abusive controlling behaviour towards you is not right for you.
It sounds like you have already made your parents aware of your predicament – and I agree with Kim – your parents may feel quite helpless to help you while you are with your husband – that there is a limit as to how much they can do. They sound like loving parents and no doubt they will be there for you if your marriage ends – and that will be worth it’s weight in gold.
You sound like a very emotionally intelligent young lady – and this may be ONE of the things your husband is most attracted to. While he knows that you are afraid of losing him – he will use this as currency to hold on to you by threatening to leave you if your do this or do that. He wants what you have – and he wants you – trust that. You can afford to call the shots while telling him that you love him and will not leave him – but you will not accept unacceptable behaviour.
I believe you can go for broke – and he will not leave you. However, if he does leave you – you do have your loving parents to support you through this – and others here on this website. Be at peace with yourself and how you expect to be treated, and accept no less than that – and you will lead the way to those who want to be with you and to love you.
CD, Australia.
Hi Kim/CD,
I told my parents the day I last wrote to you. This did not go well with my husband , he did not agree to speak to any one and was angry with me that he now has to face the shame. He called me a F******g selfish b***c and yelled at me loudly and my parents could hear every word. My parents had to take the initiative to start the conversation with him. He put a lot of blame on them for his dislike towards them and on me for his anger. He also said to my mom that they can take their daughter with them and go. My mom then said that if they have to take me then will go through the legal process…Now he knows that he is exposed and if makes a wrong move the cops will be at the door.. this I think scared him a bit. He just said that he is trying to work on his anger issues and will try to control it. But it wasn’t very convincing. Now he is feeling that my parents will convince me to leave him that they have now seen his abusive behaviour firsthand. He is now trying to convince me in every way that he will never verbally or physically abuse me… but at the same time he also said that I will repent later if I leave him as I will never be able to find so much love. This morning I spoke to him and calmly told him that if he tries we can make this work. But the boundaries are set and he cannot cross them. He can take the day to think and I will speak to him in the evening. I told him he is a matured adult and knows what is what he should and shouldn’t do. He needs to think and make the choices that he feels is correct and then we can talk tonight. To be honest Kim/CD I feel he is not capable himself to fix his anger problems. But I want to make clear to him that he needs to go to some anger management program and he cannot keep delaying it or saying he does not need it. I don not have any diagnosis for him from anyone that he is narcissistic He knows he has issues but he needs help to deal with it. He is a very narrow-minded person with rigid views and extremely possessive. He needs to understand that not every one around him is evil and people will not always say what he thinks and if a woman get married she does not have to be cut off from rest of the world. He always wants people to treat him like he is the only one who knows what’s best. What sort of counselling is appropriate from him other that anger management? If at all he is willing to take a step?
S
Hi S,
You have made amazing progress but you will not be able to count on him fixing himself or even outside help working with this. Personally I would say that you don’t want to leave and that you will give him 4 months. You need to let him know (and know yourself) that him never losing his temper again is unrealistic. You need to be very clear however that threats and intimidation will result in you contacting your family or the police from now on and he will need to discuss the situation with them and not you as you do not know how to handle him when he is like that. As for him losing his cool I think what you need to do is figure out how often this happen at the moment and be clear about that and also what progress you think reasonable. You could say “You are losing your temper nearly every day lately – let’s see if you can get it down to once or twice a week within the next month? After that I would like to see you working towards it being only 1 or twice a month.” You can say that you have no desire to shame him but that people need to face their own shame to get better and you hope that he will have the courage to do that. Personally I would also make a chart to show him that you will track his progress.
OK I gotta run and I am sure if CD is around she will also have some wonderful advice. You are doing very well and as scary as this is really you are at a point where some really great changes can happen but you must be very tough and very positive and more than anything believe in your own strength and ability to lead the way now. I only realized it had to be me after anger management classes had been a disaster for Steve.
Learning self control is like a muscle and it needs strengthening with regular practice.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi S,
Wow! I bet you felt relieved to finally have talked to your parents! Exposing your husband’s shame is the first step to his recovery, and as Kim said – he may not know how to fix himself (because he has up until now been so used to not trusting anyone – including you – and he has a great deal of control issues and insecurities to overcome).
It is important to let him know that he will not be abandoned by you because his secret is out – but from now on you want to get the right help and support to help you both get through this.
While I said in my last posting “Be at peace with yourself and how you expect to be treated, and accept no less than that – and you will lead the way to those who want to be with you and to love you.” – I should have added though that it is unrealistic to expect that anyone can stop losing their temper altogether – losing our temper is telling us that something is upsetting or frustrating us. However, you still do not have to accept unacceptable behaviour – you can demonstrate this whenever your husband is behaving unacceptably – that you can and will respond in the most appropriate way and according to the behaviour (as Kim has outlined thoughout her material).
It can be daunting after having been downtrodden for so long to suddenly find yourself in the position where you have to lead the way. This will be a big shift in your relationship dynamic – even though we don’t like being controlled and abused, and have wished and hoped all this time that things would change and get better – now it feels strange to be “in charge” – but this is where you need to be – firm and guiding but loving at the same time – and be unafraid to seek the help and support you need to help both through this.
No doubt there has been a lot of eye contact between you and your husband since you told your parents – continue to maintain eye contact while speaking your truth quietly and clearly to your husband – you may find that your husband will look away (due to the shame & guilt he feels). But while you are maintaining eye contact you are letting him know that he can trust you even though he may not always like to hear what you say or do.
Above all let him know that you love him but you are worried about him with his anger issues and that is why you are seeking outside support, because you do not know how to handle him when he loses his temper and becomes abusive and/or delivering ultimatums.
As Kim said – setting him small but increasing challenges over a period of time is something realistic he can work to and to gauge his progress upon. There will be setbacks, but stay focused on where you want to be while moving toward your goals – and he will follow you because he doesn’t want to lose you (proof of this is in what you wrote above – with all his threats to leave you if you did this or that, and telling your parents to take you away – now he is doing his utmost to convince you that he will not verbally or physically abuse you again – they can be so contrary can’t they?).
I seem to remember you saying that your husband does not like to read material but would rather listen to audios instead – I would like to suggest that he listens to Kim and Steve’s audios from The Love Safety Net website – especially the ones on “Ultimatums” and “Anger”. (That is if Kim thinks it is a good idea for him to listen to the audios?)
You are strong enough take the lead from now on – so stay strong!
CD.
MR
ITS BEEN A WHILE SINCE MY LAST NOTE…THINGS HAVE NOT GOTTEN MUCH BETTER…NOR ANY WORSE.
IT SEEMS NO MATTER WHAT IMPROVEMENTS ARE MADE IN THE AREAS OF THIS RELATIONSHIP THERE ARE ONLY NEW ONES TO FIX OR OLD ONES TO GO BACK TO. I FEEL THAT INCREASINGLY THE NEED IS NOT TO HAVE THINGS FIXED BUT TO ALWAYS HAVE SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.
MY DOCTOR HAS MENTIONED THAT SOME OF THE ISSUES ARE REALLY HERS AND NOT ANYTHING WHICH I CAN OR SHOULD FIX. HE ALSO MENTIONED THAT I SEEM TO CATALOG THE SHE SAID/I SAID SITUATIONS AND THAT WAS NOT HEALTHY OR PRODUCTIVE.
HIS OPINION IS THAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS NOT SAVEABLE AND THE LONGER WE SIT IN IT THE MORE THIS BECOMES NORMAL AND ACCEPTED. TWO GOOD POINTS.
I HAVE NOTICED THAT WHEN THINGS ARE CALM AND THEN SOMETHING HAPPENS THE LEVEL OF ANGER AND TENTION IS JUST AS HIGH AS EVER AND THE SOLUTION OF THE PROBLEM IS ALWAYS THE SAME…SOMETHING HASNT BEEN DONE IN HER WAY…ON HER TIME…CONSIDERING HER…OR SUPPORTING HER SIDE OF THE SITUATION.
I CANNOT GET THROUGH T0 HER THAT THERE ARE 2 SIDES AND SHE WILL NOT ACCEPT MY SIDE.
HER COMMENTS ARE ALWAYS RETALIATIONS FOR THINGS SAID TO HER (OR IN HER MIND DONE TO HER) AND ALL SITUATIONS END IN SILENCE WITH HER WITHDRAWNING AND SAYING SHE IS NOT DOING THIS ANYMORE…ONLY TO COME BACK TO THE SAME THING.
I AM LOOKING INTO SOMEHOW GETTING SEPERATE LIVING QUARTERS AND CONSULTING A LAWYER AS TO HOW TO END THE REALTIONSHIP AND FIND SOME PEACE AND GET BETTER FEELONG ABOUT MYSELF W/O THE CONSTANT PUT-DOWNS.
I HAVE BEEN TOLD I AM A CHILD…A HYPOCRITE…A CONTROLLING S.O.B…I ASSOCIATE WITH LOSERS…I HAVE SCREWED UP MY ENTIRE LIFE…AND ALSO HERS…SHE IS SOORY SHE EVER GOT INVOLVED WITH ME…I DO NOT HELP HER AT ALL…DO NOT CONSIDER HER..ETC. ALL OF THESE STATEMENTS HAVE STUCK WITH ME AND I CARRY THEM AROUND WITH ME AND ALSO HAVE THEM IN MY HEART WHEN I AM DEALING WITH HER. THIS MAKES ITS VERY DIFFICULT TO COME ACROSS POSITIVELY. THE ONLY SITUATIONS WHICH SEEM TO GO WELL ARE THOSE IN WHICH SHE NEEDS SOMETHING OR PLANS A PLACE TO GO…ANYTHING ELSE IS A WASTE OF HER TIME.
I AM AT WITS END AND NEED A CHANGE.
PEACE
JOHN53
Hi CD,
Yes I truly feel relieved. Its like a weight has been lifted off my chest. I was feeling so isolated and scared with no one to speak to. I feel so much more confident now. I have been telling the same thing over and over to my husband that I love him and want to be with him but the way he has behaved so far is not acceptable any more. My parents left yesterday. My parents made it clear to him that his behaviour is unacceptable and they will take action if he continues like this. But they still showed love and care towards him. I don’t really know what is going through his mind . Last night he started the topic again. he feels betrayed and believes that I should not have involved anyone else into this. He feels that he may not be able to forget that I exposed him. But I firmly stood my ground that I did what I believed was in our best interest. He said that he will never abuse me again but will maintain a distance in our relationship (will not share what he feels and not talk to me much etc). he feels this is the only way he can avoid such situations. I tried to make him believe that I am there with him but I don’t know how much he trusts me now. Later he also said that he will never want to meet my parents again and they are never again welcome in our home and they are more important to me than him . I made one thing clear that I will not accept this. Again after a lot of talk and some arguments in between he later accepted that its his way of thinking that he needs to change. He has so much negativity inside him ( he just does not know how to see things in a positive light). He said that if they weren’t my parents and he knew them he would probably be fond of them . He hates them only because they are my parents and he feels bad about that! (he probably feels that I should not love anyone else and no one should love me other than him) I hugged him and said that if someone we are looking at has a smile on their face its up to us how we interpret it. We can choose to believe that they are making fun of us in their mind and laughing us or we can choose to believe that it’s a friendly smile because they like us. He nodded and said he understood what I meant and we left it at that.
CD/Kim I am a bit concerned about the negative feeling of betrayal that he now feels. I am trying my best to keep control of my own emotions so that I can handle him. But am not sure what to do next. Is he going to pick on me more than before because now he feels betrayed??
have you experienced this? CD to be honest it sure is daunting to be in this position. I will surely try to get him to listen to some of the audios on anger. I had tried to get him to listen to the narcissism audio. He did listen to it a couple of times but then did not want to do it any more. I myself do listen to the anxiety and co-dependency ones and it a big part in what has kept me going so far.
Also I want to thank you and Kim and every one who has replied to posts. The feeling that we can reach out to someone for advice makes a huge difference
S
Hi S,
It is VITAL that you do the gap finder exercise with him now as is outlined at the end of Back from the Looking Glass and given in detail in the Love Safety Net Workbook. You need to get the focus off the bad behaviour ASAP (unless it comes up) and onto the small steps he needs to start taking to build his self esteem …
This will show him that you care about him and know where he needs support rather than you wanting to “rub his face in it that he has been shown up as wrong”.
You are doing great but now is where the re parenting starts and that does take patience and love.
Hi S,
In my own situation – some 25 years ago – my husband forbid me to see me parents ever again. I did not know how to handle him back then and I just waited for him to calm down (over several weeks) and then resumed visiting my family again when I thought he may have forgotten what he had said.
Many years later and after being in Al-Anon for some time I learned how to stand up for myself – then in other times where he was trying to possessively control me and isolate me, I found new ways of dealing with him – and that was healthy for me and also healthy for him even though he would outwardly express otherwise. I learned that the more I gave my husband control over me by following his irrational and unreasonable orders – the more he disrespected me.
One day he was being very derogatory of my mother – and there were undertones that I had to comply with his thinking “if I loved him”. I waited for him to finish without commenting and then simply said “I feel very hurt and upset by how you are talking about my mother to me right now. My mother and I have always been very close and I love her very much. You are not obliged to love or even like her, however I know deep down that you do have a very big soft spot for her – the same as she does for you. So I do not understand why you are talking about her in this way, but I do know that I have better things to do than to listen you saying things that I know you don’t really mean.” And I moved on without looking back.
I really find it strange that he can be so mean-spirited and so contrary about everyone – unless he wants something from them. I know that if and when I leave him – there will be “hell to pay” for me (and others) for abandoning him along with a “couldn’t care less if I left” attitude by him.
He is terribly dependent upon me in so many ways, and then if ever I ask for his assistance – he blows up like I have asked too much of him – in other words he throws a tantrum. It is almost a ritual that he does this to make it clear how much “he does for me” where in fact he often does very little for me personally where he does extraordinary things for others.
Most times whenever he needs my assistance he will again throw a tantrum – instead of just simply asking for what he needs – and it doesn’t matter how much I have encouraged him to do that – he nearly always resorts to his old habitual “anger/tantrums equals control and power”. Most of the time I do not give him what he wants in response to a tantrum or angry outburst – however there are many times where I am just too frazzled or shocked to deal with it – I have to get better at that.
Then there are times when he wants what he wants – and he wants it now – and if he doesn’t get what he wants there are snide remarks that “I have let him down”. (Spoiled 54 year old child?)
He seems to resent ever being dependent upon another person, or other people being dependent upon him, or is it all just a big drama to get attention and recognition?
We are truly dealing with “babies” who need to grow up! Part of ourselves was too immature to deal with their behaviour and this is the “growing up” process we have been going through in order to be able to deal with the “babies” in our lives.
Our “babies” need to know they are loved and can trust us to be honest with them and the world. While we kept their shame secret we were living a lie and aiding and abetting their abuse, and they could see that we were “lying” or concealing the “shame” – and for that reason trust could never be fully established until we exposed their shame.
Your husband’s problem is most likely more about his own shame and embarassment of being exposed, but it is much easier for him, and blame-shifting, for him to say that you have “betrayed” him and “let him down” and to try and stop your parents from visiting again by saying they are unwelcome.
His embarrasment and shame is something he has to come to terms with and to get over – concentrating on his and your gaps is all important.
As you read through my history above you will probably be able to see some gaps that my husband and I have to work through too – maybe you and your husband might share some of them. Make sure that you keep in touch with your Personal Bill of Rights too.
You are doing great – it is not easy but worth the journey!
CD
Hi Kim,
As you suggested I have started the gap work. There is a lot of work to do. I could not give him more than 1 tick in Personal Values or Principles and Emotional Intelligence and no ticks at all in Morale (I am not considering other areas at the moment as these top the priority list). These things are the most important in ones life. I have been thinking a lot since yesterday about how to start with this. I think Morale is the place to start. If he starts to like and appreciate himself (not pretending) then I think the next steps will become some what easier. He is hardly ever cheerful. When he gets up in the morning or gets back from work if I don’t say a goodmorning and smile he never will. There is a lot of jealousy and competitiveness. Always the need to be better than others , have more than others. I have always tried to make him feel relaxed that we do not need a massive house , what we have is enough and I am very happy here. But some childhood experiences have made him believe that he has to be ahead of friends and realtives. He can never be happy for others accomplishments and cannot appreciate what he has because he is always running after what he doesn’t. So he is not able to have healthy friendships or love and respect any one .. it’s a vicious circle.. Kim can you suggest me something on how to resolve this issue? (my assurance that he he does not need to stress himself does not seem to work) .
He is still upset with me and has been keeping a distance from me. But I kept a happy face and was still loving towards him. Honestly I myself felt better. Then to break the ice (as he was not speaking to me) I suggested to play a game ( the one that I knew he was good at). First he resented but later agreed and that did bring the smile back on his face. That was a bit shortlived as this morning again he was a bit cold. But I guess I have to be patient and loving. It will take time for the attachment to build. I wanted to share this with you .
Kim / CD please write to me if you have any suggestions regarding how to boost his morale and help him develop Personal Values or Principles and Emotional Intelligence (also if there is any material/ book that I can read). Your suggestions are a great help.
Cheers
S
Hi S,
I think with the Gap finder it is important that it is something HE feels insecure about and would feel is important more than something you would like to see change. Personally I think that tackling morale first may not help build trust as he will just think you want him to be more cheerful for your sake. If you choose something less important to you but more important to him will do a lot to help him trust you and see that you care about him. It may take a bit of thought but maybe you can figure out the thing that makes him feel unworthy or stupid. I think we all have one! For Steve one of his gaps was not knowing his scales – even though he is very talented at playing music. One of mine was my times tables and I am still working on that! If you have a look through our shows (The Love Safety Net) on Global talk radio you will find a few on challenges. The Power of Love part 2 is a good one and you can hear it here;
http://www.globaltalkradio.com/shows/lovesafetynet/program23.php
This is a tricky time now but I think you are up to it!
Kim Cooper
http://www.fightbusters.com
I kind of understand what your husband does or did. I grw up thinking I never wanted anyone to do anyting for me, even thought I will do anything for anyone. I just never wanted anyone to throw up to me about all they have done for me and it went from there. I need to work on that in myself. I sometimes feel overwhelmed and that everyone depends on me for everything, and sometimes it would be nice if someone would just look and see I need help and offer without me having to ask. That may be where it is coming from in him too. Wishing you andyour husband the best.
Hi all,
It is so nice to have a place to talk about all this. I love the idea above about small support groups either in person or online. I have read many books about emotional intelligence, and Kim’s was the first that actually made sense to me. I always felt there was something deeply wrong in me i had to hide, and now see this is a large part of what it is – emotional maturity.
I am living with my bf 7 years, and while he has N tendencies, things ‘appeared’ very happy until 5 months ago. In a period of 3 weeks we went through about 4 traumas, much more traumatic for bf than me. Since the night of the first event, he has been drunk daily, very verbally abusive, and one time physically abusive – like never before. The more things in his life are collapsing, the more he takes it out on me, and has begun wetting the bed at night from stress. It was just after the physical abuse night that I found Kim’s website and books.
His adult son (21)lives with us, an N in training, who has closed up into his own black hole of anger refusing any communication with me since the fighting started.The day of the first incident the two of them told me clearly ‘leave us alone, live your life and we live ours and stop controlling us’. And that is how it is has been.
When drunk, he talks about everyone he loved either dies or leaves him, and now everyone betrays him and he can’t trust or get close ever again.
I was starting to make changes and very slowly things were getting better at home. Last week he received notice of a small claims court case against him by a former friend and he flipped out. Each time he works on the case he attacks me worse afterword. He is out of control with drinking and non-stop verbal abuse. He came home last night from the bar and before i could even say ‘hi’ he attacked, going from one topic to the next trying to find something to hook me on. At least i could see his game very clearly.
I was so frustrated after 5 months of no sleep and extreme stress that i got in my car and tried to leave. that was my hook since i did not really want to leave. It was like he was testing me- pushing limits way beyond what he did before to see what he could get away with and watching for my reaction. Calling me a few choice swear words on the front lawn and telling me how much his son hates me was the final straw and i drove off. I am at my parents and they can’t believe all this has been going on. At least it is coming out now, and no more secrecy.
He texted me twice last night and i replied to one. I do not want this relationship to end, but need outside influences now to affect things, i cannot do it myself. He has no doctor, no friends, no clergy, no nobody other than a boss, and since he missed many days of work I thought to contact his boss. I am also considering forcing communication with his son so he undertands the fighting is abuse and his father is likely depressed, with PTSD and in a severe personal crisis and maybe find an ally that way. My father, whom he greatly respects has offered to speak to them. I am unsure how to approach his boss, or how to ‘negotiate’ coming home again. I am not sure of his gaps, but i think problem solving skills, give and take/negotiations in relationships, being able to clearly ask for what he wants… feeling helpless when he does not get his way.
But honestly, the day away from that stress feels so good
but i miss my home.
Rachel
I have downloaded some of your material and found it helpful as my husband exhibits many if the traits you describe. He has been violent in the past, but has brought that under control and there have been no incidents for over a year. He does still have a problem with money and verbal abuse. He doesn’t contribute anything like a fair share towards household bills. I am doing my best to challenge this, but it us no easy. I have several questions I’d like to ask of Kim or anyone else who feels they have an insight. Is this a forum for questions or merely comments?
Looking at some of the other posts, there seems to be a lot if sharing. But not so much about specific tactics. My husband of six years shows many of the traits Kim talks about, especially around withholding money and verbal abuse. Thankfully he has managed to bring his violent tendencies under control. The verbal abuse is getting better too, particularly after I started using some of Kims techniques, which I am grateful for. One thing that is different to other accounts is he tends to treat me better in private than in public. With other people around, he seems to want to prove he’s the big man by putting me down. The other problem that really persists is money. I would be grateful for any advice on getting him to be more responsible and equitable with money.
I wonder, how do other women feel about this: my boyfriend would like to take the phone numbers of women he meets who are interesting to him to be “friends” and also recently informed me that he is loyal to a woman he likes to write to on the internet and expressed regret at “letting go” another woman he used to write to on there who was “very caring.” i was not okay with these before, so he told me he stopped writing to them but recently is expressing regret over that decision and said to me, “don’t think for a minute so-and-so isn’t my friend.” Seems like whenever we seem to make progress, and things start to feel “safe” for me, then there is something else. i don’t know what to say to my bf now because this is not okay with me. i told him i needed some space to think about this. anyone have any similar experiences?
This is very common RD and I hope some people share how they have dealt with it. I wrote back to one woman Steve had begun writing to online and told her he was married with 3 kids and not who he pretended to be – but I don’t know if I would do that now. The question I think you really need to ask yourself is why does he need these fantasy relationships right now and are you going to let them unbalance you any further? He may be seeing you get stronger and that could be scaring him so some small goals to challenge him with might help as well as you making it clear that you are not going to abandon him but also how childish you see his behavior as and that it is only going to make him look even weaker than he already does next to your new strength!!!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
i dont have the problem with online women friends but with texting (he dosnt have a computer!) One particular woman he has been texting for 7 months. it started in april when we were away for the weekend and he texted her something entirely inappropriate. when tackled he shifted the blame onto me for checking his fone. anyway she is one of the customers on his route as a delivery driver quite a way out from where we live. i can read the 1st line of his texts which he didnt know i could do on his delivery reports. he was sending her kisses all last week. i will never undertand why, when we have just come back from holiday and moved into a flat 2gether why he puts everything he has with me at risk for the sake of these texts with someone he never sees evenings and weekends coz hes with me (i know she has questioned him why he never takes her out)He also couldnt have a r’ship with her because of where she lives and where he works and he has no transport. i left him a note and moved out a week ago. i cant cope with the irresponsible attitude with money and i know he will drain me financially. i also cited the verbal abuse, the anger problems etc etc. he contacted me and ignored all the issues except her and completely denied it. he dosnt know her, he dosnt text her, etc etc. i asked for his phone and showed him i could see delivery reports and admitted i had seen the kisses text. he says this is impossible. he admitted he rang her that week because he felt someone was stirring things up ( i had started getting texts from someone i didnt know leading me to the fact he was texting her) i texted her last night and asked her to be honest and said i had seen his reports – no answer ! so even though i have seen these texts with my own eyes, and even though i have told him that i saw he had texted her 59 times in 2 weeks last april because i looked at his bill, he still says im imaginging it and he dosnt know where i get these ideas. i am dumbfounded and told him i cant believe he would rather lose me or make me think im going mad rather than admit to something. he says hes not admitting to anything he hasnt done, he says if someone texted him and said i robbed a bank, he wouldnt believe it, i said if he had seen me come out of the bank with a stocking over my head that night, he probably would believe it. anyway the upshot is i cant be even bothered with him or the situation any more. i moved back to my house where i can live cheaper than living in the flat with him and he is not even acting like he cares but still keeps asking me to go round and telling me lies over the phone. i give up !!!!!
@RD, this is a subject that speaks very clearly to me. My husband and I had followed a very twisting road down the path of attempting to have an open marriage. The whole concept of having an “open and honest” relationship, inviting others who were like-minded into our relationship had appealed to both of us, as well as bringing a little excitement to our relationship. Well, very quickly his narcissistic nature took center stage and what started off open and honest soon turned to self-centered, addictive and dishonest behavior that has nearly destroyed our 16 year relationship. Now, thanks to Kim and Steve, gap work and finding Co-Dependent’s Anonymous for my own issues of co-dependence, we are on a different path.
I am finding my own voice regarding my needs and wants, and setting healthier boundaries within my marriage. I am no longer afraid to say that behavior like what you are describing is no longer acceptable to me. That I will not accept a “friendship” with another woman that ends up with him emotionally detaching from me and our son, nor will I stand for ANY dishonesty. An “open relationship” within our marriage becomes toxic to our marriage long before there are any long term “benefits” other than to satisfy his narcissistic need for empty attention. He has finally began to realize that empty attention leaves him feeling just that way – EMPTY, wanting more and never satisfied. He knows now to make these choices will cause our marriage to end because I no longer fear abandonment or rejection. I love myself enough to know that I deserve better. I love him enough to know the self-work involved is worth it as I am healthier and bring more to our relationship than I did as a co-dependent shell of a woman I was before, making sad desperate attempts to allow bad behavior because it was the only way I thought I could “control” him and hang on to him. Now I know that having “control” over another person is just an allusion. Once I let go, I gained so much!!
Don’t get me wrong, we both have a long way to go. Finding my voice has made him very uncomfortable because he has never heard me speak out in this manner. He is also starting to allow that wall of perfection down a bit, but to do so he is feeling emotions he has long hidden. Shame is probably the hardest to deal with. Because I have been able to offer him a safe place to finally face these emotions, we are becoming emotionally attached again. I couldn’t have said this 6 months ago as I reacted before to a display of emotions with so much resentment, anger and sarcasm that he never found it safe to share his true emotions with me. He would turn to others so that he could create the fantasy personas he felt more comfortable with and then get the false attention and affection that he so badly wanted to be able to receive from me, but because the dance of the narcissist-codependant can be so mired in hidden fear, he was never able to be the authentic man I fell in love with any longer.
I am curious at the level of regret your b/f would have if he were to no longer have contact with you. Why does he hold these other “friendships” as being more important? You need to set firm boundaries and hold to them or he will continually push them so that he has a sense of control over you.
Hi Robin and Sarie – thanks for writing in. Sarie please make sure you have some solid goals to focus on now and Robin I am sure everyone would love to hear your methods of setting boundaries now. As to why people do this, Steve just posted a 5 part movie on our YouTube channel that you can watch (if you have time) with Steve and I talking about romantism which leads directly to this very topic and why the idea of a fantasy love is so alluring and so dangerous. The movies are from a class that we are holding at our local church and if you enjoy them please give them a rating and make a comment!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Thanks Kim. Im fine, my goals are to enjoy my friends, my job and my home. To enjoy time alone with no nagging, insults, to watch what i want on tv etc etc. Its very sad to realise that as my feelings have changed for him, he wants them back and is offering me his out of bounds phone to keep to prove his innocence. I know that what ever form our relationship takes, if indeed it continues in some way, I will never again allow myself to sink to the depths he had me before. How ironic ! Im so glad I found this website because it opened my eyes to what was in front of me. Thank you
Hi all,
I’ve started taking Kim’s advice and my husband is getting better in terms of controlling his violent tendencies and verbal abuse and sharing responsibilities. But recently he got the chance to return to his country of origin with a female friend. It is there where he gets a huge amount of narcissistic supply….largely as he now has more money than everyone else. He won’t let me come too even just for a couple of days, even though I will be nearby. So much for building strong attachment! He is so attached to this fantasy that he is a free agent. He is forty years old, and works hard here, but he wants to go home and act like a teenager. I’m so angry, I am now considering splitting up after 6 years together even though he is improving in other areas…..
Hi,
My name is Holly. I unfortunately didn’t know about any of this until I had already left my NPD man. I left him on july 4th, 2010. I came across Kim’s website(and Steve), about 5 weeks ago. I have bought all ebooks and have read them. All of this information is such a thrill to learn. I love it. I have checked into Alanon, Domestic Violence Advacote Centers, you name it. Nothing has seemed as real as this. I am currently starting the workbook.
I have a problem in my situation and do not know what to do. As I said, I left my guy this past 4th of July, with our 2 children. we have a 4 yr old boy and 22 months old baby girl. I basically fled to AZ from CA. And boy is my life a mess.
Me and my ex barely communicate. When we do, it is just like it was. Arguing, putting me down, I put him down, etc.
How do I reattach when a lot of damage has been done? I mean lots of damage. Stuff he did that is crazy. He has tried to ruin my life by trying to put me in jail, went to court and said I abducted the kids and filed for sole legal, physicaly custody of our two children. For me to only have supervised visitation. I am a stay at home mom mind you. He was just lying all over the place, trying to force me and the children back into CA. Attorneys are involved. I cannot believe I am here.
Anyway, I have been soaking up all this content and really getting it. But what do I do when I am in AZ, he is in CA, and now he wants me to move back to CA and get my own place with the kids and he can see them when he wants. Typical. He is taking no accountability for any of it. Everything is still my fault as it always was.
When I first left we had no communication for 2 months. He and my son just talked on the phone. Then the first time I spoke to him was so weird because he was treating me the same way. Like I had never left. It was very odd. He acted as though we were still in the same arguement.
Please, if someone can give me some advice or knows where I am coming from in the least, I am all ears.
How do I attach and do any of this with him? Thank you.
First you need to get yourself and the kids set up where you
have the best safety net and the most support.
If that is AZ you should stay there and tell him that you need
your family around you now but that he is welcome to visit
any time.
Hang in there!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Holly,
I feel for you and that is such a tough situation. The thing we must remember is we can’t change anyone else, but we can change ourselves. Sometimes we get into a never ending cycle and this is when we have to break it. It is hard because when you love someone you don’t want to let go or hurt them. Kim has great points and some of the things she says takes a lot of courage. I am sure that you will have that courage. Just remember that no one can make you feel anything unless you allow them to make you feel that way. I know that sound silly, but when we let people make us feel angry, hurt, and so forth we give them the power over us. Remember if you want to attach to him again you have to change yourself and accept he might not might not change:)
Hi MR,
Just wondering how you are going – things are still rough here but at least I can still see through the junk for what it is – the criticism, self-pity and victimhood is relentless. For example he really tests my patience when he criticises EVERY meal I make – I have never had any complaints from others. These criticisms along with countless others is a subtle form of abuse – a conscious or even unconscious attempt to pull me down – to keep me down & out and isolated. I am quite prepared to listen to constructive criticism but when it is criticism that translates to “you have failed to please me” or “you have let me down” then I won’t play that game with him. I wonder if alcoholism can destroy or alter a person’s sense of taste? I believe an unhappy liver can distort one’s enjoyment of food!
He is finally making decisions to scale down the size of our business or even to shut it down altogether. It has taken nearly a year of opening his eyes to what he is saying – such as: “I am sick of this, I’ve had enough!” He has had enough of the bureaucracy & stress of running the business, etc – he knows that he is struggling to keep up with the changes in our industry – but his ego has got in the way of admitting that and him making a call until about a week ago. He defines himself by what he does for a living and his financial success, so this is a huge call for him to let go of his perceived current “status” in our town. He also does not like to think he is at this stage in his life – he fears growing old – and winding down is an admission of this in his eyes. I prefer to think of it as a sea-change!
It saddens me that he does not acknowledge my contribution to the success of our business – it is all about him – however I can keep perspective on this by acknowledging my own contribution to myself. It is just hard sometimes to have my husband and business partner treat me like I don’t exist – he speaks in singular form “I . . . . me . . . . myself” instead of “We . . . . us . . . .ourselves” – but I guess that just adds to my suspicion that he suffers from NPD along with his alcoholism and that makes the current status of our relationship extremely difficult if not untenable.
There have been many times when applying the principles of Kim & Steve’s program and Al-Anon that I believe I have made some headway and connection with him – but he is never far from turning on me or others in a verbally aggressive way – he believes the world is against him and he is constantly portraying himself as the real victim (even when he was the aggressor) and then seeks sympathy for his victimhood.
I had a surprise visitor yesterday – a person close to him came to see me about his behaviour – it was amazing that at last someone was brave and concerned enough to take that step – up until now I have found it very difficult to get a support network – part of that problem being to do with my constantly battered self-esteem & self-confidence (but that is only something I can work on)- most of the remainder of the problem being that I have to reduce the potential fallout if my husband has a breakdown as a result of bringing down his house of cards. I am considering asking this person to go and see our family doctor with me to help validate my concerns about my husband’s out of control behaviour & negative/depressed outlook on life.
One has to ask why in a world where there are too many broken families – why support is not more readily given by professionals and the authorities in helping to keep families together instead of putting us in the “too hard basket”. My husband is withdrawing from family and friends and pleasurable activities – to me that is a serious warning sign of severe depression and/or potential self-harm – but it is not detected by the doctor because he goes into a consult with a mask of “the happy-go-lucky successful together guy” where he really is an emotional vampire most of the time on me and others. It’s bullsh*t! My husband makes a big thing that he always walks into the doctor’s waiting room without an appointment and then when the doctor sees him in the waiting room he calls him into his office ahead of all the other patients apparently to their disgust – I don’t know if this is true or whether it is yet another of his “special treatment” stories because he is so “important” – I have genuine concerns that this claim to fame is not true – however not harmful to anyone but himself.
I remember once my husband embellishing a story to his mother where he forgot that I was present during the events of the story – understandably I was not thanked for pointing out that the real events were not so impressive – but his mother said “Oh well, it makes for a better story to add all those bits and pieces!” Maybe I am a stick in the mud for wanting to tell it how it is even if it is not so exciting, but my real concern is why did he have to impress his mother in this way? He did not have to be bigger and better than what he was because she already loved and accepted him for who he is. She was however – God bless her – a bit of a snob & aloof at times – but most of the time her heart was jovial, warm and open – and I loved her very much. It did however concern me that she encouraged him to lie ultimately to impress her.
Back to us though, my health is really suffering now and I am still largely stuck between a rock and a hard place. If I don’t get our working lives separated then my hands will remain largely tied as far as pulling down his house of cards goes. I know if I take charge of shutting down the business without him being more willing to do so then he will make my life hell – he can be extremely blaming and vindictive and will imply that I have “let him down” by doing so. At this stage I have to make a decision for myself regardless of the consequences – because no-one else is going to make it for me and I need to save myself and my sanity. If he gives me a hard time for “letting him down” – then so be it – at least I will be untied from him business wise if I need to walk away from the relationship eventually too – I don’t want our family to break up, but I don’t want us to continue in this way for the rest of our lives either – it is just not acceptable.
How are you and your boys going? I hope as we go into another Christmas that things are brighter and happier for you. I want to thank especially you and Kim for your valuable support over the last nearly two years, and hope that 2011 brings many good times for everyone.
Merry Xmas,
CD.
Hi
Thank you so much for your material and this website. I have recently started therapy because of my relationship with my mum. My therapist has identified that she sounds like a narcissist and that I am a co-dependent. I have a lot of anger and resentment from my childhood and my mum has never been happy because of how she conducts her relationships with people. In 2008 she tried to kill herself. She was living in America at the time and I believe the reason was that she had argued with all her brothers and sisters and was £50K in debt as she had taken out so many credit cards and maxed them all out. I’m presuming that she spent the money to try and make herself feel better and to look like someone who was successful and had a lot of money. After her attempt she was an extra 40K in debt as she had no health insurance. My brother, sister and I encouraged her to file for bankruptcy and told her that she should come back to England where she used to live as she could get help from the NHS and she could get some benefits here being a British Citizen. She can never hold down a job due to a problem with authority and people telling her what to do as she thinks she is better than everyone. I offered that she live with me until my sister comes back from Canada, as I hoped that we can repair our relationship and where I could keep an eye on her as I was worried that she might feel like a failure after everything that had happened and try again. Since the attempt she told everyone that it was because she had been sexually abused by her brother as a child (i.e. nothing to do with her financial problems). I already have heard my whole life what a horrible and physically abusive childhood she has had and all the bad things that have happened to her through no fault of her own. It sounds horrible of me but I don’t know whether she is telling the truth or not because of my history with her. However everything has been fine for 3 months but we have recently had a 3 day argument when all her verbally abusive behaviour has come out again. This was when I found your websites. The argument started because I suspected that she was putting up some photos that aren’t hers onto facebook – she has recently expressed an interest in photography and has joined several groups where she posts her pictures. She is addicted to the comments and praise that she gets from these strangers. A lot of her pictures are beautiful but she has never won any of the competitions. I think she feels insecure about this as she never went to college or university and is over compensating for her lack of perceived knowledge or skills. I had spoken to her about this 3 months ago and told her it was illegal and wrong. She took some of them down but left others and when she did it again a few days ago I commented on facebook saying what a beautiful picture it was and asking whether the photo was from a photography book she got for Christmas. She deleted the comment twice and when I went to ask her why she deleted the comment she blew up in a rage about it. Posting the comment may have been the wrong thing to do and I realise that I was avoiding confronting her again due to my own lack of emotional strengh but that to her these comments made her feel threatened as she doesn’t want to be seen as a possible liar to her 650 facebook friends. I understand that it is so important to her as she has no real friends. During the argument where she still insisted that all the pictures were hers, told us not to interfere in her business and came out with horrible put downs and abusive comments dragging up everything from the past. Now she has blocked me from her albums which makes me feel she is just going to carry on with this behaviour which I don’t think is healthy for her. I don’t know what to do. I have already apologised to her for losing my temper and saying horrible things to her and offered to help her sign up to an intermediate photography class so she feels less insecure about her skills. We talked about the pictures again and she won’t admit they are not hers. Should I leave this issue now and hope she will get better once she builds her confidence or contact some of her facebook friends to discuss this issue further?
Hi CD, MR hasn’t been around for awhile and things have been quite here without you. It sounds like you have done an enormous amount of work setting better boundaries for yourself so that you can let him have to start taking responsibility for his own problems without it impacting on you.
Best that when the time comes you have some really good scripts ready and use them. Things like “If I didn’t save myself you were going to sink us both and then who would be around still to help you?” or “I was just not capable of protecting you from yourself anymore.” “You need to face your own responsibilities that you have created yourself.”
I think you probably remember me saying to Steve very often “You are trying to drag our lives in the gutter and I am not going to go.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Madeline,
I think that you are right that this isn’t good for her but I also think that your challenges – or you could even make it a dare – to do photography classes are better than you trying to expose her or force your will on her. That is only going to breed more fear and embarrassement and resentment in this case I feel. A dare is better left hanging as well and won’t work if you harp on it – like you could say “I am sorry I shouldn’t have forced the issue – it is your business of course – but I know you haven’t forgotten about my dare for you to actually learn about photography so let’s see if you have the courage to really do it and stop pretending.”
After that kind of statement I think that you then just have to get on with your own life …
Kim Cooper
http://www,narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
What should I do or say, even if it is nothing, when my NPD husband has done something good in the community, but instead of being gracious in the spirit of giving – he has added so much to the story each time he tells it – to milk his changing audience for more and more praise and attention – the more he impresses – the more he adds to his added fake heroism – he is now lying by doubling the amount that he actually gave, and any minor difficulty he might have had to deal with has now become “a massive difficulty with potential environmental disaster all in front of the authorities” – but he confabulates that “he saved the day and nobody knew that there was a problem because he fixed it discreetly even though he was surrounded by the authorities who would have convicted him if they had realised!” There never would have been any conviction because the difficulty was so minor anyway! The story has been told so many times and each time it gets bigger and bigger (and even silly and unbelievable) – trying to pump himself up so far above everyone else to win their “admiration and respect”. He is making a fool of himself. I have heard through the grapevine that people are laughing at him, saying that they should only believe a little of what he says. He is constantly putting me down in public, but if I dare contradict his lies (even though I was a witness to the events)then he is very accomplished at defending himself in front of his audience by being offensive towards me – he turns nasty for my exposing his lies and fakeness – I either give up or choose not to contradict him in the first place – but that is like I am supporting his lies. The sad part about it is that the true story is impressive and praiseworthy without any embellishment – he was capable of telling it nearly how it was originally, but over the years it has now got to the point of being ridiculous. He hates me – he sees me as the enemy because I may expose his lies – what should I do when he is in this ego pumping mode? He doesn’t have to be more than what he actually is to be loved and accepted by those around him – but it is never enough for him to just be himself – he seeks to be more and more than what he is – there is no limit to his desire to be admired and envied! I am in the most awkward of places – if I contradict him he blows up – if I stay silent I become part of the lie. He will often ask me to “vouch” for what he is saying – I try to avoid “vouching” for him – he lies so confidently and convincingly that I start to question my recall and then any attempt by me to put the halter on his confabulating is run aground through his injection of self-doubt in myself. I have tried talking to him in private as well – but it is always met with hostility. It has been going on forever that it has almost become boring to me even though he seeks to impress so much. The other part is that he even believes his own lies so what hope is there?? And if anyone else becomes the centre of attention then you can see and even feel his resentment towards them. It is so sad – he is truly suffering underneath the mask!
I would not expose him in public but choose the right time and place in private to make a statement about your feelings about this that is compassionate but sincere. I would certainly make sure that you have somewhere else to be after this statement and do not wait around for a response. If he is still angry later maybe you do need to fight it out with him but ask yourself before hand what it is you want and what it is you are offering and be very direct about that. He cannot help you with your embarrassment over his actions because he does not even know how to deal with his own embarrassment.
Maybe imagining him as a child who has gotten carried away with himself might help you to be compassionate when you need to be. Hopefully later when he has calmed down you will get the chance to tell him that it hurts you to see him suffer so much.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi everyone.. I want to wish you all good wishes and blessings for 2011. I know for a lot of you, that may seem difficult to imagine and I felt that way this time last year too.
I have not posted here for some time and that has been partly to the fact that I have not been able to come on here and read your troubling posts. I was still in the healing process and knew that I could not come here and read things and then remain rational in thought and spirit. I used to read them sometimes and felt so anxious that I had to sign out without leaving any of you a message.
It was literally just over a year ago when I first ‘stumbled’ upon this website. I have to say that it was my turning point in the crisis I was in and I gained a lot of sensible and thought provoking advice on here.. not to mention untold support!
My early posts were removed by admin at my request, as I had been sharing very openly here and suddenly panicked that my then N (now my ex N) would think about the ‘talk’ I had had with him about NPD and find this site in the way that I had. I actually felt very threatened at that thought.
However, when I began to recover emotionally and mentally not to mention spiritually, I decided that I would post here and to be honest, if he read anything and put 2 and 2 together.. then so be it! I did not want to stop blogging here as not only was I receiving help and guidance and a proverbial ‘shoulder to cry on’ but I was also feeling that I could sometimes help some of you too with my own shared experiences.
So where am I now .. ? A year on? Well it has been an emotional journey for me but a worthwhile one I believe. I have really made headway in moving on from the 2 past N’s in my life.. one being my ex husband, whom I parted from 12 years ago this year and the 2nd one being my ex boyfriend whom I have been apart from nearly a year. (that was the final time we parted company.. I had tried a few months before but weakened and took him back!)
It has not been an easy road .. but then I never have seemed to have always ‘chosen’ the easiest of paths in my life’s lessons it seems!
It has, however, been a journey into the unknown .. a self discovery of habits of mine that needed reforming and changing. My worst habit seemed to me to be the one of co-dependency.. and of honestly letting people walk all over me .. in the belief, I hasten to add, to allow them the space they may have needed to resolve their issues.. giving them unconditional love over and over again until I was nearly destroyed by one factor and that was that I did not have enough respect for myself to stop any of it.
I thought I had achieved it once though when I first split up from my husband, whose tirade of verbal and threatening physical violence and actual physical bullying, I had endured for nearly 20 years. I thought I had cracked it then and that I would not ever let another man OR woman treat me that way again. Yet I went on and allowed a so called best friend treat me that way for 39 years..and my team manager to do the same. In 2006, I stook up to the manager and in 2008 to the friend.. she and I no longer speak. I decided that I did not need that sort of friendship from anyone!
It was a shame as I had made a good recovery back nearly 12 years ago ..and then fell off the rails again when I got involved first with a man who had not matured emotionally and really messed with my emotional health when he walked out .. first telling me it was him and not me that was to blame. We had bought a home together and it really caused me a lot of great concern and anxiety as I was now left holding the baby (the mortgage).. that I could ill afford to pay on my own. Just before this past xmas, I found out that he was not honest with me for his reasons for leaving and that he was in fact seeing someone behind my back. Although this all happened 4 years ago, it threw me right off course and I secretly wept my way through xmas.
It was good though for me to find out .. just wish that I had figured it out at the time. I felt utterly betrayed all over again.. it was bad enough when he left for what I thought was him admitting to his emotional immaturity but another to find that when he was making love to me and telling me he loved me, that he was actually busy making his nest with her. They are still together and now all the things that I thought odd at the time concerning her in our lives, now makes perfect sense.
With regards now though to getting over the N .. I have moved on.. I would be lying though if I said I do not still think of the good times.. we shared a lot of them.. until that is, things became difficult with him, when his ‘life plans’ to move in to my house etc were scuppered by him not being able to find work near here.
The real man then began to emerge from its chrysalis.. what I had been having fun and making memories with for the previous 18 months were not one in the same person it seemed.
He calls me now and again and his parents are still in touch with me.. they still believe it was me I am sure.. perhaps they secretly hope that I will come to my senses and take him back.. maybe that is why he keeps the door open with me too. Who knows what is going on in his head? I don’t that is for sure and I feel a lot better not having to think or worry about it anymore.
Instead I have exchanged all that drama and anguish for peace of mind even if I feel I must own up to feelings of being lonely at times. There is no crime in that.. at least I know I am feeling something that is fitting of the emotional reason behind it now. Whereas before my emotions were all over the place and I had started to react differently towards external influences than I had ever experienced before. Even people who knew me well said I had become irritable and weepy.. defensive and over sensitive to every comment made by anyone!
Now when we know what most of us are subjected to by N’s is it any wonder I was feeling like this? I have looked at my past behaviour and yes would admit to having started to behave that way and also that I believe was when I started to really think about what was causing me to do that. It was then that I really examined his behaviour and my reactive behaviour towards his unfavourable comments and constant criticisms.
I read a post here written by CD (was it you?) I think about a meal her husband criticises her for, when no one else complains.. this is something along the lines of what it was like with my N. Although he did not complain about my cooking as such but he used to always offer a different way of doing it .. his way .. he fancied himself as a bit of a good cook and was always looking through cookbooks and watching the various chef programmes on tv and buying things for HIS shared kitchen!
Yet he only cooked for me a few times in 2 years and he knows I would have really welcomed him cooking for me so that I could have a night off!
He was always telling me though how he cooked for his housemates and it used to make me feel like asking him why he did not cook for me then when he came here every weekend.. but I did not dare ask…let’s face it .. it would have been my fault that he did not! Also if we were entertaining my friends here, and they would say that they had enjoyed the meal and thank me .. he never ever would agree with them and would just start clearing the dishes away.
Once I asked him why he never ever said thank you to me after a meal was cooked for him. He just shrugged his shoulders and then said something derogatory…of course..had to be my fault!!! So you see the picture here don’t you? It is I am sure like so many of you are going through? We all share such similar stories and anecdotes.
Well on a positive note, which is why I am here .. is that there is a life to be found outside of the prison walls of your life with your N’s. I was worried that I would be afraid of meeting someone else just like him but I don’t think I will now. I am much more acutely aware and educated now about NPD.
I did start dating back in the summer .. about 6 months after we split up.. but I simply enjoyed the company of a man who was so different to my ex N. He was respectful and kind and generous towards me and NOTHING like the charmers I had been ‘seduced’ by in the past. However, after about 5 weeks of casually dating, we both came to the conclusion that whilst we helped each other to get back in the saddle and start dating again, we felt no spark between us and stopped seeing each other, but it was all very amicable and I know that if our paths should cross again in the future, it would be a pleasant encounter.
What has materialised from my ‘dating’ though, is that I realised that I do not feel ready to start dating for real.. he was good company for meals out and for starting to feel human again after being wracked in despair in my relationship and subsequent breakups.
I have only just joined a dating site again a few days ago but have become very discerning and not falling for any of the old lines I previously fell for. I am not in a hurry at all either to be with someone.. which I was in the past. I am comfortable in my own skin these days and to be honest, I would rather stay single than end up with another disastrous and damaging relationship again.
I truly wish for all of you that you find the strength to do what is ultimately right for you. If that is to stay with your spouses/partners.. or to end it and begin your own lives again. If you do not share children then I would suggest that you put your needs first.
With love, light and blessings
HM
HI, this blog is wonderful as I find a lot of help reading other people’s posts and most of all Kim an Steve’s responses.
I am one of the unlucky ones who left (in desperation) before finding this site – I then tried to get back in contact and he waivered – he met me a few times and then would go off for weekends and I was so hurt we fought again.
1) Is there really nothing to be done once separation has occured? If anyone can think of the answer you guys can.
2) about things coming from outside feeding the ego when the narcissist is under strain I am kept so separate from everything and everyone in his life (we lived together for 2.5 yrs – friends, family, work colleagues – I met his mother once and am the only partner ever to do so and I really had to insist for this but was not allowed to phone her a year later when she was extremely ill with a stroke in hospital) how do I get anyone else involved? I don’t think his work colleagues of friends give a damn also he is rude offensive and belittling but not physically violent so it doesn;t sound so serious – his friends are q immature/mysogenistic and would just think I was being a girl. as he looks up to the wrong people I am struggling with a role model too.
Only things I can think of are – stressful job but he is successful at it, low sense of self esteem for being underdog in friendship group, father who hardly contacted him since he was 10 and mother who is tough and tried to always toughen him up show no weakness etc (Serbian born in Serbia in 1940 – a tough time).
3) currently he is delighting in hooking up with girls is this because I hurt him by leaving (or am I being narcissistic here!) if it is what can I do to change that – will he look down on me for being there for him? He seems to be feeling pretty on top of the world at the moment. Also if he is having a great time with all the girls and things with us were so bad will he not want to come back?
4) finally and a hard one I know, does he love me at all or just the role, weird one I know but is he able to love? (I mean right now not once all 4 legs have been tackled.)
We split up and I can’t undo that but have you any suggestions about moving forward or do I just have to leave it. PRob is now I know I can do something about things I really want to make it work!
Hi F,
These are all very hard questions to answer but I am close to finishing one of the best pieces I believe I have written which should be up at http://www.narcissismdailymirror.com/ in about 2 days from today.
It is something I believe will help everyone here and sorry that I have to make you wait!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi F
I was where you were last year.. I found this site when it really was too late as I had already sewn the seeds to split up once already and then had taken him back in an attempt to ‘make it work’ despite all that I knew I was up against.. or rather that I thought I was up against.
I did not know then though about NPD. By the time I had suspected that he was narcisstic, I had already intimated to him that it was over and our ’2nd chance’ was over.. in reality though this was not a 2nd chance but more likely a 4th or 5th one!
I can only speak from my own experience here and I can tell you that it WILL get easier once you UNDERSTAND why you think you may want him back. This is most likely down to your own co-dependency issues. It is a hard one to accept that in ourselves… that we have become dependent on them and that being treated badly or with little respect is something that we have come to live with and all that we know and although do not comprehend it half the time, it’s where we strangely and conversly feel safe.
Our self esteem is usually at rock bottom by the time we reach this point of understanding the N’s in our lives.
Read all that Kim and Steve have put together here, before you make any decisions to take him back or attempt to start up again, I cannot urge you strongly enough on that score.
I was weakened by the N in my life and I missed him sorely when we had split up.. I started to forget the bad times and the good times seemed to be uppermost in my mind. I know though that this is also normal grieving proceses when relationships come to a close, whatever the reason.. bereavement or splitting up. I even wondered as you would see from earlier posts that I was questioning myself and my decision to end it all the time. None of us like to think we are giving up on another and particularly when that person is someone we have loved and shared a life with.
Don’t forget though that they rely on us forgetting the bad times too and as they are not ever going to be accountable, and have very short memories, will not apologise to you for the pain they have caused you. They do not take kindly to accepting responsibility for their actions ever. IT is always going to be someone else’s fault .. someone else’s actions who caused them to behave that way or this way. It is frustrating enough that they will blame others but when its you that they are lashing out against, it is very hard to deal with.
Again though, I am speaking from my experience.. I do truly believe now that my N was beyond help. I think I got out at the last possible moment for my sanity’s sake and got a lucky escape.
I would not be human, if I did not say that yes, I still miss certain aspects of him in my life, we did have some good times.. but I have moved on and have healed immeasurably since ending the relationship and telling him why.
He keeps the door open to a certain extent by occasional texts, phone calls and also emails to me .. I am not sure what he is expecting of me in this..he has not ever suggested that we go back together though… mainly I think because he knows I am on to him and what is wrong with him and he will know that by me knowing, my friends (who became his friends by default of connection with me) will also now know of his problems. His fragile ego could not cope with that I know!
It is always about their status remember.. they will go to the end of the earth to make sure no one finds out their disordered mind and will incriminate you in the process or anyone else to prevent their secret being found out.
They are often highly intelligent individuals and often high achievers .. and have been in torment within themselves for years before finding you or me.. or any of us out there on this blog. But you must realse that you must not lose yourself in any of this. You must take care of yourself at all times and make sure that you are safe. They are very adept at turning everything around to be your fault remember.. you will be the one whose face they will try to paint with egg if it looks like they could be sprung.
I know that my ex since we split up has told his parents that it was me that was the problem.. and his friends also… do you know I never once met any of his friends in 2 years and like you, at my insistence his parents. My life became his life as my life and home provided him with the sort of status he needed to feel he was whole.
There are many common features here with our N’s and ex N’s .. they all have very similar traits and as a result all of our stories are similar. My ex N would not have committed a violent act towards me unlike my ex husband who was also an N.. but that does not make them any less dangerous to your wellbeing.. make no mistake about that! Verbal abuse is very damaging to your psyche, usually more so than phsyical abuse. Bruises and broken bones can heal, broken spirits and self esteem will take a lot longer and often not without specialist help.
My advice, although I am not really here to give that as it would be ethically incorrect for me to do so .. is to get as much help from here as you can and get on with your life.. heal yourself with self soothing and accept that an ending will be painful for a while.. it does all get better with time though. I can speak from experience there!
There are many good books out there (many are mentioned here on various blogs) to help you and as I have said above .. read Kim and Steve’s e books and listen to downloads, particulary the hypno session on co-dependency! I moved on in leaps and bounds from just listening to it once!
It is what has kept many of us sane on here! This blog was my lifeline! I am sure it will be yours too whilst you begin your healing processes and empowering yourself once again.
Good luck… we are all cheering you on!
Hi Kim is the article up yet – I can’t see it. What is it called? Thanks
I hope to get it finished today!
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
OK it is finally finished!
http://www.narcissismdailymirror.com/2011/01/narcissism-and-perfect-affair.html#comments
Kim Cooper
http://www.fightbusters.com
Hi Kim
A lot of soul searching is required on the behalf of the querent here.. but I do think that this article on Narcissicism and perfect love affair is right on track.
Thank you
HM
Hi I have not been on here in awhile. I had been working on the trust building with my boyfriend and it was working. His behavior got a lot better towards me. But I got really frustrated because although he was home (I was staying out at his place) he would refuse to give me any attention. He would sit and watch tv and if I asked him to spend any time with me he would get irritated and say he was too tired. But then whenever I went home, he’d stay out all night playing poker. Being ignored is a big button for me. I was ignored in my family of origin. I had a day where I “blew up” at him and raged. And I can’t believe the fall out from that. He has been so horrible to me, he did things I never thought he would do to me. So now I’m not sure if we are going to be together anymore, and I’m not sure if I want to be. But I think I have made things better by not abandoning and saying, “I never want to see you again.” I apologized for my own abusive behavior (though I have not gotten an apology from him or an acknowledgement that his abusive behavior was wrong.) I said I wanted to get together and talk and he said he was willing to, but we haven’t done that yet and now it seems he’s spending all his free time at poker. But I keep thinking about how nice it would be to have a relationship where the other person was kind and respectful toward me, and we could have fun together. I feel sick of doing this for him and not getting what I need emotionally. So for the time being I’m just kind of hanging out cleaning and organizing my house and thinking about what I need to do in own life to make it happier and more fulfilling. I’ve kind of made him my whole life, so I’m working on doing my own thing more. I am very proud that I’m not a wreck or crying all the time. I have cried a bit from feeling lonely but overall I’ve been doing pretty well. And I go back and forth between really enjoying the freedom I feel now, to wondering if we could ever really make it work and be happy together. I lost a lot of respect and trust for him recently with the way he treated me, so I’m not sure about any of it now.
Hi Kim,
Your article on Narcissism and The Perfect Love Affair is a great reminder of what we all must strive for to overcome our own narcissism/codependency traits in order to live our own life to the full.
I will write now in terms of myself – grammatically it makes it easier and most of all it is more soul searching for me. The only person who can be truly know and love me exactly for who I am – is me.
Thoroughly knowing myself, and being prepared to be totally candid & honest with myself about what I think & do, and accepting myself for who I am at any moment in time – “warts and all” – is essential for me to achieve my own goals in life and serenity. When I am being a pain in the butt then it is time for me to stop and take stock of why I am out of sorts. It is easy to get caught up in the hectic pace of life – but never really taking the time to stop and assess what I really need to restore myself to equilibrium and serenity. Sometimes I become overextended or too self-sacrificing to properly take care of myself and what I need.
Right now I am feeling so anxious I feel like throwing up too – I know what the problem is but I believe I am largely powerless over it. My husband internalises everything people do or say – he misconstrues what people are saying as a direct attack upon him – it is ALWAYS about him ACCORDING TO HIM – but it is rarely about him. People, including me, have to walk on eggshells – watching what they say in case they cause him to explode in a verbal tirade of abuse. Last night my husband related to a friend how our son is discrediting all my husband’s decades of experience in favour of the decades of experience of his new employer (in the same industry). Both my husband and our son’s new employer have both been successful in the business world, but my husband is envious of our son’s respect for his new employer, and fears losing our son to a new father figure. My husband’s defensive walls and intolerance toward my son are digging an even deeper rift between them – the opposite to what my husband wants. My son is now behaving like a full blown NPD too – trying to impress his father just the same as my husband tried to impress his father – by blowing things up to be bigger and better than what they are in reality. The competition between their unhealthy egos is sickening and the fallout was truly toxic – when underneath all their garbage and extremely low self worth – all they want is each others love & acceptance – but their foolish egos won’t allow them to become that vulnerable.
My daughter can see it so clearly too – we have a healthy mother/daughter relationship – we do have our differences – but we love and accept each other anyway. My husband has openly said he is jealous of the relationship I have with our daughter and son – and he even gives me a hard time about that! I am not going to feel bad about loving and respecting my daughter or my son. The chip on my husband’s shoulder is getting bigger and bigger all the time, and his distorted perspective of what people are doing or saying – and him believing it is all about him – is getting worse instead of better. His lack of trust in anyone is infathomable.
I have failed to build trust with him – in fact every time I have tried to build trust he runs like a rabbit. I am sure he hates me instead, he ostracizes and avoids me, moans under his breath (but just audibly enough for me to hear) if he has to wait momentarily for me to attend to things (even to go to the toilet or to have a drink of water!). He says he feels trapped, but whenever I make moves to separate our finances and working lives, he treats me with more contempt (provoking doubt and fear within me) – I suppose because I am taking control where he likes to be the one in control at all times. The emotional blackmail is obvious and extremely difficult to rise above to stay focussed on the bigger picture. What is the bigger picture – the goal? It is for us to restore functionality instead of dysfunctionality to our family. I believe part of what needs to happen is to downsize or close our business because I believe both my husband and I are burnt out, and the business has come first instead of family more and more over the years. So what is wrong with that belief? My husband is resistant and wants to work until he dies – him being a “business owner” is his “status” in the community. He wants me to work alongside him preserving that status – without him taking holidays with me – but for him to take holidays with his mates if and when he wants to. This is not what I had envisaged at this stage of our lives.
When he wanted to divorce two years ago he said we had grown apart – I foolishly thought we could work on the marriage and try to rekindle things – sadly I don’t think this is possible now. I would have loved us both to grow old HAPPILY together – but I can see that it would take a miracle for that to happen now – and I am tired of being the scapegoat for his unhappiness and every time something goes wrong! He must find his own inner peace and serenity in his own way and time – and I hope he does – with or without me. I hope he makes peace with our son and daughter, and learns the value of the slogan “Let it begin with me” and that our son & daughter truly want him to love and accept them. I believe it is a parent’s obligation to teach love and acceptance by example to their child – and not the other way around – no matter how old they are . Destructive criticism and sarcasm creates rifts and emotional scars. Kindness and understanding promotes love and acceptance.
To my husband – if you are reading this, please know that I do love you and I don’t want to leave you, but the signals I am getting from you are such that I am prepared to let you go – your happiness is as important to me as mine is to me. I do not understand why you have become so defensive and offensive, or are you afraid to get too close again in case one of us abandons you or dies too? Is it easier to let go if you don’t allow yourself to feel or express and show love towards us? Each time I have said that I am leaving I see the panic in your eyes – it is a rare moment when I can see your true attachment to me. I don’t say I want to leave just to see that look in your eyes – I say I want to leave because I believe maybe that is what is best for the both of us – I really don’t know what the answer is. You don’t have to be bigger and better than what you really are for us to love you. We don’t expect anything from you except for you to be yourself and to be good to yourself and others. I wish I could teach you to truly love and accept yourself, but that is only something you can do for yourself – as every other individual must do for themselves – including me. I wish you peace and happiness – whether we are together or apart.
CD.
Hi CD,
Nice to hear from you and sorry that it took me so long to approve you post as we have been on the road.
You cannot support your husband in his false pride or continue protecting him from his own bad behavior. You must get your finances separated whatever he feels about it or whatever happens. There needs to be one warning a then action in terms of the abuse and the ways he is probably breaking the law. If you business ends from that I am sure you are resourceful enough to still provide for yourself but I don’t think you can continue the way you have.
With the warning you need to let him know that it is time the truth comes out that he is not coping and it is time that things wind up. If he surrenders and lets you lead you might stand by him through that transition (if that is your wish) but if he won’t admit his own feelings of shame and inadequacy you can no longer support the lie.
In one sense I was very lucky that I was not dependent on Steve to support us financially. On the other however it has been like crawling up a cliff with my family on my back working to support us all. One way or other however life is a challenge enough without living to support their ego’s lie.
Hang in there CD – we are thinking of you.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi RD,
There is no shame if you are feeling it is time to move on from being mistreated. I had a lot invested with Steve – 3 kids for starters and everything to lose if I left.
You have learned so much about regulating your own emotions. Think now about what you want and are ready to accept for yourself?
I built a life raft for myself and the kids and was ready to sail. In my case Steve choose to drop his BS and come with me as I had shown him that
1. He could trust me.
2. That his old game was going to fall apart at the seams if he continued in his old ways and kept pretending the problem was all me.
Either way I was ready to take responsibility for myself and the kids. If he hadn’t dropped the BS I would have sunk his ship and set sail and he saw 100% I wasn’t bluffing in that. When faced with the choice of the truth coming out (with people he had been lying to about who he was) or him going to jail if he threatened me anymore (to keep me quiet) he choose to drop the game and let me lead.
So maybe I was the bigger bully?
Perhaps but in my case all I was threatening him with was me no longer protecting him from the consequences of his own bad behavior.
I share this because I really feel I need to make it clear how hard I had to fight to bring about that change. Self soothing is only one part of what I did and was not about making him love me more but about making me stronger to do the other things I needed to.
I called his work and after talking to them it wasn’t long before he was sacked. I had him charged with assault and called the police again even when he was on a bond which put him in danger of being thrown in jail.
He didn’t one day decide to be nice to me – instead he was a wild horse that I deliberately broke and tamed.
It isn’t easy to get that strong and if it wasn’t for my kids needing me I don’t know if I could have done that.
Anyway I think you deserve better than to be ignored and hope that this finds you doing something nice for yourself today (-:
Hang in there RD (-:
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi,
I just finished reading the last 2 posts and very seldom write, but thought I would share what I’ve learned. I’ve been married 16 years and am about the embark on a new journey of my own. My counselor recommended I check out NPD concerning my spouse.
For the last year we have been living as polite roommates and I have finally saved enough to file for divorce. My husband is married but lives as though he were single. The secrets, lies etc. have been hard to live with.
It was my lawyer who opened my eyes as I sat in her office crying. She asked me if I knew what the opposite of love was?
I thought I could make it work for a while, but then I realized how little self respect I had for myself by choosing to stay with someone who wanted to no part of me. I thought that by my spouse not seeking divorce himself, he still cared…. But that is not true. In some kind of twisted thinking on his part, I believe he has been doing all he could so I would finally say enough! I guess this makes me the bad guy.
The future looks scary, but change always does. I use to fear the emptiness and lack of sharing with another, but I have been living alone for years.
Thank you for listening.
Michelle
Hi Kim,
For the last two years I have tried to the best of my ability to work the four legged stool – and it has worked to a degree – but because my husband and I are extremely tied up in business – my hands have been tied in some respects to fully implementing the four legged stool because we are self-employed. I cannot talk to my husband’s employer because together we are his employer. If action is required in respect of our business (which I know there is – but it is difficult to prove to the authorities- he is so good at covering his tracks) then it is up to me to take that action – which in certain aspects I have already done so – but I and many others suffer terribly because of his temper tantrums – he makes us all “pay” whenever he is confronted – it is like he has no conscience about the misdemeanour or about what he does or says to me and others for being brought to account or exposed. I believe that his false-pride and lies are so deeply entrenched that even though I planned to win the battle I never will because he seemingly has no conscience – he wants what he wants and he wants it now with little or no consideration or empathy for others.
I realise I cannot change another person – I can only install boundaries and grow a backbone for myself – which I hope I have done. However being married to my business partner who apparently suffers from NPD has placed me in an awkward situation. I have been able to achieve some financial separation – but it is impossible to achieve it fully without shutting down the business and that means we are both out of work as it currently stands. I made the bold decision yesterday of enough is enough and we are going to see our accountant to shut the business down altogether which (instead of just downsizing in the hope that my husband may start to relax and become available again – as was Plan A for me). My husband has the option of starting up again on his own and I will also have to start up in my own right on my own. I could not see us operating our own businesses together under the same roof without there being some expectation that I would “just do this or that” for him when he wants it because I am conveniently handy and know what to do – it would be too easy for me to be exploited. I also can see that he has absolutely no respect or appreciation for me as his wife and life partner, nor what I have done over the years as a business partner. I could not stand one more night of trying to make conversation with him with him completely ignoring me, or misconstruing my words into some sort of attack upon him – he is so egotistical that he considers almost everyone is attacking him in some way – and he responds to many innocent conversations with hostility. From all of this I decided I have had enough and made a call – to shut down the business and end the marriage. My husband was OK with shutting down the marriage but wanted us to keep the business open and to continue signing up contracts for those jobs we are currently quoting – I said no because that would tie us up indefinitely and time is running out for me to slow down and enjoy life. I may also lose or partially lose my sight within the next 5-10 years. I cannot imagine that my husband would be devoted enough toward me to look after me if I were vision impaired – he is too self-centred where my needs are concerned. We have an appointment with our accountant tomorrow to start the long process of shutting down our business relationship. I don’t hold out any hope that this will produce any other results other than separation and divorce. I think after nearly 35 years of marriage it is time we moved on even though I believe in keeping families together – I cannot ignore his signals – I hope that our family will not be blown apart – but rather reconnect – with us ending the marriage – maybe too much to hope for since right now I don’t want anything to do with my husband – because in spite of everything – I still love him because I can see past the BS and defensive walls – but he is convinced I am the source of all his troubles, and there are so many people out there boosting his ego and he actively seeks them out – why would he want live with someone who seeks to burst his bubble?
CD
Hi CD,
I congratulate you on your courage and I believe you ending the business is definitely the right thing to do as this is where he has always had you cornered. As for you wanting a divorce – as I have always said – I believe this is a completely personal decision and I can definitely understand you feeling that way.
Do be careful however that when your husband is faced with losing his business (and business identity) and has no place to hide – because you have also withdrawn from the marriage – he may become even harder to deal with. The reason for this is that in this situation some will develop a nothing left to lose revenge type attitude and can be very dangerous.
I know that he has created this situation himself – but just be careful that you play it safe for your own sake and have your safety net in place of people to call in for support and protection.
It may also help for you to have “something up your sleeve” not as blackmail – but as insurance. You might warn him what will be the consequences of him continuing to blame and slander you. A video recording of one of his tirades or you remembering the details of something illegal he has done in the past may help protect you, but be certain that someone else holds this evidence for you so that you don’t make yourself even more of a target.
Maintaining his ‘bubble’ causes him incredible anxiety and it will burst by itself at some stage with or without your help. What you are doing now is removing yourself from going down with him when that happens and that is a very good move, but do remember and be careful because I am sure that he will try and take you down with him.
You are so much stronger now CD and you have worked so hard at becoming so – I really hope now is the turning point that you so richly deserve. You must play smart and you still must play to win as you have the rest of your life still in front of you!
Keep in touch and keep up the good work.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
Hi Kim,
Thank you so much for your words of wisdom and support – you have been my rock and I cannot thank you enough for the invaluable advice you have given me. I think I should maintain a low profile now as far as posting to this page goes regarding my story – I would like to be able to contact you though if the going gets rough but I have not had any success in emailing you on the address you gave me several posts ago
support@narcissismcured.com
Cheers
CD
Sorry that is not the right address, please try info@narcissismsupport.com and we will be looking out for your email.
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com
HM,
I just read your post and honestly it could have been me writing the same thing. The constant negative jabs at me are endless. I have tried to get away and have for a time but I always find myself back with him. I have no children with him so I should just leave. Know what bothers me the most though?? Did he ever love me, was he just stringing me along?? Qhwn we are apart he keeps the dor open but never, never really tries to get me back honestly. I just always make it easy for him, although he says he feels like a little boy crawling back to me. But.. he never really shows me how much he has missed me, or anything. Just an open door, not even a carrot if you know what I mean.
Is this typical and why am I sooo worried about being loved by him? Any answers? Thanks for your time.
Trisha
Perfect piece of work you have done, this web site is really cool with fantastic information.
Hi Kim. Thank you for the encouragement. My boyfriend and I did break up for real now. It was his doing, which I look upon as a gift from God, because I couldn’t leave him no matter how bad things got. I know he’s serious too because he cut my cell phone off (he was providing one for me.)
I’ve been having intense emotional pain since the breakup. He left without even saying goodbye. I had told him I would be his (supportive) friend but not his girlfriend because he was living as if he were unattached anyway by this point. One day he expressed a desire to be friends and was very nice to me, and then we spent a very nice day together “as friends.”
But the next time he came over, he was sullen and angry when he walked in the door, and was ignoring me, playing a video game on his cell phone, so I gave him some space and went outside for awhile and smoked a cigarrette, and when I came in, he was still doing the same thing, so I tried to talk to him about something, and he snapped nastily, “hold on a second!”
And I wasn’t comfortable being treated as if a video game high score was more important than me, so this time I just kept talking and he started yelling at me for “ruining his high score” (this is a 45 year old man) and then I attempted to say that it wasn’t okay with me that he was acting as if that were more important that what i had to say, and he yelled, “if you’re going to START I’m leaving!” And I yelled, “Good because I don’t like being around you when you act like this!”
Then he stormed out, stopped calling me, and then 3 weeks later shut off me and my son’s cell phones that he was paying for. Then he put his life insurance in somebody else’s name and told his mother he was thinking about moving to Alaska.
What started this trouble was the fights about him not being willing to spend any time with me. We had several bad fights, and then we had one where I actually “won” a fight for the first time ever, by being mean about the truth about him.
I still have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, I don’t like to hurt people, but on the other hand, he had been hurting me for so long, and he was hammering and hammering at me during this fight and then he said, “You think you’re better than everyone else, don’t you?, that’s you’re thing.”
And I said, “yep, that’s right.”
And he said, “you probably think I’m stupid, don’t you?”
And I said, “Yes I do because you can’t even see the looks on my son’s and his girlfriend’s faces when you’re going on and on about yourself and they just want to get away. People don’t want an “orator” and “an audience” they want a back and forth conversation. And EVERYONE can see it but YOU!”
And he took major offense to this, after saying the most hurtful things you can imagine to me for a year and a half, and not caring if I cried or he hurt me, and when HIS feelings get hurt, he dumps me. I think that’s kind of funny and at the same time it really sucks.
He promised me so much, he said I was the only girl he’s ever loved (we were first loves when I was 17 and he was 19) and that he would never abandon me, that if he was not happy or found someone else, he would tell me and leave amiably, that he would warn me if he was going to cut off the phone, etc. etc.
He just seems like such a liar now. Like all of it was a lie and he never cared about me, except to be his “security blanket” while he went out and got his “excitement” somewhere else.
Anyway, he’s gone now and I’m both relieved and experiencing intense emotional pain over it. I really did come to love him during that time, even though he was abusive.
I have all of your original e-books, and I showed them to my counselor at domestic violence, and she looked it over and her response was “you can’t change another person.” And that makes sense to me. At the same time, I can’t help feeling this would be such a great treatment model for domestic violence. It’s like a mass intervention involving the community.
I didn’t do all of the program, and I never got good at self soothing. But I did try to call the police on him one night when he hit me, and he grabbed my cell phone (there was no other phones at the house besides his cell, which he had too I don’t know how to use.)
But I was definitnely going to call! Well, he pretended to call the police on me on the phone, and I thought he really did, and it backfired on him because I wasn’t afraid. I said, “fine, I’ll talk to them and tell them!” and he kept trying to scare me, but I just gathered up my stuff and said I would ask the police to bring my stuff.
And he said something about all those scary hardened women I’d have to be in jail with and I said, “I’m not scared. I get along well with most people these days.”
And when he finally had to admit he had made it up, I was so angry, I started walking home, even though there was no bus and I saw him just put his head in his hands, struggling, something I’ve never seen in him be3fore. It seemed his plan backfiring to manipulate me and frighten me made him have to face something in himself.
Another time, I called his step-father for help when my bf was raging at me and scaring me, and my bf was so angry I had done that. He ended up calling his mother later and playing “the nice guy” asking about his step-sister’s husband, when I know from experience he doesn’t really care about that and usually just avoids those type of phone calls, but he called specifically to manipulate the situation and make me look bad and him look good.
And later I found out the step-dad was abusive himself and does not consider emotional abuse to be abuse. So he just said, “maybe you two should just be friends.”
But before my bf disappeared, he cited my being willing to call the police and his parents as evidence that he “can’t trust me” and then he said he felt “scarred” by the comments I made about how he can’t see that other people don’t like just listening to him, they like a back and forth conversation, as reasons that he “didn’t love me the same way anymore.”
And he said I was going to have to “earn his love back” and there was NO WAY i was going to do that. That is complete b.s.
So now he’s gone and thinking about moving away, and I’ve been having such a hard time with emotional pain every morning, sometimes it’s hard to bear.
And then I got angry and thought “he’s trying to break me” and so I thought NO WAY. But then I thought how I don’t like being an angry person. And I just feel really confused.
But one thing I want to do is really learn your program because I’m sure that I’ll need it again sometime with some situation and I know I need to learn how to self-soothe and be independent of other people, and all kinds of things. And who knows, if we are ever back together one day, I want to know the program thoroughly, and be prepared so he doesn’t just get to abuse me and lie and scream and get away with all that.
At the same time, I think, “I need to let go of this person. I am just holding on by thinking he’s going to come back.”
But at least I didn’t go chasing someone who was abusing me. I’m proud of not chasing him or re-initiating contact. I’m not sure if I ever want to try and do this for him, but I still want to learn it for me, because my emotional issues and low self esteem make me a target for bullying.
You know what I don’t understand? Is it right or is it wrong to fight back with meanness when someone’s being mean to you? I never did that as a child and ended up getting bullied all the time.
But the last time my boyfriend called me “thunder thighs” and said my ass was huge (he didn’t like me gaining weight), I said, “well you don’t look as good as you used to either. You used to be all muscley and now you have skinny arms and a beer belly and when the wind blows the hair off your bald spots, that doesn’t look too great either.”
He had just been so mean, and I had told him it hurt my feelings when he made negative comments about my body, and he didn’t care. So I got mad and gave him a taste of his own medicine. And he did not like it.
So why is that bad? Why is it bad to fight back with meanness? he just takes advantage of my morals that “it’s not right to talk that way to someone.” And that did shut him up.
Sincerley,
RD
I am having a really hard morning. The longer he is gone, the more I have to face what’s not working in my life and it’s so hard to face. Now I remember why I “threw caution to the wind” and jumped into a relationship with him. I am having feelings of hating my life and feeling very “disorganized” or something in my “okayness.”
I don’t know what I want out of life and I really wish sometimes I had a safe place and someone (else) to take care of me. It’s so hard confronting that it’s going to have to be ME. Sometimes I’m all right and I even feel excited about the prospect. But sometimes I just feel so exhuasted, defeated, and I feel so compeletely my own misery that living doesn’t even sound good. Not that I’m going to commit suicide or anything. Maybe I’m just feeling depressed or self pity. I just don’t want to do this today. But I’ll go and try to do some things to help myself that I know work/help. Usually by afternoon I’m doing all right but mornings often start with me feeling a ton of pain. Usually it’s about him, but today it’s about my life. No wonder I loved the distraction so much of being in such a crazy relationship. Worrying about him kept me occupied night and day.
I am 47 years old and my extremely npd mother lives next door to my family I am at my wits end every coversation is turned into some kind of twisted contest by this woman anything that goes wrong for her become something to fly into a rage at me and blame me for even if i had nothing to do with it and in no way could have prevented it . She treats me live a slave expecting me to be at her beck and call and if i have anthing else to do another rage results. even though though I have a wonderful family of my own and am successful I am constantly belittled and and run down and compared with others who are quote “better” I find evey conversation with this woman emotionally draining as i must be constantly on guard. Yet despite all i love her and the bible instruct i must honor her this is very difficult for me i need to know how to deal with her thank you
Hi Bob and anyone else reading here – this blog has wound down now and
you will find a lot more help and info at http://www.narcissismdailymirror.com/
Hang in there – Learning to stand up to our parents can be the hardest.
Kim Cooper
http://www.stopthefights.com
Hi RD,
I am sorry that I only approved these posts of your now and didn’t get back to you. I have been on holidays visiting my mother in law and this blog doesn’t get so much traffic now. I hope that you are OK and that you are staying focused on your own life and goals.
There is a lot more activity on http://www.narcissismdailymirror.com/ and lots of articles that might find meaning in.
Hang in there RD!
Kim Cooper
http://www.stopthefights.com
Hi RD
Boy you sure sound like me. I did the meaness too and it sure felt good until I thought wait a minute I am no better than him. I then would feel guilty about what I said to a point, because like you I am hurt and had had enough. Well I feel that no matter what, I have me, I like me, I love me, and God loves me. So there, there are worse things than lossoing someone who cannot be nice or even respectful. Think of it this way, you can find someone to be nice to you at Walmart, the greeter for instance, so why put up with junk from someone who supposably loves you. You did good.
Trisha
Ok, this is Jennie, again:) I am in my final semester of college, and moving to a university. I have been in dialectical behavioral therapy for the last year. I want to be a strong person, and a better person. I have written on here a lot. My life has been really well. I have read books by Kevin Leman and Gary Chapman. Now, David, is back. Why can’t I have enough self-control to let go. I am emotionally tired with him, and I feel empty. I play the part, but I really don’t know what I feel. I feel tired of him, and question the point to staying. We haven’t fought at all, nor do I intend to. I have multiple resources that I have learned from to stop the heavy and horrid fights. He is irresponsible, and lazy. I find myself questioning is there better out there then this. Underneath all of the crap, I do love him, but what happens when I graduate and I make 10-15$ more an hour than him? I intend to finish my degree, and I have goals for myself and my children. I love him, so I stay. He has had sex with a few girls since this has all played out, and I am tired of it. The huge break-ups and the relieving make-ups. He is cold and he is hot, like the song yes and no, right when wrong. I would break-up with him, but I am not emotionally ready. However, I don’t know if I can stay because I want to be emotionally ready to leave, and not look back. Please help, I have had enough rejection, lies, new girlfriends, hurtful comments, and many other yucky things. I have read your books and purchased them as I have read many books. The fighting has ceased, and we get along. I just don’t know if I want to stay, but I don’t want another huge break-up to just have a make-up. I feel stagnant and comfotable lately. Like why leave, feeling easy and knowing what to expect and how to respond is better than thinking the grass is greener on the other side with a new narcissist. At least, the relationship easy just empty. What is this, is it nothing or do I need to be concerned? If I leave now, I will get a guilt trip about how I always abandon hin him , her the the judgment in that, always. LOL. He is not friendly or nice or giving, but at least I don’t fight with him. This Jennie, same situation, no change well just me and being empty and disappointed in this whatever.
Sorry Jennie I don’t have much advice for you except to follow your heart and try and feel when the time is right for you to move on. Or I guess the other idea might be to challenge him to some kind of competition and see if he takes the bait?
Kim Cooper
http://www.narcissismcured.com